Breaking! Uri L'Tzedek Cancels Rubashkin Boycott

Full statement from Uri L'Tzedek is reprinted below.

What is clear after reading that statement is that Uri L'Tzedek was, to say the very least, ill equipped to do the job it set out to do. The entire justification for canceling the boycott against Agriprocessors is…

…that Jim Martin, Agriprocessors new "compliance officer," has set up a worker hotline and has been promised at least one year on the job:

…In light of these early signs of reform, Uri L'Tzedek is withdrawing its call for the community to abstain from Agriprocessors' products. The social justice philosophy of Uri L'Tzedek is one deeply committed to challenging what is broken in our world and supporting those who take steps towards fixing it.

There are still matters of great concern in Postville, and we expect to move forward in good faith with Mr. Martin and Agriprocessors. If Agriprocessors does not implement Mr. Martin's recommendations, and is not in full compliance with all relevant laws, then we will once again raise our concerns with Agriprocessors and with you.

In other words, because Agriprocessors says it wants to reform, and because its new compliance officer promises reform, the boycott is off. No substantive changes have been made.

The truth is, Uri l'Tzedek members were threatened, they were put under tremendous pressure, and in the end they capitulated for one major reason – they were told that, if the boycott continued to exist and grow, Agriprocessors would shut down and – gasp! – Jews might eat treife (non-kosher) meat or, even worse, Jews would not have access to briskets for Shabbos and would have to "suffer" without.

I did not do much reporting on Uri L'Tzedek because I did not believe these kids had what it takes to get this job done. I thought much of their program was ill advised. And, even though I wanted to, I did not trust them.

Now you can see why:

Please click to enlarge.

Note these kids thank the Rubashkin family for "respectful" dialogue when they made clear just a couple of weeks ago that Rubashkin representatives threatened them and were anything but respectful.

Note these champions of the oppressed do not address all the new allegations of worker abuse that have taken place under Jim Martin's tenure. (More here.)

This is the best Modern Orthodoxy has to offer – childish games, capitulation to threats, rib steaks over workers limbs. Pathetic.

Comments

[yidandahalf]

I also never expected much from them. Their 'deadline' was hot air, a month after the big boycott and they fold.

[Heyman]

http://upchucky.com/flash-farmer-donkey.html

[John K. Diamond]

In my opinion, this very sad move isn't going to matter.

Rubashkin is going down, as other groups are boycotting them.

And, G-d willing, when the Rubashkins are arrested, the final nails in the coffin will be hammered shut.

[yo]

While the problems with Agriprocessors are severe, there is more than just "briskets on Shabbos" that Uri L'Tzedek is responding to. The "middleman" is the one generally getting screwed. The restaurants and butcher shops have been supplied with cheap meat from Agri for a long time, and finding new suppliers for both the volume and anywhere close to the price has been difficult. The damage to Agriprocessors has already done, due to their lowered output combined with those refusing to buy their products-many establishments have switched away, not looking back, and they should be respected. Boycotting Agriprocessor meat entirely has the potential, especially in today's economy, not just to force Jews to be vegetarians (not that it would be a bad thing) but to put MANY people out of business who have risked a tremendous amount to open up these places (kosher restaurants are considered successful if they can break even within 3 years!).

[Shmarya]

This is simply false.

Agri has not supplied stores and restaurants with "cheap" meat.

There are other suppliers and, within another month or so, those suppliers will pick up the slack.

What you do not acknowledge is that Agri drove many smaller suppliers out of business by underselling them. Once the competition was driven out of a market or shut down entirely, Agri raised its prices.

[yo]

Shmarya,
How many restaurant owners and butcher shops have you spoken to outside of Minnesota?

[yidandahalf]

Shmarya is absolutely correct, Yo. In the words of a commentor on Yudel's blog, rubash-in was 'dropping his drawers all over town lowering his prices' to pull in new accounts. After that he raises them. His cheap meat for the masses campaign is a ploy and a temporary one. The ko$her industry can produce reasonalbly and fairly priced food that could compete with Wal-Mart even. They do not want to. Instead they have brainwashed people to believe wholesome, nutritious, cleaner than gentile food CO$T$ much more to produce. Sure it does after Big Hecksher lines its pockets.

[Shmarya]

How many restaurant owners and butcher shops have you spoken to outside of Minnesota?

The problems people have are because of illegal monopoly tactics used by Rubashkin. The market will repair itself if it is allowed.

Any restaurant or butcher shop injured by Agri should sue Agri. Form a class action lawsuit.

But don't try to claim that your drug pusher must stay in business so you can get a fix.

[steve]

We managed fine before Rubashkin, we will manage fine once they're shut down. At least "kosher" will really be kosher for a change.

[Dee]

Who threatened the Uri l'Tzedek members? Can you write an article to explain this?
I believe the Rubashkins should be punished!

[Rabbi Morris Allan]

Clearly Uri L'Tzedek's motivations were not the same as ours. We're going to pursue this relentlessly, tirelessly. They can hire ten more compliance individuals, more PR firms and lawyers, but we know what we have to do.

Hekhsher Tzedek is not in this for the short haul - we have a goal, and that is to make sure that Tzedek is on kosher foods all over the country.

This doesn't rile us. This is a cause. Agriprocessors is the drive for us.

[state of the Jews]

If Jim Martin has made such great improvements in the safety and working conditions at Agri, how come they can't keep workers in the plant?

[Charles Brizensky]

Jim Martin's improvements take time to implement. They'll take shape soon enough or he'll walk away.

[yo]

Hekhsher Tzedek-if you can't get Conservative Jews to cease buying food that's not kosher at all, how do you expect to get them to cease buying food that doesn't have your hekhsher?

[yo]

Shmarya,
Your drug pusher analogy is ridiculous. When companies started purchasing Rubashkin meat, they had no indication that there were issues like this. However they started using Agri as a supplier, it was not an illegal product to their knowledge, certainly not if they started purchasing more than 4 or so years ago. Stephen Bloom's book, while it made Agri look bad, did not describe any illegal activity. Because of this, and the monopoly tactics you described, these businesses are relying on Agri to provide their products. The rest of the kosher meat suppliers, at this point, cannot handle the volume that Agri can handle, nor the distribution requirements. Hopefully the balance is now shifting, and as more businesses shift to other suppliers, they can increase their production.

Please don't misunderstand me, and don't resort to ad hominems. I am personally going to continue to buy non-Agri meat. I will spend the extra money in many cases to buy kosher organic, especially some of the new options that exist (mizvahmeat in westchester, Arcadia Farms in NJ). I will make it a point to only patronize the restaurants that are not using Agri. But you are not considering the consequences on honest, upstanding people who have gotten caught in the middle of this.

[yidandahalf]

We are Jews of every persuasion involved in this cause. We will succeed because we cannot be bought, blackmailed, frightened, or manipulated. Therein lies our strength. Every obstacle is an encouragement. Any brick thrown in our path is only something for us to overcome. We will win this fight.

