Head Of OU Shechita Uses Lanner Excuse: Rubashkin Is The Chabad "Kiruv" Of Kosher Meat, No Worse Than Other Meat Plants – Criticism Of Rubashkin Is Lashon Hara

Well, either all other meat plants hire 13 year olds to illegally work chicken lines; recruit and hire illegal aliens and then provide them with forged ID; extort and abuse those same illegal workers; and engage in unfair and illegal business practices; or Rabbi Seth Mandel is…

…lying again.

As you read the following email* from Mandel posted by Ben Harris of the JTA, ask yourself one question: Can you trust this man to supervise your kosher meat?

I don't think so:

Date: Mon, 26 May 2008
From: “Mandel, Seth” <mandels@ou.org>
Subject: My response to the Agri issue

There is no question that much of what is said is loshon hora and r’chilus, because there are not that many people who know what actually goes on in meat plants in general and in this one in particular.

My relationship with Agriprocessors (the name of the Rubashkin meat company, which I shall abbreviate as Agri) is a professional one, and I consider it a good one. As with all companies that I supervise (and indeed, almost all companies that the OU supervises), we occasionally have differences, and then we have to make clear to the company that they must change certain practices to conform with OU standards or policies. Most kashrus professionals will tell you that the relationships with Gentiles is usually easier than with Jews, and that holds with meat companies as well. But Agri is by no means worse than most other Jewish companies.

Almost nothing in this world is all black or all white. Although Agri makes mistakes, one is obliged also to take into account the good that Agri does, which is often eclipsed by the latest newspaper articles.
Agri does produce a large share of the glatt kosher beef sold in the US (although I would not rely much on the percentages reported in the newspapers). This is because Agri has made it its business to produce kosher meat at relatively inexpensive prices and make it available throughout the United States. In many places in the US, Agri meat is the only glatt kosher meat available, and it is available in such places because Agri has made it its business to market and ship beef to any supermarket or store that has any interest. There is absolutely no question that there are many Jews who are eating kosher meat today only due to Agri. These are the Jews that would just as soon buy kosher meat, and are willing to pay some premium for it, but will not buy poor quality beef or will not travel long distances to get it. In a sense, just as Lubavitch nowadays generally speaking is in the business of kiruv, Agri is in the business of kiruv as far as meat goes. It aims to make decent quality glatt meat available everywhere it can at a decent price, and has been very successful in doing so.

I can tell you that Agri does not try to cut corners as far as kashrus goes, but does go as far as its rabbinic certification say it can. Most companies do the same. As far as I see, this is generally true of other facets of its business: Agri goes as far as other companies in the business go. Agri is no worse than other large meat packers. One can argue that a Jewish business owner should not be just as good as other comparable businesses, but better. That is a valid argument, but better practices entail higher costs. As I have said many times when I am questioned about more humane treatment of animals, cattle growers and meat packers today would be very happy to institute higher humane standards, but consumers must vote with their wallet. Most consumers will not pay a premium for free-range, natural or organic beef, no matter how much lip service they pay to the idea. The same thing holds true regarding employees and their working conditions. Meat packers would no problem with paying higher wages and make working conditions better — IF the consumers would pay the premium price thereby entailed.

The law makers in this country have created an impossible situation. They do not allow temporary workers in, knowing full well that much of the agricultural market and the meat market depend on such workers. If the workers cannot get here legally, they come illegally. The fact of the matter is that all large meat packers employ mostly immigrants, because almost no native-born Americans are willing to work in a meat plant for the low pay that makes inexpensive meat possible. Since it is impossible for the Mexicans and Guatamalans to come legally to work, they come illegally. So there are illegal immigrants at almost every large meat packer in the US.

If the government just wanted to arrest illegal immigrants, it could go to any large meat packer. But the government knows that as many illegal immigrants as it arrests and sends home, more will come, unless there is a legal worker program instituted. So it targets companies where it has reason to believe that management is involved in the knowingly hiring illegal aliens or in helping them get fraudulent documentation. Some people made allegations that Agri was involved in this, and so the government has been planning a raid on them for months. The search warrants make it clear that the government was looking for evidence to support this.

Is it true? I do not know, and venture to say that none of the shochatim and mashgichim in the plant know either. Although most shochatim and mashgichim gossip, they do not associate much with the gentile workers except during work, and even then contact is mostly on the work floor, since the kashrus workers have separate lunch rooms and break facilities. So they do not know about allegations of sexual abuse, methamphetamine labs, beatings, and other allegations. Kosher workers do not pry into the lives of gentile workers, nor do they go into the isolated warehouses which are the only possible places to produce illicit materials. There are no beatings or sexual mistreatment of workers or drug facilities in the operating areas of the plant. There are also no workers that look underage. I go all over the plant when I visit, and the mashgichim that work for the OU also do, but only into areas where meat is processed. We do not visit the water treatment plant, nor the sheds where some materials are stored, nor houses where gentile workers live. We also do not act as OSHA inspectors, interviewing workers to hear their complaints.

