BREAKING! 5WPR Caught Again – Agriprocessors' PR Firm Continues Unethical Online Behavior

Agriprocessors PR firm, outed here for impersonating Rabbi Morris Allen of Hechsher Tzedek and leaving many sockpuppet comments, is still at it.

The same IP address, 64.52.47.210, used to leave the fake Rabbi Allen comments here is also being used even now to make edits to 5WPR CEO Ronn Torossian's Wikipedia entry. This would appear to be a violation of Wikipedia's user guidelines and is certainly unethical.

The proof follows. Please click each image to enlarge.

The Wikipedia user contributions page for IP address 64.52.47.210:

The two edits made July 14, 2008 are to Ronn Torossian's Wikipedia entry. This is a clear conflict of interest and the user who made these edits does not identify himself as affiliated with 5WPR.

More than that, these bogus edits were made six days after being caught impersonating Rabbi Morris Allen and leaving sockpuppet comments here that spanned months.

You can see that Wikipedia editors have flagged Torossian's entry for reading like a press release and for possible conflict of interest.

Here is a screenshot of Torossian's Wikipedia entry:

Here is IP address 64.52.47.210 used to illegally impersonate Rabbi Morris Allen and sockpuppet:

(You can see all the documents proving the 5WPR link to this IP here.)

And here is the registry of IP 64.52.47.210:

The owner of IP address 64.52.47.210 is 5W Public Relations. In other words, Torossian, Engelmayer & Company are still at it.

And Agriprocessors – and various arms of the Israeli government and Members of Knesset, along with Jewish organizations like the Zionist Organization of America, and starlets like Paris Hilton – are still employing them.

Here you can see a Wikipedia page dealing with the Torossian edits. On it, a Wikipedia contributor to the Torossian page uses what is thought to be a 5WPR-linked IP (this is not yet proven) claim "anti-religious" elements are out to get them:

And here is the Wikipedia history of that suspect IP address, 207.237.137.37. Note all edits seem to be on pages directly related to 5WPR or its clients:

UPDATE 7-16-08 11:10 CDT – GAWKER picks up this story and carries it a bit further. Here is one of 5WPR's edits of Torossian's Wikipedia entry. The text highlighted in yellow was deleted by 5WPR:

Here is what 5WPR deleted:

In July 2008, his firm 5WPR was proven to have impersonated critics of a client and to have made phony comments on a blog in other people's names. The firm at first denied the allegations, then blamed the phony comments on an intern it claimed was fired. It was soon proven that the phony comments were in fact made from the offices of 5WPR as well as from the home of a Senior Vice President for the firm named Juda Engelmayer. Engelmayer claimed that the alleged renegade intern operated from his home as well as the office without his knowledge. The coverup soon unraveled and Torossian issued a statement acknowledging his firm's unethical practices. At least one person who was impersonated by 5WPR has stated his intention to sue the firm. It remains to be seen whether any criminal charges can or will be brought against Engelmeyer, Torossian or anyone else at 5WPR. http://www.forward.com/articles/13759/

Ethical behavior does not seem to be a 5WPR strong suit.

The post that broke the story.

The post that broke the story, part 2.

Agriprocessors / Rubashkin mistreatment of workers and related issues.

Rubashkin / Agriprocessors index page.

Previous 5W Scandal Posts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18.

[Hat Tip: Stephen Mendelson with a special mention to JWB for first posting his suspicions about 5WPR's Wikipedia edits in the comments section to another FailedMessiah.com post.]