[yidandahalf]

A note to the pitiful Uri L' Tzedek, You cowards are neither needed or wanted at this point. If you chose to join in once more you would only be redundant fools. You have taught us all a valuable lesson so a case could actually be made that we owe you gratitude. Hold your heads up high, you sorry schlemiels.

[SpellCheck]

Rabbi Morris Allan

ROTFLMAO! Spell your own pseudonym properly if you want to fool anyone!

[Eugene Warsaw]

The fact that Shmuely Yanklowitz threw in the towel shows that the need for Agriprocessors food is great and even these tree-hugging orthodox guys had to realize this for the communities they reach.

As YO said, "these businesses are relying on Agri to provide their products. The rest of the kosher meat suppliers, at this point, cannot handle the volume that Agri can handle, nor the distribution requirements"

To get there is a tall order. Supply lines are expensive to build and difficult to commit to. Agriprocessors did not grow overnight and neither will any of the competition.

Need will drive this. Uri L'Tzedek saw this and soon, so will most kosher Jews. It's about pocketbooks, sorry to say. Frankly, the Conservatives whom Morris Allen represents actually represents very little of the kosher consumer base. So the Uri rescinding is key, while this Allen thing is just noise.

I know Avi Weiss, I know many of the rabbis in this yeshiva, and I know them to be genuinely honest boys who want to do what's right. Like their founder, maybe a little over zealous, but not dishonest. The fact that Uri saw fit to write this letter means that the left wing of Orthodoxy is moving back to Agriprocessors.

Glad to see reason wins out over misguided exuberance.

[Rabbi Morris Allen]

ROTFLMAO!
Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off?

At least we can make you laugh while we're trying to make the world a more just place to live.

Actually, with Uri L'Tzedek out of the way, we don't have to compare notes on Tzedek standards. It will be our own. That helps.

[yidandahalf]

Truly most kosher Jews realize that their need will drive a ko$her supplier to take Rubash-in's place. You are correct there but you are incorrect everywhere else. Still it's entertaining to see one of the UberK's shills pop up now and then. Afterall the Rubbishcan went to great expense to hire a PR firm to tackle the "vilification" and the blogs, no? So we really do wait with baited breath for your comments which are always so, hmmm........ shall we say rather unchallenging?

[Jonathan Gorn]

I suppose that anyone who posts favorably for the company is a shill, and anyone who posts any kind of "vilification" is an honest broker looking to spread the truth.

With that logic, blogs ought to be only a one sided medium with a big sign, "Only the peanut gallery need post here"

You're transparent and a wee bit shallow. People have opinions that counter yours even when those people are not being paid by an interested party. You're passionate, and so am I. So please, F*&^ off.

[steve]

To Jonathan Gorn,

I know how passionate you are about your underprocessed, salmonella infested Rubashkin hot dog and your feces-laced "low-sodium" "glatt kosher" Supreme/Aaron's/Shor Shenafal Btoch Habor chicken. I know how frustrating it's going to be for you and other passionate Rubashkin fressers to have to do without these delicacies. You may have to start eating real kosher and real food, for a change.

[Jonathan Gorn]

For all that BS, there have been no food safety recalls at Agri that come to mind. Can't say that about some of the others.

No salmonella, no food poison.. Get your issues straight buddy.

[steve]

THE BS IS UNFORTUNATELY IN RUBASHKIN'S FOOD:

FOOD RECALLS

1)On July 6, 2007, the FSIS reported a recall of 35,860 pounds of frozen beef and chicken because Agriprocessors failed to properly document on the label the possibility that these products may contain egg albumen, a known allergen. This recall was deemed "Class I" by the FSIS, which is defined by the agency as "a health hazard situation where there is a reasonable probability that the use of the product will cause serious, adverse health consequences or death." See official link at http://www.fsis.usda.gov/News

2)On January 23, 2007, the FSIS reported a recall of 2,700 pounds of frankfurters produced by Agriprocessors due to possible underprocessing. This recall was also deemed a "Class I" by the FSIS. See official link at http://www.fsis.usda.gov/News_&_Events

Salmonella Contamination

In July 2006, Food and Water Watch, a nonprofit consumer organization, released a report on Salmonella issues at USDA-inspected broiler chicken establishments. According to the report, Agriprocessors failed to comply with USDA Salmonella standards on two separate occasions in 2000 and 2005. Contamination rates for the failed test periods at Agriprocessors equaled 25.5 percent in 2000 between the time period 5/9/00 to 11/29/00 and 29.4 percent in 2005 between 8/1/05 to 12/1/05.

For the full report, titled Foul Fowl: Salmonella in Chickens, please visit Food and Water Watch's website at http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/pubs/reports/food-reports-public/atct_topic_view?b_start:int=20&-C

“Mad Cow” Disease

In the space of less than eight months, Agriprocessors was cited by the FSIS for violations involving processes for screening for Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), or "Mad Cow" disease, on at least five different occasions. A sixth violation dated April 2, 2006, concerning spinal cords may also be related, although this is not clear due to the redacted state of the document.

B'TEAVON "JONATHAN GORN"!!

(PS I can't stand Trekkies)

[Jonathan Gorn]

FOOD RECALLS - label issue - no poison
possible underprocessing - not a one report of anyone being sick as a result

Agriprocessors failed to comply with USDA Salmonella standards on two separate occasions in 2000 and 2005 -
No salmonella found EVER

violations involving processes for screening - Once again, the gov't took precautions but never had an issue with disease.

That happens a lot. Look up these records or I'll just do your homework for you. Other plants which I will not name just yet have been CITED for POISON, Salmonella, and other diseases, Not POSSIBLE, but ACTUAL.

As I stated, not a recall for actual taints or diseases ever.

Facts are important when your looking to destroy someone or something, So get it right you angry urchin. And yes, I will enjoy. Thank you.

[yo]

I hate to be the one defending Agri, but that is misleading. Other than the frankfurters (which were "underprocessed"), the citations are for labeling issues and screening processes NOT actual salmonella, Mad Cow, or anything else. Not that there is any excuse for BS like that either, but Agriprocessors has enough to answer for without false or misleading charges.

My question for Shmarya and others: We are in agreement that Agriprocessors, in a word, sucks. I am not questioning any of the findings up until this point. The hiring of Mr. Martin could be a way to ACTUALLY bring the company into compliance with the law, or he could be a pawn in the PR plan to make it seem like it is all on the level. Is there anything they could do to "kasher" themselves in your eyes, or is the only solution to close down the plant? If your answer is no, then I suggest you think about whether this is about the actual charges or about a personal vendetta. If the answer is no, I'd love to hear it.