In any large plants, some workers have complaints. I have been to other companies where the conditions appear to be worse, and to others where the conditions are better. Many workers who have complaints eventually leave the company they work for or are fired, and then they spread allegations
to whomever is willing to listen. Some allegations of ex-employees prove
to be true, others prove to be false.

In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct. According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews. All the more so if the facts have not yet been established. The government has not yet indicted any plant manager, let alone any of the Rubashkin family; reportedly they are still sifting through the evidence. The only thing beyond the arrests of workers that has happened is that a guidance counselor in Postville who has worked with immigrants for years has been summoned to appear before a grand jury. He has not been arrested nor has any proof been given that he was involved in illegal activities, and in any event he is not an employee of Agri.

The position of the OU is that we require owners of meat businesses to be shomrei mitzvos and also abide by the law. The OU is following the actions and findings of the federal authorities and will act accordingly; we take violations of law very seriously. But the OU certainly does not assume a person guilty because of allegations, nor is any Jew allowed to. We have certified Rubashkin for years, and I can assure you there are no kashrus problems at Postville more than occasional mistakes that happen anywhere, and when mistakes do happen, they are corrected.

If an individual Jew has a problem with the way any Jew runs his business, he has the right to take his business elsewhere. But a Jew has no right to call for a boycott of another Jew without proof that he is doing something wrong. There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.

I fully understand that people wish that there would be no more scandals involving Agri. I wish so as well (and Agri does, too). But as another Jew once said (OK, one who believed that he was the moshiach), only those clean from sin should throw stones at others. The fact that the UFCWI (the union that is trying to unionize Agri) is putting ads in Jewish newspapers featuring all the allegations, rumors and innuendos that anyone has made does not constitute a heter for Jews to follow suit.

Seth Mandel

So Rubashkin knowingly recruits and hires an illegal workforce, paying them far below what Empire and other pay. He uses that unfair advantage (along with copious amounts of other shady practices) to undersell his kosher competition and drive them out of market after market.

Rubashkin's workers are exploited and abused, treated like dirt, made to work forced unpaid overtime and shifts as long as 17 hours.

This allows Rubashkin to sell kosher meat "cheaply" in Peoria, and this is what Seth Mandel calls "kiruv" (religious outreach).

This is the OU's Baruch Lanner problem all over again – every abuse is justified as long as the kiruv is good.

The OU is rotten to its core.

* Mandel told the JTA this is not the full version of the email and the this version is misleading. But he refused to be more specific or supply a "complete" version. Mandel also claimed the email was supposed to be "private," as if that would in any way let him off the hook for writing it.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'm suing him for not acknowledging my list:

7. Everybody hires illegals, so it's okay.

9. W/O Rubbishcan, no one will be able to find/afford kosher meat, and they'll have to eat treif.

[John K. Diamond]

So the OU is still lying about Agri, as they have done consistently since December, 2004.

Please see the URL below:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp

It's time that a class action Federal lawsuit against the OU be considered, for passing off treif meat as Kosher in interstate commerce for who knows how many decades.

[shmuel]

It's about time an orthodox rabbi quotes Jesus correctly and gives him attribution, though it would have been even nicer had he offered the chapter and verse of the particular gospel. Rabbis in this country quote Jesus all the time, completely unaware that Jesus was actually the source of their quote ("Do as they say, don't do as they do" is a big favorite, unaware that he was dissing the rabbis of his day with that thought).
I am absolutely speechless. This is the head of kashrus of the OU, and he's (knowingly) quoting Jesus. I give up.

[ABribeBlindsTheEyesOfTheWise]

When my wife argued that we should stop accepting the OU because of their reaction to the Lanner incident(*), I told her she was crazy. The OU would treat kashrut seriously because kashrut, unlike children, was important. As usual, she was right and I was wrong.

(*) Her exact quote: "How can we trust them with our food if we can't trust them with our children?"

[Carol Ann Varley]

In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus denounces kashrut. To paraphrase: nothing which goes into the stomach defiles the soul, it is our thoughts that defile the soul. According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

[Yochanan Lavie]

According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

Posted by: Carol Ann Varley | June 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM

According to the OU, all food produced by bearded Jews is kosher.

[steve]

According to the OU, all food whose licensing fees have been paid for is kosher.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.ws]

B"H
I like his letter, very common sense.

[John K. Diamond]

With all due respect, Reb Ari, Mandel's email is nothing but a bunch of half-truths and outright lies.

Visit:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

to get the whole truth.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

nice to see that the ou is now on the side of the corporatists

so when will the ou start recruiting guest workers to cut down on the costs of their high priced secretaries and support staff

i am glad that i stopped supporting this organization during the lanner crisis

they havent changed their ways...they are corrupt and care only about one thing...the bottom line

eff em

[uncle joe mccarthy]

Carol

it was not jesus that changed the laws of kashrut, it was paul, who had a dream that jesus came to him and told him ham sandwiches were cool

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.ws]

B"H
Dear Carol An
You write:

In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus denounces kashrut. To paraphrase: nothing which goes into the stomach defiles the soul, it is our thoughts that defile the soul. According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

Posted by: Carol Ann Varley | June 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM

It seems You misunderstand what he meant to say and or take it out of the full context of his teachings.
1st of all he wasn't talking about kashrus which is a Torah commandment but washing of hands which is tradition,:

NT Mathew 15-Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
….
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Talmud.