Comments

[perception battle]

as you battle your cry-babbying war on agriprocessors - we wonder more and more what is really wrong with you. BOO HOO

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

Actually, there are at least two other 5W sockpuppets (207.237.137.37 and Emetman) editing and, in a number of cases, vandalizing through deletions the 5W Public Relations and Ronn Torossian pages on Wikipedia. It all started late last week when I edited the 5W PR page to add relevant and well-sourced material about 5W's online behavior both here and at JTA, trying as best I could to keep within Wikipedia's neutral point of view guidelines. When I checked back after Shabbat, it had been deleted by IP address 207.237.137.37; I checked this through DNSstuff, which gave the city as New York, NY. I immediately suspected a 5W sockpuppet. I started researching the edits of this page of Wikipedia and other info to see if I could prove this IP belonged to 5W. On Monday evening and Tuesday morning, an edit war broke out between Wikipedians who work to police the site for vandalism on one side, trying to restore my edit and flag the site for conflict of interest and promotional tone / news release, and the two 5W sockpuppets mentioned above, which I now believe to be Ronn Torossian himself. The edits by these two sockpuppets deal almost exclusively with the 5W and Ronn Torossian pages, the pages of 5W clients, and adding Torossian to a list of notable graduates of Stuyvesant High School, his alma mater. There was an exchange on the Ronn Torossian article talk page, with one editor clearly disturbed by all the deleting, and comments by both Torossian sockpuppets, one attacking this blog. See at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ronn_Torossian

Tuesday night, I noticed that these three sockpuppets were being reported after all of the repeated deletions and violations of the 3-revert-rule and shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser#Emetman

I immediately checked the IP address 64.52.47.210 against the earlier post here on Failed Messiah and it was an exact match. Hopefully all three of these 5W sockpuppets will soon be blocked from editing Wikipedia, and the administrators will be aware of any other attempts to grossly misuse the site.

It should also be pointed out that, based on the history tabs, the 5W and Ronn Torossian pages were initially edited by Juda Engelmayer, (User: Judae1 on Wikipedia), an open conflict of interest.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

Actually, there are at least two other 5W sockpuppets (207.237.137.37 and Emetman) editing and, in a number of cases, vandalizing through deletions the 5W Public Relations and Ronn Torossian pages on Wikipedia. It all started late last week when I edited the 5W PR page to add relevant and well-sourced material about 5W's online behavior both here and at JTA, trying as best I could to keep within Wikipedia's neutral point of view guidelines. When I checked back after Shabbat, it had been deleted by IP address 207.237.137.37; I checked this through DNSstuff, which gave the city as New York, NY. I immediately suspected a 5W sockpuppet. I started researching the edits of this page of Wikipedia and other info to see if I could prove this IP belonged to 5W. On Monday evening and Tuesday morning, an edit war broke out between Wikipedians who work to police the site for vandalism on one side, trying to restore my edit and flag the site for conflict of interest and promotional tone / news release, and the two 5W sockpuppets mentioned above, which I now believe to be Ronn Torossian himself. The edits by these two sockpuppets deal almost exclusively with the 5W and Ronn Torossian pages, the pages of 5W clients, and adding Torossian to a list of notable graduates of Stuyvesant High School, his alma mater. There was an exchange on the Ronn Torossian article talk page, with one editor clearly disturbed by all the deleting, and comments by both Torossian sockpuppets, one attacking this blog. See at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ronn_Torossian

Tuesday night, I noticed that these three sockpuppets were being reported after all of the repeated deletions and violations of the 3-revert-rule and shown here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser#Emetman

I immediately checked the IP address 64.52.47.210 against the earlier post here on Failed Messiah and it was an exact match. Hopefully all three of these 5W sockpuppets will soon be blocked from editing Wikipedia, and the administrators will be aware of any other attempts to grossly misuse the site.

It should also be pointed out that, based on the history tabs, the 5W and Ronn Torossian pages were initially edited by Juda Engelmayer, (User: Judae1 on Wikipedia), an open conflict of interest.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

This is only the tip of the iceberg of what 5W has been doing to spam Wikipedia. More later ...

[yidandahalf]

Stephen's acumen is dead on. A frightening situation these 5W fools have brought about and continue to build upon. Great for us though. As the saying goes "If they had brains they'd be dangerous." And to use Sarah's question "Where do they find these people?" BTW, where has she been? Wish you would come back and post of a time, Sarah. You are a great read.

[John K. Diamond]

5W's continuing (unethical/illegal) activities will make it much easier for a Federal Court to convict the parties responsible and send them away somewhere.

