When Rabbis Turn Halakha Into Superstition, Part 2

Last month, I wrote about the outbreak of shigella, an intestinal infection, in haredi communities in Brooklyn. The disease spread through poor hand washing and, as I pointed out last month, haredim – especially hasidim – are…

…at a much higher risk of shigella than the average New Yorker – so much so that the NYC Department of Health put out a special notice for haredim:

The Health Department today notified Orthodox Jewish residents of the Borough Park and Williamsburg communities in Brooklyn of an ongoing outbreak of shigella, an intestinal infection. So far this year, the two communities have had more than 150 cases of shigella, more than half of them among very young children. In the hardest-hit area – zip code 11219 – 60 people have been infected.

The Health Department is working with community leaders, including rabbis and City Council members, to raise awareness of the outbreak and to provide advice on prevention.

Shigella is a bacterial infection which is spread when food or water become contaminated with microscopic amounts of fecal matter from an infected person. It spreads when people do not wash hands well enough and have a tiny amount of infected stool on their hands, after using the bathroom or changing a diaper. Symptoms include diarrhea, fever, nausea and cramps. Shigella infections can last several weeks, and people typically recover without treatment. Antibiotics should only be given for severe cases as the shigella bacteria causing the outbreak in Brooklyn are already resistant to many common antibiotics. To avoid spreading the infection, people who are sick should drink plenty of fluids to prevent dehydration and should stay home from work or school until they are better. If you think you may be infected, call your doctor.

Because shigella spreads through fecal matter, prevention requires washing hands frequently and carefully with soap and warm, running water. Everyone should wash their hands for 20 seconds after using the toilet or changing diapers, and before eating or preparing food. If residents perform ritual hand washing (Asher Yatsar) after using the bathroom, they should also wash their hands with soap and warm water.…

Warm water on Shabbos? Of course not. Even more so, as I noted last month, what the NYC Department of Health has to contend with is not rational:

…So the [hand washing] cup is used to to remove evil spirits that somehow will not come off with regular hand washing.

People could try to get around this health problem (a.k.a. a sakana) by first washing their hands with soap and water and then washing ritually.

But many haredim refuse to use any soap – even diluted liquid soap – on Shabbat. They consider it a violation of Shabbat law. I remember being told even Rabbi Moshe Feinstein said (and I paraphrase) "I don't see how liquid soap is permissible." I think Rav Moshe then goes on to find a way to, reluctantly, permit it.

So this superstition with no Torah source takes precedence in some corners of the haredi world over real health issues, issues that are governed by clear halakha with a Torah source.

So you're at a haredi family's home for Shabbat. You use the liquid soap. So you're safe, right?

Wrong.

As long as one person there does not use soap and correctly wash their hands, the bacteria, if present in that person, can easily be spread to everyone else.

Note the areas of outbreak are heavily hasidic.

The more Litvish areas seem to have largely escaped the outbreak. This is most likely because, when faced with clear medical evidence, most Litvish poskim (rabbinic judges, so to speak) will choose to heed medical advice and avoid danger, just as halakha demands.

Hasidim and Hungarian non-hasidic haredim, on the other hand, are far more concerned with custom and superstition. Just as these rabbis refused to stop metzitza b'pe despite evidence of clear danger, they will probably refuse to take the steps necessary to stop this outbreak.

The purveyors of toilet tissue, Preparation H and other necessities to Brooklyn's haredim can look forward to a very profitable Spring.

Of course, I was attacked for writing this. The basic claim against me was a perceived lack of proof that the disease was really limited to haredi communities. There was also the idea that, once the disease had been publicized, haredim would take steps to curtail transmission, so I had no right to criticize.

Enter reality in the form of a news report from the Journal News:

More cases of shigellosis infection reported in Monsey, New Square
BY JANE LERNER
THE JOURNAL NEWS • JUNE 25, 2008

MONSEY - When schools that serve young children in the Jewish community closed for the Passover break in April, Rockland County health officials thought an outbreak of a highly contagious bacterial disease would end.

To their surprise, the number of shigellosis cases among children in Monsey continued to rise. The disease is now being reported in New Square, as well as in New York City and in the town of Monroe in Orange County.

As of yesterday, 130 cases of shigellosis have been reported to county health officials, said Dr. Joan Facelle, Rockland's health commissioner.

"Unfortunately, the cycle of transmission has not been broken and we are still seeing more cases," she said.

Only one case of the infectious disease was reported during the first six months of last year, records show. The infection causes diarrhea, often bloody; abdominal cramps; and fever.

All of the current cases occurred in youngsters who attend private Jewish schools in Monsey and New Square. No cases have been reported outside of those communities.

The bacterial disease first was seen among a few children in January, with a majority of the infections occurring in early April.

The bacteria that cause the disease are present in the diarrhea of those infected while they are sick and for as long as two weeks afterward. Most shigella infections are a result of the bacteria passing from stool or soiled fingers of one person to the mouth of another person.

Lack of hand-washing and a failure in basic hygiene -particularly among toddlers who are not fully toilet-trained -cause the disease to spread.

Health officials had hoped that when schools closed for nearly two weeks in late April, no more children would be infected.

The case numbers did go down a little in late April and early May, Facelle said, but the numbers began to rise once children returned to school.

Eighty new cases have been reported since.

Outreach workers with the Health Department have been meeting with community leaders, including rabbis in Monsey and New Square, and visiting schools where cases have been reported.

"Now that the school year is ending, we will make an effort in the summer camps as well," Facelle said.

"We continue to stress the importance of hand-washing," she said, as key to preventing outbreaks.

No deaths have been reported as a result of the infection, Facelle said.

Children younger than 2 who get the infection sometimes develop seizures, according to the national Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

More than 14,000 cases of shigellosis are reported to health officials nationwide yearly, according to CDC figures.

Shigellosis is more common in summer than winter, according to the agency. Children, especially toddlers ages 2 to 4, are the most likely to get shigellosis. Many cases are related to the illness spreading in child-care settings, and many are a result of the illness spreading in families with small children, according to the CDC.

Another contributing factor to the outbreak is how children think and behave. It is difficult to get any child, religious or not, to properly wash their hands – or even to wash them at all.

But haredi parents face a special hurdle.

Ritual washing, like any other man to God halakha or minhag (law or custom), takes precedence over non-religious requirements. So mitzitza b'peh (the oral to genital sucking of the open circumcision wound by the mohel) takes precedence over fears of disease transmission. Hasidic garb is worn even outside the community, making it difficult for hasidim to find employment.