2nd in another chapter of Mathew he is quoted as saying that whoever disregards even the smallest mitzvah (devine commandment) from the Torah and teaches that to others shall be the least one in the kingdom of heaven.
he said :

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So when you or anyone else who proclaims his alegience to the teachings of J. but disregards kosher and the Shabat etc. you can't quote him as your source because he never preached that.
He preached increased emphasis on ethics in a society that was (in his view) more devoted to obeying ritual laws and customs than the spirit of the Torah yet he had no power to nullify mitzvot (commandments)and he taught his deciples to listen to the Perushim (Pharisies) in everything:
Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

[uncle joe mccarthy]

btw,

there is no concept in the torah of he who is without sin may cast the first stone...this would be an impossibility and would mean no one could ever give tochacha or sit on a court of law.

if this letter is truly from rav mandel, he should be removed from his post as an apikoros

and as an apikoros, he is chayav meesa and i would be happy to toss him off the cliff and dump a huge boulder on him

Uncle Joe: Why is Mandel an apikorus? The Rubbishcans also believe in a dead messiah, and they have OU approval!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sorry, the above post is mine.

[Archie Bunker]

For once I have to agree with John K. Diamond:

"It's time that a class action Federal lawsuit against the OU be considered, for passing off treif meat as Kosher in interstate commerce for who knows how many decades."

[moshe]

So the OU, the shochtim and mashgichim don't look beyond themselves and see nothing wrong. Can we conclude then that kosher supervision and slaughter at Agri is done by monkeys who see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.

Nevermind the fact that 12 agencies of the Federal Gov't investigated Rubbishcan for 6 months. Right, it was all for no reason. The OU has FAR more resources and capabilities than the U.S. Govt.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

But as another Jew once said

LOL! How desperate do you have to be to use Jesus to support your argument. Methinks the "rabbi" needs to learn more Torah and put down his NT.

[Archie Bunker]

Incidentally, Vicky Polin reports this week on her Jewish Survivors blog that Baruch Lanner is hanging around the kosher Dunkin Donuts in Elizabeth, NJ, to befriend children. She urges anyone witnessing it to call 911.

[David N. Friedman]

I have read Seth Mandel's e-mail and I have broad agreement with his point of view. From what I have read--yes, I would trust this man to supervise a situation.

He did not give his permission to publish it--I find that fact disturbing.

I have read as much as I can regarding this entire issue and it appears there is much prejudice against the Potsville facility. People like to believe that if there is smoke there is fire and this might be the case but I agree with Seth Mandel's point that especially as Jews, we need to see what facts are actually in evidence.

As a Jewish businessman, I would never hire an illegal. However, I say this with a small business of less than 10 employees. Can I be sure of what I might do if I had hundreds of employees and directly responsible with only the Jewish ones? In an industry such as meat packing or construction, having hundreds of people--it is very tough to warrant zero illegals. The fact they are illegal is more damning than what they are paid.

I think it is legitimate to consider if there is a contrast between Empire and Agri and if Empire can do it the right way, so can Agri. I trust Seth Mandel might have a point concerning the standards in any situation and I am surely willing to give a basically honest business a chance to remedy any defects that become known to them.

More facts are necessary in order to condemn this business. If I did not have the option, I will continue to buy Agri products.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

mr friedman,

we arent talking 1 or 2 illegals, but 300

300

let that sink into your head a bit

and why is the ou and rav mandel, the org in charge of overseeing the kashrut of the facility, working as a pr arm for agri??

there is something very wrong here, and this shows that the ou, by its very nature is not independent of many of the facilities it oversees

i dont know what kind of biz you run, but i am sure that if someone gets bad product, they wont be over averas

well, that isnt the case with agri

[steve]

David, the issues with Agri did not start with the May 12 raid. There have been several other serious issues such as health violations, safety violations, animal cruelty and kashrus issues. There was a report put out by the USDA that was over 500 pages that detailed the health and safety issues. Agri had more violations than all the other slaughterhouses combined. There was a U.S. Congressional hearing that dealt with these violations. All of these issues point to one thing, the lack of honesty and integrity in how the Rubashkins conduct their business. When there is a lack of trust, then one cannot rest assured that the food is kosher. Just recently the KAJ pulled their hashgacha because they cannot supervise them "according to their standards". Rubashkin lied with their press release stating that it was their decision, not the KAJ's, to remove the supervision. Once again, lack of integrity and honesty.

[Y. Aharon]

I remember Rabbi Seth Mandel's writing before he became the overall supervisor at the OU for shechitah. I considered him to be the star contributor to the Avodah discussion list which also featured other distinguished and knowledgeable writers. He is highly knowledgeable in various areas besides halacha - especially, linguistics. The quality of his writing is also evident in the cited post.