[John K. Diamond]

Yidandahalf,

A favor, if it's possible.

Mr. Drosai has left his usual posts slamming me on the other blog, where you said some very nice things about me, which were much appreciated.

I'm not answering his invectives, having given him one month to become very well educated about Animal Welfare and Vegetarianism from an Orthodox perspective from two very reliable sources.

His posts were most unfortunate, as they interrupted a very valuable discussion we were having on setting up Truly Humane and Sustainable Kashrut standards in the US relative to animal foods.

If time permits, please respond appropriately.

Many thanks,

John

[yidandahalf]

John, you mean another thread, right? Will do my best. If it's another blog, please advise.

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Yidandahalf,

It's on the other thread. Sorry.

Again, many thanks,

John

[Marci Hamilton]

I know this is off topic, yet I thought the following video is important for everyone to watch. The film is law professor Marci Hamilton talking about the need for bills to pass in each state abolishing the statute of limitations on allowing those who were sexually abused as children having their day in court.

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9480&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No

[Marci Hamilton]

I forgot to mention you have to click on the red button on the upper right hand side to start the presentation.

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9480&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No

[Yochanan Lavie]

People know that Wikipedia is not that reliable as a source for contemporary things. It's okay if you look up something like Existential philosophy, but nothing controversial where posters have an ax to grind. It's not illegal to spam Wikipedia; I just wish they would be more transparent about who their sources are, so the reader can judge for him/herself- like a the end of the article rather than at a lookup page.

[Paul Freedman]

I'm still stuck on the Paris Hilton bit.

Oh, here's her Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Hilton

Like Al Gore she grew up in hotels and achieved celebrity.

[Archie Bunker]

Has anyone tipped off Gawker and PR Week?

[yanqui]

Echoing Yochanan's point:

Um, not that I have any brief for Torossian, but Wikipedia policy on biographies tends to look more leniently at changes in one's own biographical information. Looking at the recent edit history, these edits are exactly that - putting in and taking out the discoveries that have been reported on this blog.

Also, looking at the edit history, Engelmayer wrote the initial version of the article 2 years ago. So he may feel a certain ownership of the article, and how it portrays himself and his employer.

It looks like a typical Wiki edit war - the person's enemies want the latest negative information in, the person's allies want the latest negative information out.

Wikipedia is a lawless frontier. People can protest changes in terms of Wikipedia policy on "neutral point of view" etc., but there's little to no enforcement. Wales (the founder) seems to want it that way. He too has gotten into the national media for having edited his own biographical information. Look at some of the edit wars on controversial topics, such as biographical information on the Lubavitcher Rebbe and his family.

As for changing his clients' entries? It's a public relations firm. They are paid to manage their clients' public image, part of which is their presentation in Wikipedia. I'd be surprised if a PR firm didn't have a hand in managing their clients' visibility on the Web.

[Shmarya]

Please.

Torossian or Engelmayer could make those edits – if they did so openly and brought sources, etc.

Instead, they did so hiding behind the cover of anonymity, and did so in violation of Wikipedia's guidelines.

Remember, "yanqui," they used this editing power to both remove unflattering but true information – like 5WPR's use of sockpuppetry and its impersonation of Rabbi Morris Allen.

THis is completely dishonest. 5W was caught red handed and has admitted the crimes on one had, but has worked to supress them on the other.

[yanqui]

I can't change how you feel, but I do think, that in your quest to find fault with these parties, that you are finding faults that a lot of others wouldn't find blameworthy.

Amazon lets authors do the same thing, you know. If there are a lot of negative reviews of a book, the author is allowed to remove them.

There was just such an edit war over the English translation of Raziel - one reviewer kept posting that the author clearly didn't know Hebrew, because of errors in the translation of the title page, and the author repeatedly deleted the negative reviews.

Just because it's not on your side, doesn't make it unethical. Like a law firm's ethics are to defend their clients, a PR firm's ethics are to play up their clients. And no person or firm wants negative information about them posted in a forum where they have some control over content.

