BREAKING! JTA Traces Fake Rabbi Morris Allen Comment To Agriprocessors Spokesman's Home

It was a comment impersonating Rabbi Morris Allen, founder of Hechsher Tzedek, and it was left on…

…the JTA's blog on Tuesday night at 9:51 p.m. It came from the home of 5WPR's senior VP, Juda Engelmayer.

Engelmayer is in charge of the Agriprocessors / Rubashkin account and is often quoted as Agriprocessor's spokesman.

This may expose Agriprocessors and the Rubashkin family to legal action from Rabbi Allen and Hechsher Tzedek.

Fraudulent comments with links to 5WPR were first exposed here on FailedMessiah,com.

The JTA's breaking report:

PR firm faces scrutiny
Published: 07/10/2008

A fraudulent comment appears to have been posted to the JTA Web site from the home of an executive with the PR firm representing Agriprocessors.

The firm, 5WPR, is accused of making fraudulent postings to several Web sites in the name of Morris Allen, a Conservative rabbi and leading critic of Agriprocessors, the country's largest kosher meat producer.

Two of the postings appeared at FailedMessiah.com, a blog that is highly critical of Agriprocessors. The blog, operated by Shmarya Rosenberg, reported Wednesday that the two comments in Allen's name came from Web, or Internet Protocol, addresses registered to 5WPR; later in the day the blog quoted the 5WPR executive handling the Agriprocessors account, Juda Engelmayer, as saying he had been unaware of the fraudulent postings and blaming them on an intern.

A separate comment purporting to be from Allen was posted Tuesday night at 9:51 p.m. to an article on the JTA Web site about Agriprocessors. It came from the same IP address as an e-mail that Engelmayer sent 10 minutes earlier to two JTA employees. That IP address -- which is different from the one that FailedMessiah’s Rosenberg tied to 5WPR’s offices -- is a residential consumer Internet connection on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, where Engelmayer lives.

A person identifying himself as the intern in question called JTA Thursday, but refused to provide a full name. The caller said that he posted the fraudulent comment to the JTA site using a computer at Engelmayer’s apartment during a get-together there Tuesday night, but without Engelmayer’s knowledge.

Engelmayer declined to comment.

Ronn Torossian, 5WPR's founder and president, told JTA the company was conducting an internal investigation.

Several of the fraudulent comments portrayed Allen as being motivated by a desire to promote the interests of Hekhsher Tzedek and the Conservative
movement rather than finding out the truth about Agriprocessors and seeing the company make improvements.

Allen told JTA that he did not leave any of the comments and may pursue legal action against 5WPR.

The post that broke the story.

Agriprocessors / Rubashkin mistreatment of workers and related issues.

Rubashkin / Agriprocessors index page.

Previous 5W Scandal Posts: 1, 2, 3 & 4.

Comments

[a reader]

its nice to know that englemayer has his "interns" visiting his home at 10pm. bill clinton had his interns keeping similar hours.
gotta love that 5W touts themselves as 'crisis management' specialists. rubushkin's hard-earned PR budget is definitely being put to good use. 5W's presence has gone a long way to diffusing the appalling scandal that has become the rubashkin company's (and their entire family's) existence.
if anything, 5W and rubashkin are a match made in heaven. both, when confronted with incontrovertible proof of their wrongdoing, choose to deny all accusations and maintain their absolute innocence rather than accepting responsibilities and changing their ways. there must be some conspiracy to get 5W just like their is a conspiracy to get rubashkin, right??
i'm left to wonder what PR firm 5W will hire to assist them with their own 'crisis control'.
truth is truly stranger than fiction. you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

Does anyone really believe Engelmayer at this point? That it was the result of an intern and not his own efforts and he is just trying to avoid having to take the blame personally? Of course, the same Orthodox rabbis who insist on dan l'kaf z'chut regarding the Rubashkins -- even with their chazaka for unethical business practices -- will insist on giving the same leeway to 5W, even with its history of bullying and intimidation.

To these folks, their DSL internet connection = Deny, Sockpuppet, and Lie. Their IP addresses = Intimidate and Prevaricate.