However, I can't support his stance on the Postville issue. Aside from the question of labor practices that will be addressed by the legal system, there is the question of the shechitah process and general health and safety issues in that plant. Certainly, the shechitah process falls under the responsibility of the certifying agencies, including the OU. Dr. Temple Grandin has stated that the upside-down pen used in the Postville shechitah terrifies the animals and results in a slower lapse into unconsciousness. There is also a question of the shochet having adequate access to the animals throat to do a proper shechitah. These are halachic questions on the shechitah. At best, it seems to me, they can be justified after the fact (bidi'eved). After the fact, however, is not the standard we would expect from something labeled "Glatt". Why, therefore, does the OU permit this practice? The fact that the "mehadrin standard" in Israel apparently requires such shechitah, does not make it right. The OU posek on meat products at the OU is Rav Belsky, and he considers upside-down shechitah to be an unwarranted novel interpretation of an halachic statement in the Shulchan Aruch (Shach).

Y. Aharon

[Yochanan Lavie]

David Friedman: Next time, just post the number from my list of standard Rubbishcan excuses. We've heard them so many times before that I have numbered them.

[David N. Friedman]

Please stop the heated rhetoric regarding my common sense posting. I have little at stake in defending Rubuskhin--I simply want to find the facts first before condemnation.

I have observed that this company has its share of defenders such as Seth Mandel and these people have witnessed the company first hand, know the scene and decline to make such an indictment. I am simply an outside observer without any knowledge of the facts but willing to give a legitimate business a fair hearing.

If there are USDA violations--we need to know what they are instead of simply citing the fact that there are alleged violations since a technical violation of USDA standards may or may not be meaningful. Further, I would like to know if these violations are of a quality far different than industry norms.

From what I have read, there are people who will never eat their product again. Yet, I believe that it is fair to say that a complete story has yet to emerge and this is why it makes sense to wait and see.

[Shmarya]

f there are USDA violations--we need to know what they are instead of simply citing the fact that there are alleged violations since a technical violation of USDA standards may or may not be meaningful. Further, I would like to know if these violations are of a quality far different than industry norms.

So, let me get this straight.

1. You did no research, not even simple research like searching this site.

2. You choose to believe Seth Mandel – who is nogeia b'davar (has a conflict of interest, to say the least), rather than believe other testimony.

Why not start learning?

[John K. Diamond]

Another thing you can do, Mr. Friedman, per Shmarya's request that you learn, is to read all the official letters between PETA, Rubashkin, OU, KAJ, Nathan Lewin, etc. in the public domain concerning the first AgriProcessors Shechitah Scandal at:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

This will give you a very detailed background to understand what's going on now and how the OU has consistently lied about this ongoing issue.

[Paul Freedman]

Ariel, imo you continue to surpirse and delight..

[Yochanan Lavie]

1. It's loshon hara/we should dan l'chaf zchut.
2. It is against Daas Torah to question rabbis.
3. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
4. Shmarya just wanted to bag a Rubbishcan babe; it's a vendetta.
5. It's a vast gov't conspiracy.
6. It's anti-Semitism/self-hating Jews
7. Everybody hires illegals, so it's okay.
8. W/O Rubbishcan, the earth will open up and swallow Postville, IA, because its economy will implode ("it's a mitzvah to provide jobs" is a variant).
9. W/O Rubbishcan, no one will be able to find/afford kosher meat, and they'll have to eat treif.
10. Mr. Rubbishcan is a nice guy who gives a lot of tzedakah.
11. Everyone on this blog is a militant vegan.
12. Everyone on this blog is Gay.
13. Everyone on this blog is liberal.
14. It was like that when I got here (oops, that's Bart Simpson's excuse).
15. Its all a plot by the union. They brought in 16 year-old girls to work at the plant and be raped.
16. The Mashgichim are all innocent. They would never beat a worker with the back of a meat hook.
17. The workers are not human-they do not have souls-The Tanya confirms this.
18. A meat hook is not really a meat hook.
19. My comments are merely common sense.
20. You guys are mean, with your overheated rhetoric.

Thanks to all who have contributed. I have just noticed 2 more that have been used more than once, and I suspect will become part of the Rubbishcan repitoire. (19 & 20).

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie writes: Baruch Lanner is hanging around the kosher Dunkin Donuts in Elizabeth, NJ, to befriend children.

I guess Baruch was a pioneer in using kosher meat to be mekarav people; especially "chickens." Maybe he can work at Rubbishcan.

[David]

"In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct."

Really? That's interesting, because in such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews will leap to the defense of a person who has committed an appalling chilul Hashem and wilfully broken law after law merely because that person is a Jew. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard. Or, at least to some standard.

[steve]

According to Rabbi Yudel Shain, Seth Mandel (Doktor Rabbiner as he refers to him) years ago wanted the OU to pull the plug on Rubashkin. His was the lone voice so the OU hieracrchy told him in so many words that either he toes the company line, or he gets fired. Now the OU uses him as their spinmeister to defend Rubashkin. Rav Yudel made mince meat out of him when Mandel made a surprise visit to his blog in trying to explain away the OU cholov akum cover up.

[steve]

Let's see, we have Norman Greenbaum, David N. Friedman, Sholom Ash, what other creative names can Lubinsky think of for his trolls?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: How about Moishe Pipik?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sholom Asch (Yiddish: שלום אש), also written Shalom Asch (November 1, 1880, Kutno - July 10, 1957, London) was a Polish-born American novelist, dramatist, and essayist in the Yiddish language.