Torossian & Co have no control over what you post here, or what the media pick up from here and broadcast even wider. Let them have their own control over their own image. It's not unethical to put oneself in as positive a light as possible.

You have allegations. You have claims. They have a reputation, and no charges have yet been filed, nor have convictions been made. Posting this stuff on Torossian's web page then does not promote Wikpedia's vaunted "neutral point of view", it just promotes your side. And where living persons are concerned, there is more leeway on the side of the person in question.

Look at, for instance, Winiarz' Wikipedia entry - it displays both the accusations and the defenses, preserving neutrality.

Also, note what it says at the top of Torossian's wiki entry: "The creator of this article, or someone who has substantially contributed to it, may have a conflict of interest regarding its subject matter." That holds true both of him and of your supporters.

Even the current version (11.38 AM) is biased against him, while not having any mention of the current controversy, by only listing three controversial Christian institutions as his clients, without all his other corporate and governmental clients of all persuasions.

The controversy section that was removed says "proven in July 2008 that..." Perhaps better would be "alleged", or "evidence came out that..." "Proven" is a very strong word.

You did clearly demonstrate what they did. I don't think anyone can deny that. But it's all image control at this point - and that's their business. Would you tell everyone you met "unflattering but true information" about yourself? Probably not.

Not that they wouldn't delete that as well, but I don't see it as such a betrayal of ethics to not throw negative information about oneself in others' faces. Even Hester Prynne only wore the scarlet letter after being convicted of adultery.

And "unflattering but true information" is still ethically problematic - it's the definition of lashon hara.

Wiki looks down on bringing blogs as evidence of anything. So if the evidence comes from you, it's not too credible to them. That the MSM picked up on it helps.

[Shmarya]

Torossian & Co have no control over what you post here, or what the media pick up from here and broadcast even wider. Let them have their own control over their own image. It's not unethical to put oneself in as positive a light as possible.

Please.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Torossian's personal PR page.

Wikipedia has standards. 5wPR has clearly violated those standards.

I'd also note Torossian & Co. had no difficulty abusing posting privileges here by leaving copious fake comments and impersonating opponents of Agriprocessors, and 5WPR did that elsewhere, as well.

Process that.

[yanqui]

Torossian seems incredibly cynical, looking at the Talk page for the entry. Any means necessary to defend kashrut? Only if you don't get caught. If you do get caught, it does more harm than good.

On the other hand, the version of the story that is now present on the "5W Public Relations" Wiki page seems much more neutral than the version that was deleted from Torossian's page. It says "accused of", not "proven", and Torossian's/Engelmayer's response, however weak, as well as the admissions of corporate guilt, are quoted.

And the sources are entirely in the MSM, not this blog.

That's the way to deal with it.

[yidandahalf]

Yanqui, it has been demonstrated time and again that overly long shtus like you post for the most part, goes unread. I mean, I could give a f**k, but what is wrong with you people? It's either some bochers following their hands around or windbags.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

There is at least one more 5W sockpuppet on Wikipedia, going by the name "Emetman" involved in deleting similar information on the 5W Public Relations and Ronn Torrosian pages. The attempts by Torossian and 5W to control their Wikipedia pages actually goes beyond what is posted above. They may be acquiring another Wikipedia sockpuppet at this moment. More will be coming out ...

[yanqui]

Please.

I'm not denying your demonstrations of his company's guilt, or his own partial admissions.

I'm just saying that not everybody agrees with every opinion you have, and that yes, one's personal Wiki biography page is, to some extent, PR for oneself, and that that fact is recognized by the Wikipedia ethical guidelines. Read them yourself, since I don't see that you have yet.

You go too far in accusing them of violating Wikipedia ethics in trying to portray themselves in a non-negative light. Although for that sort of thing, no, there's no reason for them to hide behind anonymity, since it is in line with Wiki guidelines. Guilty conscience, maybe?

Stephen:

Yes, someone accuses "Emetman" of being Torossian himself on the Wikipedia talk page for the Torossian article. Of course the accuser remains anonymous as well...