This emphasis on custom even the face of danger or poverty carries over into other areas of daily life – including how things like hand washing is viewed. In the hasidic view, God did not mandate soap. He did, however, mandate a ritual washing cup.

Soap becomes a concession to the goyyim, an afterthought, or something done to keep the visitors from gagging. And children realize this.

Reluctant to wash at all, haredi children I think are more likely to use a ritual washing cup alone rather than go through the trouble of washing twice.

Add to that the Shabbos problem – bar soap is not permitted to be used on Shabbat and many hasidim dislike using liquid soap on Shabbos, seeing its use as halakhicly questionable – after all, there was no liquid soap in pre-WW2 shtetl life. Zeyde never used liquid soap!

This is a problem not only in hasidic communities. Strict Hungarian neo-hasidic communities share hasidism's dislike for anything that is too "modern" – hadash assur min HaTorah, everything new is forbidden.

And so you have an outbreak of a disease that can kill small children and cause seizures in others – all to rid hands of evil spirits that do not even exist.

How positively primitive.

[Hat Tip: Michelle.]

Part 1.

Comments

[Barry]

It may be time to consider whether we should be Shomer Negiah regarding the residents of the Borough Park and Williamsburg.

Using unheated tap water is sufficient for hygiene purposes as it is considered warm (not being so cold or hot as to irritate or damage skin). I do not think the temperature of the water plays any part in combating bacteria.

The problem is use of a keli and non use of soap and not the water temperature.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

and we trust these idiots with our food.
here in our holy city of northern lights (formerly known as hogtown, serious!) , the kashrus enforcement body is very very but really very strict. and one can rest assured his food is kosher b'h.
otherwise, all a suicidal member of the tribe has to do to get shigella or salmonella is to consume a kosher shawarma!
of course, hygiene is not the concern of the occasionall honest kashrus mashgiach, as to the municipal inspectors, who would want to mess around with jews and end up accused of antisemitism?
the question judaism or superstition, reminded me of our friendly lubi neighbourhood tikuntchik (handyman) who was trying to talk me into joining the daily mikve , oh! such a purifying experience he insisted.
i apologised that i can't as my toenails are infected, only to be told that on the contrary, my infection can only be cured in a mikve.
my friendly tikuntchik even maintained that i should not be concerned with the potential risk to others, as they would be protected by the mitzva.
that did it to wean me off the mikva for life.

[steve]

Before you eat in any restaurant, check out the rest room facilities. If there is no soap, then get the heck out of there!

[Archie Bunker]

Has anyone compared statistics with non-Jewish communities? It's probably difficult to contain an outbreak with young children of any background.

Shmarya is also hugely ignorant of the facts concerning the use of hand soap on Shabbos. In 20th century America it was largely the yeshiva crowd who abstained from liquid soap because of Rabbi Feinstein's ruling - unless it was diluted to become very watery. The Chassidish and Hungarian crowds largely followed the ruling of the Debriciner Rav who permits undiluted liquid soap. More recently, many in the yeshiva world have started using undiluted liquid soap based on a ruling permitting it by Shmarya's favorite posek, Rabbi Elyashev. He permits liquid soap unless it so gelled ot hardened that it does not flow.

[Archie Bunker]

I have my own theory how the outbreak started. Many Chassidish adults have filthy habits, the bacteria of which they unwittingly bring home. Many Chassidish shuls provide the same one or two cotton towels to dry hands after the bathroom and before washing for food / learning. These towels are not changed very often. 1000s of people use them and they remain black and smelly for quite some time before being replaced. Adults will not get shigella in as high numbers because they have much stronger immune systems than little kids but they are carriers.

[R]

Archie adults will get gastric deseases.
I think it's the schools though. As the cases of the desease went up when the school opened. So teachers are not making sure the kids are cleaning their hands properly or parents are sending their ill kids into school.

[Abe]

>...because of Rabbi Feinstein's ruling - unless it was diluted to become very watery. The Chassidish and Hungarian crowds largely followed the ruling of the Debriciner Rav who permits undiluted liquid soap. More recently, many in the yeshiva world have started using undiluted liquid soap based on a ruling permitting it by Shmarya's favorite posek, Rabbi Elyashev. He permits liquid soap unless it so gelled ot hardened that it does not flow.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | June 27, 2008 at 08:12 AM <

Snort, howl, LMAO.
More pick and choose fundie Ultra-Orthodox Shtooyot.
Blind passion for idiocy and utter refusal to accept the facts that don't match their fundie prejudices for virtuous suffering. Their rejection of reality has become an outright pathology.
Idiots all.

[Archie Bunker]

Abe, how crude and vulgar of you. Didn't your Mommy teach you not to snort in public?

The bottom line is that there is no halacha-based excuse not to use soap. Even the most stringent authorities allow it if watered down.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

on the subject of soap on the sabbath, an interesting insight (taken from an old article in the Jewish Press by Staff reporter) from Rabbi Michael Azose of CRC Chicago.
"...This automatic assumption that Ashkenaz minhagim represent the most authentic form of Torah Judaism is encountered on a daily basis by Sephardim and by Ashkenazim who have become sensitized to the problem. Rabbi Azose says it can often create awkward situations, particularly when Ashkenazic teachers in day schools and yeshivas presume to speak to Sephardic students about differing customs. .... He experienced this himself some years ago when his son (Rabbi Azose and his wife Bonnie, have three children and three grandchildren) once came home from yeshiva with a question that had dominated the discussion in one of his classes.....
‘His teacher had been writing some of the melachot of Shabbat on the blackboard. My son politely pointed out that according to Sephardic tradition, soap can be used on Shabbat. The teacher, who interestingly enough had been a roommate of mine at Telshe, was certain my son was mistaken. Go home and ask your father,’ he said.
I wrote his teacher a note explaining that Sephardim do indeed permit the use of soap on Shabbat and I included some rulings on the subject by [former Israeli Chief Rabbi] Ovadia Yosef. To his credit, my son’s teacher revised his teaching. But I wonder whether a teacher who didn’t know me would have been as good-natured about being corrected, and as willing to acknowledge that Sephardic practice is just as valid as Ashkenazic."......

I think the health dept should make it mandatory to have un announced inspections of all mens and all mikvaos MUST be registered with city even if it is in a private home .

meant to say all mens and womens mikvaos but most importantly mens

[David Bar-Magen]

Shmarya:

I don't think it's fair to say that superstition is the DIRECT cause of non-hygienic behavior amongst chassidim.

