Rubashkin PR Meeting Canceled

Conference Call To Only 20 Selected "Leaders" Instead.

5W PR:

"Too Many People RSVP'd," "More Of A Circus" Than A Meeting.

Young Israel head Rabbi Pesach Lerner defends Rubashkin, attacks Modern Orthodox…

… boycotters:

Damage-Control Mode For Embattled Kosher Meat Giant
‘Informational’ meeting planned for Midtown abruptly changed to conference call.
by Debra Nussbaum Cohen
Staff Writer

Fearing an onslaught of protestors, kosher meat giant Agriprocessors hastily changed a meeting planned for Tuesday afternoon in Midtown into a conference call.


Agriprocessors’ attorney, Nathan Lewin, and the company’s newly hired compliance officer, former U.S. attorney Jim Martin, spoke to about 20 listeners who had been invited to participate.

They included “distributors and community leaders,” said Juda Engelmayer, senior vice president of the public relations firm 5WPR, which was recently hired by the embattled kosher meat giant.

“Having a meeting in a public forum where too many people RSVP’d, it seemed like it was going to become more of a circus than an informational meeting,” said Engelmayer.

During the 45-minute telephone briefing Tuesday, Martin told his listeners that “ ‘he has zero tolerance

for any wrongdoing and that anything it takes to bring [Agriprocessors] up to where they’re supposed to be he’s going to do,” Engelmayer recalled.

He did not cite any specifics about what needs correction at the plant, which is struggling to replenish its workforce after a raid by federal immigration authorities on May 12 removed about half of its production line staff.

Lewin, who did not return phone messages, said during the conference call that “it’s important to correct what’s wrong, but also to separate rumor, gossip and just smearing,” according to the Engelmayer.

Rabbi Pesach Lerner, executive vice president of the National Council of Young Israel, a network of 225 Orthodox synagogues, participated in the conference call. He told The Jewish Week, in a phone interview, “We have a right to demand answers of the Rubashkins [owners of Agriprocessors] but not to convict them before anything happens.”

Immigration authorities at the Postville, Iowa, plant, arrested nearly 400 workers. Most have been sentenced to five-month prison sentences followed by immediate deportation.

The company itself, which is owned by Brooklyn-based Lubavitcher Aaron Rubashkin, has not been charged by the federal government with breaking any laws.

The affidavit for a search warrant filed by federal immigration authorities, however, listed allegations against management, including knowingly hiring underage workers and illegal immigrants and paying them less than the mandated minimum wage, among other things.

The company has also been under scrutiny for the past four years by state and federal workplace-safety monitoring agencies, and the animal-rights group PETA.

In response to the current and past charges relating to workplace conditions, two groups — one aligned with the Conservative movement, the other initiated by Modern Orthodox Jews — are organizing boycotts of Rubashkin products.

The efforts seem to be making some impact.

The B’nai B’rith Youth Organization, which will have some 900 Jewish teens at its three overnight camps this summer, says that it is boycotting the company’s meat.

“A lot of Hillels and restaurants around the country are changing their meat,” said Shmuly Yanklowitz, founder and co-director of Uri L’Tzedek: Awaken to Justice, which, he says, has collected more than 1,500 signatures of people and groups which are now boycotting Agriprocessors products.

Rabbi Lerner of the National Council of Young Israel dismissed the number of petition-signers. “Fifteen hundred signers doesn’t impress me a bit,” he said. “Give me an hour and I’ll get a petition for anything on the Web and get you 5,000 signatures.”

He described Uri L’Tzedek’s organizers as being “young kids who need something to put them on the map” who are taking advantage of Agriprocessor’s current problems.

He said that “we’re a bunch of idiots” to be Jews boycotting other Jews. “We’re going crazy, and I don’t think they [Agriprocessors] deserve it,” he said. “I’ve been eating their meat in places where no other company gets to, and for that the Jewish community owes them a debt of gratitude and at least the benefit of the doubt.”

Still, the boycott seems to be making an impression on Agriprocessors. Representatives of Uri L’Tzedek met with people connected to Agriprocessors on May 11.

