Rabbi Shlomo Riskin On Agriprocessors and the Uri L'Tzedek Boycott That Wasn't

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin needs to do a little more research. If he does, he'll quickly find that…

…Uri L'Tzedek has little factual support for its conclusion, and that the boycott was ended prematurely:

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, Chief Rabbi of Efrat, Explains his Involvement with Uri L'Tzedek in a July 18 Letter Sent to the Jerusalem Post (posted on Uri L'Tzedek's website)

In the July 9th online edition of the Jerusalem Post, [Chabad rabbi and sometime spokesperson] Rabbi David Eliezrie wrote a far reaching article about the controversy concerning the Iowa based leader in kosher meat production Agriprocessors. Since my name – or at least my former name (I am identified as Rabbi Steven Riskin whereas 25 years ago I officially changed my name to Shlomo Riskin) is mentioned, it behooves me to explain my involvement and present stance regarding Agriprocessors.

Uri L’Zedek is a burgeoning Orthodox Social Action Group, paralleling Maagalei Zedek in Israel, which insist that Kashrut and Yashrut, ritual concern and ethical sensitivity, must go hand in hand. I am proud to say that one of the leaders of Uri L’Zedek is a beloved student of mine Shmuly Yanklowitz, and in the classes that I give on Yoreh Deah to our Ohr Torah Stone semicha students, I constantly stress the biblical emphasis on compassion as a major source for the laws of kashrut (“Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother’s milk”, “For the soul is the blood of the animal”, etc.) as well as the teachings of Rav Kook in his Sefer Hazon regarding the moral ambiguity in eating meat. Hence when Shmuly informed me of the findings concerning Agriprocessors, and when I could not find a clear denial by the leaders of Agriprocessors I gave Shmuly the right to sign me on to his petition. When a leading rabbi, whom I deeply respect and consider a beloved friend told me that he feels that Agriprocessors were maligned, I asked him to please supply me with corroborating facts and I would then publish a retraction. I never received such facts.

At the same time, I am pleased to report that Shmuly has found the leadership of Agriprocessors cooperating and attempting to right whatever wrongs were going on in the plant. For that reason it was correctly decided to remove the boycott and give Agriprocessors every possibility of correcting the situation.

I believe that a strengthened Agriprocessors – in every area of halakhic concern - can only result in a true Kiddush Hashem and increased appreciation of Jewish Law.

When Rabbi Shlomo Riskin wrote those words, Agriprocessors workers were still buying their own safety equipment, the vast majority of new hires had left in disgust, and workers were still complaining about short pay and missing bonuses, along with slumlord rents. And they many were getting most of their food from the Catholic Church's food shelf, because Agriprocessors and Jacobson Staffing made no provisions for them.

If Rabbi Riskin did not know these facts – and that seems to be the case – then one man is responsible for that omission: Shmuly Yanklowitz.

Perhaps this was an oversight on Shmuly's part, perhaps not. Either way, it would seem Rabbi Riskin's endorsement of the boycott's lifting was based on incorrect information. As such, Rabbi Riskin should insist Uri L'Tzedek resume the boycott – unless Rabbi Riskin is satisfied with the cosmetic changes made at Agriprocessors.

If so, he can join a long line of Orthodox Jews who care more about their kosher meat than they do about the human beings who produce it.

[Hat Tip: Stephen Mendelsohn.]

Comments

[NotFrom5W]

Rabbi Shlomo Riskin needs to do a little more research.
-------------
Why don't you help him, now that you have unmasked the fact that I work for "Chabad". Maybe you will find out that Aaron's Best Salami contains feline hindquarters and that Moshe Rubashkin tortures the cats before he sends the hindquarters to his brother Sholom for processing. That would only be a little more ridiculous than some of your other gems.

I am sure Rabbi Riskin, whose achievements are legendary, can use your assistance. Perhaps his car needs washing; he doesn't look like the do it yourself sort to me and Efrat is awfully dusty in the summer.

[yidandahalf]

Why don't you help him? You seem like you have a lot of time on your hands or should I say hand?

[John K. Diamond]

The posts by NotFrom5W on this thread and another bring up important points to consider:

Today, we have wholesale corruption in the Orthodox Jewish Leadership in the US and in most of the Kosher animal agribusinesses.

These need to be exposed and corrected.

This web site is in existence for this purpose.

This gentleman is attacking many messengers, all very imperfect people, instead of assisting in the task at hand.

His time would be much better spent in joining us in this effort.

[NotFrom5W]

I am just enjoying some rare free time during the day because of a delayed appointment. I did not expect to expose Scott's sloppiness and incompetence so easily but I guess it is hashgacha protis that I have a free day today.

(Now, if I were on the level of Scott, I would send a copy of Scott's post about my supposed employment to 5W so they could use it to discredit him. But 2 wrongs don't make a right and Rubashkin made a big mistake in hiring a firm that would stoop as low as 5W did and does.)