Ritual handwashing itself may be rooted in these beliefs--and the perceived issur of using liquid soap on Shabbas certainly helps it along--but simply citing superstition as the direct cause of the shigella outbreak is a bit too grandiose a statement.

I know I've long been frustrated, in both chassidic and litvishe shuls alike, at the utter lack of liquid soap outside the bathrooms--regardless of whether the day is a Shabbas or a weekday. There are few things more irritating than exiting the bathroom--after blithely assuming that there would be soap--and discovering nothing but water and a ratty towel with which to clean my hands.

Therefore, if I were to pin it on anything, I'd say the only real distinction between the hygienic practices of chassidim versus the litvishe is the frequency of mikva usage by chassidim.

Most men that I've seen in chassidic mikvaot do not shower or clean themselves in any way before using the mikva, and one can imagine how much fecal matter and other body residue must be floating in those murky waters two hours into your average weekday morning.

I'd bet that a stronger regulation of the mikvas would greatly curb the epidemic.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'd bet that a stronger regulation of the mikvas would greatly curb the epidemic.

David Bar M: You are correct, but that would be considered "anti-Semitism." And besides, we don't have to obey American laws anyway, because the USA has no king (sarcastically).

[yudel]

look parse what you will..there is an outbreak of proportion of shigella..somnething not good for any group of kids period.

[Moshe]

"So this superstition with no Torah source"
Are you saying that not using liquis soap on Shabbos is a superstition. Rabbi Feinstein writes that he is unsure whether it violates the prohibion of Memachek-smoothening out. (Igros Moshe Vol.1 OC:113). I don't see what this has to do with superstition.

[Garnel Ironheart]

The root of the problem is that Chazal never discussed Shigella, therefore they don't exist so how can they cause a problem?

[maven]

I think the title should have been "when superstition is turned into halacha", rather than the opposite.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with mikvas, by the way, as this isn't the route of transmission. Its having ten kids running around in a small apartment covered in excrement that leads to these infections. The only outbreak ever associated with mikvas was an isolated viral ocular infection a few years back. Let's solve actual problems rather than venting against innocent traditions.

[David Bar-Magen]

Maven:

I'm not venting. I'm relating the truth. I have been in mikvaot, awash in other mens' body hair and only inches away from what smelled like and most certainly was fecal matter.

I'm not saying that mikvaot are evil, or wrong. I think they should be regulated better, just like hand-washing.

I also think they're a more likely source of fecal contamination than soapless handwashing, which is present in much of the litvishe yeshiva world as well.

The only distinction between the two is the use of mikvaot--ergo, my "venting."

[Abe]

>"So this superstition with no Torah source"
Are you saying that not using liquis soap on Shabbos is a superstition. Rabbi Feinstein writes that he is unsure whether it violates the prohibion of Memachek-smoothening out. (Igros Moshe Vol.1 OC:113). I don't see what this has to do with superstition.

Posted by: Moshe | June 27, 2008 at 12:20 PM <

Double snort, howl, LMAO and a hearty chortle thrown in for good measure.

Hey, how about a prohibition on use of any type toilet tissue on shabbat. Aren't you aware that you're memacheking the fecal matter on your tuchas?
Don't you people appreciate the vast applications of available chumras to assure your entrance to Gan Eden?
Idiots all.

[maven]

David:

I hadn't actually singled you out, but as you volunteer...
Essentially, what I meant to say is that while your concerns are certainly valid, and soap should be available at public utilities such as shuls and mikvas (though I think in many cases its not a religious concern but one of the usual lackadaisical neglect combined with no one wanting to pay for it), when talking about epidemiology of infectious disease, there are well described patterns of spread and case studies of infection. Here it wasn't the mikva population that was affected, but kids, and in day care settings, etc. The fecal-oral route is well known for other infections as well, such as hepatitis, etc.
Seems that shigella doesn't like greenish standing water :)

[Yosef ben Matitya]

"I'm not saying that mikvaot are evil, or wrong. I think they should be regulated better, just like hand-washing. "

sz david,
i think if they have not been regulated yet for 3500 or so years and still related to as filling a holy function while there is no really mitzva applicable for men to do for the last couple of millenia, (nine qav of water in one's shower will do). the system and it's rabbis have a lot to answer for and i am being nice. it is evil to even promote. my heart goes out to the women.
and yes i am a perennially sickened jew that envies the conservative!

[Yosef ben Matitya]

I think I will change my name to Isteniss,
from one of my favorites mishna of (I think) rashbag that excused himself of the prohibition to bathe on Yom Kippur as he is sensitif physically & possibly couldn't stand going around sweaty.
That guy had sure had both brains and balls!

[pure sphardic]

check out this Responsa from the leader of the generation,
Chacham Ovadia's response is in his book Yehave Daat vol 5 siman 50. He clearly states that it is completely permitted for Sepharadim, but for Ashkenazim he mentions there is where to be stringent.
He quotes a newly found Responsa of the Maimanodies that permits using bar soap as well, and proves that this is the opinion of the Gaon MeVilna as well.
The basis of the discussion there is if the reason the Gemara forbids crushing snow is because of Nolad, which would apply to soap as well, or if the reason is a Gezera that they should'nt squeeze juice, which would eliminate any problem with bar soap.
Check out his Teshuva, it's fun to read like usual. His briliance never fails to amaze me

[Junk Science]

Shmarya,

You may as well believe in the old "science" which stated that the earth was square.

Shmarya's assertion that the outbreak in zip code 11219 is related to ritual hand washing is based on his shooting from the hip and his JUNK SCIENCE and is utterly insane.

The article should be titled that this stupidity by Shmaraya is what happens when Shmarya's hatred for Chassidim makes him fake science to "match" his hatred for Frum Jews, especially Chassidim.

The Real Science is as follows:

Scientific Data indicates that hot spots of outbreaks of shigellosis infection can happen at random anywhere on earth. Once it hits an area it can spread very quickly, regardless if Ritual Hand Washing is involved.

There are MILLIONS of hot spots world wide of shigellosis infection and 99.99% of them don't even know what ritual hand washing is and 99.99% of shigellosis infection outbreaks are not among Chassidim and 99.99% of worldwide shigellosis infection is not among Jews at all.