[Isa]

Remember President Richard Nixon? Tricky Dicky to some...
He really did NOT need to have a staff of 'plumbers' as he won in a landslide as I remember.
BUT it was this staff of 'plumbers' whose actions drove him from office.
Poor Rubashkin, now he has even bigger problems now. har har har

[jewishwhistleblower]

Juda Engelmayer: Wikipedia known activity
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&contribs=user&target=Judae1&year=&month=

1) Interesting Yori Yanover moment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/LoHo
....
Your allegation is 100% untrue. But, as you represent the Lower East Side BID that has been opposed to any renaming for so long... Oh, but we can't know for sure, because some of us are open, while others lurk in anonymity. The joke of your tone and conspiracy theories, whether Wikipedia deletes it or not, has everything to do with whether the administrators feel LoHo is an established term, and nothing to do with its origins and the neighborhood politics.
Sad to say, most of the posts against LoHo, indicate more of a position against the proprietor and how his actions vis à vi gentrification and promotion over the years have affected the neighborhood. The fact that the name LoHo is used, primarily the new people and the younger people, is what will count in the end, and not the nastiness that just about all of those neighborhood people who have had their say here have spewed.
Whether the neighborhood is now more expensive, less Jewish, more gentrified and all, has nothing to do with whether the term is in play, and frankly, has little to do with the proprietor in question – he was in the right place at the right time 10 years ago – anyone else who might have stepped in instead of him would have sold millions worth of apartments too, and we’d be in the same argument – just maybe a different name/term. Get real people – separate your emotions from facts and try to have a civil conversation – that is what is lacking, and that is the traditional Lower East Side. Move on. Juda S. Engelmayer 14:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Which allegation is untrue? That Yori Yanover is the editor of LoHo Realty's LoHo10002.com? Or that East Village received media coverage in the 60s? Or that the name NoLIta has firmly established itself? If any of that is true, I'll retract the "allegation".
Pointing out an apparent conflict of interest is not a conspiracy theory - it's more than relevant to the argument if you or Yori have, or at one point had, a professional relationship with Goldman and LoHo Realty, since one of the questions here is whether the real estate company is engaging in astroturfing. It doesn't discount your argument, but it's at least worth considering, and it actually would help your argument if you were completely transparent about your relationship with the realtors.
(FWIW, I am a 20-something resident of the Lower East Side who is not affiliated with the Lower East Side BID, so I unfortunately have no sexy details to disclose)
I also don't need a lecture on civility from someone who has refused to assume good faith from the very start. Like I said before, stop worrying about me or my motivations, and for once, address whether the article meets Wikipedia's standards. Mosmof 14:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
...

http://www.observer.com/term/26616
...
Juda Engelmayer
Making the World Safe for 'LoHo'
Jan. 18th, 2007, 7:42 am
Tags:
Real Estate
Dara Lehon
Juda Engelmayer
Juda Engelmayer, a public relations executive, has been spending a lot of his unbillable hours defending the real estate neologism LoHo ("Lower Houston Street"). Meanwhile, a self-proclaimed "Wikiminimalist" who goes by the moniker Mosmof is trying to get the entry on LoHo erased from Wikipedia.
Watch the sparks fly on the proposed deletion page.

At first, The Real Estate thought Mr. Engelmayer worked for LoHo Realty, which has pushed to get the term (representing the "new" Lower East Side) widely accepted, but he said he is volunteering his time.

"I live there, raise my family there, own a bialy bakery, served on one of the co-op boards for 13 years, and have advocated for the neighborhood all my adult life," he e-mailed.

Mr. Engelmayer suspects his adversary works for the Lower East Side Business Improvement District. Dara Lehon, deputy director for the BID, told The Real Estate that she did not perpetrate nor authorize any linguistic warfare, and sees no threat to the identity of the neighborhood or her BID's brand by the new name. "We have been working hard doing other things, to be honest."

- Matthew Schuerman
...

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

I am searching Wikipedia for Englemayer's edits there. According to his user page, he has made over 1400 edits to Wikipedia sites under the username Judae1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Judae1

A list of his Wikipedia edits can be found here:

http://toolserver.org/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Judae1&site=en.wikipedia.org

He has virtually written the 5W Public Relations page on Wikipedia from scratch as shown on that page's history tab (older 50 edits):

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=5W_Public_Relations&offset=20070606132259&action=history

It is clear that Englemayer is heavily into editing and posting -- and not merely relying on an intern. It wouuld be good to investigate if he has ever sockpuppeted on Wikipedia, and if so, under what aliases or IP's. If someone can find a way of tracing this, yasher koach.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

One user noted that Engelmayer's edits on Wikipedia's 5W page were a conflict of interest("COI" in Wikispeak), spam on behalf of 5W, and a violation of Wikipedia's COI policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:5W_Public_Relations

[jewishwhistleblower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_14

The following is an archived debate of the possible conflict of interest related to the article above Please do not modify it.
Kossar's Bialys
Kossar's Bialys (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
Judae1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
This article contains a lot of peacock terms since it is edited by the owner of the bakery. User:Judae1 claims to be Juda S. Engelmayer and the owner of the bakery. He writes on his user page "Juda also has business experience, being an owner of a bit of New York’s Jewish history, Kossar’s Bialy Bakery on the Lower East Side." He actually wrote in the article "Kossar's Bialys wins rave reviews from just about every food and market rating service..." and called the bakery a "New York City landmark establishment". He even adds false citations to his edits. Please see [9].