[Kishkeman]

I will use the KAJ hechser as my guide to when to stop the boycott. The KAJ wrote at the tail end of December that they would take their hechser off of Rubashkin products in the middle of April 08. Of course all the problems that made them pull out Agri happened well before they said they would stop their hechser on Agri products.

So in this case even though the Uri L' Tzedek boycott is over, all the Agri products that were produced in these bad conditions will continue to be on the market for several months to come. Figuring from the time Jim Martin started to put in changes, I guess around June 15th, then all the Agri meet still on the market until let's say about November 1st will have been made under pre-Jim Martin conditions. That product is still disgusting to me. I will still refuse to buy it. If the product becomes Glatt Yosher enough during the next few months then maybe we can revisit the use of Agri products later in the fall. Until then the boycott remains in full swing by me.

[yidandahalf]

Yo, I have a big problem with Agri's actual schechita. How do you stand on this?

Gorn Man, What can I say? I have to be dumbfounded at anyone's defense of Rubash-in and a self description of themselves as passionate in the same spiel. After I come out of that state, I find that your ideas could be scary. By that I mean I am afraid for you. Dude, you need to take some time off.
As for my being transparent, no shit. Of course I am, and a bit of a broken record as well. But I have a cause so maybe it's sort of excusable. Can ya get your mind round that one?
Shallow, well, if you've checked in here once in awhile you'd know I'm just a dumb yid from the south. I live across from a hog farmer and well, you get the idea. Can't expect too much from me, can ya?

[yidandahalf]

I should mention that Gorn Man doesn't fit into either of my shill categories. So he gets one of his own: Wannabe

[dovid]

Look, Uri L'Tzedek did some important work here. Who else in the orthodox mainstream said anything? Did anything? Made any kind of statement? I know it's not the total victory we all would have liked, but kol hakavod to them.

[John K. Diamond]

We will all be so much better off when Rubashkins and others are sent to well-earned prison terms and we can move on to other pressing matters.

[steve]

Still hungry? Chew on this, Space Cadet:

The entire beef, poultry and egg industry had 34 recalls in 2006, while
AgriProcessors had two during the past eight months alone - both Class
I, the highest risk level.

In both March and September of 2006, the USDA sent the AgriProcessors
plant manager a "Letter of Warning" reviewing a series of problems. At
the end of the three-page September letter, the inspector wrote that the
slaughterhouse's efforts to correct the problems had been "ineffective."
The letter concluded that "these findings lead us to question your
ability to maintain sanitary conditions, and to produce a safe and
wholesome product."

There were at least 18 records in which AgriProcessors was cited for
fecal matter appearing on the animals being prepared. During December -
after the plant had received its letter of warning - AgriProcessors
received six warnings for fecal matter within 10 days. On December 26,
the inspector wrote that during multiple checks of 10 chickens, "fecal
contamination varied between 70 and 80%." Other problems, including bile
contamination, were noted at the time. After a number of warnings, the
inspector wrote that "further planned actions have either not been
implemented or have not been effective."

I only listed a few of the food safety issues. I didn't even get into the environmenatal issues, the USDA report, the Congressional investigation, the ICE raid and its findings, the abuse of workers, social security fraud, animal cruelty, the KAJ fiasco and the lies that followed, the label switching, the meshichist shochtim, the Allou case, etc.,etc.,etc. I know, it's all one big conspiracy. Maybe Captain Kirk can come to the rescue.

[Meaty Stuff]

One reason that Uri L'Tzedek's boycott may be over...

http://openorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2008/07/uri-ltzedek-expos.html

[steve N. Ator]

You all come from the same school of media - say it enough and it becomes true, or the bigger the lie the truer it seems.

You people here are irreverent and patently disgusting. Shmarya may have given a forum for presenting his views on orthodoxy, but instead he fomented a breeding ground for gossip, rumors, character assassination and lies.

What a shame that you people call yourself Jews and act like the worst of God's people. Thank God for the Internet and blogs - true honest media left us long ago.

[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad]

You all come from the same school of media - say it enough and it becomes true, or the bigger the lie the truer it seems.

You people here are irreverent and patently disgusting. I repeat again, the Holocaust never happened.

[Rabbi Yehuda Kolko]

You all come from the same school of media - say it enough and it becomes true, or the bigger the lie the truer it seems.

You people here are irreverent and patently disgusting. Shmarya may have given a forum for presenting his views on orthodoxy, but instead he fomented a breeding ground for gossip, rumors, character assassination and lies.

What a shame that you people call yourself Jews and act like the worst of God's people.

[Yossi]

Hey Gorn, you lying sack of AgriPro meat, They were cited on several occasions for failures to test for e. coli and failure to safeguard against e coli and mad cow's disease. If no one got sick that was purely due to good fortune. It sure wasn't because Agripro followed the law.

[Yochanan Lavie]

As I have said before, the problem is not only Mad Cow disease, but Mad Rabbi disease. I am disappointed in Uri, but they so desperately want the Ortho label they will ulitmately surrender their baytzim. The Union for Traditional Judaism is Orthodox in all but name; hopefully they will step up to the plate.

Steve; "No kill I."

[Jonathan Gorn]

Failure to test is not Ecoli, and no one ever reported that they actually got it. No news program had it on the six oclock news linking back to the kosher meat, etc. So juse take a chill and think of the BS before you write it. The truth is coming and your pathetic rants won't change that.

You hate these guys because they are frum and because they are Lubavitch. Face it, you're a hater of the bearded faithful. It's clearer than your dark outlook on the world.

[Jonathan Gorn]

And my name is Jon Gorn, don't remember him from Star Trek. Was he on Voyager?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jonathan Gorn: The Gorn were an evil lizard-headed race on the original series.

[Space 1999]

B'TEAVON "JONATHAN GORN"!!

(PS I can't stand Trekkies)

What does "Jonathan Gorn" have to do with Star Trek?

[Israel Seldowitz]

Round three.

It's disgusting explicit Jewish self-hatred to see so-called kashrut-observant Jews, openly irreligious Jews (who self-righteously claim they are holier than thou, if thou is frum) and anti-Semites join forces to harm kashrut observance.

This is like a cruel Purim party, where the people behind the mask of doing good are actually lowly hateful people.

The government accusation
=========================
Illegal immigrants were hired by Agriprocessors, causing innocent Americans from getting legal jobs.

What a joke!

Instead of going against the people who actually harm unemployed working class Americans, Agriprocessors is singled out.

Agriprocessors has no unemployed working class Americans nearby to hire. Hence, no unemployed working class Americans are harmed.

Rather, 400 families have lost their breadwinners. Yes, that's democracy. Our founding fathers would be so proud.

Now, unemployed homeless Texans are being omported and employed instead of poor illegal Hispanic fathers and mothers.

Yes, this is justice. This is humanity. This is in line with what's politically correct.

Those who oppose kashrut observance, those who mock devotion to Torah laws, those who are hypocrites crying 'justice', rejoice at the attempt to destroy Agriprocessors.