Shmarya was just LUCKY, that since shigellosis infection strikes at random everywhere and can produce LOCALIZED HOT SPOTS, all over the planet earth - today was Shmaray's LUCKY DAY, that by chance it hit a Chassidic Area - so Shmarya can says HURRAY THIS IS MY LUCKY DAY - now I can blame the "snow storm" and Chassidim, somehow.

Furthermore it is a scientific fact that shigellosis infection strikes primarily toddlers and children under 5 years of age!

Such children never practice ritual hand washing, needless to say.

Furthermore, shigellosis infection is even more popular with children who have not even been toilet trained - needless to say such children don't even know what ritual hand washing is!

Real Science proves that the majority of cases of shigellosis infection has nothing to do with Chassidim and the outbreak can affect any area, once it becomes a HOT SPOT, by CHANCE.

Furthermore:

Even if anyone would want to try and find some reasoning for the FREAK CHANCE of the outbreak of shigellosis infection in such an area - the logical conclusion SCIENTIFICALLY and based on STATISTICS is:

Since science establishes that the culprit is not adults (who practice ritual hand washing) but CHILDREN WHO HAVE NOT BEEN TOILET TRAINED yet, it follows logically that any ZIP CODE that has more of such children is more likely to have a higher incidence of such a potential outbreak.

Fact:
Frum Jews have much more children than non-frum Jews.

Chassidim, have much larger families than the Litvishe world since there are much more in the Litvishe world who practice birth control, than by the Chassidim.

If shigellosis infection incidence depends on CHILDREN NOT TOILET TRAINED, then obviously the Chassidim who have more children will likely have more outbreaks.

Proof that shigellosis infection has nothing to do with Ritual Hand Washing:

Outbreaks of shigellosis infection HOT SPOTS by GOYIM, who have no idea what ritual hand washing is - have no Jews and no Chassidim AT ALL in that area:

In TEXAS - In June of this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/one-last-year-corpus-christi-area-has-seen-68-cases-of-shigella-so-far-this-year/

Another second hot spot in TEXAS:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/texas-has-a-shigella-hotspot-in-it-it-is-called-karnes-county/

In IOWA (Ironically NOT at Agree Processors)

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/iowas-scott-county-known-for-round-barns-sees-uptick-in-shigella/

In Arkansas THIS YEAR:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/shigella-is-having-its-way-with-arkansas/

In South Dakota - this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/standing-rock-indian-reservation-is-center-of-shigella-outbreak-in-south-dakota/

[Ed Greenberg]

I have been in four Chabad Houses (all in California) since reading the original post on this, and have always found a little pump bottle of liquid soap in the mens room.

I do not know what was there before this issue came to light.

[steve]

Yehave Daat vol 5 siman 50 deals with excessive leitzanus on Purim. Can you find the correct siman?

Here's what Rabbi Mansour, a Sephardic rabbis writes in regards to the halacha:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=34&ClipID=932

The question was asked if it is permissible to use soap on Shabbat, or would it be considered a transgression of the forbidden Melacha known as ‘MiMacheik’?

There is a lenient opinion, which is that of Rabbi Yitzchak Lampronti (1679-1756) as written in his sefer ‘Pachad Yitzchak’ that says bar soap is permissible on Shabbat. But, that is a single opinion. It is the consensus of most Acharonim including Chacham Ben Tzion, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and Chacham Ovadia Yoseph that it would be more preferable to use soft soap. Today, soft soap is especially easy to come by, and most people in fact already have soft soap in their homes.

There is one point about soft soap however, that must be noted. Chacham Ben Tzion makes it clear that the soft soap should be watered down. He holds that soft soap still has a little thickness to it, and the problem of ‘MiMacheik’ can still exist. ‘MiMacheik’ is the forbidden task on Shabbat of smoothing out or rubbing, which is the basis used by the consensus of Acharonim for restricting use of bar soap on Shabbat in the first place. Chacham Ben Tzion therefore says, it would be proper before Shabbat to prepare diluted soft soap by watering down the soap. This way the soap will not be thick at all but rather free flowing and thus permissible to use.

To review, those who are lenient to use bar soap on Shabbat should not be scolded as they have the Pachad Yitzchak to rely on, but the preferred method is to dilute soft soap in advance in order to avoid any problem.

[Shimon]

Shmarya,

You may as well believe in the old "science" which stated that the earth was square.

Shmarya's assertion that the outbreak in zip code 11219 is related to ritual hand washing is based on his shooting from the hip and his JUNK SCIENCE and is utterly insane.

The article should be titled that this stupidity by Shmaraya is what happens when Shmarya's hatred for Chassidim makes him fake science to "match" his hatred for Frum Jews, especially Chassidim.

The Real Science is as follows:

Scientific Data indicates that hot spots of outbreaks of shigellosis infection can happen at random anywhere on earth. Once it hits an area it can spread very quickly, regardless if Ritual Hand Washing is involved.

There are MILLIONS of hot spots world wide of shigellosis infection and 99.99% of them don't even know what ritual hand washing is and 99.99% of shigellosis infection outbreaks are not among Chassidim and 99.99% of worldwide shigellosis infection is not among Jews at all.

Shmarya was just LUCKY, that since shigellosis infection strikes at random everywhere and can produce LOCALIZED HOT SPOTS, all over the planet earth - today was Shmaray's LUCKY DAY, that by chance it hit a Chassidic Area - so Shmarya can says HURRAY THIS IS MY LUCKY DAY - now I can blame the "snow storm" and Chassidim, somehow.

[Shimon]

Furthermore it is a scientific fact that shigellosis infection strikes primarily toddlers and children under 5 years of age!

Such children never practice ritual hand washing, needless to say.

Furthermore, shigellosis infection is even more popular with children who have not even been toilet trained - needless to say such children don't even know what ritual hand washing is!

Real Science proves that the majority of cases of shigellosis infection has nothing to do with Chassidim and the outbreak can affect any area, once it becomes a HOT SPOT, by CHANCE.

Furthermore:

Even if anyone would want to try and find some reasoning for the FREAK CHANCE of the outbreak of shigellosis infection in such an area - the logical conclusion SCIENTIFICALLY and based on STATISTICS is:

Since science establishes that the culprit is not adults (who practice ritual hand washing) but CHILDREN WHO HAVE NOT BEEN TOILET TRAINED yet, it follows logically that any ZIP CODE that has more of such children is more likely to have a higher incidence of such a potential outbreak.

[Shimon]

Fact:

Frum Jews have much more children than non-frum Jews.

Chassidim, have much larger families than the Litvishe world since there are much more in the Litvishe world who practice birth control, than by the Chassidim.