Meanwhile, both of my hands are fine, thank you. And Rabbi Riskin does not need my help.

On the other hand, Rabbi Riskin may very well be willing to help Scott find some sort of productive employment.

[John K. Diamond]

You seem to be someone with above average intelligence.

So, why not help us to identify a very good lawyer, who will donate his time, in bringing a Federal Class Action Lawsuit against the OU, for defrauding Kosher Consumers for years, putting their certification on meat that wasn't Kosher.

[NotFrom5W]

Today, we have wholesale corruption in the Orthodox Jewish Leadership in the US and in most of the Kosher animal agribusinesses.
---------------
I disagree.

We have a few bad apples in the leadership, mostly sincere men who wore out or buckled under pressure, who are known to one and all who need to know about them.

We have a kosher industry that has its faults largely because it is behind the times, and the situation is not helped by maligning malcontents.

Ahava Dairies, one of the finest kosher firms there ever was, is now in bankruptcy. It is a pioneer in both health and ecology, but mismanagement and catering to consumers who want something for nothing killed it. (as did the owner's decency - he was offered money to sell but did not as he felt he had an obligation to consumers who hardly repaid the dedication).

Now, the same people who complained and made up stories about Ahava because of a few bottles of milk going off (which they returned anyway as I did), will be paying double for poorer quality products. My stories about Alle in its heyday are nothing compared to the tactics used by the former and now future market leader to keep Ahava out and their inferior product in.

As for the bad apples and the mom and pop operators who try to conduct international business, at least they are DOING something constructive even if they come up short. Some of the so called corrupt leadership are more burnt out than anything, thanks to years of underappreciated dedication.

Even the poster child for bad business ethics among Charedim, the infamous Allou, started out as an honest firm and turned to crime to cover for mistakes. Not excusable, but again, at least they DID something.

Scott and his minions rant in the wind, occasionally getting 15 minutes of fame from the self-hating Forward and an odd liberal journalist of the same ilk as Scotty (but employed).

Goodbye for quite a while. Barring another egregious error from Scott, I have too much WORK to do to bother with this anymore.

[NotFrom5W]

So, why not help us to identify a very good lawyer, who will donate his time, in bringing a Federal Class Action Lawsuit against the OU, for defrauding Kosher Consumers for years, putting their certification on meat that wasn't Kosher.
----------
Yawn. Better I should contact my friend who is in academic medicine in E"Y, to see if he can find anyone conducting a study regarding treatment of delusions of grandeur and whether they would accept you and Scott.

I'd add Yudel Shain to the list but I think he legitimately has multiple diagnoses that might disqualify him.

[John K. Diamond]

[Yawn. Better I should contact my friend who is in academic medicine in E"Y, to see if he can find anyone conducting a study regarding treatment of delusions of grandeur and whether they would accept you and Scott.]

Scott will have to speak for himself.

Frankly, I've not been told by many people who know me, that I need to seek medical attention for any mental problems.

My request to you was sincere, and was not for "delusions of grandeur" as you mentioned.

I give all credit to G-d, alone, for any progress that is made for any incremental movement forward to help establish His Kingdom on earth, as He promised to Abraham, our father.

[Shmarya]

The man is a shill for Chabad. He's closely associated with Chabad, has appeared in Chabad promotional materials, and has commented here before using a different name.

He is not honest, John. He is not someone who cares about truth.

A simple way to determine this for yourself is to read his comments about Ahava Dairy"

Ahava Dairies, one of the finest kosher firms there ever was, is now in bankruptcy. It is a pioneer in both health and ecology, but mismanagement and catering to consumers who want something for nothing killed it. (as did the owner's decency - he was offered money to sell but did not as he felt he had an obligation to consumers who hardly repaid the dedication).

Now, the same people who complained and made up stories about Ahava because of a few bottles of milk going off (which they returned anyway as I did), will be paying double for poorer quality products. My stories about Alle in its heyday are nothing compared to the tactics used by the former and now future market leader to keep Ahava out and their inferior product in.

I have no do in that fight. But I do have plenty of personal experience with Ahava Dairy.

It's products often went bad days, even weeks, before the expiration date. Quality was, to say the least, uneven.

Other halav yisrael dairies were able to produce milk and milk products that had normal shelf lives and decent quality – Ahava was not.

The only things that kept Ahava in business was Chabad's insane desire to eat Chabad-supervised products and a halakhic requirement – rejected by all most poskim outside Chabad – that equipment be kashered at 212º rather than 197º.

As other companies adopted 212º to please Chabad – or ran full time kosher operations on their own equipment – Ahava lost the only marketing edge it had.

And that, combined with some Crown Heights politics – led to Ahava's bankruptcy.

Yet, as with Agriprocessors, our Chabadnik troll sees evil mitnagdish machinations and 'unjustified' attacks from people like us as the cause of the company's troubles – not bad management, inferior product, or, in the case of Agriprocessors, violations of Humane Slaughter Law, child labor law, immigration law, identity theft, abuse, extortion, etc.