Asch was born in Kutno, Poland, of Jewish heritage. He was one of ten children of a cattle-dealer and innkeeper, and received a traditional Jewish education; as a young man he followed that with a more liberal education obtained at Wloclawek, where he supported himself as a letter writer for the illiterate Jewish townspeople. From there he moved to Warsaw, where he met and married Mathilde Shapiro, the daughter of the Polish-Jewish writer, M.M. Shapiro. Influenced by the haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment), initially Asch wrote in Hebrew, but I.L. Peretz convinced him to switch to Yiddish.

He traveled to Palestine in 1908 and the U.S. in 1910. He sat out World War I in the U.S. where he became a naturalized citizen in 1920. He returned to Poland. He later moved to France, visited Palestine again in 1936, and settled in the U.S. in 1938.

His Kiddush ha-Shem (1919) is one of the earliest historical novels in modern Yiddish literature, about the antisemitic Chmielnicki Uprising in mid-17th century Ukraine and Poland. When his 1907 drama God of Vengeance — which is set in a brothel and whose plot features a lesbian relationship — was performed on Broadway in 1923, the entire cast was arrested and successfully prosecuted on obscenity charges, despite the fact that the play was enough of a standard in Europe that it had already been translated into German, Russian, Polish, Hebrew, Italian, Czech and Norwegian. His 1929–31 trilogy Farn Mabul (Before the Flood, translated as Three Cities) describes early 20th century Jewish life in St. Petersburg, Warsaw, and Moscow. His Bayrn Opgrunt (1937, translated as The Precipice) is set in Germany during the hyperinflation of the 1920s. Dos Gezang fun Tol (The Song of the Valley) is about the halutzim (Jewish-Zionist pioneers in Palestine), and reflects his 1936 visit to that region.

A celebrated writer in his own lifetime, a 12-volume set of his collected works were published in the early 1920s, and in 1932 he was awarded the Polish Republic's Polonia Restituta decoration and was elected honorary president of the Yiddish PEN Club. However, he was later to offend Jewish sensibilities with his 1939–1949 trilogy The Nazarene, The Apostle, and Mary, which dealt with New Testament subjects. The Forward, New York's leading Yiddish-language newspaper, not only dropped him as a writer, but also openly attacked him for promoting Christianity.

Asch spent most of his last years in Bat Yam near Tel Aviv, Israel (although he died in London). His house in Bat Yam is now the Sholem Asch Museum. The bulk of his library, containing rare Yiddish books and manuscripts, including the manuscripts of some of his own works, is at Yale University.

[steve]

Great, first they dig up one hit wonders from the 60's, now they're digging up authors that have been dead for over fifty years. Maybe Elvis will be coming around here soon.

[Archie Bunker]

Steve,

I believe it was Rabbi Avraham Gordimer of the OU who popped up on Yudel's blog - not Seth Mandel.

It was Seth Mandel who wrote the poison pen letter to Professor Levine badmouthing Rabbi Yudel Shain however.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: Notice how Asch wrote plays about Jesus, Greenbaum writes a song about him, and now Mandel cites him as a prooftext. I guess if you accept one dead messiah, you might as well welcome them all.

[state of the Jews]

It is my understanding that Dr. Gradin has changed her position regarding the Weinberg Pen and that she now considers its use to be humane.
Having wintessed its use I must say that I did not see an animal suffer and when the animal was turned out on the slaughter house floor it was quite dead - but one caveat.
The shechita must be done properly and thoroughly. That means cutting the throat of the animal close to the metal bars that are on either side of the animals head. If the bars are hit, the knife may become damaged, so there is great reluctance on the part of the shochet to work that close. That could lead to incomplete shichita.
What happens to the meat from such an animal?
Kashrut is all about trust. The meat from an incompleted shected animal that suffers should be considered treif. Given the both the depth and breadth of problems that have existed at Agri over such a long period of time one has to question the honesty and integrity of the owners. Simply put, a great many kosher consumers have lost confidence in the company, and the cosmetic changes that have been proposed by the OU and the company only serve to further undermine that confidence.