The Fact is that Kossar's, regardless of who I am, has won every single food critic award consistently and over again. Whether it is Zagat's, Schecky's, CitySearch, Time Out NY, Saveur Magazine, and a host of blogs, Kossar's has been winning them for decades. It is also on every NYC tour of Lower Manhattan. I could overload Wiki with every single reference and every single link available, but that would be overkill and arguably make it more of an advertisement. Second, this Agha seems to have a knack for not reading too well, because all of the references are valid and state the facts as written. The article from 1958 mentions the union association that was exclusive to bialy bakers. Logic dictates that there is no unique union group established for one bakery, but for a whole industry. The fact that few records exist about it does not make it less of a fact. Look at NYU's library NYU's union records on the union and scroll to where it states the term - Bialy (Kuchen) Division.
It is wholly possible for an interested party to edit without conflict, as long as one sticks to what is fact. The mere fact that user Nadar does not like it, does not make it wrong either. I earned this person's ire when I edited the Israeli raid on Entebbe Wiki site, and he has become relentless - bordering on harassment. Wiki is a site for enlightenment, not a place to alter history or modify facts to suit a point of view. Telling me I cannot write because he disapproves of my edits due perhaps, because they are in opposition to views held by this contributor is not useful. Because of this editor's zeal, Wiki administrators locked editing on Operation Entebbe. See this for what it is. Juda S. Engelmayer 14:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, he also is the "Vice President, Government and Corporate Issues Practice at 5W Public Relations." He is the main editor at 5W Public Relations too. I warned him about the conflict of interest here [10], but he just removed my warning.--Agha Nader 02:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I gave Kossar's Bialys a major trimming to remove traces of advertising; please take a look. (Some of what used to be there could be transplanted into bialy.) I tagged 5W Public Relations as COI without taking further action. For better or worse, Judae1 is an established contributor who knows how to find references for both altruistic and ulterior purposes. Sometimes it's not possible to solve all problems that arise. YechielMan 03:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I take the false citations business very seriously. How exactly do you conclude that? DurovaCharge! 17:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
He wrote: the "bakery is now the last remnant of what was once a major industry..." I added a citation needed and he removed the tag and added three references. The problem is that none of the 'references' supported the claim that the bakery is "the last remnant" of the bialy industry [11]. I made this edit [12] and wrote in my edit summary "neither of the sources make the claim that it is "the last remnant of what was once a major industry", then he reverted my edit and wrote in his edit summary "Sure it does, it says "Kossar's is also one of the last bastions of homemade, classic New York-style bialys." [13]. Obviously he knows the difference between "one of the last bastions" and "the last remnant", but he wanted to exaggerate, because he has a conflict of interest. Since he owns the bakery his financial interests clash with those of the encyclopedia. I recommend a block since his edits have been disruptive. --Agha Nader 19:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
You'll find no false citations. There are three bakeries left in the country that make bialys, but Kossar's is the last one that still has a totally handmade process. Bell Bialys in Brooklyn and Slims use an automated tunnel oven where Kossar's are still hand-pulled and placed in the brick oven on wooden peels by hand, no automation - so yes, last one is not incorrect.Juda S. Engelmayer 19:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess that logic only makes sense if you own the bakery. "bakery is now the last remnant of what was once a major industry..." does not equal "There are three bakeries left in the country that make bialys"--no matter how much spin you put on it.--Agha Nader 19:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
The industry was an artisan one, handmade. Not machine made. The union was for bialy makers, not hopper stuffers; people who had broad forearms from rolling dough and lifting peels. The other two are not that. You can be as obstinate as you'd like, yet the facts do not change.Juda S. Engelmayer 19:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:OR. You are not exempt from it--Agha Nader 19:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) All right, in the interests of WP:AGF I'll regard the citation issue as a semantic mistake. Please refrain from the appearance of impropriety in the future. If you wish to improve the article then the best thing to do is to write up a sample draft in your own user space, post a userpage template on the draft, and post a link at the article talk page asking uninvolved editors to review and adapt it for the article. It's also fair to post review requests to editors who recently edited that page and to the relevant WikiProjects. Uninvolved editors are more likely to craft an appropriate neutral and encyclopedic tone. DurovaCharge! 19:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank youJuda S. Engelmayer 20:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[jewishwhistleblower]