If shigellosis infection incidence depends on CHILDREN NOT TOILET TRAINED, then obviously the Chassidim who have more children will likely have more outbreaks.

Proof that shigellosis infection has nothing to do with Ritual Hand Washing:

Outbreaks of shigellosis infection HOT SPOTS by GOYIM, who have no idea what ritual hand washing is - have no Jews and no Chassidim AT ALL in that area:

In TEXAS - In June of this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/one-last-year-corpus-christi-area-has-seen-68-cases-of-shigella-so-far-this-year/

Another second hot spot in TEXAS:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/texas-has-a-shigella-hotspot-in-it-it-is-called-karnes-county/

In IOWA (Ironically NOT at Agree Processors)

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/iowas-scott-county-known-for-round-barns-sees-uptick-in-shigella/

In Arkansas THIS YEAR:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/shigella-is-having-its-way-with-arkansas/

In South Dakota - this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/standing-rock-indian-reservation-is-center-of-shigella-outbreak-in-south-dakota/

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000833.htm

[Shimon]

Fact:
Frum Jews have much more children than non-frum Jews.

Chassidim, have much larger families than the Litvishe world since there are much more in the Litvishe world who practice birth control, than by the Chassidim.

If shigellosis infection incidence depends on CHILDREN NOT TOILET TRAINED, then obviously the Chassidim who have more children will likely have more outbreaks.

Proof that shigellosis infection has nothing to do with Ritual Hand Washing:

Outbreaks of shigellosis infection HOT SPOTS by GOYIM, who have no idea what ritual hand washing is - have no Jews and no Chassidim AT ALL in that area.

This year, most outbreaks were in Texas, Arkansas, and Iowa, in places in the states where they heve never seen any Chassid.

[Shimon]

In TEXAS - In June of this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/one-last-year-corpus-christi-area-has-seen-68-cases-of-shigella-so-far-this-year/

[Shimon]

Another second hot spot in TEXAS:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/06/articles/shigella-watch/texas-has-a-shigella-hotspot-in-it-it-is-called-karnes-county/

[Shimon]

In IOWA (Ironically NOT at Agree Processors)

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/iowas-scott-county-known-for-round-barns-sees-uptick-in-shigella/

[Shimon]

In Arkansas THIS YEAR:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/shigella-is-having-its-way-with-arkansas/

[Shimon]

In South Dakota - this year:

http://www.shigellablog.com/2008/05/articles/shigella-watch/standing-rock-indian-reservation-is-center-of-shigella-outbreak-in-south-dakota/

[Shmarya]

Shimon is another poster boy for bad haredi education.

The infection spreads by poor hand washing.

As I, the NYC and NY State Departments of health made clear, there are two problems:

1. Small childrenb who don't wash their hands because they are – gasp! – small children. If you could actually read and process information, Shimon, you'd see I noted that in my post.

2. Older children and adults who do not wash their hands or who do so inadequately.

When children get the infection, it is highly likely to be reported, because it is likely for children to be taken to a doctor.

Adults are less likely to self report.

At any rate, poor hand washing – and that includes filthy towels at synagogues and men's mikvaot, lack of soap usage, etc – causes the spread of the infection.

Lastly, your "analysis" missed an important fact:All of the current cases occurred in youngsters who attend private Jewish schools in Monsey and New Square. No cases have been reported outside of those communities. That's right, Shimon. Non-haredim living smack dab in the middle of this "hot spot" did not get the infection. Process that.

[Shmarya]

And Shimon, theat source you cite also has this posted:Insider Offers Explanation on Shigella Outbreak Among New York's Jewish Communities
Posted on June 26, 2008 by Shigella Lawyer

When we reported earlier this year on the Shigella outbreaks being experienced by the Jewish communities of the Lower Hudson and Brooklyn in New York State, we did wonder if it might have something to do with religious or cultural practices.
Our last report, Shigella Outbreak In New York Spreads Across Hudson River can be found here.
And when we saw reports this week that Rockland County, New York has had 130 Shigella cases already this year, compared to about a dozen in all of last year; we went looking for more of an insider explanation.

We found this by columnist Elliot Jager in The Jerusalem Post:

TAKE SHIGELLA, a bacteriological infection of the intestines, which recently spiked among the ultra-Orthodox Satmar sect in Brooklyn. The disease is spread when infected fecal matter contaminates food or water, which is why the local health department suspected poor hygiene as the cause.

It's not that Satmar children don't wash their hands after going to the toilet, the problem is they don't necessarily use soap and hot water. Instead, they ritually wash by pouring cold water several times over each hand before reciting the Asher Yatzar prayer, which thanks God for the continuous daily miracle of the body's proper functioning.

No one is suggesting that ritual washing, per se, is the problem, only that the process probably needs to be supplemented by soap and hot water. Fortunately, the public health authorities in New York City are clued into the possibility that group values can provide insights into the spread of disease. Having solved the mystery, they've now distributed pamphlets in Yiddish on personal hygiene.

Habits are always hard to break. Jager's "Power & Politics: From minyan anxiety to female modesty" can be found here

For the latest from Rockland County, go here.So it seems your source is as "biased" as I am. So is the Jerusalem Post.

[Dick]

Regarding the use of bar soap on Shabbos, Rabbi S.Z. Aurbach said "it's one of those things that are permissible but our custom is to prohibit it."

[Shimon]

Shmarya,

You still fail to understand the science and simple facts of how the infection spreads.

It does not spread by geographic area. Rather it spreads by CONTACT.

Usually, "CONTACT" of toddlers (pre-toilet training) who are both more likely to touch fecal matter (than adults who usually avoid it), these children CONTACT each other by hand (or cross contamination) and so since the affected children exist in a LOCATION, then this location becomes a HOT SPOT.

But it is not the "LOCATION" or area per say, which spreads the disease but rather the CONTACT of the toddlers inside this location.

Here is the simple 2 + 2 = 4, which Shmaray fails to understand.

You can have a same "LOCATION" such as "Rockland Country" or Zip code 11219, where there can be a mix of different ethnic groups. These different ethnic groups do not come into HAND CONTACT with each other, since ethnic groups usually stick to their own, using their own SEPARATE day care centers and pre-schools and their own play areas, toddler "play groups" and baby sitting services and attend the same birthday parties, only among their own ethnic group.

A neighbor even "NEXT DOOR" who is of another ethnic group or religion will never attend the same day care center or birthday party for the pre-toilet trained child (who has no idea what ritual hand washing is).