Some are jealous of the success and weath of the generous Rubashkin family.

Why was Abraham Aaron Rubashkin rewarded with open sucess, and why will he succeed in this latest round of simple Jew hatred?

He once told me many many years ago, he saw his children marry, and then their children married. So it goes. They all needed jobs. His nephews and nieces had children that needed jobs too.

So, Mr. Rubashkin thought, "What could I do?"

He then dreamed up the idea of Agriprocessors. Agri provided employment for his children, his sons-in-law, his grandchildren or their spouses, and so forth.

He created schools in Postville, and employed more people. Groceries were established with more jobs.

Non-Jews also found employment, as the infrastructure developed and expanded.

Maimonides rules that the highest finest form of charity is creating a job for your own family and relatives, and then for the local poor.

I think that Mr. Rubashkin is blessed with success because he has performed the finest mitzvah of creating jobs.

That's why the last laugh falls upon his detractors, who complain but hypocritically do nothing themselves.

[Space 1999]

Oh, okay, the Gorn. I get it.

[Charlie B]

Israel Seldowitz

Yashar Koach for calling it as it is. Thank you

[Yochanan Lavie]

Space...
Between the trolls' ears...
These are the voyages of the starship Rubbishcan
It's interminable mission:
To exploit strange new aliens
To seek out new lies and new disinformation
To boldly go where no bullsh*t has gone before!
(Pardon the split infinitive).

[state of the Jews]

From the looks of things Rubashkin paid his pr bill and all the kooks have crawled out of the woodwork again.

Anybody notice that the two supervisors picked up last week were deemed to be flight risks, and must remain in jail until their trial?

I guess having Hasom flee the country made the judge think twice.

[Israel Seldowitz]

I pity the poor immigrant. - Rabert Zimmerman

When you're born and raised in a country, you think like the people of that country, for better or for worse.

When you are a "poor immigrant", you bring with you old torn baggage from your country of origin. Its old. Its torn. But it works.

You think like a "greener" from the shteitel. You don't think like a sophisticated American with a modern-day "goyishe kup". You're old fashioned. Your values are different.

You're much too sensitive. You're not being American, ignoring what's wrong, and only raising a stink when it's politically correct.

It's politically correct to bash Rubashkin. Investigate that filthy rich Jew bastard with the old torn baggage. He's not one of us. Let them eat cake; let them eat treif. I eat it all the time.

This whole Agriprocessors episode looks like a Nazi story out of the book, but the Nazi is wearing a suit and tie. He looks respectable. He could even marry your daughter. He even slips on a knit kippah once and a while, to give it a break from covering his ass - excuse me. This is a decent web site.

Many years ago, I visited Mr. Abraham Aaron Rubashkin in his small decrepit office above his meat market on 14th Avenue in Boro Park. In his office, he had an old scrub-board and rock. I commented that what is this old relic doing there? It was like having old torn baggage from yesteryear.

Mr. Rubashkin replied that it was his mother's. She used to wash her kid's clothes in the river outside the village of Neville in Russia.

But why do still have it here?

He explained that he is a very weathy man today. In order to always remember his humble roots and never forget that he was very poor, he keeps this reminder in his office.

Yes, 5the old torn baggage still carries the "old country" with it, reminding a Jew of what's really important.

[bernice]

Isn't it a RED-FLAG that Rubashkin was never short on any cut of beef to their customers

Every other kosher (let alone Glatt) it is common to have shortages of certain cuts of beef.

Bottom line, Rubashkin is in the non-kosher (70%) meat packing line- so it's pretty easy not to be short on any cut of beef especially when management controlls the "kosher-labels".

To all of the fools that have been using Rubashkin under the pretense of being a kosher product should sue the for "consumer-fraud".

[yidandahalf]

So if Agri treated its workers decently, paid them a fair wage, kept up more sanitary conditions even if it meant that the line was slowed down somewhat, and slaughtered humanely this would somehow cause Jews to not be able to obtain kosher meat and Jews would be out of jobs? Is this what the rubash-in camp are saying? Because I don't see.
Whatever our personal feelings are about the rubash-ins, we want what is fair, just, humane, and good for klal Israel in the big picture. Personal feelings for the rubash-ins aside, Agri must clean up its operations and do what is right for the Jewish people. It makes no difference if the owners are Lubavitchers or not.
Many Jews are not only sick and tired of their antics but even fearful of the true anti-semitism they are arousing amongst goyim. Their excesses must be stopped and they must conduct themselves in a manner that will bring honor to us as a people. They have to do the right thing and they are not. Their loyalty is very insular, it is not to the Jewish people.
Calling the posters on FM anti-semites is a cheap shot and completely inane. And no one really cares. You can call me a verminous anti-semite all you want and it becomes quite laughable. Haven't you people noticed? Your PR department needs a make-over or some serious struggle time. One family has made a dangerous mockery of kashrus and the whole world must bow and scrape and uphold them as the pinnacle of Jewry. They are just like every body else. They f+++ked up bad and now they must clean up their mess.

[John K. Diamond]

So true, Yidandahalf !!!!!!

The Torah says explicitly: "You shall erradicate evil from your midst."

The Rubashkin "Horror House" animal enterprises have been "an evil in our midst" for far too long and supported by the OU, etc.

In biblical days, such things would have been totally eradicated from the face of the earth: All humans and animals killed, everything burned to the ground, and the place never to be rebuilt again."

So today, long prison terms for Rubashkins and others will do.

[yidandahalf]

I have come to the realization that rubash-in is the meeting point of two aspects of the same business model within agribusiness, the meat industry and Big Hecksher. There is nothing Jewish about the rubash-in anylonger save for his pandering to the haredi community and his black attire.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I love how Seidowitz is trying to tug on the "Fiddler on the Roof" heartstrings. I wonder how much 5W is paying him.

If I Were a Rubbishcan (apologies to Fiddler)

If I were a Rubbishcan,
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum
All day long I'd sit on my spotty bum
If I were a Rubbish man.
My illegals have to work hard,
Daidle deedle daidle
And my pr people will act as if you all are dumb
If I were a phony frummie rich,
Lying, cheating, double dealing man.

I'd build a big schlact house with violations by the dozen
Right in the middle of the Postville,
My workers would have to pay for protective clothes.
And charge them for health insurance they can't afford.
I'd give my buildings fancy names like "poultry kill,"
And all the pious rabbis hold their nose.

I'd fill my yard with Shiksas and Mexicans and Guatamalans
And PR flacks for the blogs to see and read,
Squawking just as noisily as they can,
And each loud "pa-pa-geeee! pa-pa-gaack! pa-pa-geeee! pa-pa-gaack!"
Would try to cover up my greed,
As if to say, "Here lives a kosher man."
Oy!

