The Rubashkin Point Of View, Part 2

Posted below is a video of Getzel Rubashkin, a son of Sholom M. Rubashkin and a grandson of Aaron Rubashkin. Getzel discusses his family's view of the Immigration raid and its aftermath.

As you watch this…

…remember that the US Government seized almost 100 fraudulent IDs, some attached to workers' documents, some found stacked on a desk in the Agriprocessors' Human Services department; that Agriprocessors received the largest fines ever in the history of Iowa workplace safety enforcement; that cild laborers as young as 13 were arrested during that raid; that its owners have repeatedly violated Humane Slaughter law, EPA regulations, and OSHA regulations; that Agriprocessors received 500 warning letters from the Social Security Administration telling the company that employee social security numbers did not match living Americans; etc.

And then ask yourself what type of sociopath can stand up in front of thousands of people (through television, of course) and lie about all of it.

That is exactly the Rubashkin pattern. Aaron does it. Moshe does it. Sholom M. does it. Getzel does it.

These people are sociopaths who truly believe they have done no wrong, even when caught red handed. In their minds, they are never guilty, and it is the Other – the press, the police, the EPA, OSHA, PETA, etc., who are truly to blame.

Can sociopaths like this be trusted to produce kosher meat?

I would say no.

That the OU, Wiessmandal, UMK, and so many other kosher supervisors and Orthodox rabbis disagree is as much a comment on the devaluing of truth in Orthodoxy as it is about the character of those rabbis.

Comments

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/07/21/news/01raid21.txt

Rabbi Shalom Gurkov, a Hasidic Jew like the owners of Agriprocessors, standing on the main street in Postville in his long beard and solemn dress, vigorously disputing the accusations of crimes, inhumane treatment and sexual harassment that have been made by former workers.

Abe Bistritzky, a friend of the Rubashkin family, agreed to talk to the Star Tribune on behalf of the company, which has declined to comment since the raids. He said the illegal workers used fake documents and the company followed the law in verifying paperwork. Most of the workers were happy to have the jobs and were paid and treated fairly, he added.

The Rubashkins “took a town that had balls of hay rolling in it and they built up a community of approximately 120 Jewish families,” Bistritzky said. “They built a yeshiva, a Jewish school for kids,” gave money to the city, to charity and recently sent food to flood victims.

“The Rubashkin family is charitable. They’re not prejudiced; they’ll hire any kind of person, anyone who will walk through the door,” Bistritzky said. “What happened was when (Jews) came to town, they looked at us like we’re Martians. ... They didn’t understand the black coats, the white shirts, the beards, the black hats, and they needed to learn about us.“

The situation at Agriprocessors reveals “a lack of respect of human dignity of people other than you,” Ouderkirk said. “Politicians who should have been leading the way did nothing.”

Bistritzky dismisses most of the worst accusations as fabrications.

“I can’t vouch for what happened over 18 years,” Bistritzky said. “But maybe (the Rubashkins) should have put a little bit more emphasis to reacting maybe to the town. Maybe they had a lack of communication with people.”

[Archie Bunker]

CBS has a video interview with Chaim Abrahams. What kind of foreign accent is that or is he one of those American-born fools that thinks it's cool to manufacture his own haymish-sounding accent?

[Shmarya]

I posted it yesterday.

He's Israeli, I think.

[Plink Plink Plunk]

What happened was when (Jews) came to town, they looked at us like we’re Martians. ... They didn’t understand the black coats, the white shirts, the beards, the black hats, and they needed to learn about us.

Most JEWS don't understand the dressing-up-like-Poles/Lithuanians fetish either.

[Archie Bunker]

ANother PR coup for Agri. WHy make an Israeli with a heavy accent and imperfect English their face to the world?

[Archie Bunker]

How absurd. Are they trying to blame Empire or Alle?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gPTbcw3PrMnPkSg3Pd2IYYetk-MwD926ONUG0

Getzel Rubashkin, an Agriprocessors employee and a member of the family that owns it, said it was unfair to blame his family and Agriprocessors for the raid and theorized that unspecified competitors and enemies of the plant were behind the enforcement action.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080727/NEWS/807270337/1001

Union organizer Jerry Messer said the Agriprocessors plant has the worst working conditions he has ever seen. Messer's union, the United Food and Commercial Workers, has been trying to organize the plant. He called for criminal charges against members of the Rubashkin family, who own the company.