“They were very focused on trying to intimidate and prove wrong our positions,” said Yanklowitz. “At the same time they were admitting to a bunch of allegations, saying ‘of course we had children working there but some of them looked over age,’ and that ‘if there was abuse there it probably wasn’t one of the rabbis,’ ” he continued.

His organization asked Agriprocessors to agree, in writing, to pay above minimum wage and to have a workplace sexual misconduct policy. The company has not yet gotten those documents to Uri L’Tzedek.

“They sat down and agreed to the commitments, even if they haven’t fulfilled them yet. We will keep pressure high and increase consumer awareness and refraining from their products while at the same time trying to partner with them from the inside,” he said.

Requests to interview AgriProcessors management were passed along, said Engelmayer, but no one was made available. The company’s former public relations consultant, Menachem Lubinsky, did not return phone messages. AfgriProcessors took on the New York-based firm 5W, which also represents evangelical televangelist Benny Hinn, controversial Pastor John Hagee, the Trinity Broadcasting Network, the Zionist Organization of America and Israel’s Ministry of Tourism, among others, after the bad publicity following the immigration raid.…

And, it seems, Agriprocessors has not been able to restore its production to pre-raid levels.…

Gotta love 5W.

If this PR "powerhouse" along with a slew of Rubashkin rabbis, consultants and attorneys can't handle a meeting that should tell you two things:

1. Rubashkin has a very weak case.
2. Rubashkin and company don't have the ability to compete in an open marketplace of ideas.

Put another way, lies only work in closed environments. Openness is an ally of truth.

Of course, Rabbi Pesach Lerner and Young Israel know that first hand:

Young Israel Scandal: 1, 2.

Comments

[John K. Diamond]

Praise HaShem that He has had His fill with Rubashkin and is numbering his days.

With the growing consumer boycotts, Federal indictments looming and cattle ranchers thinking twice before sending any of their animals to the Rubashkin "Animal Horror Houses", we will soon be rid of this horrible scourge in the Jewish World.

[michael ben drosai]

John - what's the next plague you're sending their way (I want to give residents of neighboring states ample time to evacuate before you start your pulsa d'nura)

[steve]

How much do you think these trolls make an hour? I wonder if they get paid as much as YTT paid Chaim Neuhoff two years ago to troll UOJ's blog and to start his own blog? Perhaps they should invest in some software and send in bots with pre-timed and pre-programmed messages and responses. It could be cheaper for them in the long run.

[Carol Ann Varley]

John,
Don't forget the non-kosher world since the majority of Agri's meat goes there.

[John K. Diamond]

Thank you Carol, for correcting me.

You are correct, Rubashkin is as much a scourge on the non-Jewish world.

Thank you also, for the kind supportive words to Catherine Manna in a sister post.

[John K. Diamond]

Steve,

Whatever the trolls, like Mike and others make per hour, is of no concern.

They are simply wasting their time.

But no amount of time, however long, is ever wasted, in telling HaShem's truth.

[Archie Bunker]

If 5W didn't get a paid retainer up front this is going to be a real hoot. Rubashkin has already stiffed countless creditors like the creative ad agency and the ranchers.

[John K. Diamond]

And we need to keep in back of our minds how the OU has stiffed the consumer for decades, passing off treif meat as Kosher.

[Shmarya]

f 5W didn't get a paid retainer up front this is going to be a real hoot. Rubashkin has already stiffed countless creditors like the creative ad agency and the ranchers.

The government has a bonding system and all cattle purchasers must be bonded. If Rubashkin stiff cattle dealers, they get paid – Rubashkin ends up in federal court.

[yo]

Juda Engelmayer should be ashamed of himself. This is the same guy who puts his name in the papers demanding that the Lower East Side put up an eruv. Now he's whoring his services out to those defending the indefensible. Defending the Orthodox establishment that maintains the system that you oppose where you live...priceless.

[Archie Bunker]

Juda Engelmayer was also the enforcer hired by OU client Le Marais to counter-attack ex-mashgiach Isaac Bitton and his supporters. I have heard that Engelmayer was previously chief of staff for former NY State Comptroller Carl McCall.