That type of behavior is one of the hallmarks of cults. It is very common in the Chabad community as well.

[John K. Diamond]

Thanks!!

I know.

But I simply wanted to be respectful and give this person a chance to join the team.

[steve]

Instead of debating facts, the Rubashkin supporters have resorted to childish name calling and defamation. Truly pathetic.

[bernice]

It is alledged that Ahava's Mr. Banyan took Kreider farms for a ride to the tune of some $350,000, Ahava was a distributor for Hod Lavan from Israel took them for some $200,000-That's the way they do kosher.

[steve]

We should work on making Tuscan Farms products cholov yisroel. All that is needed is a Jew to be in the vicinity when the milking is done and for them to agree not to include DA cows in the mix. I think it will be beneficial to them and to the community. It will not be a huge undertaking, since they currently are only in the NY/NJ area.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Shmarya says, "Rabbi Shlomo Riskin needs to do a little more research." That's the story of Rabbi Riskin's life. He is constantly quoting Jewish sources to make his points, usually with extreme confidence that they back him up. However, when I look up his sources, either they don't say what he says they do, or he has bent them totally out of shape. Either way, it's obvious that he never looked at what he was quoting. If he had, then he would be totally dishonest, and that he is not.

[steve]

They all fall for the old "we are fixing the problems. Things will get better, blah, blah, blah...."

[bernice]

The Tuscan dairy solution is a problem, TD would have to remove (& be monitored) all of the cows that had procedures that make them trayf.

[Isa]

Regarding:
Class action lawsuit against Agriprocessors

How many rabbis with long beards and black hats/coats do you think they can trot out? How about MO rabbis? these will simply get a 'gun' put to their head or find (or threat) a horse's head in their bed to say that Agriprocessors is a kosher run outfit.

[with the MO rabbis I have seen tactics, like that, used with my own eyes]

[Archie Bunker]

This sounds like it's right up Shlomo Riskin's alley. He waited until Rav Soloveitchik passed away before claiming that he approved the joke mechitzah in Wink & Stare Synagogue (Licoln Square). How convenient that no one could verify it.

[Archie Bunker]

Regarding Ahava Dairy, they were also caught with treif cheese which is why even the OK does not allow their products to be used.

Yudel Shain also has a letter from Chug Chasam Sofer that Ahava was forging their kashruth symbol on the Israeli deli meats.

[steve]

Bernice,

I think it would be worth it for them, unless they have a huge incidence of DA cows on their farms (like 15%-20%), where they couldn't afford not to do the procedures. Plus, they have records of which cows had the procedure done.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

unfortunately. rabbi riskin (the kin bit in his name stands for kohen) lately reported to be commissioning bigdei kehunna for temple service may have lost part or all of his intellectual assets. as such, alas, he shouldn't be 'mossif' much or 'gore'a' much.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

"Instead of debating facts, the Rubashkin supporters have resorted to childish name calling and defamation. Truly pathetic."
Posted by: steve
Rubashkin are dishonest and violent thugs wrapped in minut.
There is nothing to expect from them in terms of facts. They don't want facts. They know deceipt.

[Archie Bunker]

Steve, who is currently certifying Tuscan? I think the OU would stonewall this idea because it would make them look bad elsewhere and their image is of paramount concern to them. The Chof-K is probably the only major player honest enough to push this idea through.

[steve]

Archie,

I agree. The only alphabet soup agency I trust is the Chof-K. Tuscan would need to break away from the OU. If this can be pulled off successfully, it will break the cartel of CY companies and make kosher milk affordable to all. It will also make the OU irrelevant.

[steve]

I would also like to see Perdue come out with a kosher line, like they intended to do(before they were intimidated). Also, Hebrew National should have a glatt label, as well as a bais yosef label. All these proposals will be shot down in a minute by the kashrus Establishment mafia which would rather protect the few "heimishe" companies than the kosher consumer. To them, somehow this is ethical. Price fixing, intimidation, mafia tactics, corruption, are all muttar in order to protect "der heimishe oilam". This is part of the sickness of Orthodox Judaism today.

[Jason]

Isa, while you are probably right about Agri and the OU trotting out rabbis to say that there was no fraud, that everything was kosher, if the allegations re: relabeling meats and other objective evidence can be found through the testimony of workers at Agri, then there is nothing the OU or Agri could say from a religious perspective that would help their case.

Also, the value of such a class action is not in the eventual jury award (in these types of cases, the aggrieved consumer gets very little in the way of compensation, the only ones who make money are the lawyers), but in the cost to Agri and the OU in defending the lawsuit and in injury to their already-bad reputations. It is important that the larger Jewish and non-Jewish worlds know what a fraud these clowns are and they should pay for their misdeeds.

