Interview With An Agriprocessors Mashgiach

The Jew and the Carrot has an interview with a former mashgiach at Agriprocessors, the Postville, Iowa slaughterhouse and meat packer that produces Rubashkin's, Aaron's Best, Shor HaBor, Supreme Kosher and other brands.

The mashgiach…

…sees little criminally wrong with Agriprocessors. But this is largely because Leah Koenig, the J and C blogger who did the interview, asks large, open-ended questions that are sparse on details. The mashgiach isn't asked about worker abuse, different colored paychecks for illegals, and the like.

Here's an example:

What is your personal response to what happened?

I actually didn’t know much about it until recently. I’m not really into general news or Chabad news in particular. So, I feel like I don’t know enough, but from what I heard, it makes a lot of sense to me. It seems very typical, considering that the way they managed the company is kind of unprofessional. I felt that the company becomes involved when it’s forced to by a crisis, but they’re not all about crisis-prevention. They’re not organized in that fashion. So to hear that something like this came up doesn’t surprise me. I don’t think they’re monsters or deliberately trying to hurt anyone. It’s their lack of professionalism.

Agriprocessors’ management has rankings. You have the average “Mexican worker,” and then there’s a higher up Mexican that’s in charge of the workers. He reports to an American in the role of Division Manager. And next you have the Factory Manager. And finally you have the top, which are the Rubashkins themselves. The managers are often very hardliner people – they’re not compassionate or sensitive. They have a huge plant to run. There are tons of rules and regulations coming at them from all sides. They have the Rabbis telling them they need to stop the line because of a kashrut concern or rectification that needs to be taken care of, and then 5 minutes later the USDA representative shuts the line for his own reasons. Meanwhile their job is to keep things running smoothly and fill the orders. So everyone is under a lot of pressure. I can imagine things falling through the cracks in such a hectic environment.

Here is more of the same:

Did you get the sense that they were tuned in with what was going on at the plant on a day-to-day level?

They’re more disconnected from the day-to-day, as they dealt with “bigger” issues. I often felt that it would be to their advantage as business owners to make it a deliberate thing to walk through the entire plant every day – even for 10 minutes. It would accomplish two things. First, they’d be able to see how things were running – to see if a machine was broken down or something. Second, and more importantly, it would build morale for them to smile, get to know the workers’ names and ask how they’re doing.

It’s just a nice thing to do, but it’s also smart for business morale because the workers would feel like part of a family and feel more committed. You kind of have to be a politician in that line of work – you have to smile and shake peoples’ hands – and be genuine. Aaron Rubashkin used to visit once a month from Brooklyn for a day, and he’d walk around and smile and joke around with the workers. He did that and they loved him. But the other ones, I never saw them come down unless there was a problem.

Notice that J and C is willing to create the overall impression that the Rubashkin family is only guilty of not paying close attention to their plant's operations, and that the real offenses were done by others – presumably non-Jews. This even though there is much evidence – some going back as far as 1997 – that documents the Rubashkin family's direct role in both the knowing recruitment of illegal workers and in worker abuse.

That impression is tenable only because Leah Koenig does not discuss the actual allegations against Agriprocessors or cite any of the evidence against it.

Here's one more excerpt from the interview, notable for what it confirms:

What did the residents in Postville think about the Rubashkins and Agriprocesors?

Generally, the non-Jews had a negative perspective and it is debatable why. Some said it was anti-Semitism and others said it was for more legitimate reasons. It’s definitely a clash of cultures. You’re talking about Chassidic Jews, many who are Israeli up against the most extreme “Americans” – people born and raised in Iowa all their lives. Simple, laid back folk. So in a sense its like “Iowa vs. New York.”

And of course the Chassidic community is very insular, so that caused some resentment. And on top of it, Agriprocessors brought along with it 700 Mexicans into the community, which only meant more diversity, which probably caused some resentment as well. The Jews, on the other hand, mostly looked up to the Rubashkins for what they’ve done.

This confirms what Stephen Bloom wrote in his 2000 book Postville: A Clash of Cultures in Heartland America and what Chabad and the Rubashkin family denied, going as far as saying Bloom's book was full of lies.

But even with its faults, this is an important interview. Please read it here.