[Archie Bunker]

At least Engelmayer is consistent. He is violating the wishes of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein regarding an eruv on the Lower East Side, just like he is aiding & abetting Rubashkin to violate Rabbi Feinstein's edict prohibiting kosher & treif at the same company.

[George]

Big deal. Bnai Brith events aren't kosher... Just call and ask and listen closely. They do "kosher style."

The B’nai B’rith Youth Organization, which will have some 900 Jewish teens at its three overnight camps this summer, says that it is boycotting the company’s meat.

[state of the Jews]

George said ...

"The B’nai B’rith Youth Organization, which will have some 900 Jewish teens at its three overnight camps this summer, says that it is boycotting the company’s meat"

Wrong. BBYO did not use the word boycott. They simply said their events would be Agri-free.

[Dan Schwartz]

There’s nothing wrong with changing a meeting plan; it happens all the time. I’ve heard 5W do a great job of helping companies get back on track and Juda Engelmayer is the one to do it. It is ridiculous that Jews (Tzedek) are boycotting other Jews (AgriProcessors), and over what? There is no hard evidence of worker abuse, only speculation about misconduct in a meatpacking house that supplied great kosher brand name foods throughout the United States for years.

[michael ben drosai]

careful dan if you dare disagree with scotty and catherine love and john diamond (and unless you concede that the absolute truth, unvarnished, unsullied, unclouded by any agendae can be found at wwwgoveg.com) , you'll be labeled a troll - tread softly

[yo]

Dan,
Best be getting up from kneeling in front of Engelmayer. If Agriprocessors is such a wonderful company, why have they (and Nat Lewin and the OU) slowly and quietly changed their tune from "It's all lashon hara, there's nothing wrong in Postville" to "it's important to correct what's wrong." Maybe they could start by admitting what was wrong (besides getting caught)-that would go a long way towards improving their credibility, and they wouldn't have to pay a high-priced whore, i mean, high-powered executive, like Engelmayer to do so.

[steve]

Another Jewish musician trolling for Rubashkin. "Dan Schwartz" welcome aboard.

http://www.danschwartz.net/index.html

[John K. Diamond]

Hello Mr. Schwartz,

To learn some really "True Tunes", visit:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

As old Harry Truman once said, "The only thing new in the world, is the history you don't know."

[steve]

They may have finally stumped YL. I don't think he has any Dan Schwartz parodies.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I am not familiar with his music, so yeah.

But I'll do a takeoff on Yo's comments:

What'll you do when you get hungry
And no Agri processors by your side?
You've been kneeling and apologizing too long.
Rubbishcan has too much to hide.

Engelmayer
You got me on my knees
Engelmayer
Your clients all are sleaze
Engelmayer
Chillul HaShem is on my mind.

Apologies to Eric Clapton.

> Layla, you've got me on my knees.
Layla, I'm begging, darling please.
Layla, darling won't you ease my worried mind.

[Kenny]

This is all ridiculous. You're blasting a guy for doing his job? That's idiotic. You're also blasting a company over allegations. I agree that it looks bad. So what? Does anyone here really know what happened? Maybe Rubashkin is good, maybe they're evil. Maybe they're just like everyone else. The point is, no one knows. Blasting someone at a PR firm for doing PR is moronic. Blasting a slaughterhouse while being a vegetarian is dishonest. A Rabbi calling for boycott before the facts are in, while being both a Rabbi and an undisclosed vegetarian is halachically wrong and dishonest. You don't like meat? Don't eat meat. You're an animal "rights" radical? Whoopee. You don't like plans you have nothing to do with being changed for reasons that have nothing to do with you? TS. Complain all you want, just lay off personal insults over things you almost certainly know nothing about and serve only to detract from the message and issues.

[yo]

Juda Engelmayer is more than just a PR guy at a PR firm. He is a member of an Orthodox synagogue and has made a name for himself demanding that an eruv be established in the Lower East Side.

[Kenny]

Why is that an issue?