And just so the OU and Rubashkin apologists don't think this is about some lawyers making money, I would propose that whichever lawyer(s) took this on agree to reasonable compensation, but not 1/3 of the total damages award, which is the system that usually enriches the class action lawyer at the expense of his/her clients.

[Paul Freedman]

To Orthodox defenders of Agriprocessors--on the face of it this was a firm approximately half of whose workforce if news reports are accurate were found deportable in one raid.

Half.

A business does not end up with an illegal workforce by merely a wink and a nod, this apart from the charged maltreatment of that same workforce rendered vulnerable by its lack of legal standing.

Maybe from your religious vantage point this is all a ma be cach. I'll defer to your expertise. But that does not explain support of a criminal enterprise or going into the tank for a management whose perference is to manage law-enforcers rather than lawfully manage its business.

[John K. Diamond]

And don't forget the PETA videos and paper trail of official letters between PETA, the OU, Lewin, KAJ, etc.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I am tired of self-righteous individuals attacking Scott ad hominem rather than addressing the facts, and then going on long winded rants about how much time we have on our hands. I am tired of Modern Orthodox rabbis kowtowing to black hatted thugs and taking their word for it that everything is fine. I am tired of the guild mentality that protects shoddy companies and the old-boy school that protects rabbis. I am tired of chumrot, and dancing on the head of a pin. I am tired of all the "denominations" of Judaism. It is a trief smorgasbord that looks like a wide variety but has only 2 flavors: rightwing fanaticism and lefting political correctness.

[John K. Diamond]

But there is also a 3rd flavor, common yids like us, for whom, the Torah is the Commander in Chief.

[Archie Bunker]

Who intimidated Perdue?

[Archie Bunker]

Hebrew National once had a glatt label under Rabbi Tibor Stern. There was very limited output. Most people did not trust the supervision and whoever did had to have connections to get it.

[Archie Bunker]

The problem with Hebrew National under Conagra is that most people don't trust Rabbi Ralbag either.

[Sam]

A read for all, especially Shmarya- http://www.njjewishnews.com/edcol.html

[C-G]

Archie, it was recognized that the kashrut of HN, while not glatt, was fine under R Aryeh Ralbag- so much so that it was endorsed by Rabbi Abadi. It is painful to hear this old lashon hara being echoed years after the original concern had been rectifed. What is your source?

[Archie Bunker]

C-G, what is your question exactly?

Ralbag's father is accused by many of corruption. Ralbag himself uses minority opinions that are highly uncoventional and not used by any recognized kashruth agency.

Rabbi Abadi is a sort of gadfly in the kashruth industry. Some of his opinions are very lenient and some are much more strict than the norm.

By the way, someone tell Ralbag to stop parading himself around as the "Chief Rabbi and Av Beit Din" of Amsterdam when he has no right to give himself that title.

I will give credit to Ralbag that he made some important changes at Conagra like getting rid of irreligious shochtim.

[steve]

I don't trust Ralbag or most of the machshilim either. However, until the whole system is overhauled, we have to work with what we have. There are a few that are trustworthy such as the Nirbater.

[steve]

A decent article that falls short in not detailing the other abuses at Rubashkin.

http://www.njjewishnews.com/edcol.html

[Yochanan Lavie]

The liberal movements want to lower the bar so that Judaism is whatever popular opinion says it is. The Orthodox want to raise the bar so that only malachim can attain it. I'm tired & disgusted. (Not that I am anybody special).

[Shmuel Alef]

I follow this discussion with great fascination, and am glad that I don't eat meat (or chicken or fish), but do eat dairy. I have never heard of a procedure that makes a cow's milk unkosher. Can someone please elaborate on this? And what is a DA cow? Thank you!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber
Agreed to have a battle;
For Tweedledumb said Tweedledumber
Had triefed up all his cattle.
Just then flew down a monstrous missle,
As black as a tar barrel;
Which frightened both the heroes thusly,
They quite forgot their quarrel.

Apologies to Lewis Carroll.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.jewishberkshires.org/page.aspx?id=179973

Who's this Chaim Abrahams that he makes such a schmatta out of himself for Rubashkin?

[steve]

DA stands for displaced abomasum. Displaced abomasum (DA) is a repositioning of the abomasum (the fourth or true stomach) from its normal position on the right ventral abdominal wall. The abomasum becomes dilated with fluid and/or gas with subsequent migration to an abnormal position on the right or left side. The condition is caused most often by improper diet and by placing cows in small and narrow stalls. This condition severely hampers their milk production.

The most common treatment for DA is a surgical procedure in which the stomach is punctured to let out the excess fluid and gas. This procedure renders the cow a "treifa" since it creates a hole through the stomach. The procedure, which costs around $250, is often employed by farm owners to maximize milk production. When the milk of a DA cow is mingled together with kosher milk, it is nullified, as long as it is less than 1.67% of the mixture, and therefore the milk is all kosher. However, incidence of DA on dairy farms have been steadily on the rise and now range between 5% to as high as 22%. Therefore, we no longer can rely on the premise that the non-kosher milk will automatically be nullified.