If I were a Rubbishcan,
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum
All day long I'd break laws like a bum
If I were a sanctimonious man.
My products kosher as lard,
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum
If the OU acted as my bitch,
And I stick it to the Goyishe man.

I see my life, my gelt, looking like a rich man's bank account,
With proper doubletalk,
Supervising shady deals to my heart's delight.
I see manipulation of the market to eliminate competition,
Oy! What a happy mood I'm in,
Screaming at the workers day and night.

The most important rabbis in Orthodoxy will come to fawn on me--
I will ask them to defend me,
Like a Johnny Cochrane the Wise--
"If you please, stop, Reb Shmarya!"--
"Pardon me, Reb Scotty?"--
Solving problems that would cross a prosecutor's desk--
(chanting) Ya va voy, ya va voy voy vum...
And it won't make one bit of difference
If I am really right or wrong--
When you're rich, they think you're really frum.

Because I'm rich, I have the money for the flacks
As upon the undocumented I prey,
And maybe have a seat in 770 Eastern Parkway,
And I'll discuss the legal books with the holy lawyers
Seven hours every day--
That would be the sweetest thing of all...
Oy!

If I were a Rubbishcan,
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum
All day long I'd sell cars that don't run
If I were a supervisor man.
The Gentiles will use throat hooks,
And we'll say it's schechita
as if you all are dumb.

Rebbe, who made the sichot and the Tanya:
Who decreed that ICE should never warn ya?Would it spoil some vast, anti-Semitic conspiracy,
If I were a Rubbishcan?

[yidandahalf]

This one gets saved and printed for sure.

This whole Agriprocessors episode looks like a Nazi story out of the book, but the Nazi is wearing a suit and tie. He looks respectable. He could even marry your daughter. He even slips on a knit kippah once and a while, to give it a break from covering his ass - excuse me. This is a decent web site.

If Jews who support the investigation of Agri are Nazis, then you should have no problem labeling as Brown Shirts, the Jews who smash/burn shops that carry women's clothing or MP4 players and spray bleach or acid on women for wearing denim or jersey.

Look, Agri has gotten into some trouble because they didn't do things as they were supposed to. That's it. End of story. This is not a rich Jew hunt.

Look at Enron. Ken Lay wasn't a Jew. Worldcom/MCI: Bernard Ebbers isn't a Jew.
Adelphia: the Rigas' are not Jewish.

And they all had a lot more money than Rubashkin.

[steve]

"Jonathan Gorn" is supposed to be a cross between Jonathan Archer and a Gorn. Trekkie humor.

[Jonathan Gorn]

Supportive of Agriprocessors = Paid PR
Negative on Agriprocessors = Objective pundits

Lol

You guys are foolish and so deep in your own sorry points of view that you've lost every ounce of objectivity. Sad, sad commentary on the state of thinking expressed here.

Silly people. Get lives, worry about your own families, children. Stop being so vindictive.

[yidandahalf]

Gorn Man, Presenting documented facts demonstrates loss of objectivity? How do you know we don't have lives or we don't worry for our own families? What has this to do with the issues of Agriprocessors? Once again, the efforts of the Rubbishcan shills are ineffective and futile.

[Jonathan Gorn]

An open letter to Rabbi Allen:

Sorry that you feel attacked, but hey - you bring it on yourself when you go public against other public figures and entities. It's like a political candidate getting upset at attacks on him/her. Grow up. You want to be in the big game, take the hits that come with it.

As to your issue - it's a non issue. We as consumers can choose which companies suit our lifestyles and wallets; we don't need another oversight agency taking our money to tell me it's alright. You're just creating another layer and another group for Jews to further get jaded with.

If you were genuinely in it for the Tzedek and not the control, you'd spend time and money lobbying the current dysfunctional kashrut agencies to adopt a Tzedek mantra with their current clients and requirements.

That would be altruistic, and you can get support for that. No one wants another organization and no one is going to ever fully entrust their kashrut to a Conservative Jewish value system.

Stop this war and target the ones you're really after - the kashrut societies who have the power to do what you hope becomes a standard.

Attacking the one company, making it personal reeks of cynicism and opportunism.

It's your call - your goal. Your reputation.

[yidandahalf]

I love it! Gorn Man as regular guy, simple ol' mensch. No air fairy intellectualism here. How clever. Gorn you almost had me convinced. Jesus, re-think this and then come back. We need something a little more compelling. C'mon you can do it.

[Jonathan Gorn]

Glad you approve. You're a cynical being; don't be - it'll make you older faster.

Relax a little

[Elliot Mintz]

It is hard to read these posts and wonder what the agendas are here. Some say they are in it to do right by the kosher people, others say they are in it to hurt a company and harm a name.

The posters who agree with this blog host gang up and attack the ones who don't and call them shills or paid flacks, whatever.

Blogs are exactly what we pound our chests for on Rosh Hashona/Yom Kippur. Rabbi Amnon of Mainz was butchered piece by piece while composing the nesana tokef, which was invented for the very reason of blogs - he had foresight. We don't merely gain repentance through Vidui, we need to really get inspired after the garbage and tsinat chinum that comes out here.

Heed the words that only through charity, repentance and prayer the death decrees may be canceled. We beg for Divine mercy because we are by nature is sinful. Here is is.

[Baruch]

How many want to bet that you have all eaten TREIF, direct from Rubashkin's, chapmioned by the boys from OU!
These people are simply thugs, who only know business from athugs point of view, and their own Torah standards, which do not exist.
I have worked in a Meat plant, and know first hand, what goes on with inspections, turning heads, not seeing anything. Doing everything the wrong way, and more.
For anyone to say, look at what good we do, not the bad is an EVIL person.
Why did KAJ, disolve their oversight, and end their relationship? When will people begin to stand up and be counted, The boys from OU, declare pork to be kosher, as long as the color is GREEN, as do the inspectors, and everyone involved with this slimy crew, called Rubashkin.

[Israel Seldowitz]

It's the holy rollers again.

Boy, do they have a bone to chew.

One person has already tarred and feathered the old man, and wants to lynch him at midnight. He forgets that we live in America, where people are innocent until proven guilty.

No, no, he knows better, like some hick who sees the old man as another arrogant nigger.

Another is a poet, though he doesn't show it. An honest poet is self-less, and sensitive to the feelings of others. He prefers to rather poke fun at others in attempt to show that he's so great.

Another implies that the old man feeds non-kosher meat to the kosher-observant, implying that the O-U is corrupt, and Rabbi Weismandel endorses the worst transgressions. Boy, Mr. Rubashkin, do people hate you?

It seems that the purpose of eating kosher food is lost among these people.

Instead of coming closer to G-d and being kinder to others, more generous (and less self-centered) and sensitive to another's feelings and needs, some people just prefer to belittle another who is successful in a cruel manner and could care less about another person's suffering.

They hide behind a mask of doing good, but look at their words, that reflect clearly non-Torah viewpoints.