[steve]

I agree that it looks bad. So what? Does anyone here really know what happened? Maybe Rubashkin is good, maybe they're evil

The mountains of "allegations" go back a decade, "Kenny". Get your head out of the sand. It's amazing that Shmarya has been reporting about abuses at Rubashkin for at least four years now and only now, after the biggest immigration raid in history, do their supporters speak up. It's going to take a lot more than Lubinsky, Engelmeyer, Lewin, Martin and Weissmandl to undo years of abuse and lies. So what, you say? Rubashkin has been feeding treife to the unwitting kosher consumer for years and you say "so what?" They have issues of salmonella, mad cow disease and feces covered poultry, and you say, "so what?" There is clear evidence of animal cruelty, and you say "so what?" What are you, some kind of sadist?

Is the best that Engelmeyer and 5W can come up with? "So what?"

[Kenny]

Don't misrepresent what I said. The "so what" was for the ridiculous line of commenting that served only to blast someone for doing their job. As to the remainder of your post, it is also filled with allegations. None of what you wrote is verifiable. You may be right. I have no idea. However, saying it doesn't make it so "Steve". If they are doing wrong, they should be punished. But you don't know that they are, and you are simply regurgitating what someone has told you, combined with your opinion of what is treife and what isn't.

Also, just because i don't think you should blast Engelmayer/5W, doesn't mean I work for or with them. Perhaps (and you might find this hard to believe since you clearly approve of personal attacks) I just think it's pointless and stupid. Resorting to personal attacks simply means you know you have no argument and no leg to stand on.

[Roger Mayim]

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

[Shmarya]

You're also blasting a company over allegations. I agree that it looks bad. So what? Does anyone here really know what happened? Maybe Rubashkin is good, maybe they're evil. Maybe they're just like everyone else. The point is, no one knows

Yup. That's right. Everyone uses meat hooks to rip out the throats of live animals.

The same for stealing union dues or OSHA violations or EPA violations. And the list goes on.

You may not work for 5W, but you certainly think and act like someone who does.

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Kenny,

To truly understand what's going on, visit:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

and read ALL of the posted letters, which are in the public domain.

Then, you will be able to comment rationally on this blog.

[steve]

None of what you wrote is verifiable.

See the USDA report, PETA video and KAJ letter. Also, read about the recent congressional hearing. Do your research and then come back here. If this is not "verifiable" enough, then you are another conspiracy theorist.

Also, you're "so what" comment was in regards to the allegations which you admitted that they "look bad".

[Kenny]

1) I am able to comment rationally without going to an animal rights site.

2) I'm a conspiracy theorist? What makes a me a conspiracy theorist? That I don't completely swallow what you're saying as absolute fact?

[Shmarya]

1) I am able to comment rationally without going to an animal rights site.

2) I'm a conspiracy theorist? What makes a me a conspiracy theorist? That I don't completely swallow what you're saying as absolute fact?

The USDA found against Rubashkin. So did the EPA. So did Iowa OSHA. So did the NLRB.

You're not a conspiracy theorist, Kenny. You're a troll.

[steve]

The government reports speak for themselves. The video speaks for itself. The only defense at this point is vast conspiracy.

[Kenny]

So thinking personal attacks are stupid and pointless and NOT believing in conspiracies makes me a troll and a conspiracy theorist? How do I get the trifecta?

[Kenny]

So thinking personal attacks are stupid and pointless and NOT believing in conspiracies makes me a troll and a conspiracy theorist? How do I get the trifecta?

[Kenny]

So thinking personal attacks are stupid and pointless and NOT believing in conspiracies makes me a troll and a conspiracy theorist? How do I get the trifecta?

[Shmarya]

No. When you completely ignore fact and endorse criminals, people tend to view you as a bad guy.

[John K. Diamond]

[1) I am able to comment rationally without going to an animal rights site.]

The letters on the PETA web site are the primary foundational documentation relative to the ongoing Rubashkin Kashrut Scandals.

These are written letters, by PETA, the OU, Nathan Lewin, KAJ and other parties in this issue, NOT OPINIONS.

Any rational person, who would want to come to their own opinion about a controversy, would first examine what has officially been put in writing.

Now do your proper homework, or simply go away.

[Kenny]

So thinking personal attacks are stupid and pointless and NOT believing in conspiracies makes me a troll and a conspiracy theorist? How do I get the trifecta?

