Should Haredim Call Police When A Child Is Abused?

If you are haredi and hold by Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch of Jerusalem's Edah HaHaredit (Badatz Yerushalyim), the answer is…

…probably not, as Daniel Eidensohn of Da'asTorah reports:

Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita - Guidelines for calling the Police

There is a widespread impression that the police and the chareidi world have an inherently antagonistic relationship. There is also a widespread perception that the chareidi world is more concerned with covering up crimes such as child or wife abuse and that pedophiles are given free run. In other words there is a perception that the chareidi community is more worried by adverse publicity then it is about the welfare of the individual.

This Shabbos I had an intensive discussion with Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita about these issues.

1) Child Molesters

He stated without hesitation and said that I can quote him - that if one knows that children are being molested that one should call the police. He noted that there is an important distinction to keep in mind. One calls the police when it is clear that someone is still in danger. Thus one does not automatically call the police concerning an event that took place once and is not going to be repeated. In such a case one should first consult with a rav. When I mentioned that many rabbis apparently felt differently – he dismissed such a view as being wrong. He noted also that it is important for the community rabbis to have a good working relationship with the police. That means that the police need to be sensitive to the needs and nature of the chareidi community and the community needs to be understanding of the police. He said that there is such a relationship with many police forces.


The rule is summarized simply – if one knows that someone is being physically abused or will be abused than it is required to call the police after consulting a rabbi who agrees he is a future danger as is common in such cases.

2) Vigilante actions

I mentioned the issue of vigilante actions in the chareidi community and whether they are to be praised or condemned. He noted that there are unfortunately disturbed and misguided individuals in the chareidi community – as there are in other communities. The general rule is not to make a public protest when the problem is rare and insignificant. He said that it only encourages these individuals when their activities are publicized. However if they progress beyond this stage then it is important to take action. He mentioned the Bedatz dealt last year with vigilantes who burned down a clothing store in Geula. I mentioned the recent incident in Beitar. He said he condemned such behavior. If it is clearly not a rare act of a disturbed person then it needs to be dealt with.

[This is also related to the recent outbreak of burglaries in Har Nof where Rav Sternbuch lives. The unanimous ruling of the rabbonim of Har Nof is that one can call the police on Shabbos if one witnesses a break-in as there is also life danger involved. As is explained in Shmiras Shabbos K’hilchosa (41:25-29) – this is because the possible danger associated with these break-ins. See also Aruch HaShulchan (C.M. 388:7). Tzitz Eliezer (19:52) also permitted calling the police in the case of teacher molesting his students. He based his psak on the Aruch HaShulchan.]

Realize this well. Rabbi Sternbuch is saying that rabbis should decide whether crimes should be reported to the police. He is also saying that anything – even child rape – that can be classified as a "one time" occurrence should not be reported.

And how do rabbis determine if this child rape is a one time occurrence or not? Obviously, if they know of a previous "one time" occurrence with this rapist, then calling the police might be in order.

What this rabbinic 'genius' has just done is allow child rapists and molesters – the crimes with the highest recidivism rate known to man – to walk free to rape and abuse some more, until they are caught for a second – or third, or fourth – time.

Who is to say Rabbi A will know that Rabbi B already ruled Child Rapist Rabbi X to be a "one time" rapist? And who says Rabbi C will know this 9 months later or Rabbi D 13 months later?

In other words, with no mandated reporting, there can be no effective tracking. Even if one were to buy into Rabbi Sternbuch's fantasy, there is no way to make that fantasy work.

Rabbi Sternbuch has just guaranteed that many more haredi women and children will be raped and molested, and their haredi abusers will walk free – under the protection of rabbis.

[Hat Tip: Aryeh The Lionhearted.]

Comments

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

...after consulting a rabbi who agrees he is a future danger as is common in such cases.

Victim's father: "Rabbi, my 5-year-old was just raped. Should I call the police?"

Rabbi: "Who did it?"

Victim's father: Mr. Ploni

Rabbi: [checks master donor list] "Oh, no. He won't be a danger to anyone in the future."

Well, I see a slight improvement in attitude towards the hated medinah and its officials by the chief Aidah Hachareidit posek. However, he is still blind to the realities of the child abuse situation and the competence of rabbanim to deal with such issues.

I am curious as to what measures were, indeed, taken by the Aidah against those "frum" vandals who torched a Geula clothing store. Did they give them lashes? Expel them from yeshiva/kollel? Or was it sufficient to give them a stern lecture and threaten to turn them in should they repeat their actions (i.e. you get a pass for a one-time action)?