To David Friedman:
When the Conservative Movement did its investigation of Agri in 2006, Shalom Rubashkin complained that the CM was only looking at his establishment and they should look at others as well, like Empire.
The CM took him up on that challenge and went to Mifflintown, PA to examine conditions there. While the number of injuries from slips and falls was high in both plants, the number of severe injuries (amputations, stab wounds, etc)at Empire were signifcantly lower.
Salaries at Empire w healthcare were high, $9/hr on average with $6-7/hr for healthcare or a total of $16+/per hour. At Agri the average was $7.50/hr with NO benefits.
At Empire there was a safety committee made up primarily of workers and one senior management person. At Agri the safety committee was made up entirely of supervisors and managers and no input from workers (it became a place where managers would discuss worker performance and who they were going to fire).
At Empire there was signage in English, Spanish and Korean. At Agri, sinage was entirely in English.
At Empire they had a fulltime nurse on duty 8 hrs a day who was on call 24/7 (a former trauma nurse at that). At Agri they didn't even have an infirmary and injuries were addressed by the laundry workers.
At Empire workers have a union and a grievance procedure where people trained in representing workers can guarantee a fair hearing by the company. Agri, manages by intimidation. There is no grievance procedure. If workers don't like they way they are treated, they'll fire you or threaten to call ICE.
Much of this was written up in reports in 2006 - some of which became public while others were kept private but which I was privilaged to see.
Bottom line, one company operated according to derech eretz and respected its employees, while the other treated its employees like shmutz.
But comparisons are not always fair.
Empire only does poultry, while AGri does both beef and poultry in the same plant. A bit ambitious.
What Agri needs to do is be the best it can be in the treatment of its workers, animals, the environment and the consumer. It has failed in all areas. The past is prologue and I have no confidence that the hubris of the owners will change.
The best course of action for the workers is to form a union to gain some form of stability and self-protection. The best course of action for the human treatment of animals would be stepped-up monitoring by the USDA.
And, the best course of action for the kosher consumer would be for the Rubashkins to sell the plant and all of their holdings in Postville to someone with the knowledge and expertise to run the operation. Until that happens the kosher consumer can have no confidence that products coming out of the plant are both kosher and meet the highest ethical standards.

[steve]

Archie,

They both did. First Mandel and then Gordimer. Rav Yudel wiped the floor with both of them.

[Joel]

"but consumers must vote with their wallet. Most consumers will not pay a premium for free-range, natural or organic beef, no matter how much lip service they pay to the idea"

I dont care about organic and crap, just dont hack a cow to death for me. BTW I have given up meat (for a long time now) after reading Fast Food Nation.

[state of the Jews]

A Response to Rav Mandel:

“Agri does produce a large share of the glatt kosher beef sold in the US (although I would not rely much on the percentages reported in the newspapers).

Absolutely true. No one has ever offered a shred of evidence regarding the size of Agri’s share in the kosher meat or poultry market.

“Kosher workers do not pry into the lives of gentile workers, nor do they go into the isolated warehouses which are the only possible places to produce illicit materials.”

Wrong. Although it has not been proven, it is possible that drugs were manufactured in the plant. Meat and poultry processing plants use large quantities of chemicals which are mixed inside the plant. Neither mashgiachim, shochtim or US government inspectors are present during third shift when the plant is cleaned. These officials come in first thing in the morning and “inspect” for cleanliness at that time. As improbable as it may seem it is conceivable that illicit drugs were manufactured in the plant mixing room. No one would notice if one or two extra people were working away for hours in the mixing room while the cleaning crew was working elsewhere in the plant.

“So they (mashgichim and shochtim) do not know about allegations of sexual abuse, methamphetamine labs, beatings, and other allegations.”

and,

“There are no beatings or sexual mistreatment of workers or drug facilities in the operating areas of the plant.”

Wrong. I know of at least three instances where a “rabbi” beat a worker or demanded a worker lie to protect a Rabbi. One of those instances was documented in the ICE affidavit. A number of the sexual encounters took place in the operating areas of the plant – specifically in the offices of the supervisors during daytime operations!

” There are also no workers that look underage. I go all over the plant when I visit, and the mashgichim that work for the OU also do, but only into areas where meat is processed.”

Perhaps one tip off might have been that some of the boys weren’t shaving yet! It begs credulity to think that you didn’t recognize Bar Mitzvah aged children just because they weren’t Jewish or were wearing a smock. One has to assume out of kindness, that the thought never entered your head that children might be working there which is why you weren’t looking. You know Rabbi Mandel, any bouncer at any bar can recognize an underage kid with bad credentials trying to get in. The “everyone had good credentials” defense holds about as much water as the “everyone else does it” defense.

“ We do not visit the water treatment plant, nor the sheds where some materials are stored, nor houses where gentile workers live.”

Perhaps if you cared, you would have tried to meet workers on neutral territory, outside of the plant like in, G-d forbid, a Church – someplace workers would feel safe to openly express what was going on there. Any idiot could walk around that plant and feel and see the fear in the workers. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see it. I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but I also believe you have to dig beneath the surface to get to the truth. Ronald Reagan used to say, “make peace but verify.” The OU fell down when it did not take steps to verify what was being said about Agri. I grew up in the wholseale food business and when we suspected there were a group of workers stealing from the company we hired a private investigator to send in a "mole" (sound familiar). It didn't take him long discover the culprits and we stopped it cold. You could have dealt with this quietly but forcefully. There was no need for this scandal to erupt publicly. What I, and many others, would be much more impressed with, is if the OU admitted its mistake, removed its haschacha (if for no other reason then to protect its "brand") so we could all move on.

“In any large plants, some workers have complaints. I have been to other companies where the conditions appear to be worse, and to others where the conditions are better. Many workers who have complaints eventually leave the company they work for or are fired, and then they spread allegations to whomever is willing to listen. Some allegations of ex-employees prove to be true, others prove to be false.”

Agreed.

“In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct.”