[Kenny]

This is ridiculous. I formed no conclusions. I simply posed that there may be more to the issue and that personal attacks are pointless.

Posters who want to own this board and to discourage others from posting comments they disagree with are acting childishly. "Do my homework"? I'm not disputing you about Rubashkin. Everyone here has their own opinions; unfortunately most are clearly completely formed and not entitled to even reading something potentially contrary.

Why bother coming to a board when all you want is confirmation of the rightness of your view?

[Kenny]

This is ridiculous. I formed no conclusions. I simply posed that there may be more to the issue and that personal attacks are pointless.

Posters who want to own this board and to discourage others from posting comments they disagree with are acting childishly. "Do my homework"? I'm not disputing you about Rubashkin. Everyone here has their own opinions; unfortunately most are clearly completely formed and not entitled to even reading something potentially contrary.

Why bother coming to a board when all you want is confirmation of the rightness of your view?

[Kenny]

This is ridiculous. I formed no conclusions. I simply posed that there may be more to the issue and that personal attacks are pointless.

Posters who want to own this board and to discourage others from posting comments they disagree with are acting childishly. "Do my homework"? I'm not disputing you about Rubashkin. Everyone here has their own opinions; unfortunately most are clearly completely formed and not entitled to even reading something potentially contrary.

Why bother coming to a board when all you want is confirmation of the rightness of your view?

[Kenny]

Sorry for the triple posts. I must be having a JavaScript issue.

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Kenny,

If you don't want to go to the PETA site for information, below is a post from a Jewish resident of Postville [State of the Jews], which gives a good summary of the issue. It is in response to an email by Rabbi Seth Mandel, Head of OU Kashrut.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Response to Rav Mandel:

“Agri does produce a large share of the glatt kosher beef sold in the US (although I would not rely much on the percentages reported in the newspapers).

Absolutely true. No one has ever offered a shred of evidence regarding the size of Agri’s share in the kosher meat or poultry market.

“Kosher workers do not pry into the lives of gentile workers, nor do they go into the isolated warehouses which are the only possible places to produce illicit materials.”

Wrong. Although it has not been proven, it is possible that drugs were manufactured in the plant. Meat and poultry processing plants use large quantities of chemicals which are mixed inside the plant. Neither mashgiachim, shochtim or US government inspectors are present during third shift when the plant is cleaned. These officials come in first thing in the morning and “inspect” for cleanliness at that time. As improbable as it may seem it is conceivable that illicit drugs were manufactured in the plant mixing room. No one would notice if one or two extra people were working away for hours in the mixing room while the cleaning crew was working elsewhere in the plant.

“So they (mashgichim and shochtim) do not know about allegations of sexual abuse, methamphetamine labs, beatings, and other allegations.”

and,

“There are no beatings or sexual mistreatment of workers or drug facilities in the operating areas of the plant.”

Wrong. I know of at least three instances where a “rabbi” beat a worker or demanded a worker lie to protect a Rabbi. One of those instances was documented in the ICE affidavit. A number of the sexual encounters took place in the operating areas of the plant – specifically in the offices of the supervisors during daytime operations!

” There are also no workers that look underage. I go all over the plant when I visit, and the mashgichim that work for the OU also do, but only into areas where meat is processed.”

Perhaps one tip off might have been that some of the boys weren’t shaving yet! It begs credulity to think that you didn’t recognize Bar Mitzvah aged children just because they weren’t Jewish or were wearing a smock. One has to assume out of kindness, that the thought never entered your head that children might be working there which is why you weren’t looking. You know Rabbi Mandel, any bouncer at any bar can recognize an underage kid with bad credentials trying to get in. The “everyone had good credentials” defense holds about as much water as the “everyone else does it” defense.

“ We do not visit the water treatment plant, nor the sheds where some materials are stored, nor houses where gentile workers live.”