Y. Aharon

[Yossi]

I don't get it. He also ruled many other things, like that you must sell all your stock holdings before Pesach, and no one follows his rulings. Why is suddenly an opinion that counts at all?

[steve]

This is the same attitude that the Agudath Israel of America has. They insist that we are capable of policing ourselves. They have worked vigorously, hand in hand with the Catholic Church, against mandatory reporting. The old party line is, "If you are a victim of molestation, consult your rabbi, DO NOT GO TO THE POLICE!" This was repeated over and over again at the Baltimore massacre conference last December. The other favorite line that we keep hearing over and over again from the likes of Agudah spokesman, Avi Shafran is, "Child abuse and molestation is not as bad in the frum community as it is in the outside world." Well Avi, read the latest comments by your colleague, Rabbi Horowitz on his blog:

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=994&ThisGroup_ID=346&Type=Article&SID=47#Com_5201

The sex abuse/molestation is skyrocketing in the chassidish and very yeshivish community. I didn't write this publicly (yet), but my gut tells me that it is much higher in these kehilos than in the non-Jewish , secular or modern orthodox world. (The party line is that "Baruch Hashem it is lower, but it is still a problem.... I used to think so. I do not anymore)

Read some of the other comments there including new abuse cases in Bnai Brak.

[Catherine]

This sound too familiar
The reason they dont call the police is becuase of this
unfortunatly Rabbi leaders will follow this rule which is not only unfair to the victem but almost impossible to have another witness at the time of the crime

Who molests a person in front of another person? where is the logic in that? so why would anyone in religious authority, use this usless rule for such a terrible disgusting crime?

It give the person an excuse to commit the crime even more so. Applying this
will not protect any child in any case or get any justice done.
I think most of the time, when a child say's they were molested, they were.
very rare someone is co-hearst into telling tales for large amount of money if that is the case, extortion. But Hashem only knows the truth.

Deut. 19:15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity … at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.

So even if a child voices that they were abused and that person the accused was questioned and lets say they deny it,
nothing will be done to that person that was accused, because there were not 2 or 3 witnesses.

sounds messed up to me!

[Catherine]

another note
in the JW relgion. {you all know what i mean wright} the J Witnesses,
there is over 23 thousand cases of child molestation that were reported in the data base in Brooklin New York where they hold there Headquarters.
these are only reported on the Watch tower files not police they keep these confidencial within there congregations and the horor stories are unreal!
they make the victems feel it was there fault or that they are homosexual gays, re victemizing the victem over again.

but, a woman that worked in the offices for many years, revealed this information quit here possition there and has gone very public about this. This religion, has paid out millions of dollars to victems you can see it on a website called silentlambs.org

ITs even more disturbing when you see Gods true covenant people Israel,that I
have embrased whole heartedly and become a part of the Orthodox communities of the world,
doing the same thing that the other religions are doing! The same pagan practices. its almost as if
but not literally of course but it can be likened to putting our children through the fire! sort of speak.
Just like Bal worship! One of the many Pagan customs of old!!
Damaging there very soul heart and mind and there faith in Hashem our creator.
Lets hope and pray that something be done about this very soon!

Thank you
Shalom

Steve:

Can you give me some more information about the Baltimore massacre conference? I am from Baltimore but I don't know anything about this or any problems that have gone on.

[Jim the Catholic]

The late Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said you have to report child abusers to the police & that this doesn't constitute "informing" also he said you have to do it even if it means putting orthodox Jewish Children in non-observant Jewish foster homes.

While I'm at it steve wrote....
>They have worked vigorously, hand in hand with the Catholic Church, against mandatory reporting.

I reply: If you mean "reporting" that violates, let us say the SEAL of the Confessional. Well I am in full support of the Church in that matter. Just as I am for Attorney client confidentiality & the right against self-incrimination. I see no reason to tear down every law in England just to get at this devil.

I also support the Church in the matter of unequal treatment in mandatory reporting (such as making strict rules in regards to sex abuse reported in Catholic Schools BUT exempting public schools from the same rules). That being said there is NOTHING in Canon Law that stops me from reporting a Priest or Bishop to the police if my kid says he was touched in a nasty way by said clergymen. I can't be excommunicated for that AND I have never heard of anyone who has.

The JW's OTOH HAVE "Dis-fellowshipped" members who have on their own gone to the police without consulting an JW Overseer.

If I was a Jew & I was Frum I'd think I'd listen to the late Rav Auerbach then listen to this Rabbi Sternbuch character.