Someone may want to take a closer look at the comments to this Shafran article re: Agriprocessors: http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/19/the-missing-ethic/

particularly in light of:

http://hr.reddit.com/user/judae1/
1. The Missing Ethic (cross-currents.com)
submitted 21 dan ago by judae1 to reddit.com

komentiraj

[jewishwhistleblower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/judae1

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Judae1
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Requests for adminship (Redirected from Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/judae1)
Jump to: navigation, search
The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a request for adminship that did not succeed. Please do not modify it.
[edit] Judae1
Final (0/5/0); ended 18:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Withdrawn by candidate. (aeropagitica) 18:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Judae1 (talk · contribs) - The user is me. I am a writer, an editor, a political and policy wonk, certain foreign affairs expert, general reader of non fiction, and sometimes good sci-fi or mystery novels. I work for a public relations firm, own a bakery and have been a political and community advocate in NYC and Israel for a very long time Juda S. Engelmayer 16:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:

Questions for the candidate
Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Wikipedia in this capacity. Please take the time to answer a few generic questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What sysop chores do you anticipate helping with? Please check out Category:Wikipedia backlog and Category:Administrative backlog, and read the page about administrators and the administrators' reading list.
A: I can handle article cleanups, as I am pretty good about copy editing works and would gladly assist with reviews on Candidates for speedy deletion for wikipdia policy and with facts in the articles. Not great at editing my own, though. I can also check facts, copyrights, and have a wealth of resources to pull from. I will go through images with unknown copyright status, images with unknown sources and articles lacking sources. Clealry most can be done now too without the admin status, but it is a level of authority and responsibility that one must do as an administrator.
2. Of your articles or contributions to Wikipedia, are there any with which you are particularly pleased, and why?
A: Pablo Rubinstein - Dr. Rubinstein is truly an unsung hero, someone who quietly revolutionized a field of medicine and has saved many lives as a result, but does not appear to me a status seeker, not looking for praise and just continues doing his work – trying to find way to cure through his non-controversial method of stem cell research, while also advocating for full funding for embryonal stem cell research.
3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
A: Sure, LoHo and now SPURA. I was called all kinds of names by community advocates who hate the idea of the Lower East Side gentrifying, and seek to place blame for it. Rather than looking at the facts, the history and the trends, they attacked the person who began the trend and offered that as their reasons for wanting the article deleted. I was called a shill, a marketer for the real estate guy, etc, all denying my true and genuine ties and ideas for the Lower East Side or LoHo – a place and an ideal that I have been working hard for most of my life. One writer who was not angry at the source, but who missed the point, encapsulated what I think was the overriding sense that leas to the articles deletion. She wrote something like this, ‘I think the realtor is a decent guy, but I don’t want my neighborhood called LoHo.’ Unfortunately, like the person who began it or not, people’s feelings on what they like and don’t like carried the day, and the facts were ignored. That was an unfortunate fight and loss, LoHo will be back, and soon, as you can’t stop the freight train barreling down the track. My article lost to people’s emotions. Here is a shining example of where being right doesn’t win the argument.
I deal with it by either bolstering the article the best I can, finding sources and references to help. In the end, try again through legal methods and move on. There’ll be other articles to edit, originate and fight over. As for LoHo, I live there, I see the movement daily and know that the tide will continue to roll in.

For SPURA, I think – and said so – that the editor who asked to delete the page simply lumped it with the LoHo argument, as he said – see other page that user created… That too, I will edit, add citations and hopefully win that one. We’ll see where else he goes to follow my work. I am a diplomat, but an avid follower of politics. Coming from a political background, I know when an argument is truth based or opinion based. The ultimate test is to get the facts to stand over the emotions.