Perhaps if you cared, you would have tried to meet workers on neutral territory, outside of the plant like in, G-d forbid, a Church – someplace workers would feel safe to openly express what was going on there. Any idiot could walk around that plant and feel and see the fear in the workers. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see it. I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but I also believe you have to dig beneath the surface to get to the truth. Ronald Reagan used to say, “make peace but verify.” The OU fell down when it did not take steps to verify what was being said about Agri. I grew up in the wholseale food business and when we suspected there were a group of workers stealing from the company we hired a private investigator to send in a "mole" (sound familiar). It didn't take him long discover the culprits and we stopped it cold. You could have dealt with this quietly but forcefully. There was no need for this scandal to erupt publicly. What I, and many others, would be much more impressed with, is if the OU admitted its mistake, removed its haschacha (if for no other reason then to protect its "brand") so we could all move on.

“In any large plants, some workers have complaints. I have been to other companies where the conditions appear to be worse, and to others where the conditions are better. Many workers who have complaints eventually leave the company they work for or are fired, and then they spread allegations to whomever is willing to listen. Some allegations of ex-employees prove to be true, others prove to be false.”

Agreed.

“In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct.”

I find it repugnant that the OU willfully ignores evidence when it is presented. You cannot argue that Agri didn’t knowingly hired underage kids. Eighteen were picked up during the ICE raid, only a fraction of those who actually worked there. By turning a blind eye to the human tragedy that was taking place at Agri, the OU has contributed to the enormous harm done to the image of the Jewish community and to kashrus observance. The fact that more than a month after the raid this is still a major topic of discussion in synagogues across the country is a tribute to the collusion and hubris exhibited by Agri and the OU.

“According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews.”

We are also required to confront those that do harm:
I will act as a relentless accuser against those who cheat laborers of their hire.
(Malachi 3:5)

“ All the more so if the facts have not yet been established.”

See the issue of children mentioned above.

”The government has not yet indicted any plant manager, let alone any of the Rubashkin family; reportedly they are still sifting through the evidence. The only thing beyond the arrests of workers that has happened is that a guidance counselor in Postville who has worked with immigrants for years has been summoned to appear before a grand jury.”

Between six and eight subpoenas were delivered to the executive offices of Agri approximately four weeks ago. It has been reported that one supervisor has fled the country.

“We have certified Rubashkin for years, and I can assure you there are no kashrus problems at Postville more than occasional mistakes that happen anywhere, and when mistakes do happen, they are corrected.”

Being reactive is not good enough. The OU needs to be proactive. Calling Agri's business decisions a "mistake" is an insult to the readers of this blog. A mistake is something that happens in error. Agri's actions were the result of cold, calaulating decision making. Quite simply put: greed.
Rabbis like Moshe Feinstein in effect found ways to rule non-union produce treif and did so again with cage-raised veal. They did so out of concern for the suffering and exploitation of workers and animals. At Agri, the OU seems to go out of its way to do the opposite – koshering abuses of all sorts as long as the slating, soaking and deveining is done correctly.

“There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.”

I suggest you talk to ICE.

“The fact that the UFCWI (the union that is trying to unionize Agri) is putting ads in Jewish newspapers featuring all the allegations, rumors and innuendos that anyone has made does not constitute a heter for Jews to follow suit.”

Magicians call this "mis-direction" get the audience to look at something else while you pull the wool over their eyes. Blaming unions for the OU's failure to safeguard the ethics of kashrut shows a lack of respect for kosher consumers.

As Pogo said, "We have meet the enemy and he is us."

At a minimum, these allegations, Federal and State charges, fines and regulatory judgments against Agri are cause for the kosher consumer to act with extreme caution. That means that Jews are well within their halachic rights to share the information made public about Agri and to choose to avoid eating Agri products until Agri is sold to someone within whom the kosher consumer can again have confidence.

Posted by: state of the Jews | June 23, 2008 at 09:06 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[michael ben drosai]

kenny - pretty frickin amazing isn't it - there's no reasoning with these people - it's like animal farm - they all just bleat "two legs bad - 4 legs good" mindlessly
every person who expresses anything but outrage is immediately marginalized, made the subject of ad hominem attacks by the bleaters - their "Truth" is little better
don't waste your breath here (not that I don't agree with you that there are legitimate issues) but it requires an ability to be nuanced which unfortunately eludes most if not all of the cheering squad here - good luck trying to find an honest forum - try jcarrot - they're also ranters but have slightly more tolerance for legitimate disagreement

[Kenny]

I am not Agriprocessor's lawyer, nor am I their PR firm. However, this response is also filled with allegation hyperbole and innuendo. "Human rights tragedy"? Really? Tragedy? "Not Shaving" C'mon. Does everyone of working age shave? "It is possible", etc.