[Hotspur]

Should Haredim Call Police When A Child Is Abused? Why does that question even need to be asked?

Vayikra 19:6 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

When blood and trauma is involved, you aren't a tale bearer, you are told not to allow it.

[rebitzman]

++If I was a Jew & I was Frum I'd think I'd listen to the late Rav Auerbach then listen to this Rabbi Sternbuch character.++

Given your silly justification of priests not reporting pedophiles - I find your above comment laughable. The "Seal of the confessional" is pretty much what caused the circumstances of the Catholic Church to spin into the courts - and why the courts are returning massive judgments against it.

Take care of your own house, Bubba.

[Shmarya BS Watch]

Rabbi Sternbuch said if you know someone is actively molesting you may call the police. He did not say you must first consult a rabbi in all cases as Shmarya is trying to twist his words.

[Shmarya BS Watch]

Rabbi Sternbuch is obviously ignorant of the fact that 99% of offenders keep offending but many people would make the mistake of assuming that someone who offended 10 years ago might not do it again.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

And what about the 99.9% of the cases that are discovered after the abuse?

[Shmarya BS Watch]

It's evident from Rabbi Sternbuch's words - to any thinking person not obsessed with anti-religious hatred - that offenders in most cases can be reported. Obviously if it's a fresh case we know the criminal will reoffend if given the opportunity. Unfortunately the rabbi does differ when it's an old story. He certainly does not abet cover ups across the board like you are trying to spin it.

Being called an idiot by a phucked up spinster like you is an honor.

[Shmarya BS Watch]

Here is Shmarya trying to cast Orthodox Jews as primitive when just the other day he was in awe over some naked savages pointing spears in the Amazon.

He reminds me of someone who makes fun of "white trash" yet enjoys watching "monster truck" shows.

[Shmarya BS Watch]

By the way, does anyone know when there will be a real expose on Tropper, instead of that lame attempt by Shmarya & Kelsey? Their piece made it sound like the lady in Kentucky had her conversion revoked ipso facto. I understand from sources that her conversion was actually nipped in the bud before it took place.

[Shmarya]

What you (not surprisingly) miss is that, without tracking and international mandatory reporting, there is simply no way to tell if this is a first offense – let alone whether the molester has done it 100s of time before and never been caught.

Rabbi Sternbuch also condones not reporting a crime committed against a vulnerable minor, which is in and of itself highly problematic.

[Shmarya]

By the way, does anyone know when there will be a real expose on Tropper, instead of that lame attempt by Shmarya & Kelsey? Their piece made it sound like the lady in Kentucky had her conversion revoked ipso facto. I understand from sources that her conversion was actually nipped in the bud before it took place.

Idiot.

The piece clearly states the following:

1. Leah's maternal grandmother was Jewish.

2. Leah was raised as a Christian.

3. Her husband, Peter, is not Jewish.

4. Tropper stopped Peter's conversion and expelled Leah's son Jonathan from Kol Yakov when Peter refused to move to Monsey.

Anyone who wants to can read the exposé here:

http://www.jewcy.com/post/haredi_conversion

[anonymous]

What Leib Tropper doesn't tell you is that he refused to give his first wife a GET and then one day while he is giving a Torah class in Manhattan, in walks a professional career model in HOT PANTS. Tropper felt something in his own pants getting hot and decides this hot mamma is the one he is going to marry. He immediately ships her off to Israel for a quick immersion in orthodox Judaism, convinces her to give him 20,000 dollars so his first wife will accept a GET no questions asked... marries her several weeks later and annoints her "rebbetzen." She is a genuinely nice woman but currently trapped in an emotionally abusive controlling relationship and serves as Tropper's meal ticket, working 12hours a day to support him while he plays rosh yeshiva and hits on other younger hot little things while she is out. It's been long rumored the real reason Tropper got into the conversion business was just to be able to ask women to take their clothes off when they took a dip in the mikveh. Just keep asking around and you'll have a story much juicier than Tendler, Lanner, Gafni, or Moshe Katsav.

[Bernard]

More about Rav Sternbuch:

http://atruefaith.blogspot.com/2008/06/evil-empire.html

[R]

I don't understand why anyone should need to ask the question? If someone is being abused then you have to tell the correct authorities (as in the ones who will do something and today that means the police).
What is a Rabbi going to be able to do?

Even if a billion Rabbis said you must tell the police, i bet there will be plenty frum charedim who will still harbour peadophiles within their communities.