[shmuel alef]

Steve, Thank you for the thorough explanation! You are a gentleman and a scholar!

[shmuel alef]

Steve, Thank you for the thorough explanation! You are a gentleman and a scholar!

[steve]

My pleasure, Shmuel.

[Archie Bunker]

http://gawker.com/5027876/succeed-in-business-the-incompetent-superflack-way

[Take The High Road]

Ok, lets just cut to the chase, it's about time that we started to take Reb Moshe's teshuvahs regarding Cholov Stam serious. While it seems that Reb Moshe didn't personally drink Cholov Stam/Companies, at the same time he clearly defended those that do.

The hecsharim have been operating as if Reb Moshe's heter regarding Cholov Stam didn't exist. We need just one Nachshan Ben Aminadov to say loud and clear, "CHOLOV STAM IS KOSHER."

[Archie Bunker]

Cholov stam is fine but if the cows have surgical procedures they are treif. This surgery was not done when Rabbi Feinstein was alive.

Even Belsky from the OU admits the cows are treif but then comes up with some long winded excuse why the milk is not.

[Shmarya]

Who's this Chaim Abrahams that he makes such a schmatta out of himself for Rubashkin?

I think he's a son-in-law, but I'm not sure.

[steve]

As Archie states, the metzius has changed dramatically since the days of RMF. Do some research on the subject and you will see how common this procedure is nowadays. Even if the procedure did exist 20-30 years ago, it was a lot more expensive then and less practical. Also, the abuse of cows, and hence the incidence of DA, has increased tenfold.

[steve]

Chaim Abrahams is mentioned as a "spokesman" for Agriprocessors. Another paid shill a la Lubinsky.

[steve]

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_5dmr6

Detailed Chaim Abrahams Company Profile:
This company profile is for the private company Chaim Abrahams, located in Postville, IA. Chaim Abrahams's line of business is ret women's clothing.

[yidandahalf]

As always first class comments, fact and data gathering,and research. You guys never disappoint.

[Archie Bunker]

Check out this howler via UOJ:

http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=2440

In 1999, Las Vegas’s Temple Beth Sholom was holding a dinner to fête the new mayor of Las Vegas, Oscar Goodman. Adelson, a member of Beth Sholom, had recently pledged two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to the temple’s new-building fund. The dinner was to be held at the Venetian, but Mayor Goodman said that he would not cross the picket line, and synagogue officials decided to go elsewhere. Adelson excoriated Beth Sholom’s rabbi, Felipe Goodman. Rabbi Goodman told the Review-Journal that Adelson had been “so verbally abusive. I was very upset because no one had ever talked to me like he talked to me.” After the dinner took place at the Four Seasons, Adelson withdrew his pledge to Beth Sholom. He gave large sums to the local Chabad, a branch of the Hasidic Chabad-Lubavitchers, for the construction of a new center.

[Archie Bunker]

Some people asked me a number of posts back to comment on some topics.

Rabbi Michel Ber Weissmandel wrote a sefer on codes before WWII and there was one even earlier work which escapes me right now. You will also find snippets of code-like analyzation among Rishonim & Acharonim.

I don't recall what the other topic was.

[John K. Diamond]

PETA has some excellent legal counsel that might be willing to help and also, in depth experience with both Agri and the OU in the various Scandals.

If everyone agrees, I'll contact PETA, if we want to go forward with this. If there is just one dissenting vote, I won't.

[steve]

John,

Too many of the current and former supervisors will only talk "off the record". If you can get them "on the record" then we can go forward. The current employees have a clause in their contract which states that if they talk to anyone regarding kashrus, they will be penalized $5,000 and risk termination.

[Archie Bunker]

http://newsok.com/will-arrest-hurt-batman/article/3273738/?tm=1216829884

Who in their right mind would seek insight from Ronn Atrocian about anything?

[steve]

From Wikipedia:

Toras Chemed (Mt. Kisco, 1958) is a book of religious writings that includes many commentaries and homilies, as well as hermeneutic material of a kabbalistic nature. Included in this book are the observations that led to what is called the Torah Codes.
Min HaMetzar (Jerusalem, 1960) is a book that describes Rabbi Weissmandl's war-time experiences. The title consists of the first two words of Psalm 118:5, meaning "from the depths of despair", literally "From the Straits". This is the main publication in which Weissmandl's accusations against the Zionist organizations appear.
In 1958, Rabbi Weissmandl republished the magnum opus of Rabbi Jonah Teomim-Frankel, Kikayon D'Yonah with his own footnotes and glosses. In the introduction to this volume, Rabbi Weissmandl gives an emotional history lesson.

[John K. Diamond]

Steve,

We would need to prove that non-Kosher meat, that was labled Kosher, was produced prior to December, 2004. This can be done via the PETA Videos and testimony from workers back then, that the throat-ripping proceedure had been going on for years prior to that. The OU made a public statement, at that time, that NONE of the meat produced at Agri had any Kashrus issues.