Interview with an Agriprocessors Mashgiach.pdf

Comments

[Paul Freedman]

This is interesting example about a point of view, National Public Radio, crafting a left-wing story about meanie immigration racists devasting a hard-working Hispanic community painted an opposite picture, the one that suited their needs: an idyllic heartland outpost of diversity in action, with gentile and Chabad, anglo and Mexican, all getting along and sharing intercommunal work, social, and interfaith experiences until the federal government for no good reason comes along and starts deporting everybody.

[steve]

Meanwhile their job is to keep things running smoothly and fill the orders. So everyone is under a lot of pressure. I can imagine things falling through the cracks in such a hectic environment

This statement alone speaks volumes. I wonder how many pounds of non-kosher meat "fell through the cracks" and was labeled kosher "in such a hectic environment", where "everyone is under a lot of pressure" to "fill the orders"?

[state of the Jews]

how many pounds of non-kosher meat "fell through the cracks" and was labeled kosher "in such a hectic environment", where "everyone is under a lot of pressure" to "fill the orders"?

Probably a lot more then anyone will admit.

[evanstonjew]

I found this article interesting. It may have already been posted.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/NEWS/805130406

[uncle joe mccarthy]

so this mashgiach admits that mexicans were brought into work....diversity my eye...this is about destroying the local economy

used to be that when a plant opened or was taken over, the locals got the bulk of the jobs

the rubashkins are not very good americans

[jerry]

Hey uncle joe, the jobs that the mexicans were doing were NOT taken from the locals as most of them were employed at Agriprocessors already! why foot YOU in to Iowa and take that "stolen" job back?

[Sarah]

Uncle Joe,
What would ever make you think these Chassids want to be good Americans? It is probably the farthest thing from their mind.
Good Shabbos to all.
Sarah

[jerry]

Hey uncle joe, the jobs that the mexicans were doing were NOT taken from the locals as most of them were employed at Agriprocessors already! why foot YOU in to Iowa and take that "stolen" job back?

[jerry]

* why don't YOU go to Iowa and take that "stolen" job back?

[Shmarya]

Hey uncle joe, the jobs that the mexicans were doing were NOT taken from the locals as most of them were employed at Agriprocessors already!

False.

Most locals do NOT work at Agriprocessors.

Further, the jobs illegals took at $5 and $6 per hour paid more than 2x that BEFORE Rubashkin.

What Rubashkin did was drive wages down by recruiting illegal workers.

[yidandahalf]

I don't think one would have to be an "Extreme American" from the heartland to find the Postville settler Jews frightening, strange, off putting, arrogant, rude, and conducive to generating anti-semitism and xenophobia. I don't know if I would put J&C in the same category that the FORWARD has joined though. The orbit of spin originating with LubiCON now welcomes its newest members VIN and the FORWARD. Thank you Forward for selling out to Rubashkin and providing deliberately misleading coverage made to look 'uninformed' and not yet 'uptodate'. Since your new editor is willing to compromise the truth I will not renew my subscription and after all, if I read about one more JEWISH MUSEUM I will puke.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yid & 1/2: Since Seth Lipsky left the Farts has become leftwing, and like NPR it celebrates diversity- like singing Kumbaya in Yiddish and Spanish in Iowa.

New slogan for Chabad: We want mashgiach now!

[yidandahalf]

YL, what can I say? You say it very well, LOL!

[Andy]

Before I make any comments, I will state for the record that my family has boycotted Rubashkin products for years now. I will not purchases from a company that engages in ruthless, uncaring, and unethical business practices.

Shmarya, I generally agree with most of your commentary, but here I must take note that you are missing the point. In your desire to always point the finger at Rubashkin management (which is both despicable and deplorable), the mashgiach raises valid points articulately. I am not certain your background (from a work experience), but the problems and solutions that the mashgiach points out are valid. Almost every corporate manager is told to perform a "walk-through" so that the employees have the opportunity to management and management understands the worker problems.

More than anything else here, I think that the Rubashkins just DON'T care. As long as the product is delivered, they don't care how it is done. They are guilty of being uncaring and unethical business owners, hardly the first in America. So, they put pressure on the managers to get product out the door. And they import workers, regardless nationality and legality. Basically, they could care less about who and what they run over in the process.