General comments
See Judae1's edit summary usage with mathbot's tool. For the edit count, see the talk page.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Discussion

Support

Oppose

Oppose. You don't need to be an admin to cleanup articles. --Majorly (talk) 17:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose While I don't believe in editcountitis, 442 total edits confirms the lack of understanding of how Wikipedia works currently demonstrated at DRV diff. GRBerry 17:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose, suggest withdawal, yadayadayada. Not enough overall experience but you look like you're on the right track. Try again in 3-4 months, and start participating in XfD.--Wizardman 17:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose Demonstrated lack of understanding of Wikipedia goals and guidelines in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/LoHo. Valuable editor and potentially good candidate in time, but for now, the the misrepresentation/misunderstanding of the Afd debate shows inability/unwillingness to compromise and see opposing view. Ytny 17:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. I don't think you need the tools, or understand fully what being an administrator is; "it is a level of authority and responsibility" is looking at it the wrong way. Trebor 18:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Neutral

The above adminship discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the talk page of either this nomination or the nominated user). No further edits should be made to this page.

[jewishwhistleblower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_January

LoHo – Deletion endorsed, redirect set editorially – trialsanderrors 05:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the article above. Please do not modify it.
LoHo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|AfD)
I believe that the administrator allowed people's personal bias to interfere with the rational approach to this debate. The fact that people disagree with the tactics that caused the name LoHo to come into play 10 years ago do not take away the fact that it indeed has come into play. Juda S. Engelmayer 15:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Overturn The decision was biased and did not account for the name's real use and notoriety.Juda S. Engelmayer 15:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (Duplicate removed)
Endorse deletion. Valid AfD; consensus was that the name is not notable. Saying "Yes it is!" isn't grounds to overturn it. If you have sources establishing notability that were not mentioned, it's fine, but you do not. -Amark moo! 15:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Overturn I fail to understand why an entry is rejected because its origins can be traced to a commercial source. The term LoHo has been in use well before LoHo Realty existed, it is part of the names of several establishments and it is a legitimate reference to a distinct geographic area. By deleting it the editors of this service are saying it isn't there; indeed they are endeavoring to make it not be there. Does not compute. YyanoverYyanover
It implies no such thing. The mere fact of existing doesn't warrant a Wikipedia article; third-party articles in reliable sources do. ColourBurst 21:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Endorse deletion Close was in accordance with the guideline WP:NEO, which requires secondary sources about the term before we cover it. It was also within reasonable admin discretion even if that guideline didn't govern the outcome. GRBerry 16:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment as closer - won't endorse myself, but the consensus was clear. Proto::► 16:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment as Originator I did not realize it was a consensus vote. I thought if you showed that it was in use (in 20 articles), it demonstrated viability. Were the references ignored and only the consensus adhered to? Juda S. Engelmayer 16:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Endorse deletion. If the "20 articles" were from reliable sources and documented the name as being in wide use, rather than minor passing mentions and blog postings and one article mentioning this as a neologism, and if anything demonstrated that the term has been influential in anything except naming one agency, then the references would have overruled any number of "delete" votes that didn't give a valid policy reason. The consensus of the commenting editors and the closing admin was that those references were not sufficient for WP policy, and I agree. They weren't ignored, they were found not to establish notability. Barno 18:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Endorse Deletion. I see no evidence that the closing admin was swayed by anyone's bias. The admin gave a clear and cogent reason as to why he chose to delete it. Nothing in that reasoning seems to be "irrational". Agent 86 18:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Endorse perfectly reasonable assessment of the debate. I'm struggling to see how Proto "allowed" anything here, all he did was weigh up the arguments, which seem to me to be pretty clearly on the side of deletion. What am I missing here? Guy (Help!) 20:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment. Since I was involved in the AfD debate I won't endorse, but I'm not at all clear what abuse of process User:Judae1 is alleging. It's not that people ignored his wall of footnotes, it's that we didn't agree with him that they supported notability, and he seems to be taking it personally. --Polonius 00:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