When asked for a response, Menachem Lubinsky, a consultant representing Agriprocessors, said Messer should not be calling for such charges. "It's not his call. In this country, those things are based on evidence."

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331103683&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

This is really too much. Shlomo Riskin is now going out on a limb in this letter to the Jerusalem Post saying that Rubashkin is now acting in the manner of kiddush Hashem.

[Archie Bunker]

Agence France Presse report:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j9I_ty9Pc3E6nBPTJC9cbtQtfyqg

Postville police said the town's relatively quiet evenings are a thing of the past. Now, they regularly respond to calls of public intoxication and drunken brawls on Friday nights.

[Yochanan Lavie]

What kind of foreign accent is that or is he one of those American-born fools that thinks it's cool to manufacture his own haymish-sounding accent?

Archie, like me I'm sure you have met many American born chassidim who can barely speak English and have a Yiddish accent. (Not all, but it's appalling to me that many are like that).

I am losing more and more respect for the Modern Orthodox Rabbinate thanks to Rubbishcan. Does Stevie Riskin say this because he is willfully naive enough to believe it? Or is he nervously looking over his right shoulder, wanting approval from the "real" Orthodox? Instead of being fitted for Cohanim garments, Stevie should be fitted for a straight-jacket.

[John K. Diamond]

The question we might want to start asking ourselves is: "What happens if the Rubashkins are not arrested?"

[Archie Bunker]

Try not to laugh

http://www.agriprocessor.com/agriprocessors_jewish_values/agriprocessors_code_of_conduct.php

Agriprocessors, Inc. Code of Conduct

[Archie Bunker]

Is this playing hard to get or something?

http://www.agriprocessor.com/agriprocessors_opportunities/Workforce_Recruitment_and_Composition.php

On days when Agriprocessors interviews new potential employees, applicants are lined up and waiting to fill the available positions.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Now, they regularly respond to calls of public intoxication and drunken brawls on Friday nights.

Sounds like Rutgers Chabad House. Maybe it's the Fabringens.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

The quality of your analysis never ceases to amaze. If I may remind you, "The seal of G-d is truth." I spoke nothing but the truth - and you? Evidently you choose to be among those misrepresenting and distorting.

[John K. Diamond]

I've looked at both of these, Archie, and it was difficult not to laugh.

But I'll just have to have two libations of George Dickel Bourbon (Oh, sorry: Sour Mash Tennessee Whisky) when I go home today.

[Archie Bunker]

Getzel, vos hert zich?

America is a medinah shel chesed and as such does not go around planting false evidence to frame people. How do you deny all evidence gathered by Federal agents? The evidence sounds solid enough that even Jim Martin and fetter Milton can't get you off the hook this time.

And what about mashgichim who have confided to Rabbi Yudel Shain about all the kashrus violations?

Learn the posuk "midvar sheker tirchok" before you open up your pisk.

[Archie Bunker]

Or maybe "Getzel" is Engelmayer, who actually has permission for once to impersonate somebody.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

A) No one claimed false evidence was planted. As a matter of fact,
B) No one has presented any evidence at all at this point. Look up the word "evidence" before you open up your pisk, even in pseudo-Yiddish.

Have you ever heard the term "straw-man argument?"