Yes, the rubashkins are absolutely 100% responsible for whatever happens in the plant. However, the problem here is not a Jewish problem. It has only become a Jewish problem because those in power (e.g. the OU) are not exercising a heavy hand. Trust me, if these same abuses were happening in a non-kosher, non-chabad plant, you would not care. It's sad that we treat this as a Jewish problem, but it's not at all. This problem has nothing to do about religion, except that religion is used as an excuse and an armor of protection.

[Shmarya]

Trust me, if these same abuses were happening in a non-kosher, non-chabad plant, you would not care.

I would care. I probably wouldn't devote much space to it, though, simply because it would not be a specifically Jewish issue.

[steve]

It's sad that we treat this as a Jewish problem, but it's not at all. This problem has nothing to do about religion

You are wrong. This has EVERYTHING to do with religion. Ethical treatment of workers and animals are basic tenets of our religion. Also, when the owner of a food business is deemed untrustworthy, then the products he produces cannot be labeled "kosher", especially when the difference in price between kosher and non-kosher is so drastic.

[Sholom]

In responce to Steve, we have to put our trust in the mashgiachs that are there representing the OU and are governed by the OU and not Rubashkins,so with all this I am very confident the kosher aspect of the business isn't comprimised.( They eat there own products as weel)
What Andy said is right if this happend and it has happend to other non-jewish companies it would go unnoticed but unfortunetly some people are using the misfortune at Agri to there soap box preaching benefit which I feel is just as bad.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Loosing My Appetite (with apologies to REM)

The law is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not frum
The lengths that you will go to
The expiration date on your "dogs"
Oh no Shmarya said too much
We are fed up

That's me in the coroner [after eating rubbishcan]
That's rubbishcan in the spotlight
Abusing my religion
Trying to keep kosher with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
The OU hasn't said enough
I thought that I heard you cheating I thought that I heard ICE sting
I think I thought I heard you schrei ["gevalt!"]

Every Shiksa
And every Gentile employee
Making no confessions
Trying to keep their jobs
Like some hurt lost and blinded fools
Oh no they've said too much
They've been set up

Consider this
The kosher crime of the century
Consider this
The throat hook that brought the cow
To its knees failed
What if all these nevailot
Come flailing around
Now I've parodied too much
I thought that I heard you davening
I thought that I smelled meat stink
I think I'll call the FBI

But that was just a nevuoah
Justice is just a dream

[steve]

In response to Sholom, the OU does not have their mashgichim on site. They are relying solely on the hashgacha of Rabbi Weissmandl. Rabbi Weissmandl's mashgichim are there to watch the shechita and to examine animals for tarfus. They have no control over the labeling and shipping. Weissmandl is relying on the integrity of management when it comes to proper labeling. When supposedly 70% of the output is not kosher, shouldn't there be a mashgiach watching how the orders are filled, that they are not taking from one side to fill the other? Furthermore, if they are the largest kosher meat producer in the U.S., shouldn't they allow unannounced visits from impartial outside mashgichim? Furthermore, why is every employee and mashgiach forced to sign a contract that states that he cannot discuss the kashrus at the plant, or risk a $5,000 fine?

[Andy]

Thanks for all your comments.

The bottom line here is that as Jews, we expect other Jews to be ethical, moral, and law-abiding citizens. And for the most part, the Jews that I know (across the spectrum from secular to orthodox) are. In the case of kashruth, we expect the same standards, possibly more so because the providers of kosher meat symbolicly represent our tradition, all our tradition. So, when these individuals or groups fail in this regard, we are all disappointed.

When I first became more traditional (for the record, I am not orthodox), I heard many times that Judaism itself is not the problem, it's the people who ruin Judaism. And we see this behavior time and again, particularly in NYC and Jerusalem where certain Torah Jews believe that it is okay to treat others (whether non-orthodox Jews or gentiles) poorly in business dealings. (Thanks to this site for keeping tracking of these situations). Yet, the moment anyone criticizes these same Torah Jews (whether it be gentile or non-orthodox Jews), these same individuals scream anti-semitism. They are unwilling to look at themselves with the values upon which they judge everyone else.

Can anyone tell me (and this is not rhetorical question) when and why inspecting a egg for blood became more important than one's treatment of fellow man?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Andy write: "Can anyone tell me (and this is not rhetorical question) when and why inspecting a egg for blood became more important than one's treatment of fellow man?"