Yid 1.5:

So? I don't like short punchy accusations filled with invective and obscenity. I'll stick with nuanced posts expressing some sympathy for the accused, while admitting that there's strong evidence that they did what they did.

I'd rather try to find z'chus for both sides.

If you don't want to read it, that's your call.

[Archie Bunker]

"Emetman"?

Sheker-man is more like it.

[Shmarya]

I'm just saying that not everybody agrees with every opinion you have, and that yes, one's personal Wiki biography page is, to some extent, PR for oneself,

Poor yanqui sockpuppet doesn't even understand something as simple as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Help#Commenting_and_editing_on_the_Wikipedia_pages_yourself

The best approach for simple corrections in this situation, is to correct the article only in ways that any reasonable person can agree is fair, and always drop a note on the "discussion" page to explain that you are the subject and you have corrected this or that, for whatever reason.

Examples of simple corrections that can be done this way and will often work well – removing obvious vandalism, improving grammar and 'flow', correcting errors of fact (you will need to have verifiable sources that can be cited so others will be able to check your corrections are appropriate), and removing sections that grossly unbalance the biography and which are not justified by any encyclopedic need. If there is actual privacy-related information you want permanently deleted rather than just corrected, please ask for help.

If you do decide to edit your own article (or articles on topics closely related to you such as your business, band, group, or similar) please see the important section below for more.…

Wikipedia has a guideline on conflict of interest, and on editors writing their own autobiographical articles. These are worth reading.

In brief, users who are personally connected to a topic are expected to leave their biases "at the door". This is expected even if the article is about you, and even if it has been vandalized. This can be hard for some people, even so, it is expected. Fixing a problematic article is good; asking others to fix it is good too. Fixing it with bias, or in the sense of "I want my biography to read this way", can be problematic.

In such circumstances it is important to read carefully the guideline on conflict of interest and that on autobiographies. If you want to do more than remove a clear and obvious breach of the above content policies, then ask others to help.

Process, sockpuppet:

5WPR violated Wikipedia's rules and did so repeatedly and knowingly.

[Archie Bunker]

Has anyone tried comparing the IP from Lubinsky's emails to the other sockpuppets? That may be the missing link.

The same goes for Rubashkin family members.

[Shmarya]

Please forward a Lubinsky email or two to me and we'll see.

Yanqui takes the high road. What a leap.

[yidandahalf]

The above was me. I'm in a self-critical mood, post some more, Yanqui.

[first time visitor, not clever enough to come up with an acronym]

To give you an update, the two IP addresses, as well as the sockpuppet "Emetman" were temporarily blocked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Emetman

It looks like no one bothered to look up Juda's main account, or the multitude of sockpuppets that edited the pages, but whatevs.

[first time visitor, not clever enough to come up with an acronym]

Crap, I screwed up my name. Pseudonym, not acronym.

[rebitzman]

++Here is what 5WPR deleted++

So......

Did you put it back?

[Sarah]

Hi Yidandahalf and all,
Thanks for your nice post. Have been busy with bikkur cholim for a few members of my havurah so haven't gotten to post anything but have been following carefully and e-mailing Shmarya with anything I read elsewhere that could be important.
Our boy Ronn boasts of watching the Hiltons dance on a table at a house he rented at Sundance. Wonder what they were wearing and how this squares with the modesty issue M.O. men claim to observe. Think Ronn recorded it for any of his other clients to watch?
This company and its p.r. firm is a match made in Heaven that will end up in hell.
L'shalom,
Sarah aka Yidandaquarter

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

Please note the new warning on the User talk page for the 5W IP 64.52.47.210 here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:64.52.47.210

First time visitor -- Thanks for the update. Most of the other editors were more professional Wikipedians trying to restore the deleted material, or flagging the articles for conflict of interest and corporate promotionalism, or refining to get the promotionalism out, especially of the Ron Torossian page. I was actually the first editor, on the 5W page inserting the material about 5W's behavior on this and other J-blogs.