[steve]

To blankety blank 6/9 @4:22PM:

http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/article/analysis_anti_child_molestation_meeting_fails/

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/baltimore-rabbi.html

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/03/so-what-kind-of.html

To Jim the Catholic,

I'm not familiar with your religion's SEAL or any other code of omerta. However, civil law, common decency and Jewish religious law mandates that a predator be turned over to the authorities. In Judaism, the term is rodef or pursuer. When one is deemed to be a rodef, then the society has the obligation to do whatever is necessary to remove this menace and to prevent him for causing and further harm. This is not only logical and moral, but it is the law.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jim: If a priest knows that someone will commit a crime, isn't it true that he has to try to physically stop the perp, rather than break confession or do nothing? Pedophilia has close to a 100% recidivism rate.

[steve]

This is the complete link to the BJT article:

http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/article/analysis_anti_child_molestation_meeting_fails

[steve]

station_meeting_fails

[Jim the Catholic]

>Jim: If a priest knows that someone will commit a crime, isn't it true that he has to try to physically stop the perp, rather than break confession or do nothing? Pedophilia has close to a 100% recidivism rate.

If a person "confesses" he is about to do something gravely evil then technically that is NOT confession & I don't think the seal applies. (I will have to consult a priest.) Since it shows a willingness to do evil. Confession is something you do AFTER sin because you are truly sorry. It can't immune you for future sins. OTOH A Priest couldn't turn in a man who confessed to him of having committed the sin of pedophilia anymore than a Defense Lawyer can turn in his client. But a Priest CAN order the pedophile to turn himself in as part of his penance & the Priest can withhold Absolution if he refuses. If the man dies with such a mortal sin on his soul he will go to Hell.

[Jim the Catholic]

rebitzman the confused wrote:
>Given your silly justification of priests not reporting pedophiles - I find your above comment laughable.

I reply: So like young Master Roper from A MAN FOR ALL SEASONS you are an advocate of tearing down every law in England to get to the Devil. Accept as Saint Sir Thomas More reminded him when the Devil turns to attack where will he hide now that every law in England is down? I would give the Devil the benefit of Law FOR MY OWN SAKE.

Tell me buddy did the Jews in Germany where all the rights where torn down benefit from such a thing? Sure pedophiles in Nazi Germany could be more easily sent to prison but then again so could innocent Jews.

>The "Seal of the confessional" is pretty much what caused the circumstances of the Catholic Church to spin into the courts - and why the courts are returning massive judgments against it.

I reply: You are on drugs. The Church got into trouble because Bishops moved priests around who where publicly accused of sex abuse. The Seal of the confession doesn't apply in the case of public accusation. If I publicly accuse a priest of a crime the confessional is not involved. But if I confess to a Priest a crime he can't turn me in. What you WANT your lawyer to be able to blab everything to a judge at will?

Go live in Communist China then.

[Jim the Catholic]

Steve wrote:
>In Judaism, the term is rodef or pursuer. When one is deemed to be a rodef, then the society has the obligation to do whatever is necessary to remove this menace and to prevent him for causing and further harm. This is not only logical and moral, but it is the law.

I reply: I know something of your Jewish Law. Your law forbids self-incrimination. It's in the Jewish Encylopedia & my copy of Tract ate Sanhedrin by Rabbi Steinzaltz.

Your defense lawyer can't testify against you in civil Law. In Jewish Law you Father can't be made to testify against you. Well a Priest can't tell anyone even under pain of Death what was confessed to him. If you passed a Law we Catholics will do what was done in Communist Countries. We will not obey & accept the consequences.

Now I'm going to Bed.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jim: Thanks for the explanation. Hope you slept well.

[Jim the Catholic]

Hey Yochanan my man!

I got this from the online Catholic Encyclopedia.

QUOTE"These prohibitions, as well as the general obligation of secrecy, apply only to what the confessor learns through confession made as part of the sacrament. He is not bound by the seal as regards what may be told him by a person who, he is sure, has no intention of making a sacramental confession but merely speaks to him "in confidence"; prudence, however, may impose silence concerning what he learns in this way. Nor does the obligation of the seal prevent the confessor from speaking of things which he has learned outside confession, though the same things have also been told him in confession; here again, however, other reasons may oblige him to observe secrecy."END QUOTE

It seems some orthodox Catholic theologians I respect disagree with me on wither a Priest can require a Criminal Penitent to turn himself into the Authorities as part of his penance. Others disagree with them. As an academic exercise if you are interested you can read an old discussion on the subject.
here.

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/11/can_a_priest_fo.html

Should prove interesting if you are into comparative religion.