reverse for further discussion I did vote to keep in the AfD, on the grounds that neighborhoods with a distinctive name used in newspapers about other than real estate (I don't consider such pages necessarily a RS in these matter) were notable, & this has been. I think it may have been preconceived notions. DGG 01:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment as Afd initiator - I won't endorse one way or the other, but given that WP:NEO is explicit about requiring multiple independent, reliable sources that are about, and not simply mention, the subject, which of the sources listed at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/LoHo verify that LoHo a widely recognized name and/or the topic isn't redundant with Lower East Side, Manhattan? The Miami Herald/KC Star piece seems to come the closest, but the others either aren't RS or mention LoHo in passing (and one doesn't mention the neighborhood at all, referring instead to Lindsay Lohan and a club in MePa). Mosmof 03:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC) MePa?
Lotus in on Clinton St at Attorney. 207.237.54.86 03:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You're thinking of the Lotus Lounge at Clinton and Stanton (Clinton and Attorney don't intersect). The blog post in question is talking about Lotus, Lindsay Lohan's (or "Lindsay LoHo-Ho-Ho-Han") hangout on 14th. Mosmof 03:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Would it be valid to redirect to Lower East Side, Manhattan? --NE2 08:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious about that - a part of me thinks, since it's a duplicative topic, it makes sense and it can't do any harm. But I also have to ask, if the LoHo term fails WP:NEO, wouldn't you not use the term, and wouldn't this legitimize the term as much as an article space would? Ytny 13:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment to Ytny "wouldn't you not use the term, and wouldn't this legitimize the term...?" The term is already in use, article space or not. Your question can be interpreted as yielding to those opposed to the term itself for whatever reason. While not on the same scale, it is like taking a poll of those who like the name "Hell's Kitchen" and deciding that it does not merit mention, even though well established and used, because people don't like it. Or, to be more political, and also to a considerably lesser degree, it is tantamount to American voters who do not like the current admininistration and therefore say, "he's not my president." Well, yes he is. Same here. I would think mention of the name on the Lower East Side page would be a decent compromise, and would acknowledge, that while some of the references may not be from what Wiki considers reliable sources, they are not shills set up for this article, and they are a representation of how the many among the New Lower East Siders feel.Juda S. Engelmayer 14:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand my point. I guess "legitimize" was the wrong term, but it's too early in the day for me to think of a better term. Anyway, there would be no issue with "Hell's Kitchen", or even its new dastardly new moniker, "Clinton", because both names have been the subject of multiple books and articles from reliable sources. And multiple, non-trivial sources have established that George W. Bush is in fact my president.
It may be true that "LoHo" is widely used, but remember that Wikipedia isn't interested in the truth; its only interest is verifiability. President Bush and Hell's Kitchen (and Clinton) meet the tests for notability, LoHo doesn't.
As for the mentions, I don't want to be draconian about WP, but the WP:NEO has been established for a good reason and I think it applies in this case. The vast majority of the mentions aren't RS, and given the amount of press and blogospheric coverage the neighborhood receives every day, I'm not sure if the cited sources amount to much more than a drip in the bucket. If you're going to go against a well established policy, there should be a very compelling reason, and I have yet to hear one.
Also, I don't think a mention in the Lower East Side article wouldn't be a terrible idea, but it'll depend on the context. What you're suggesting seems to resort to original research. Again, what is the compelling reason to go against policy? Ytny 15:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. That was clear and probably the most informative reply I have seen on this.Juda S. Engelmayer 17:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Endorse deletion This was in process and sources were discussed and determined to be insufficient to meet the guidelines. People did get a little upset about the spamminess of the article, but that does not change the fact that the reasoning for deletion was sound. Plus, you cannot start a food fight and try to stick WP with the dry cleaning bill. JChap2007 00:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment I tried a Google News search of the term LoHo, and there was a relevant hit 3 days ago from The New York Observer, an actual newspaper, but... it was documenting Wikipedia's recent deletion of the LoHo article! I thought this was an interesting case of a technical RS that obviously doesn't count, but for all I know there's already a definitive policy on such circular referencing. --gwc 21:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
It sounds like that wouldn't count as a source about LoHo under the notability policy because the source is about the article and not about LoHo itself. JChap2007 03:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, it's from the NYO Real Estate blog, not NYO proper. It's more reputable than the average blog, but it still takes the "Take what I say with a grain of salt" approach that most blogs take. Plus, since they operate by relaying reader tips and news in other media outlets, they're only reliable as their sources are. I've written for a site within a fairly notable blog network, and the primary concerns are drawing traffic and meeting the daily quota, journalistic standards be damned. Ytny 07:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment **The Village Voice, not sure if it is a Reliable Source, had a story called LES is more, and it talks about the "boutiquification" of Loho. See this link Village Voice, LES Is More, by Sarah Ferguson, March 22 - 28, 2000. It states,