Andy: I guess they misinterpret "lo ta'mod al dom reichecha" to mean "do not stand by while your neighbor has blood in his eggs" rather than "do not stand by while your neighbor bleeds."

[yidandahalf]

To Andy's "this is not a Jewish problem". This will be the third time I bring up the neo-nazi and anti-semitic videos produced and uploaded onto youtube which SPECIFICALLY target Agriprocessors, Ka$hru$, and the OU. Please feel free to access them ( may I also recommend "Goy on the Go"? nothing to do with kashrus, just scary as hell and there are a couple of them ) then come back and repost 'this is not a Jewish problem.'

[yidandahalf]

Sholom, why do you have such seeminly high regard for the OU?

[Andy]

yidandahalf:

I believe you are missing my point. When I state that this "Is not a Jewish Problem", I meant that one has a responsibility (whether Jewish or not), to run their businesses ethically and legally. I'll post a hypothetical question: if an orthodox Jewish defrauded investors of millions of dollars, would that be a Jewish problem or a civil legal issue?

What I do believe is that how we RESPOND to this issue is ABSOLUTELY a Jewish problem based on our own ethical values and faith in the sanctity of kashruth. Yet, in any corrupt system, we can only address this by lobbying and boycotting, like anyone else in America with a problem with a company (remember the Southern Baptist boycott of Disney or the National Association of Women boycott of the Masters tournament).

Finally, though I certainly would like to view the videos you mention (can you refer me to the links), I don't know how neo-nazis factor into any argument here. Are there any threads where you discuss the relationship between neo-nazis and kashruth/business practices?

[yidandahalf]

It would be both, Jewish and law of the land.
The Rubashkin has made us more of a target for anti-semitism and the effect they have created has only just begun IMHO, but G-d forbid.
The threads I brought this topic up on were back during the SA shackle and hoist scandal. The anti-semites demonstrate the link with their Kosher Tax video. Just type that in youtube search. A 'kosher slaughter' search will bring up the nazi stuff if you scroll. You can find others this way each time a new video comes up, related ones will be in the scroll. They should be required viewing for every Jew.

[Eric]

Finally, some honest feedback.

I’m also going to continue eating Rubashkin’s products, like Aaron’s Best Corn Beef (real good)!! There is a rumor that all of this was a plot against them by their rival, Empire. Was Empire’s business doing that poorly that they needed to start spreading lies and create unnecessary attention to Rubashkins?

Also, one thing AgriProcessors is doing, and sadly Empire is not, is giving away meats and other foods to the Iowa victims of last week’s tragedy. Its horrible to hear about those people who lost so much, but at least they will still be able to feed their families, before getting back on the ground.

[Shmarya]

There is a rumor that all of this was a plot against them by their rival, Empire. Was Empire’s business doing that poorly that they needed to start spreading lies and create unnecessary attention to Rubashkins?

It's good to know Empire controls the US government.

Past that insane assertion, you may try wrapping your mind around this: There is a US Department of Justice investigation into price fixing and collusion in the kosher meat industry. Rubashkin is the primary target. Empire is a VICTIM.

As for what Agri gave away last week, I'd note two fairly obvious things:

1. Agri is based in Iowa. Empire is in Pennsylvania.
2. Agri gave a small amount of meat to its (former) workers hiding in the Catholic Church of Postville. A little bit for the PR value. Those workers were fed and helped for the next three weeks by donations from non-Orthodox Jews, Catholics and other people not affiliated with Rubashkin.

Finally, I find it appalling that a Jew who keeps kosher would willingly smear Empire to make Rubashkin look better.

Of course, Rubashkin is Chabad and Empire is not. Perhaps that is why you act as you do.

[yidandahalf]

Although it remains to be proven, it is understood that the Rubbishcan was in fact behind Trader Joe's dropping of Empire in favour of Agri Chickens due to mislabelling regarding true weight. There have been many instances of the Rubbishcan's manouevers and oriental strong arm marketing methods with little outcry. Now we hear that Empire, a chicken processor, is machinating against Agri beef operations. Really, my friend, the people who read FailedMessiah are a cut above ( no pun intended ) what you are evidently accustomed to and generally are most unlikely to fall in line behind such puny attempts at what passes for ethically charged and intelligent propaganda at El Rancho Rubbishcan.