PS It is very rude to imply that I am lying about my identity, as if I am somehow incapable of speaking my mind. But have no fear - I am sure Shmarya is tracing IP addresses as we speak. You'll hear about it if I'm Engelmayer.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Lies of a Clown (apologies to Smokey Robinson)

Now if there's a smile on my face
It's only there trying to fool the goyim
But when it comes down to fooling Jews
Now Motek that's quite a different ploy, man
But don't let my "honest" expression
Give you the wrong impression
Really I'm bad, oh I'm badder than bad
I'm caught and I'm in trouble bad
Like in Clown Heights, I pretend to be glad

Now there's some bad things at Rubbishcan
But ain't too much sadder than
The lies of a clown, when the press is around
Uh hum, oh yeah bubbeleh

Now if I appear to be carefree
It's only to camouflage exploitation
And motek to shield my crimes I try
To cover this guilt with a show of elation
But don't let 5W convince you
That I've been honest since U.S.
Decided to prosecute,
I need to insulate
My crimes against underage workers
But for "Others" I put on tearjerkers, ooh yeah

{repeat CHORUS}

Just like Meyer Lansky did
I try to keep my surface Yid
Smiling in the public's face
But in my lonely plant I disgrace
The laws of the Torah
When there's no open gemorra, oh yeah, bubbeleh

Now if there's a Postville disgrace
Don't let my "glatt" expression
Make you think we are mentschen
Don't let this smile I wear
Make you think that I really care
When really they're goyim…
I’m gonna annoy 'em……

[Archie Bunker]

Uh huh, so fake green cards in the Agri HR office are "false rumors"?

What about recordings that come from secret wires planted on Federal informants?

You also do not address the kashrus issues like mashgichim confiding to outside rabbonim and why Khal Adas Yeshurun pulled out.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I guess you have *not* heard of the term "straw-man argument." To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.

You asked me if I deny the "evidence" and I pointed out that there was no evidence. The two pieces of information you are challenging with tell me you did not take my advice to look up the definition of "evidence."

I have not heard any of the recordings, and neither have you. The inaccuracies in the federal affidavit are well documented and it does not amount to evidence.

I still don't understand the "fake documents in the HR department" argument. Once it has been established that workers submitted false papers that is exactly where I would expect to find them. That is where employee submitted documents are processed, presumably.

I failed to address KAJ because you failed to bring it up. If memory serves, they clearly stated that their leaving was not because of Kashrus violations.

I failed to address unnamed mashgichim confiding in Yudel Shain because, unlike many on this blog, I have a habit of not commenting on matters with which I am not familiar. I trust the Koshrus certifying agencies are doing their job.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie wrote: Shlomo Riskin is now going out on a limb in this letter to the Jerusalem Post saying that Rubashkin is now acting in the manner of kiddush Hashem.

Stevie Riskin just came out with his own version of Stevie Wonder's "Superstitious"

Shlomo's superstitious, writing's in the Post
Sholmo's superstitious, Rubbishcan bout' to boast
Uri L'Tzedek, broke the boycott fast
Many years of bad practices, but now it's in the past

When you believe in things that you don't understand
Then we suffer
Superstition ain't the torah way

Rubbishcan's atrocious, wash their guilty hands
Exonerate their problems, protect the Rubbishclan
Keep us in a daydream, keep lies goin' strong
You don't wanna save us, sad is our song

When you believe in lies that Shmuley don't understand
Then we suffer
Supposition ain't the way, oy vey

Shlomo's superstitious, nothin' more to say
Shlomo's superstitious, the DA's on his way
5WPR, broke the ethics rules
Many years of bad press, don't treat us like we're fools

When you believe in things that we cannot abide
Then your rep suffers
Supposition ain't the way, no, no, no

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, my question is--at a certain point a family that has adopted essentially illegal means to sustain a licit business (I take a 55-75% illegal workforce as defacto evidence of a knowing criminal hiring practices wherever along the 0--no evidence to 10--we have the videotapes and the ID counterfeiting presses spectrum, other evidence falls) comes across opportunities that go the other way, exploiting the business to leverage criminal activities unrelated to that business. Typically Italian families started illegal, formed a supporting infrastructure of legit enterprises and then went back and forth--but those delis and casinos and restaurants and trash haulers and pavers were going concerns even as they were skimmed or "busted out" or violated health and safety codes etc.;

so, Getzel, you there yet? Any temptations to commercial shatnez?