"He limits his study to the area south of 14th Street and north of Houston, ignoring the recent boutiquification of the old Jewish quarter south of Houston, dubbed "Loho," where an Orchard Street condo just sold for $1.1 million."
While it is stil not the feature on the name, it is about the neighborhood and mentions "dubbed Loho" Juda S. Engelmayer 18:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Alas, Loho will still remain the name of a place, if only a fictional colony in the fantasy world of Wayard. For now, while easily accesible by the "F" Train, it will have to be thought of as place on the continent of Anagra's west coast that can only be accessed by ship. I do appreciate the effort and time here, and do believe that you'll see it again arise as a place that doesn't only exist in fantasy or for real in the Barangay of Lagonoy, Camarines Sur, province in the Philippines. New York awaitsJuda S. Engelmayer 19:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
You still seem confused about Wikipedia's basic principles. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. That something exists or is true is not enough of a reason to include it in Wikipedia.
For example, my girlfriend exists (really!), and that she doesn't have her own Wikipedia article doesn't change the fact. But if she does get a profile in NY Times and Bob Woodward pens her bio, then she's probably going to get herself a Wikipedia article. In fact, even if my girlfriend didn't exist (but she does, I swear!), she'd actually get herself a Wiki article if the Economist and Time wrote feature articles about my imaginary girlfriend. Why? Because my imaginary girlfriend is notable enough for reliable journalists, people whose job depends on knowing what is and isn't notable, to waste their precious time and energy writing about her.
The point I'm making with this admittedly far fetched example is that existence or truthfulness is irrelevant. The key is notability. When something is notable, notable media will talk about it. And this is why Narnia (world), a land of make believe, has an article, and LoHo, a real life location, doesn't. It doesn't matter that one is more real or important than others.
As for your specific example, I don't see how the Village Voice article helps your case. Notice that the writer left "LoHo" in quotes, which I interpreted to mean that she doesn't really think the name is established. You might disagree, but that's precisely the point - if it's open to interpretation, then it's not verifiable. And the phrase "dubbed 'LoHo'" can easily be read to mean, "dubbed 'LoHo' by realtors, but not too many others". Again, you might disagree, which is why Wikipedia demands multiple independent sources talking about the subject, so there's no room for interpretation. Ytny 00:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[reader]

jewishwhistle blower: why do you insist upon obnoxiously spamming the comments section of this blog? You have done this on so many entries. You are a serial spammer here. It gets really irritating.

Shorten posts maybe? Or just put links??? I have made comments on this before and you just ignore. What is your deal?

[Anonymous]

Someone has way too much time on their hands.

Like who gives a crap what he says about bagels, bialys, or Loho.

Like we'd rather see pictures of Lohan.

JWB, get a life.

Seriously, take some meds.

[mordecai]

This stuff is really hilarious. This "intern" gets around. I would suspect more of these false postings will be discovered in upcoming days showing the phantom intern at work from all sorts of different locales.

[John K. Diamond]

[This stuff is really hilarious. This "intern" gets around. I would suspect more of these false postings will be discovered in upcoming days showing the phantom intern at work from all sorts of different locales.

Posted by: mordecai | July 11, 2008 at 04:56 AM]

This is getting more interesting by the day and could be the subject of a Blockbuster Movie.

But after the Rubashkin Titanic sinks, with their supporters on board, we need to consider the Holy Work in seeing that the Kosher Animal Foods Agribusinesses be reformed, so that ALL of G-d's Laws, relative to utilizing His innocent creatures for food, are obeyed.

Here, Rabbi Allen and Uri-L'Tzedek could make a very good cooperative team, along with others.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Excerpts:
http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=6284daf3719c69e37da42cd08a40a90d

Feds Investigating Iowa Company Targeted by ICE

New America Media, News Report , Wendy Feliz Sefsaf , Posted: Jul 11, 2008

WASHINGTON -- The government is upping the ante on investigations into an employer in Postville, Iowa who was raided last month by immigration enforcement authorities.

Agriprocessors, Inc. is now facing much more than the standard stock of immigration violations; they are looking at potentially hundreds of criminal charges that include sexual assault, abuse and child labor violations.
...
According to lawyers in the case and agency representatives, there are likely to be civil charges related to immigration, wage enforcement, safety and other labor issues which usually result in fines, however, criminal charges related to immigration, child labor and sexual harassment and assault are far more serious and potentially wide reaching. Anyone with “knowledge or intent” of child laborers for instance is subject to criminal prosecution — in theory this could include management, human resources representatives and owners alike.
...
Robert Brammer, a spokesman for the Iowa Attorney General’s office confirms they are assisting the Iowa Division of Labor on possible criminal issues, including numerous child labor violations, around Agriprocessors and have been doing so since April.

While county attorneys have first jurisdiction, Brammer confirms the Attorney General’s office was asked to handle the matter. “Immigration issues are not our area, this is about criminal charges,” said Brammer.
...