Anyone else have an opinion?

[Puppet of Sock]

you have a lot of time on your hands or should I say hand?

Ooooooooh! Nice one!

[Jason]

Chaim Abrahams is apparently also President of Postville Radio:

EXECUTIVE INFORMATION

Principal Name: BETH SNITKER
Principal Title: DIRECTOR
Principal Address: 112 HWY 18
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: CAROLYN CORBIN
Principal Title: INCORPORATOR
Principal Address: PO BOX 16
RIDGEWAY, IA 52165

Principal Name: CHAIM ABRAHAMS
Principal Title: PRESIDENT
Principal Address: 423 W TILDEN
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: GARY SIMMONS
Principal Title: INCORPORATOR
Principal Address: 406 SHERRI ST
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: LEAH LEDERMAN
Principal Title: INCORPORATOR
Principal Address: 534 W TILDEN ST
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: LEVI LIVINGOOD
Principal Title: DIRECTOR
Principal Address: PO BOX 130
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: NEAL SHEELEY
Principal Title: DIRECTOR
Principal Address: 317 LULL
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: NINA TAYLOR
Principal Title: TREASURER
Principal Address: 10134 ASPEN AVE
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Principal Name: NIONA TAYLOR
Principal Title: INCORPORATOR
Principal Address: 10134 ASPEN AVE
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

Registered Agent: RANDY FRANK
Registered Agent Address: 204 S OGDEN
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

BUSINESS INFORMATION

Business Name: RADIO POSTVILLE, INC.

Business Address: 204 S OGDEN; PO BOX 875
POSTVILLE, IA 52162

END OF DOCUMENT

[maven]

Harav Bunker:

I would need to see that he did what we call codes in his sefer, rather than doing some kind of prediction ie haman min hatorah minayin. I am going to guess that he didnt, but even if he did, it still would be a chiddush.

There is no record of code-like analyses in the Rishonim and Achronim, or for that matter among the mekubalim. When I was living in Benei Berak we spent some time looking this up with an expert on non-linear perush (the Rav I studied with wrote several well respected books on Gematria, Ramhal, the Gra, etc). The only reference one can find to anything similar is the term "dilugim" in a long list of hermeneutic approaches compiled by the Rokeach but we have no examples of what it was, and I would suspect it was not the fortune telling of the contemporary Bible codes.

[maven]

And while we're on the codes, I think this is hysterical:

http://www.yacovrambsel.com/default.htm

[state of the Jews]

I believe Chiam Abrahams is Director of Purchasing for Agriprocessor and sometimes acts as a spokesman for the company.

Regarding legal action, I am not a lawyer but...
The courts have determined that kashrut is a human form of slaughter as determined by the USDA. Furthermore shechita is a religious issue and as such a church/state issue. They avoid it like the plague. This has also been the position argued by the OU. Thus violations of an implied religious based contract are exactly that - implied, not an actual tort and consequently court involvement could violate the separation of church/state. Unless you have an actual contract that has been violated - say between Agri and a retailer you probably have no basis for a suit - class action or otherwise.

[Joel]

You know its funny, in 1999 the OU threatened to pull its hashgacha from a NYC kosher dining joint because they wanted to stay open on Shabbat/new years since it was the millenium new year. Ok, I dont need all the arguments on how mathimatically it wasnt the millenium. In any case they wanted to stay open for a friday night meal/celebration still following all applicable halachos and the OU was going to pull out even though there was no kashrut issue. Ie: they claimed that as a kosher certifing agency they stood for the "kashrut" of the whole resteraunt, even on operational/non-food issues and this type of activity did not fit in with their idea of Judaism. Why do they have this double standard now? Rubashkin has clearly violated numerous laws and halachos and yet the OU still sticks to them like glue. I guess Rubys business practices do fit in with their ideas of Judaism.

[Jason]

State of the Jews: I don't think we'd have to get into church-state issues. If we could prove that OU/Agri has knowingly violated any of its own policies on kashrut, we would have a claim for fraud.

[Archie Bunker]

The Klugmann family of Washington Heights more or less recently layed out funds to get old handwritings of the Rokeach and Rabbeinu Ephraim published. There may be some leads there. I have perused those works somewhat but don't recall any specifics at this time. I have been slacking off in my learning lately but when I'm more into it I can recite from memory various mareh mekomos that I have seen, even if from decades ago.

[John K. Diamond]

Placing Kosher certification labels on non-Kosher meat in interstate commerce constitutes fraudulent business activity under Federal Statute, if I am not mistaken.

Jason will have to correct me, if I'm wrong.

This can be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, for times preceeding December, 2004.

[rebitzman]

++If there is just one dissenting vote, I won't.++

You have your dissenting vote.

[mordecai]

I agree with Jason that this is not a Church/State matter merely because it deals with some religious issue. If you could show a substantial misprepresentation of a material fact that was justifiably relied upon with a resultant injury then fraud would be shown.