[Yochanan Lavie]

This just in:

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/2008072820080728postvillehearing.html

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/109669.html

Whatever one thinks of immigration policy, it is the law of the land.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, btw, if memory servs those fake documents were in the nature of "blanks" as in, oh, let's say, ID's for non-Hispanic workers in the stages of being reprepped and recirculated--that is the seized false IDs didn't come from the workers who were seized with the altered versions--but this is a minor point, no business ends up with an illegal workforce because it was fooled by wiley wascally amigos from south of the border

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul,
A British author known as Rebbeca West once said "There is no such thing as conversation. It is an illusion. There are intersecting monologues, that is all"

It is an apt epigraph for this blog.

When you are willing to try out that strange thing known as dialogue, which requires an openness or interest in another's knowledge or perspective, let me know.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, you are a well-read fellow but it doesn't get you beyond the obvious point: multiple government charges against a succession of Rubashkin enteriprises and a workforce of undocumented workers--I would be interested in any scenario from anywone as to how any labor management with even minimal commitment to observing this country's immigration laws ends up with a workforce that is minimally half undocumented, misdocumented, and non-English speaking--to the degree that a single raid halves the workforce. What is there to dialogue about?

I work in the real world--I know how documents are checked or not checked. I appreciate articulate PR when I come across it. But I also appreciate businesses not wantonly dumping toxic waste in factory shells and then abandoning them. We may have been born yesterday but it was in the morning.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

I did not read part 1 of this post and now that I have I can see that Archie is in good company. Shmarya chose to describe me as the company spokesperson even though I clearly indicated that I was not.

Paul, I did not see a reference to blank cards.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, the workforce, the EPA charges, etc. speak for themselves. You need to dialogue with the realities not your critics.

[John K. Diamond]

You seem to be a very intelligent person, Getzel, and very well read, etc.

That's nice.

But we need you to explain to us why Chief Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen and former Chief Rabbi David Rosen, who both viewed the PETA videos in 2004, gave written statements that the shechita at Agri, as captured in those videos, was invalid.

Please don't respond implying that the videos were doctored or that these Rabbis were lying.

That would not be becoming from someone as well read and cultured as you appear to be.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel, ps if memory serves the feds found a cache of cards before they were assigned to Hispanic workers. But, again, the workforce speaks for itself. "Everyone does it" is not enough cover here.

[Archie Bunker]

Part of what Getzel is trying to do is uphold the strictest literal interpretation of guilt. According to this measure, OJ Simpson is not guilty because he was "acquitted". Surely, Getzel never opined that OJ was anything but "innocent".

Again, when you are open to the possibility that there may be something to discuss, let me know. Until then we are firmly in the realm of intersecting monologues.

I also work in the real world. It is a world in which conjecture is of limited value to those interested in the facts and the purpose of investigation is not only to satisfy legal technicalities but to establish the facts.

As the Kuzari and countless defenders of our faith have articulately stated, sheer volume is not a replacement for quality, especially not the quality we call truth.

On the other hand, such luminaries as Stalin advocated repetition as a substitute for facts, so the position is not without its defenders.

I am not saying what those facts are, so spare me the straw army, folks. The facts will be established with time. Until then there is little concrete information on which to build gallows.

[Shmarya]

Getzel –

First of all, It's nice, even under these circumstances, to hear from you. You were always a nice kid. So was Meir Simcha, but he used to head butt everyone.

You wrote:

The quality of your analysis never ceases to amaze. If I may remind you, "The seal of G-d is truth." I spoke nothing but the truth - and you? Evidently you choose to be among those misrepresenting and distorting.

And then your wrote:

I still don't understand the "fake documents in the HR department" argument. Once it has been established that workers submitted false papers that is exactly where I would expect to find them. That is where employee submitted documents are processed, presumably.

The documents were blanks, waiting for names to be added in, and this is mentioned in the arrest warrants for your two supervisors arrested about three weeks ago.

You dismiss all negative reports as unproven, much in the way 5WPR and Lubinsky called PETA's charges unproven, even though the USDA found your family's business violated Humane Slaughter law.