[jewishwhistleblower]

see: http://gawker.com/tag/5wpr/?i=5024131&t=scheme-to-blame-intern-for-pr-fraud-unravels

Scheme To Blame Intern For PR Fraud Unravels
...
Now would be a good time to recap the various levels of incompetence in this whole 5WPR scheme:

- After being hired for its internet PR expertise, 5WPR attempts to plant fake comments from both supporters and (most deviously) critics of the kosher slaughterhouse on various websites.
- This scheme unravels because the company doesn't bother to leave its office or mask its IP address when posting.
- This scheme also unravels because the company misspells the name of a rabbi when signing a comment in that rabbi's name.
- CEO Ronn [sic] Torossian claims an "investigation" is under way to find out which of his employees spun a laughably incompetent Web of amoral deception in the service of flackery. This time.
- VP Engelmayer, assigned the slaughterhouse account, blames an unnamed, unpaid "intern" for the fraud. Says this "intern" has been fired.
- This story starts to unravel because, as blog Failed Messiah notes, the first two impersonation posts appeared in February, "well before any summer interns were working at 5W." Ahem.
- The story unravels further when two fraudulent Web comments are traced to Engelmayer's apartment.
- "Intern" calls to say he was hanging with Engelmayer at his apartment Tuesday night and slipped, undetected, onto Engelmayer's computer to do some impromptu character assassination, so don't blame Engelmayer because Engelmayer did not do it.
- Probably next: Caller comes forward as a paid shill. Engelmayer said he hired him on behalf of the intern, who is deathly afraid of the press, because that's the sort of person who takes an unpaid PR internship.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I humbly submit my headline for this post:

Agriprocessors' Spokesman Hits Bottom. Digs.

/“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice

[jewishwhistleblower]

see: http://www.prweekus.com/5W-faces-accusation-for-blog-misconduct/article/112308/

5W faces accusation for blog misconduct

[jewishwhistleblower]

What's interesting is that several years back NJ reporter Larry Yudelson tried the same methods to discredit me by impersonating me and posting under my name at the Canonist blog. He was caught due to his IP address and exposed by Steven I. Weiss, the blog owner, who warned him "against any future attempts to impersonate someone else".

Yudelson like Engelmayer has ties to Grand Street News editor Yori Yanover who of course is the king of the smear campaign.
http://www.canonist.com/?p=291
http://www.canonist.com/?p=279

[Anonymous]

JWB's meds ran out.

He lives in a sick fantasy world where people care about the drivel he posts.

No one listens to him.

At least Shmarya has the balls to use his name.

Not so the gutless and spineless JWB.

He spends his days surfing the internet giving his right hand a lot of action.

Because this is the only stuff that turns him on.

And the more people ask him to stop, the more he posts.

It's all part of the underground S&M world he lives in.

Rave on you moron.

Keep spamming this blog.

Make it seem like you have a life.

Go get your prescription refilled.

[Anonymous]

Yudelson like Engelmayer has ties to Grand Street News editor Yori Yanover who of course is the king of the smear campaign.

And maybe Vicki Polin is your mother.

Same level of proof.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Can't you at least pick a proper pseudonym "anonymous"?

I reproduced a link above to the wikipedia forum involved discussion of ties between Engelmayer and Yori Yanover. Must be something in the LoHo water.

[steve]

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2008/06/19/the-missing-ethic/

Several "Gene Warsaw", "Yerucham Stone", and "Robert Zimmerman" posts on Shafran's blog. Shafran, Lubinsky, Engelmeyer, Rubashkin, are all cut from the same corrupted cloth. The worst scum of this earth. Words cannot describe the spiritual and physical destruction these people cause on a daily basis.

[bernice]

What are the "buzz-words" to listen for in any language to know you are getting a knife in your back-big time???????

T-R-R-R-R-UST ME!
Ask Rabbi Weismandel & all the other affiliated Rabbis at Agri including KAJ.

[bernice]

What are the "buzz-words" to listen for in any language to know you are getting a knife in your back-big time???????

T-R-R-R-R-UST ME! (u must roll those RR's)
Ask Rabbi Weismandel & all the other affiliated Rabbis at Agri including KAJ.

[Anonymous-JWB]

Can't you at least pick a proper pseudonym "anonymous"?

I hope you like my new log in.

It's in your honor.

And I'm glad my post forced you to go back and post even more gibberish.

I am your master.

You are the puppet.

I command you to post yet one more stupid asinine Wiki post to "prove" your point.

Do you do needle drugs or just put white powder up your nose?