To the writer who does not deny Nazi-like wrong-doing, but points to the wrong doing of extreme elements of ultra-Orthodoxy.

Two wrongs, lady, don't make a right.

If cruelty is wrong on either side of the fence, say this simply. But don't point to the hypocracy of a limited number of ultra-Orthodox fanatics as a justification to reject kosher dietary laws or anything that's frum.

Lady, in the Holocaust, the worst people were the irreligious Jews who theNazis appointed to be in charge of the ordinary Jews, who were made up of people who looked the part of Orthodox Jews and people who strived to do their best as Jews regardless of their limited background and education.

So, as a baal teshuva, I am not reducing the greatness of a unlearned Jew who sincerely tries to their best to be Jewish, nor accept the hypocracy of a learned Jew who says one thing and then does another.

Getting back to Agri, I think this is a witch-hunt, where people could care less about kashrut, and prefer to hide behind self-righteousness while they let Agri burn down.

If Rubashkin has money, he must be corrupt, says one writer. Next, he'll rename himself as Robin Hood the Hidden Tzaddik.

The Torah commends the rich person who doesn't succumb to the trials of being rich by forgetting their roots or being insensitive to the suffering of another.

But, here, if you have bucks, then you must be evil and be burned. Sick!

[John K. Diamond]

WOW!!!!

Where did you come from!!!!

I'll simply have to re-post:

The Torah says explicitly: "You shall eradicate evil from your midst."

The Rubashkin "Horror House" animal enterprises have been "an evil in our midst" for far too long and supported by the OU, etc.

In biblical days, such things would have been totally eradicated from the face of the earth: All humans and animals killed, everything burned to the ground, and the place never to be rebuilt again."

So today, long prison terms for Rubashkins and others will do.

To understand the truth, examine the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE at:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

And don't scream because these documents are on the PETA Website.

[John K. Diamond]

[If you were genuinely in it for the Tzedek and not the control, you'd spend time and money lobbying the current dysfunctional kashrut agencies to adopt a Tzedek mantra with their current clients and requirements.]

Mr. Gorn,

Yes, this is a valuable suggestion, but IMPOSSIBLE to implement.

The OU has been lobbied for years to reform the corrupt and dysfuntional kashrut agencies and has refused to make any changes.

This is why Rabbi Allen has to do what he is doing now.

[steve]

Another implies that the old man feeds non-kosher meat to the kosher-observant, implying that the O-U is corrupt, and Rabbi Weismandel endorses the worst transgressions. Boy, Mr. Rubashkin, do people hate you?
It seems that the purpose of eating kosher food is lost among these people.

No, you've lost the true meaning of "kosher". If the meat is truly kosher as advertised, why don't they allow anyone to supervise the labeling and shipping, especially since 70% of the output should be treife? If the meat is truly kosher as advertised, why do they not allow unannounced visits by outside supervisors? If the meat is truly kosher as advertised, why does the rav hamachshir muzzle the employees by making them sign a legal document to keep quiet about kashrus issues at the plant, or pay a $5,000 fine? If the meat is truly kosher, the owner of the company must be of impeccable character, not one that is involved in scandal after scandal- including money laundering (Allou Healthcare), safety violations, health violations, workers' rights violations, immigration law violations, social security law violations, environmental violations, animal cruelty violations and kashrus violations too numerous to list (from shechita to shipping). The KAJ pulled out stating that Rubashkin's operations are not up to their "kashrus standards". That is putting it mildly. Their products are not up to any human standards.

And BTW, stop trying to use "the old man" to gain sympathy for the Rubashkins. He is not in charge of the plants. It's his sons that are morally bankrupt. This sympathy ploy of your's is downright pathetic.

[schneur]

These guys from YCT are all raised in Jewish suburbia, attended MO schools and probably Ivy league style colleges.They are all straight shooters whose word is good as gold.
They have no inkling of the charlatans and con men inhabiting the Chassidic community.
They are no match for the "armoh" cunning of the Charedi buisnessman.
It should be the communiy rabis, Hillel Rabbis, Youth directors and day school leaders who should lead this thrust.
But they too may not be a match for the Charedi "zulikess".

[Israel Seldowitz]

Steve,

He owns everything. In G-d eyes, it's him, not his sons.

His oldest sin, Moshe, who most everyone hates because he's so rich, isn't even involved at all. His wealth is channeled towards other activities.

Like supporting divorced single mothers with lots of cghildren, and little means to support them or to buy a new dress for Rosh Hashana.

Or kids from poor families going to summer camp, where scholarships don't cover even half the cost.

Or a community-wide dinner, with live entertainment, and excellent speakers, for Purim, all for free, at his personal expense, to celebrate Purim and to promote the spirit of unity.

People bad mouth him, like his father. But in the end, G-d will overlook all their imperfections and sins, and deem them as tzaddikim for all the good they do.

I called the father the "old man" simply because he is an old man, he doesn't want to called "Rabbi R.", and Mr. Abraham Aaron Rubashkin is soooooooooooooo long.

Mr. Diamond,

I will review the so-called evidence.

Your last name (hey, I'm related to Diamonds) indicates clarity, and is a precious gem.

Do you have a clear view? Are your middos and thoughts reflective of a precious gem?

Are you frum? Is your perspective clear and illuminated by the Torah's wisdom? Are you a refined person with fine middos, or rich thoughts, like a precious gem?

Before you impilsively answer, I am not attacking you. Simply think about it.

Could a person with a very kind and generous heart, who backs up his generous feelings with practical actions, want to harm you, feed you unkosher meat, mistreat people, hurt animals? There seems to be an open contradiction here. Think about it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

David Irving would say "I have reviewed the evidence, and the Holocaust is not an objective truth. It all depends on your agenda. But of course, the Holocaust industry will vilify everyone who disagrees with them as a shill. Besides, Adolph was such a nice old man. He loved children and dogs, and built great highways. So open your minds a little bit, lest you have to repent on Yom Kippur."

Note to the stupid: The above Irving quote is a satire. I do not endorse its views.

[state of the Jews]

I think Steve, when all is said and done the "old man" will be found guilty as well. And, given Bernie Ebbers treatment by the Feds I don't think Aron Rubashkin will fare any better. Age is no defense.
Remember the saying: Follow the money.

[John K. Diamond]

[Do you have a clear view? Are your middos and thoughts reflective of a precious gem?

Are you frum? Is your perspective clear and illuminated by the Torah's wisdom? Are you a refined person with fine middos, or rich thoughts, like a precious gem?]

Hi Israel,

I put everything I say and do through what I call "The Torah Filter".

I appreciate your willingness to examine the evidence carefully.

After you do, you will see the current issues through a much clearer lens.

[steve]

He owns everything. In G-d eyes, it's him, not his sons.

Hashem doesn't punish fathers for the sins of his children and vice versa.