Therefore it's as simple as 2 + 2 = 4

It's self evident and every 2 year old can understand this, that in the same code, once the infection is ESTABLISHED will be very limited, affecting only it's own ethnic group and never cross between different ethnic groups.

Again, Ritual washing, has absolutely 100% ZERO to do with any of this.

This is science, my friend.

The Jerusalem Post and Shmarya (blaming it on Ritual Hand washing, which toddlers DON'T do) is much worse than anyone believing in any "superstition", (which Shmaraya "HATES" with a RACIAL vengeance).

Because at least, those who believe in superstition are at east following some innocent tradition (be it right or wrong), without harming or "HATING" anyone else, but those, who use junk science to perpetuate ant-semitic or Jew-hating, or Chassid-hating, agendas, are not unlike, those who pursue, any other type of anti-semitic (Self_Hating_Jew, type of) racial agendas.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

What you do not understand is how the infection spreads with populations that do have contact.

It is not simply that thee are more children in hasidic households – if that were the case, you'd expect frequent outbreaks in Mormon and conservative Catholic communities.

You see, Shimon, what you do not understand is that, once the infection is present, it spreads based on how bad the hygiene is – the better the hygiene, the smaller the spread.

What makes the hasidic outbreaks so bad is poor hygiene related to poor hand washing related to washing without soap and using dirty towels.

Now slink back into your cesspool.

[Shimon]

Shmarya,

Thank you for confirming and proving my point that your entire opinion is based on your BIOS against Chassidim.

What I say is based on science and can be proven scientifically that ritual hand washing is irrelevant here.

You, Shmarya, have proven that you have no scientific proof, by your lack of showing any scientific study to prove your point.

This disease is very widely studied by very highly qualified medical professionals in all countries throughout the world.

Million of dollars is spent to try to control this disease and research is ongoing.

Proof that Shmarya is 100% wrong, is proven by the fact that out of MILLIONS of dollars of Medical research and studies, NOT EVEN ONE STUDY, indicates any link between ritual hand washing and the incidence of Shigella!

Shmarya, you are not a scientists and you are not going to RE-INVENT the wheel now.

There are, the worlds finest scientists, who are a million times smarter than Shmaraya, and absolutely, NOT EVEN ONE of them, came up with any such Junk Science, as Shmarya dreamed up, here.

The fact that Shmaraya must resort to NAME CALLING, me "IDIOT" also proves my point that what he says has no scientific proof and is based only on his Racial_HATRED of Chassidim.

People Like Shmaraya, who have no proof, must stoop so low, to call their opponents "IDIOT", in hopes that this will take the place of science to "prove" their RACIST_HATRED (against Chassidim) to be 100% true.

[Shimon]

Shmarya's ugly, ethnic RACISM against Chassidm is also displayed in the his "logical" argument how he concludes his scientific "proof".

Shmarya's last loving words to Shimon's comment is this:

Now slink back into your cesspool.

This Shmarya's MO, how he intends to prove his point "logically" and "scientifically".

[Shmarya]

You really are a fool.

There are plenty of studies that prove poor hand washing is the main way this infection is transmitted.

Hasidim have an outbreak that is growing, not shrinking, despite government intervention.

What makes hasidim different from Mormons or from large Catholic families?

The way they wash their hands.

When soap is not used, germs and bacteria (along with fecal matter, etc.) stays on the hands.

Vigorous hand washing without soap but under warm running water for perhaps a minute or more might remove this detritus.

But washing with a cup will not.

That is why the transmission rate is so high in hasidic communities.

Add to that dirty towels in shuls, schools, and mikvaot.

And you are an idiot, Shimon. You're ignorant by choice.

[Shimon]

Shmarya you are showing how little proof and how MUCH, true hatred, you have, when you keep on proving my point, in every single one of your posts, filled with VENOM in your name-calling, me "FOOL" and other such acts of "CIVILITY", by you.

Shmarya you are wrong because no one disputes, the general concept, that hand washing is a most significant factor but you conveniently forget that we are talking about TODDLERS who have not been toilet trained yet, which are the vast majority of those who spread the disease and who get it.

Toddlers lack of hand washing and their frequent contact with fecal matter is identical among all ethnic groups and ritual hand washing of adults has ZERO affect of the NON-Ritual hand washing of the toddlers.

If there was any truth to Shmarya's claims that Ritual Hand Washing or any other hygiene factors are present much more, by Chassidim than by others, than such scientific study would be ABUNDANTLY documented by medical professionals since the beginning of time.

Medical professionals are always seeking links to disease and have never indicated that Chassidic culture is a factor, which proves it is NON-EXISTENT, unless Shmarya feels he smarter than all scientists.

There is nothing new in 2007 or in 2008 in the chassidic ritual hand washing.

Ritual Hand Washing, is practiced today the IDENTICAL same way, as it was for the past several decades, and even in the past generations and yet the Chassidic areas, affected, which were noted this year and last year, were never noted in the past decade or two decades ago, at any higher rate, than any other ethnic group!!!

If ritual hand washing is NOTHING NEW and yet the disease outbreak is new in 2007-2008, in the zip code of 11219 and Rockland County, obviously it can't be related to ANY factors that are IDENTICAL for the past several hundreds of years, among Chassidic customs.

Why wasn't zip code 11219 and Rockland county a hot spot, every single year before 2007-2008, if they practice the same ritual hand washing today as they did for the past several GENERATIONS?

If ritual hand washing and other chassidic unique aspects of cleanliness is a factor, why isn't any other Chassidic group all over the world affected in the identical way?

Obviously there is nothing Chassidic, that can possibly be a factor, otherwise all of the of HUNDREDS of locations on earth, that also have, the same high concentration of Chassidic Jews, in specific Chassidic_areas, other than the above two areas, would also have had a higher incidence of the same disease, today and in generations past.

Shmarya, the facts of science are stacked against you.

Satmar of Monro NY, and in Jerusalem Satmar and other Chassidic spots in Israel , The Tush Chassidic town in Canada, Williamsburg and many other zip codes do not have any higher incidence than any other Secualr Jewish, or non-Jewish area!

[Shmarya]

Shmarya you are wrong because no one disputes, the general concept, that hand washing is a most significant factor but you conveniently forget that we are talking about TODDLERS who have not been toilet trained yet, which are the vast majority of those who spread the disease and who get it.

Idiot.

How stupid can you be?