But to agree your family is blameless, at the very least we all must believe the following:

1. Dozens of state and federal officials are lying.

2. Dozens of former Agri workers are lying.

3. Current Agri workers are lying,

4. State findings against Agriprocessors were trumped up.

5. Fedral findings against Agriprocessors wer trumped up.

6. Catholic clergy and laypeople are lying.

7. Every non-Orthodox rabbi who has visited Postville is lying.

8. Dozens of newspaper and other media reporters are lying.

This type of bizarre conspiracy theory may be believable inside Chabad or haredi communities but it doesn't fly in the outside world.

Try this for a change:

1. Tell the truth.

2. Treat your employees with respect and dignity and follow all state and federal laws. Do this in a completely transparent way.

That's not too much to ask from people who claim to be religious, now is it?

[Archie Bunker]

Perhaps Getzel only saw the 2nd letter that KAJ released to the public. There was an earlier letter written to his zaydie that clearly states Agriprocessors is being booted for kashrus violations. This letter was later leaked to Rabbi Shain.

It was pretty disgusting how Sholom Rubashkin & Lubinsky rushed out after the "official" letter was released to imply that they were giving the boot to KAJ when the opposite was true.

[Archie Bunker]

"I also work in the real world."

If the most dangerous & filthy slaughterhouse in the world is the "real world" then we are really in trouble.

[Paul Freedman]

Getzel--I went back, and you are correct. There was not a reference to blanks and I did missstate the evidence of company cul[pability found at the HR office. The IDs were not being scrubbed and reassigned, they were being forged. What was directly implicative of knowing management policy would be the statements of the workers, the direct involvemen of vetted Agriprocessor line supervisors, and the "stacks" of forged IDs found separated from any applicable paper work (the inference: before handed out to workers by HR):

------

Postville, Ia. – Federal agents who raided the Agriprocessors meatpacking plant here in May found evidence that the company’s human-resources department helped provide false immigration documents to its workers, court papers say.

The agents said they found stacks of fraudulent resident-alien cards in the human-resources department. Most of the cards, also known as green cards, appeared to have been made by the same forger, the court papers say.

The green cards were discovered during the May 12 raid at Agriprocessors, in which 389 workers were arrested. Most of the workers were charged with using false identities to obtain jobs.

Prosecutors filed the court papers this month to support criminal charges against an Agriprocessors supervisor, Juan Guerrero-Espinoza, who oversaw the beef kill department. He and another supervisor were charged with aiding the use of fraudulent identity documents and encouraging aliens to reside illegally in the United States. Guerrero-Espinoza also faces one count of aiding and abetting identity theft.

The plant’s owners and top executives have not been charged in the case, but court documents indicate a federal grand jury continues to look into the matter.

Immigration agents said in court papers that several former plant workers who were in the United States illegally said Guerrero-Espinoza told them that if they gave him $200 to $220 and a photograph of themselves, he would provide them with resident-alien cards. The workers also told authorities that a human-resources employee, identified as “Subject A,” also was involved in procuring the false cards.

Agents searched the human-resources department and found dozens of forged resident-alien cards, court papers say. Some of them were attached to application paperwork, but others were in stacks.

Workers told investigators that the human-resources employee handed them their fraudulent immigration cards. Workers also told investigators that plant supervisors, including Guerrero-Espinoza, were in a rush to get immigration papers for workers because they feared the plant would be raided.

A spokesman for Agriprocessors said Saturday that the company is not commenting on any matters that are part of the federal investigation. He said that the company is cooperating with the investigation, and that it is working to comply with all regulations.

[Paul Freedman]

Archie,

?

I work in the real world where employment documents can be checked so that an employer can have a legal workforce in a safe and legal business environment--that part of the real world as opposed to the world of appearances presented by PR the world over--

filthy slaughterhouses are real in the real world and in the real world they don't happen accidentally but by policy

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul,
Charges do indeed speak for themselves. All they speak of are accusations, which by definition can be challenged and responded too.

If this blog is not the only thing on your reading list you will recognize that realities are commonly interpreted in different ways, placed in different contexts. Dialogue, as a human endeavor, will always be about those interpretations and context. As you seem to have been saying before, one cannot argue, or dialogue, with facts.