I find it repugnant that the OU willfully ignores evidence when it is presented. You cannot argue that Agri didn’t knowingly hired underage kids. Eighteen were picked up during the ICE raid, only a fraction of those who actually worked there. By turning a blind eye to the human tragedy that was taking place at Agri, the OU has contributed to the enormous harm done to the image of the Jewish community and to kashrus observance. The fact that more than a month after the raid this is still a major topic of discussion in synagogues across the country is a tribute to the collusion and hubris exhibited by Agri and the OU.

“According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews.”

We are also required to confront those that do harm:
I will act as a relentless accuser against those who cheat laborers of their hire.
(Malachi 3:5)

“ All the more so if the facts have not yet been established.”

See the issue of children mentioned above.

”The government has not yet indicted any plant manager, let alone any of the Rubashkin family; reportedly they are still sifting through the evidence. The only thing beyond the arrests of workers that has happened is that a guidance counselor in Postville who has worked with immigrants for years has been summoned to appear before a grand jury.”

Between six and eight subpoenas were delivered to the executive offices of Agri approximately four weeks ago. It has been reported that one supervisor has fled the country.

“We have certified Rubashkin for years, and I can assure you there are no kashrus problems at Postville more than occasional mistakes that happen anywhere, and when mistakes do happen, they are corrected.”

Being reactive is not good enough. The OU needs to be proactive. Calling Agri's business decisions a "mistake" is an insult to the readers of this blog. A mistake is something that happens in error. Agri's actions were the result of cold, calaulating decision making. Quite simply put: greed.
Rabbis like Moshe Feinstein in effect found ways to rule non-union produce treif and did so again with cage-raised veal. They did so out of concern for the suffering and exploitation of workers and animals. At Agri, the OU seems to go out of its way to do the opposite – koshering abuses of all sorts as long as the slating, soaking and deveining is done correctly.

“There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.”

I suggest you talk to ICE.

“The fact that the UFCWI (the union that is trying to unionize Agri) is putting ads in Jewish newspapers featuring all the allegations, rumors and innuendos that anyone has made does not constitute a heter for Jews to follow suit.”

Magicians call this "mis-direction" get the audience to look at something else while you pull the wool over their eyes. Blaming unions for the OU's failure to safeguard the ethics of kashrut shows a lack of respect for kosher consumers.

As Pogo said, "We have meet the enemy and he is us."

At a minimum, these allegations, Federal and State charges, fines and regulatory judgments against Agri are cause for the kosher consumer to act with extreme caution. That means that Jews are well within their halachic rights to share the information made public about Agri and to choose to avoid eating Agri products until Agri is sold to someone within whom the kosher consumer can again have confidence.

[yudel]

SHOW ME THE BEEF...

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

With this e-mail from Rabbi Mandel, I stand corrected. Any differences between his stated position here and what Rabbi Samuels claimed is basically hairsplitting. One more lie and he will have a chazakah for chronic lying.

At least no one can accuse me of failing to judge dan l'kaf z'chut. I gave Rabbi Mandel the benefit of the doubt until he implicated himself. Let it not be said that Rubashkin's critics are failing to be deliberative in judgement.

It is now clear that the OU's principal motive is to keep the kosher meat $$$ gravy train going at all costs. This is why Rabbi Mandel argues in favor of low ethical standards and cheap meat. If Jews decided en masse to cut their meat consumption or, kal va-chomer, go entirely vegetarian, and eat more foods that do not require supervision to be reliably kosher (e.g. fresh produce), the OU would lose certification fees. Meat is much more complicated, kashrut-wise, than, say, canned chick peas, and one would assume that the certifying agencies take a bigger cut.

I wonder what percentage of OU Kosher revenues are from meat certification in general, and what portion of that is from AgriProcessors. It would be an interesting statistic.

[David N. Friedman]

Today's efforts to understand this issue give me more reason to support Agri and the Rubaskhin family. However, I could easily change my mind given more facts.

For what it is worth--here are a few conclusions:

1) The OU has performed fine and has a specific mandate. Correctly, they leave it to Federal inspectors and other governmental agencies to deal with matters other than kashrut.
2) One must have grave suspicions concerning the malevolent efforts to unionize this business. If there are problems with Agri--truly, nothing could change with or without unionization. Consider the following:
""Over the past couple of years the employees of Agriprocessors, Inc. in Iowa have resisted attempts by the United Food and Commercial Workers Union (UFCW) to become their collective bargaining agent."

In a telephone interview Wednesday night, Rubashkin said, "The workers are quite happy and have not signed any papers to unionize. That’s the whole point."

He also maintained that OSHA was in the process of revising its list of violations against his company. But his call was received too late to get confirmation from that government agency.

Meanwhile, the union’s Frotman maintained that Agriprocessors has more health and safety violations than any other food production plant, kosher or not, in the United States. Unionizing, he said, would lead to a reduction in those violations and create a safer work environment. UFCW has no intention of halting its campaign, he added.""