1. Toddlers are not the only children infected. Many are older.

2. Adults are also infected.

3. Other populations with similar sized families tend to have shorter, more controlled outbreaks. Why? Perhaps because they learn how to wash their hands and use clean towels.

Obviously there is nothing Chassidic, that can possibly be a factor, otherwise all of the of HUNDREDS of locations on earth, that also have, the same high concentration of Chassidic Jews, in specific Chassidic_areas, other than the above two areas, would also have had a higher incidence of the same disease, today and in generations past.

Obviously, if I, were to add, perhaps a dozen, maybe more, unnecessary commas, in every sentence, I would understand your, logic.

You're a well-meaning fool. For the bacteria to be transmitted, at first someone must be a carrier.

Once someone is a carrier then the bacteria may (or may not) spread into that carrier's population.

And that spread or lack of it is largely determined by hygiene.

So, when a child or an adult in hasidic communities that practice poor hygiene gets the bacteria, the chance of it spreading exponentially is greater than in communities where good hygiene is practiced.

Following your logic, every large family should contract and spread the bacteria because of the family's size.

You don't understand simple logic, you don't understand disease transmission and you don't understand public health.

[Shimon]

Shmarya, no matter how much uncivilized NAME-CALLING you engage in it will not make you any more right.

Shmarya, you are wrong and you just make up facts to suite your racist bias, against Chassidim.

Shmarya said:
Other populations with similar sized families tend to have shorter, more controlled outbreaks. Why?

This simply is not true, Shmarya made this up.

There is no scientific data to support Shmaraya made up facts that the disease spreads quicker or last longer if in Chassidic group than in any other non-Chassidic group.

[Shmarya]

You accused me of racism, Shimon, well before I called you any names.

If you would bother to actually read, you'd note that the pattern of the Monsey outbreak is abnormal.

You'd also see that, when proper hand washing is practiced, outbreaks are shorter in duration.

Try looking through the CDC website instead of an attorney's blog..

[Friar Yid]

Reminds me of the Essenes. Those who don't learn from history...

[R]

Shmarya, warm water has nothing to do with it. It's the rubbing with the soap that cleans and then washing it off with the water.
Warm water is nicer because it is warm, but generally the water coming out of taps are not freezing cold unless it's the winter.
The outbreak of this disease in the chassidic communities is abnormal and it's abnormal that it isn't going away, it is getting worse. I think we can blame poor hygeine for that and the lack of hygeine education.
Also another thing i personally noticed in my own community is that certain children from certain school seem to get worms and once one kid has it you notice a trend happening of alot of kids getting the same medication and funnily enough they go to the same schools. I think the schools are dirty and they aren't teaching the children when they are young to wash their hands properly, or they do not have the proper facitilities ie soap.
I remember never using the toilet in high school because there was never soap and if there was, it was a crusty old bar of soap which looked rank.

[Shimon]

Shmarya,

Your reference to the CDC website also proves that I am right and that you are wrong.

CDC knows just as much about the fact that Chassidim practice ritual hand-washing yet the CDC makes sure to NOT say that there is any link between ritual hand-washing and any higher incidence of infection.

Furthermore, proof that you are wrong, proven by the CDC web site:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001700.htm

The above link speaks of a tremendous increase in infection, yet it does not mention Chassidim or chassidic geographic areas, at all.

This does not mean that Chassdic areas can't be affected, certainly the ARE affected but in COUNTRY WIDE statistics, the CDC indicates absolutely ZERO higher incidence in the USA, among chasssidim than non-chassidm.

A case can happen, as it happened now in zip code 11219, but the GLOBAL PICTURE, in context of ALL cases, throughout the entire year, and the entire USA, there is no higher incidence by Chassidm than non-chassidim.

Shmarya, you are taking this isolated incident out of context since the overall COUNTRY WIDE, and YEAR LONG incidence does not state that Chassidim have a higher incidence than non-chassidim.

What does the CDC say?

They say, as I have stated before, that CHILDREN under the age of 5 (who NEVER practice ritual hand washing) are the ones who spread the majority of the disease.

The CDC web site states that adults account only to 5% of individuals infected.

[Shmarya]

Again, for the record, you are an idiot. You obviously cannot process even simple information.

Here, from the exact same CDC page you linked to, at the top of the page, is information that proves you wrong on several counts:…Kankakee County, Illinois. From October 1986 through February 1987, an outbreak of shigellosis caused by S. sonnei occurred in Kankakee County, Illinois (population: 97,800). Of 191 persons with culture-confirmed shigellosis, 70% were black and 61% were aged 1-10 years. Thirty-one percent of patients were hospitalized. Cases were clustered in low-income areas. An epidemiologic investigation did not identify common sources of exposure in the community; many patients reported having had contact with persons with culture-confirmed shigellosis or symptoms compatible with shigellosis.

To control this outbreak, from December 12 to January 10 the following measures were implemented: 1) information about shigellosis and its prevention was provided to parents of all children in the school district where most of the cases occurred, to child-care centers and preschools, and through schools, churches, and the news media; 2) teachers monitored handwashing by students before lunch; 3) parents assisted in monitoring handwashing in schools in the most severely affected areas; and 4) home-prepared foods were not permitted at any school or child-care events. Although the number of reported cases subsequently decreased, the outbreak did not end until March.

Peoria County, Illinois. From February through September 1987, a shigellosis outbreak caused by S. sonnei occurred in Peoria County, Illinois (Figure 2) (population: 181,500). Of the 513 culture-confirmed cases, 75% were in blacks and 69% were in children aged 1-10 years. Most patients resided in low-income areas. Seven percent of patients were hospitalized. Investigation did not identify a common source of exposure; most patients had a history of contact with a person who had culture-confirmed shigellosis or symptoms compatible with shigellosis.

During April, the following interventions were implemented: 1) child-care center and nursery school employees were informed about shigellosis prevention; 2) school officials in the affected area ensured that warm water, soap, and disposable towels for handwashing were always available for students; 3) in schools, parents and teachers instructed students on proper handwashing and monitored children for symptoms of shigellosis; 4) printed educational material about shigellosis was provided to all persons attending Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) clinics, immunization clinics, community clinics, and hospital emergency rooms; 5) volunteers from the local Urban League and housing authority made door-to-door visits in affected neighborhoods to identify cases and provide printed educational material; 6) religious leaders discussed the Shigella outbreak with their congregations, and church publications included information on shigellosis prevention; and 7) parents taught neighborhood children how to wash their hands and monitored them for symptoms of shigellosis. Although the number of reported cases decreased concurrently with the intervention, the outbreak continued at a lower level until September.