Let us say that a religious entity sold small bags of dirt saying that the dirt came from the Masada. Then it was shown that the dirt came from somewhere in Brooklyn this would be a fraud. The fact that a religious entity was committing the fraud would not insulate from legal action.

[bernice]

In New zealand there aren't any DA issues. Many Israeli Certifiers therefore took their powdered milk from New Zealand.

Europe has DA's & the rest of the procedures that we have in the USA that would render the animal treyf.

[John K. Diamond]

[++If there is just one dissenting vote, I won't.++

You have your dissenting vote.

Posted by: rebitzman | July 23, 2008 at 05:07 PM]

Aftsaluchus!!!

Then someone else will be free to contact PETA legal services.

[Archie Bunker]

If that NYC restaurant would have gone ahead with the New Year's party I would be willing to bet that the OU would not pull their certification. The same goes for the OK and many other whores among the agencies.

The OU has a "policy" of no TV except for news and sports events. When Mendy's constantly broke the rules by letting patrons watch shows such as Seinfeld, nothing happened, even after a bunch of Brooklyn rabbis howled in protest.

There have been non-food related incidents at Le Marais such as scantily clad belly dancers misbehaving with the men who hired them out for the night. The "consequences" were not even a wrist slapping but more like a feather tickling.

Agencies have discovered that clients have lied about their Sabbath observance but are retained.

Agencies have put up with other shenanigans such as mixed dancing, women singing and more. Little if anything happens to them.

They are so money hungry that they are falling over themselves trying to milk a few more dollars.

[maven]

Archie:

Although a big kitvei yad fan, I think the Rokeach page I was referring to is published. It was the final page of a sefer, I can check to get the . It is always possible that somewhere deep in microfiche land there are kitvei yad we don't know that would be full of derashot based on dilugin. Or perhaps someone can run an ESL and find out from Tanach who was going to write about it in the future :)
As far as remembering mekorot from decades ago (how old can you be?, though I suppose your moniker means you were conscious during the 70s)these mareh mekomot would be from centuries ago :)

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Jason,

Would it be worthwhile to publish another petition asking for signatures in support of Class Action Law Suits against Agri and the OU, claiming fraud in interstate commerce, sort of a "Declaration of Independence" from "Kosher Korruption"?

[Archie Bunker]

lol ... I meant things that I learned decades ago. This is a living example of what Rav Yisroel Salanter writes in Iggeres Hamussar that how learning anything in kol Hatorah kulah helps you retain and recall in completely unrelated areas.

[state of the Jews]

Jason:
I'll leave it up to the lawyers here to work it out, but historically the courts have stayed away from anything that smacks of a church/state issue. And, the OU has been quick to jump on that horse whenever someone questions their "right" to call it a religious matter. Keep in mind you're asking a secular court to determine what one side will call a religious matter in a fight between Jews. No matter how the court decides they'll get burned by one segment of the community or the other. I think they'll run for the hills. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer. Sure would like to hear a legal opinion on this one.

[Jason]

John: I would be happy to put up another petition; hopefully we can get more signatures on this one. I have spent some time putting together an op-ed that I have thought to submit to some newspapers, either Jewish and/or secular, criticizing the OU for ignoring its own standard in its "Kosher Primer" that a butcher should be a person of integrity, while certifying the rubashkins who are anything but. I have given it to Shmarya to review/fact check (since much of my information came through this site). Perhaps we can use that to try to drum up support for a class action. If anyone would like to sign on to the op-ed, let me know and I can show you a draft when it's ready.

State: You may very well be right, although we have a legitimate claim and shouldn't avoid filing suit because of how a court *might* treat this. That is the purpose of the court system, to determine the facts and whether they give rise to a compensable injury. If we let the OU stand behind the church-state mantra on every issue, then we are in effect letting them get away with whatever they want. The state legislatures have gotten involved in kashrut when they passed consumer laws dealing with the issue. And anyway, our claim would likely not be that Agri's products were not kosher, but that the OU told the consumers that a certain standard was being used, when in fact a completely different standard was sometimes/always used. This is not my area of expertise, but it seems to me that takes it from being a religious issue to a consumer fraud issue.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Can an apikorus like me still eat chalav stam if it has a hechsher? Or do I have to drive miles from my home to buy overpriced and inferior "heimische" brands, rather than normal milchig products with a hechsher?

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.kpvlradio.com/

What's Chaim Abrahams afraid of? When I tried opening the website for Radio Postville, I get this:

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access

Is it because he detects cookies from the anti-Rubashkin blogs?

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-03/2006-03-13-voa32.cfm?CFID=16607616&CFTOKEN=50240335

Pic of Chaim Abrahams with Rubashkin

[John K. Diamond]

Jason,

Many thanks for your efforts!!!

I'd be willing to sign your op-ed.

We'll need each others email address.