Again, I did not see a reference to blank cards.

Paul @ 12:04 and the following post by Archie: Please. I find straw-man arguments insulting. I know I sound repetitious but I'm working with what you give me.

As far as John Diamond is concerned, I am not a Rabbinical authority. The Kosher certifiers in this plant are. If you, or anyone else disagrees with them, your argument seems to be with them. I am not a spokesperson for this company but I do know that they comply with their certifiers even at great cost/loss.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya states something misleading about Chabad & Charedi circles. There are only sub-groups within those groups that believe the conspiracy crap from Rubashkin & Lubinsky.

There are many Chabad & Charedi rabbis who tell their followers not to eat Rubashkin for various reasons, be they kashrus, safety, etc.

I recently learned that a distinguished rabbi in the Bobover movement has joined their ranks.

[Paul Freedman]

Shmarya could be referring above to additional reports.

Gretzel, I don't see where you think you are going. The "sheer volume" here is not of conjecture or speculation but direct, tangible evidence of criminal behavior. This isn't just "where there's smoke there's fire", that ship left the dock a whiles back--the building is gutted, noxious barrels are leaking waste into the basement and the workforce is being perp-walked into the detention center. This is what, a huge misunderstanding, an accident, alien conspiracy?

Well, there are aliens.

I'm publishing a blog called failedsongwriter.com. I got some really cool scotty stories to share with the world. Launching soon.

[Paul Freedman]

Gretzel, not just accusations. There were arrests and deportations, no? Rubashkin management settled with the EPA and so confirmed their responsibility for pollution, etc. There are hiriing standards and practices routinely deployed by those who don't wish to exploit an undocumented work force to end up with a documented work force. The cross-correlation of reportage, accusations, worker statements, filmed practices, and, additionally, Federal accusations presents an extraordinary high barrier to challenge that general statements of epistemological certainty or open-mindedness fail.

[John K. Diamond]

[I am not a Rabbinical authority. The Kosher certifiers in this plant are. If you, or anyone else disagrees with them, your argument seems to be with them.]

Fascinating !!!!

Then the Kashrut authorites at Agri need to explain how "dead animals can walk" or "walking animals are dead."

[Paul Freedman]

Gretzel, expand the reading list as large as Borges' library, Pontiius Pilate and Wittgenstein won't help you out here.

[Getzel Rubashkin]

Paul: Thank you for correcting your statement. That forged documents were submitted is not news.

Cards stacked in a pile is the reality. Your inference is interpretation. It will have its day in court, and until then anything you or I say about it is not evidence or implication.

Statements of workers also have requirements based upon which to establish the veracity and accuracy before they graduate to the status of fact. This system exists not to employ lawyers, but in recognition of the fact that the truth must be ascertained.

When discussions like this take place, and the point is made that much of this is misrepresentation, allegations and rumors, the impression is that the company claims to be perfect. This impression is then spread and ridiculed. Did I mention the straw man argument?

This is a position I have never seen nor heard from the company itself. As a matter of fact, when issues arise the company addresses them. The much-publicized recent OSHA inspection, which resulted in reduced fines is an example of this. Of course, this is then portrayed as the government in bed with the company, when in fact this is common practice at OSHA. They suggest maximal fines and then reduce those fines based on cooperation and response. This has been articulated by OSHA themselves.

And finally, filthy and dangerous slaughterhouses result not from policy, Paul, but from nature. Slaughter is filthy and dangerous work.

[Shmarya]

Cards stacked in a pile is the reality. Your inference is interpretation. It will have its day in court, and until then anything you or I say about it is not evidence or implication.

BLANK cards waiting for names, Getzel. ILLEGAL cards. All in a stack in your HR office.

As fro the rest of what you write, it's BS.

You have perhaps the worst safety record in Iowa. You CHARGE employees for necessary safety equipment.

What is your job with Agriprocessors, Getzel?

[steve]

Inference? Articulated? Since when did Chabad institute vocabulary and grammar as part of their curriculum? I'm impressed.

[Archie Bunker]

Is Getzel auditioning for a spot at 5W or Lubicom?