His oldest sin, Moshe

Your Freudian slip is showing. Whether it's his oldest sin or his younger sin, it's
all about fraud and corruption. Just a bunch of crooked businessmen.

[yo]

Schneur,
That's a ridiculous comment about YCT guys. The stereotype you describe describes perhaps 40 percent of them.

Yidandahalf,
You may have a reasonable issue with the shechita. So don't eat it. Chabad doesn't eat Satmar shechita, Satmar doesn't eat Chabad shechita. I understand that you and Shmarya are making it your business to try and undermine every single kashrut organization out there and claim they are corrupt, allowing treif, etc. I persnally know enough yashar people who work for different such organizations and I cannot accept that they would willingly, knowingly let Jews eat treif. On that we clearly disagree. Are their VERY problematic, corrupt people in these orgs? Yes. Is it possible that someone has pulled the wool over the OU's eyes on this, or that the OU is pulling the wool over everyone else's? Yes. But I'm not prepared to write off everything the OU does as untrustworthy, since I know many more cases where they are acting in a proper way.

Yochanan Lavie,
If you think the UTJ is the answer to any problem, then you are living in a dreamworld. The only people who have EVER cared what the UTJ had to say are right-wing Conservative rabbis who didn't want their shuls to be egalitarian, and their rich balabatim who demanded that their shuls be "traditional", that they not become egal, while they eat chazir treif and drive around town every Shabbos. There are wonderful rabbis in the UTJ, but as far as the orgainzation goes, they have been a joke ever since they started. How many people are in their rabbinical school now? How many Orthodox shuls, with a mechitza, are "UTJ Shuls"? Most are mixed seating, right-wing Conservative or "traditional", unaffiliated shuls. Rabbi Halivni threw in his hat with the wrong people. (Yes, I know about Netivot Shalom. That's one.) Remember that they began as the "Union for Traditional Conservative Judaism"-can they "do teshuva"? Sure. But saying they are "Orthodox in all but name" is difficult to say as long as mixed seating shuls are accepted as part of their "movement".

[John K. Diamond]

[Is it possible that someone has pulled the wool over the OU's eyes on this, or that the OU is pulling the wool over everyone else's? Yes. But I'm not prepared to write off everything the OU does as untrustworthy, since I know many more cases where they are acting in a proper way.]

To get an accurate take on OU corruption, please read the documents posted in:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp

And please don't respond and tell me that you won't read them because they are on a PETA Website.

The OU has become completely corrupt. I belong to a Synagogue, founded in 1893 and one of the 5 Founding Members of the OU.

The OU began as an Organization dedicated to upholding the "Honor and Glory" of G-d's Torah and has, very tragically, become one worshipping Mammon.

[yo]

By the way, for all of your pontificating about Uri L'Tzedek, the fact remains that they are the only organization, of any denomination, that accomplished ANYTHING in this situation. Shmarya may spread information, but did he organize rabbis, shuls, and Jewish leaders to boycott Rubashkin's at all? No. I still haven't seen one of his t-shirts at my local kosher store!

Hechsher Tzedek? Has it been put on a single product yet? Rabbi Allen started talking about it at least 18 months ago. It was a great idea when it started, but since Rabbi Allen failed to get a coalition of Orthodox rabbis behind it, and it has fallen into the pit of bureacracy that is the Conservative movement, because everybody knows that the rabbis of the Conservative movement are speaking to themselves. Find me one SINGLE Conservative Jew who has stopped eating at the 2nd Avenue Deli, which uses lots of Rubashkins meat (besides Hebrew National), since this scandal began. Orthodox people don't eat there, and the hashgacha they have is pretty much only considered acceptable by Conservative Jews who keep kosher.

You may not think that Agriprocessors has gone far enough. But Uri L'Tzedek, by keeping the pressure on and showing that there are Orthodox people out there who demanded accountability, got them to hire a CCO, whose job it is to deal with these issues, NOT the PR side of it. Time will tell whether he does his job (and is allowed to do his job by the Rubashkins.) If he quits or is fired in 6 months, we'll know that the problem still exists. While Sholom Rubashkin has denied the charges and screamed antisemitism, Agriprocessors has tacitly admitted that there are things that need fixing in Postville. So has the OU. That would not have happened without Uri L'Tzedek.

[Shmarya]

Please.

Uri L'Tzedek had NOTHING to do with the hiring of Jim Martin. He was hired before they even met with Rubashkin.

[steve]

Weissmandl is in charge of kashrus at Rubashkin, period. The OU simply places their logo on the packaging based on MMW's say so and based upon receiving their licensing fees. MMW admitted that he is not involved in the packaging, labeling and shipping process. He is relying on the honesty and integrity of the owners, that they wouldn't intentionally mislabel the meat. That is his halachic stance and that's what makes this meat "kosher". If this shavache standard is acceptable to you, and you feel that the owners are trustworthy, then enjoy. If you question the owners' integrity, then the meat is not kosher.

[yo]

Martin was hired before the meeting with Agriprocessors, but long after Uri L'Tzedek was CONTACTED by Agriprocessors, following their letter of May 23. Agriprocessors ASKED for a meeting with the leaders of Uri L'Tzedek. Have they asked you for a meeting, Shmarya? Martin was hired because of the pressure that Uri L'Tzedek and other media outlets were putting on them.

[Richard Schwartz]

Interesting posts, but, I believe, respectfully, that many key issues are being ignored. Even if conditions at Agriprocessors were perfect, and, of course, they are very far from that, we should still consider they are producing a product:
* whose consumption is causing an epidemic of idseases in the Jewish community and other communities;

* whose production is a major contributor to global warming and other environmental problems which threaten all of humanity;

* whose consumption and production violate at least six basic Jewish mandates.

Why is the Jewish community afraid to address the question of "Should (not must, but should) Jews be Vegetarians? JVNA will present $1,000 to anyone who can get an acknowledged respected Orthodox rabbi to engage in a respectful public dialogue/debate on that question.

[Shmarya]

Martin was hired before the meeting with Agriprocessors, but long after Uri L'Tzedek was CONTACTED by Agriprocessors, following their letter of May 23.

Please.

Jim Marin's hiring was announced on June 6.

Many people contacted Rubashkin before that time, and many customers complained.

Agri and Martin were in negotiations for days before the hire was announced, perhaps even before the Uri L'Tzedek leter was received.

To think that, with the crescendo of negative media against Agri, a letter from Uri L'Tzedek was the sole reason (or even any part of the reason) for Martin's hiring is, frankly, crazy.

[yo]

I just reread your goveg site. What is the proof of the corruption that you describe?