Shmarya, if it's OK, could you send Jason and I each others email addresses privately?

I will be getting a contact who knows some good lawyers in New York and will pass them on to Scott and you.

But I think that PETA Legal Counsel could do a much better job, as PETA, basically, has all of the "Pearl Harbor Files" on Agri and the OU.

[yidandahalf]

I'm up for it as well. Keep us 'posted'.

[steve]

YL,

Unfortunately, the OU refuses to actually supervise products which they claim to be under their "supervision" (Rubashkin products included). Instead they prefer to rely upon smoke and mirrors. Their hetter for chalav stam today is based on sfeikos (doubts) which they claim exist regarding the percentages of DA cows. Sure, as long as you don't investigate, then you can always claim innocence and hence you magically create a "safeik". However, realistically speaking, based on the actual statistics from the USDA and from the Dairy Cooperatives, the percentages are surely over the limit(1.67%) and the situation surely warrants an investigation. The OU is still into their Tommy paraphernalia, wearing blinders and ear plugs. Hear no evil, see no evil, therefore the problem doesn't exist, or it's all a safeik. Their rabbis use the same logic in regards to child molesters.

[John K. Diamond]

Fortunately, the OU paradigm of [Hear no evil, see no evil, therefore the problem doesn't exist,] may not be very impressive in a court room.

[John K. Diamond]

To all those who feel that suing Agri and the OU for consumer fraud is a possibilty that might be pursued:

Please mail your personal information to:

John Diamond
49 Patton Drive
Newport News, VA 23606-1744

Many Thanks

[Carol Ann Varley]

I'm held rapt by the direction of legal recourse. So what if there's a church/state issue--let it go to the Supreme Court if necessary.

A question: were people traumatized by viewing the brutal Shechita shown in the 2004 and 2007 videotapes? If so, could Agri be sued for damages?

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Carol Ann,

I know a lot of people who were traumatized by the PETA videos.

Personally, I was in absolute shock, trying not to believe that what I was seeing was going on in a Kosher facility under Rabbinical supervision.

That may not classify as the basis for a suit, but certifying and selling of non-Kosher meat as Kosher in interstate commerce is consumer fraud, as far as I know.

[NotFrom5W]

has appeared in Chabad promotional materials
------------
ROTFL!

There are perhaps five or ten identifiable photos of me that have been taken on cameras other than my own and that are therefore not under my control. They were taken by friends at simchas and at private events. Not one appears on "Chabad promotional materials", and my name does not appear on such materials either.

Closely associated with "Chabad"? Yes - with Chassidus Chabad, but not formally active in any Chabad organization.

Yes, I have posted under another alias - probably something like Failed Scotty. That much is true.

evil mitnagdish machinations
-------------
Actually some of the worst complaints against Ahava came from Lubavitchers, not all of whom support Rubashkin either. The main Ahava brand was under Skvere, and not Chabad, hashgacha. The Chabad line was almost an afterthought and was sold mostly in CH.

Scott, once again you prove your sloppiness and the lack of validity of your rants.

Back to work again - the rest of the responses to my posts are not worth a sigh

[Shmarya]

Now, Ian, you are far too modest.

[Jason]

John, my father grew up in Newport News. I didn't know there was still an observant community there. I haven't been down there since my grandmother passed away.

[yidandahalf]

John, What in the way of personal information do you need? I will get it to you but let us know. It's time we do something ourselves instead of waiting on our 'lawmakers' and other corrupt apparatchniks.

[John K. Diamond]

I just need a Name, Address and Email so we can communicate offline and see if we can make progress.

Using a blog to do this can be done, but it is very inefficient and personal information can be mis-used.

[John K. Diamond]

Jason,

Wonderful news!!!

We still have an Orthodox Shul here, founded in 1893 and one of the 5 founding members of the OU.

[Shmarya]

Now that might give your shul some standing you as an individual do not have. You should ask a lawyer about this.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: I will keep eating that stuff until my (moderate modern Orthodox) shul rabbi says not to. If it's trief it's on the OU's head, as are many other sins. I am not made of money, and cannot drive to Teaneck to buy "heimische" milk and products at a mark-up every time I run out of something. (And as I said, the products taste crappy, with a few exceptions).

[John K. Diamond]

[Now that might give your shul some standing you as an individual do not have. You should ask a lawyer about this.]

If we are able to do this, it's for the Honor and Glory of G-d alone.

I do not feel, that G-d is very delighted right now, in having corrupt Orthodox Jewish leadership being so dominant.

This leadership should mend its ways and be worthy of sitting in "Moses Seat".

[steve]

YL,

I don't blame you. I was eating/drinking the stuff myself until I started researching the issue. In fact, I'm in the mood for a Haagen Daz milk chocolate with almond ice cream bar as I type. Then again, I can do without the cholestorol and trans fats. Note, the CY companies have their own kashrus issues and their products are not 100% foolproof either. May G-d have mercy on us. Btayavon!