Orange County, New York. From November 29, 1986, to February 28, 1987, 110 culture-confirmed cases of S. sonnei gastroenteritis were reported in residents of a religious community (population: 5200) in Orange County, New York (Figure 3). Cases occurred primarily among school children 2-1/2 - 9 years of age; cases were evenly distributed by sex. An epidemiologic investigation did not identify a point source of exposure; spread of disease was consistent with person-to-person transmission.

Control measures were focused in schools and implemented from January 12 through February 28. The measures included 1) widespread dissemination of information about shigellosis and its prevention (e.g., proper handwashing and diaper changing) in schools and the community child-care center, 2) a program in which older children monitored handwashing by young children in the schools, and 3) periodic health department sanitation inspections of the schools. The number of reported cases of shigellosis declined concurrently with the intervention efforts.…I know simple facts are difficult for haredim like you, so let me help.

Here are major religious communities in Orange County, NY:
Monroe (sound familiar, Shimon?)

Kiryas JoelAnd, of the measures taken to stop the spread of the infection, only Kiryas Joel need to have regular inspections of its schools by the health department.

Kiryas Joel was much smaller in the late 1980s (the time period your "data" is taken from.

Kiryas Joel's population at last census was:

As of the census[8] of 2000, there were 13,138 people, 2,229 households, and 2,137 families residing in the village. The population density was 11,962.2 people per square mile (4,611.5/km²). There were 2,233 housing units at an average density of 2,033.2/sq mi (783.8/km²). The racial makeup of the village was 99.02% White, 0.21% African American, 0.02% Asian, 0.12% from other races, and 0.63% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.93% of the population.At the time of the outbreak you mention, Kiryas Joel had only 5200 residents. It is likely to have more than three times that today.

This CDC page clearly disproves everything you claimed:

1. Most of the children infected were not toddlers.

2. Positive changes in hand washing dramatically helps to curtail outbreaks.

3. Hasidim could not do that. Therefore the health department had to continuously inspect the schools to makes sure they were clean, soap was present, along with clean towels.

In other words, Shimon, you are exactly what I said you are. Now slink back into your cesspool.

[Shimon]

Shmarya,

As I expected, you couldn't control yourself, your verbal abuse, for more than the duration of just one post and now your back, to your regular abusive self, again.

Usually people who are SO abusive as you have demonstrated, do that to their own wife and children too (if you they haven't left you already).

It's so nice of Shmaraya to have such a "clean mouth" that every other word out of your mouth is a low level, cheap insult such as "IDIOT" and "slink back into your cesspool" and the like.

I pity your wife and children, if you have any.

Regarding the CDC report you are wrong on several counts.

You claim that it did not involve toddlers but the above CDC page does say that it involved children in Orange County as young as 2 1/2 and children of that age do not do Ritual Washing.

Although the children age did go up to 9 years of age also, but it proves nothing.

Because if the reason it included 9 year olds too, was because of Ritual washing, then there is no reason for the age group to stop at 9 years of age since the older one gets the more likely it is that they will do religious ritual hand washing.

The Data from CDC proves you wrong that the YOUNGER the more likely to be infected and the older (the more likely they are to do ritual washing, then) the LESS likely they were to be infected.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001700.htm

[food safety inspector]

Hand washing is the single most important measure to prevent food bourne illnesses such as shigella. If everyone would spend 20 seconds washing their hands after the bathroom and before handling food it would likely make a big dent in the number of shigella cases. This is true even if they use only water and no soap. While it is preferable to use soap, the fact is a 20 second hand washing with water alone is enough to remove at least 90% of the pathogens on the hands and may be sufficient to break the transmission cycle. I would be curious to know if the health depatment has been able to trace the shigella outbreak to any food prep source. This is the usual suspect for shigella outbreaks. One worker in a kitchen who carries shigella and does not wash their hands properly then contaminates food. The food often is not kept at the appropriate temperature to prevent continued multiplication of the pathogenic bacteria.
Before you know it that big cholent has enough shigella to make hundreds of people sick. 20 seconds of handwashing equals singing happy birthday twice.

[steve]

It's true, children are taught in yeshivos the importance of using a kelli to wash for asher yatzar. They are also taught to wash outside the bathroom. However, there is no emphasis placed upon using soap.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

It's true, children are taught in yeshivos the importance of using a kelli to wash for asher yatzar. They are also taught to wash outside the bathroom. However, there is no emphasis placed upon using soap.

exactly true, steven
in fact, if you ask, you will hear from hassidische rebbes that they washing their hands, has nothing to do with hygiene.
they are not at all concerned with the use of detergent, rubbing their hands front and back, but rather exactly what constitutes "netilas yadayim". That's X amount of water, administered bekoach gavra, using a keli with a perfect round opening. for all these idiots are concerned, the water could be contaminated with the bilharzia parasite. It does'nt matter as long as it is not visible, read ma-us, read visible fesces.

[pure sphardic]

CORRECTION
the responsa of Chacham Ovadia Yosef regarding soap on Shabbat is in volume 2 siman 50

[roni]

To Yosef ben Matitya

The water you uses, according to your own admission, has shit in it as you indicate and that's apparently what you drink because you sure talk like that what you are.

You are what you eat (and drink).

[Shmarya]

You claim that it did not involve toddlers but the above CDC page does say that it involved children in Orange County as young as 2 1/2 and children of that age do not do Ritual Washing.

I never made such a claim.

You simply do not have the skills to process what you read.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

You are what you eat (and drink).

ronni vesimchi baz zion.(Zecharia Zwei)
ronni aqarah lo yalada.
pitschi rinnah etzahali lo cha-lah!(Yeshayahu 54)
rannei falet tesoveveni selah!(tehillim 32)
ronni bas zion, hareeu yisroel (zefania 3)
qumi ronni balaylah lerosh ashmuros.(Eicha Zwei)

[Yosef ben Matitya]

You are what you eat (and drink).

ronni vesimchi baz zion.(Zecharia Zwei)
ronni aqarah lo yalada.
pitschi rinnah etzahali lo cha-lah!(Yeshayahu 54)
rannei falet tesoveveni selah!(tehillim 32)
ronni bas zion, hareeu yisroel (zefania 3)
qumi ronni balaylah lerosh ashmuros.(Eicha Zwei)
מְנֵא מְנֵא, תְּקֵל וּפַרְסִין