[yo]

Shmarya,
You can call me crazy, but of all the letters, articles, protests, etc., that Agriprocessors received, who was asked for a meeting? Who has been given the ability to contact Jim Martin? The "crescendo" happened because Uri L'Tzedek organized a large petition of people who comprise a core constituency of kosher meat consumers, Orthodox Jews. There have been numerous such media crescendos in the past 4 years-the original PETA video in 2004, the union busting articles, and NONE of those got Agriprocessors to do anything except send their shill Nat Lewin out to defend them. This is the first action that was taken at Agriprocessors that has any potential for real positive change, and while there is no question that the combination of many factors led to it, to pretend that Uri L'Tzedek's role in this is irrelevant, as opposed to Morris Allen's or Shmarya Rosenberg's, is frankly, kookoo pants (i.e. crazier than me.) You have a history of attacking those who should be your allies. Uri L'Tzedek is the ONLY organization trying to make these kinds of changes in the Orthodox community, which has seemed to be your goal (unless it is really to "convert" people from Orthodoxy, in which case you don't really care about improving Orthodoxy.)

[Israel Seldowitz]

Intellectual honesty, huh?

This is a watch-dog site?

Intentional censorship towards people of opposing view points that debate with you, and show you by very simple, logical deduction, your opinions with hatred for somethings others perceive as good.

[Israel Seldowitz]

I tried to post answers to your points, Steve, John, and Mr. Lavie. But they were censored. See facebook.com by Rubashkin lies or some other name, where I posted it.

[Shmarya]

I don't censor comments. You, however, do lie.

[Shmarya]

I just checked my spam folder to be sure. Nothing in it from you, Israel.

Anyone who cares to can see ample evidence of Israel's lies here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/01/rabbi-david-ber.html

[Israel Seldowitz]

Could a person with a very kind and generous heart, who backs up his generous feelings with practical actions, want to harm you, feed you unkosher meat, mistreat people, hurt animals?

There seems to be an open contradiction here.

Where is there a human parallel.

I think the Hitler analogy lacks sense and honesty. In fact, I think it's stupid.

Hitler murdered masses. He was not a kind, generous person. He was a self-centered ego maniac, who could care less about someone else.

How dumb could one be?

Such a comparison lacks integrity and honesty, and reflects bigotry and hatred.

[steve]

Again, Aaron Rubashkin does not manage Agriprocessors. His son Sholom does. Sholom's track record of lies and corruption at Agri speaks for itself. Although he is accountable for his son's corruption in that he is still an owner, that does not mean that he is involved in the day to day affairs. So please stop using Aaron Rubashkin to defend his criminal son.

[PS]

Yo,

You wrote: "There have been numerous such media crescendos in the past 4 years-the original PETA video in 2004, the union busting articles, and NONE of those got Agriprocessors to do anything"

After the 2004 PETA undercover footage was released, AgriProcessors was forced to immediately stop conducting the cruel and illegal trachea dismemberment on conscious cattle. This was monumental. So your comment that only Uri L'Tzedek sparked positive change is absurd.

[steve]

PS

They continued doing it in the Gordon, NE plant.

[steve]

Read more about the meat hook and more OU lies:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/07/ou-lies-meat-ho.html

[yo]

Thanks. I've read this blog religiously for 4 years. I've seen everything Shmarya ever posted. Not only that, I believe almost everything he's written, when it comes to the reporting aspect. It's when he starts posting his opinions that he makes himself look like a fool.

[PS]

Steve,
Yes, you're right that they did continue to use the meat hook at the Gordon plant. That was horrible in itself but not as egregious as what they were doing in Iowa. They also had an upright pen in Gordon which was more humane than Iowa. And PETA's inevstigation in Gordon, did get the meat hook stopped there. My point is that these investigations were successful in getting certain behaviour and certain procedures stopped regarding the treatment of animals on the slaughter floor.

[Israel Seldowitz]

Steve,

I'm sorry to confuse you, son, not sin. We aren't Christians, who reject the holiness of procreation, and belief in original sin. We're normal, with positive minds.

Most mental health professionals reject Fruedian psychology, like a teacher elicits discipline by placing a child in a dark room for awhile. Its barbaric.

Nowadays, Modern Pysychology, positive thinking, being forward minded, is the accepted norm, much like Chassidic thought. We don't dwell upon the past wrongs, we focus upon the future goals. We think good things, because it leads us to feel and behave better.

Its like the current rejection of Darwinism, and the preference for modern science and modern physics, which actually is muxch like kabballistic thought and Talmudic perception of reality.

We were just ahead of the game by over a thousand years. Ahh, G-d tipped us off.

[Israel Seldowitz]

Mr. Diamond,

If you are intellectually honest, as you claim and seemingly demonstrate, the evidence you point to can not be a foregone conclusion. Otherwise, its prejudiced, taited...

Modern science teaches us to carefully examine. Perhaps, the conclusion is different.

Modern physics teaches us that things are not as they seem at first glance. Something else is stirring behind the scenes.

When we discover the truth, it may be startling. If we are truly honest to ourselves, if we are open-minded, we are prepared psychologically for the results, even if they disagree with our earlier view.

[Israel Seldowitz]

Yohanan,

I agree you have to call a spade a spade, and you can never be afraid of the truth, if you are truly honest to yourself.

If you have an agenda, either to deny the murder of 6 million Jews like Irving, or wear the wool over your eyes like the monkey who sees no evil, hears no evil, and speaks no evil, while Rome burns, then you are not honest to yourself.

At first glance, it appears that you like others have an agenda to burn Agri to the ground, and incarcerste most of the Rubashkins in your zealousness to reveal the truth.

Something dishonest lurks here. I don't know what it is yet. As they say, something smells of a dead rotting rat. Hmm. Where's that smell coming from?

So far, no one addressed the inconsistancy between the actual acts of kindness, generosity, and sensitivity towards humanity of the Rubashkin family, and the contradiction of what ya'all portray.

[Israel Seldowitz]

Yohanan,

I agree you have to call a spade a spade, and you can never be afraid of the truth, if you are truly honest to yourself.

If you have an agenda, either to deny the murder of 6 million Jews like Irving, or wear the wool over your eyes like the monkey who sees no evil, hears no evil, and speaks no evil, while Rome burns, then you are not honest to yourself.

At first glance, it appears that you like others have an agenda to burn Agri to the ground, and incarcerste most of the Rubashkins in your zealousness to reveal the truth.

Something dishonest lurks here. I don't know what it is yet. As they say, something smells of a dead rotting rat. Hmm. Where's that smell coming from?

So far, no one addressed the inconsistancy between the actual acts of kindness, generosity, and sensitivity towards humanity of the Rubashkin family, and the contradiction of what ya'all portray.

[Israel Seldowitz]

Everyone except you know who,

So far, no one addressed the inconsistancy between the actual acts of kindness, generosity, and sensitivity towards humanity of the Rubashkin family, and the contradiction of what ya'all portray.

One person compared Hitler to liking kids and pets to the old man's generosity. Come on, how stupid can you get?

Is this the bast intelligent people as yourselves can suggest?

John, is silence a sign of concession?