Again, perhaps, even probably, there were abuses at this plant. If there were, they should be punished. However, none of these posts refute my original premise/post.

Also, possibly having the same view as a PR firm is not wrong. However, many posters here are so blinded by how "right" they are, not only will they only tolerate their own views, they automatically resort to attacks on those who have the nerve to not see the world through their eyes.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have to add to my list:

#21. Who knows what the truth is? Everybody has a right to their own opinion.

[state of the Jews]

Kenny:
Try and get the quote correct. I said it was a "human tragedy," not a "human rights tragedy."
And it is. It is a tragedy that reaches all the way from Postville to Guatemala. I suggest you read Prenza Libre, a Guatemalan newspaper that has detailed how many lives in that country have been negatively impacted. It is the tragedy of families broken apart, of US born citizens, children, forced to move to countries they do not know and to speak a language they barely know. It is a tragedy of mothers and children deported to one country, while fathers are deported to another. It is the tragedy of proud but illiterate people, once able to support themselves, now dependent on food handouts and help from the local church's in order to survive until they are deported. It is a human tragedy because little children cry out for their missing fathers and their mothers don't know what to say to them. It is a tragedy because all of this was done so that you and I could eat kosher meat.

As for shaving, if you can't get your head around that, try this: they look like Bar Mitzvah aged kids. You know what a Bar Mitzvah bochur looks like, don't you Kenny? Think they should be pulling the guts out of a chicken on an eviseration line, ten hours a day? Think someone in personnel at the plant might be as smart as a bouncer at bar and be able to tell the difference between a 14 year old and an eighteen year old? Give it up Kenny. It isn't a question of whether the plant owners, managers or supervisors followed the letter of the law. Its whether they had a sense of right and wrong. Whether they believe in derech eretz, not in word but in deed, and not in reference to Yidden, but to ALL those poor people who worked for them. You don't need a court of law and a judge to know the answer. You need to go to Postville and talk to the victims and then you need to look in your heart and ask yourself, are these people -- the plant owners -- people who's standard of kashrus the community should trust?

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Yochanan and State of the Jews,

Many thanks for your posts, trying to get "Kenny" to understand that Truth needs no defense.

There are certainly "subjective" things over which two people may have a difference of "Opinion". One example would be two people in a room, one very sensitive to heat and the other very sensitive to cold. One would say "It's too hot in here" and the other "It's too cold in here." Both of them would be correct.

But regarding "objective" issues, there is no middle ground. It's either true or false.

HaShem wrote in his Torah, "You shall not abuse a worker."

Rubashkin has abused workers and inflicted unspeakable torture on animals for years. These are "objective facts" that anyone can verify by looking at the documented evidence.

Kenny and others of his ilk won't look at the evidence in an objective way, yet tell the rest of us who have, that we don't know what we are talking about - priceless !!!

[michael ben drosai]

Rubashkin has abused workers and inflicted unspeakable torture on animals for years. These are "objective facts" that anyone can verify by looking at the documented evidence.

wow - I gotta hand it to you - you never cease to amaze me with your relentless jingoism and cultlike obsession with your own self righteousness and the correctness of your position - where is the unspeakable cruelty thing from? Richard's imbecilic shot of a tear coming from the cow's eye in his puff piece self styled crocumentary? FYI - cows don't cry when they're sad - they cry - as do we - when they get dust or a foreign object in their eye?
and John oh keeper of the proven, the absolute truth - how much time have you spent in Postville? what workers have you spoken to? or how much is just recycled second hand smoke?
your inability or reluctance to concede any truth other than the one you claim to possess is truly frightening (and amusing)
thank G-d the unholy mezuman of you richard and roberta the yenta have marginalized yourselves because of your militancy - if you were reasonable we'd actually be worried that you might make a difference