Resp. So HOW could the mere act of unionizing lead to a reduction in violations? Huh? It seems that violations (in large or small measure) are not real but a product of politics. This is a scandal.
3) I did a quick look at Empire, a place that has been unionized, and they have a huge problem with the government and OSHA over variety of issues. Many are technical and it remains to be seen how much of the case against Agri is substantial vs. merely technical.
4) Regarding state of the Jews response--let me try to consider some of the points of contrast offered between Empire and Agri. He also says improvement will come with unionization. This kind of allegation needs to come with at least a bit of argument or evidence. It is crystal clear that the public and the employees are also harmed by unionization. Therefore, it is credible that the workers do not want the union. Unions bring many problems for workers and consumers so it needs to be understood that the good outweighs the bad. If one can overlook Empire's activity with a Union, pro-union consumers can surely overlook Agri's non-union (all other matters being equal)if fair is fair and America is still America. Let me check--is Obama declared king yet? No. Then we still have freedom of choice. The point that Empire workers make $9/hour on average while those at Agri make 7.50/hour on average has no meaning since labor prices vary by locale. A safety committee, English only signs--no special significance. A failure to offer any medical treatment on the job is an allegation that needs to be shown by the facts.
5) a tzedek hecksher is a joke.
6) Illegal alien workers are a real issue. If Agri hires illegals with full knowledge that they are illegal--this is meaningful. And yet we live in a country that fails to stop illegal workers and fails to systematically punish companies that hire them. Is this selective enforcement and is Agri being specifically targeted? This is a fair question but I would be quick to admit that if there is a substantial illegal problem--they need to get rid of those workers quickly to keep my business.

[estye]

Be forced to eat treif? How about a vegetable.

[shmuel]

State of the Jews,
Thank you, from all of us. Yours is the last word here. QED. Nothing more need be said. Next post.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

So Rabbi Mandel, the OU, Chabad, et. al are so worried about lashon ha-ra about AgriProcessors. What about all of the lashon ha-ra against Rabbi Ralbag and Triangle-K? We are told that Triangle-K is not reliable, but no one ever gives any hard evidence as to exactly why it is not a reliable hechsher. We are told that it is OK to say this because the lashon ha-ra is to'elet, for a constructive purpose. If it is constructive to warn people not to accept the kashrut of food under a certain certification when there is a lack of conclusive evidence as to why the hashgacha is unreliable, then why is it not to'elet to warn consumers of the lack of yashrut of a company when the evidence is quite clear? Or is kashrut more important than yashrut?

And why should we not judge Triangle-K, and all of the other ostensibly non-reliable agencies dan l'kaf z'chut, kosher until proven otherwise, to take Rabbi Mandel's reasoning to its logical conclusion?

[reader]

Wow, Ariel sokolovski sure knows his new testament.

[Thank you very much.]

Great, first they dig up one hit wonders from the 60's, now they're digging up authors that have been dead for over fifty years. Maybe Elvis will be coming around here soon.

Well, there is the debated issue as to whether or not Elvis's maternal grandmother was Jewish. So, he very well could pop up sometime.

TCB indeed.

[Thank you very much.]

Steve: Notice how Asch wrote plays about Jesus, Greenbaum writes a song about him, and now Mandel cites him as a prooftext. I guess if you accept one dead messiah, you might as well welcome them all.

And Elvis sang a lot of songs about Jesus.

Oh, yes - possible Jewish grandmother, singing about Jesus . . . Elvis is bound to pop in here sometime.

[steve]

At the OU and at Rubashkin, all it's about is TCB.

[Yochanan Lavie]

“According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews.” (Excuse #1 from my list).

The torah also says: "hokeach tokeach amitecha." (Thou shalt rebuke thy [wrongdoing] people).

Stephen Mendelson writes: "I wonder what percentage of OU Kosher revenues are from meat certification in general, and what portion of that is from AgriProcessors. It would be an interesting statistic."

I heard that KAJ's main beef (pun intended) with Agri-vation was not their kashrut, but KAJ's fee. Is that true?

Also, I heard that the problems with triangle-K have been remedied a long time ago. If Agri-vation fixes their problems (with, or w/o a union) I would trust them again. But they are too arrogant to admit they have problems, let alone fix them.

Mr. Friedman says that Tzedek Hescher is a joke, w/o substantiating his claim. I reply that it's a good idea, whether from Conservative or Orthodox is immaterial. I am not a flaming liberal, but Tanach says we should care about workers and even animals.

[Bloke from Australia]

shmarya, have you seen this? http://www.theage.com.au/national/leaving-the-fold-20080623-2vlh.html?page=-1
i know the family, nice people, the kids are great the father is very strict

[Yochanan Lavie]

Oh, yes - possible Jewish grandmother, singing about Jesus . . . Elvis is bound to pop in here sometime.

Elvis has entered the building: (Singing about Rubbishcan):

You ain't nothin' but a trief dog
lyin' all the time.
You aint nothin' but a trief dog
kvetchin' all the time.
Well, you ain't never caught a rabbi
And you exploit kids & say it's all fine.

When they said you was kosher,
Well, that was just a lie.
Well, you said it's loshon harah,
So that you can deny.
If you ever caught a rabbit
You would sell it as kosher, oh my!

"Todah Rabbah, very much!"
Elvis has left the bldg (along with the mashgiach).

[Shmarya]

shmarya, have you seen this? http://www.theage.com.au/national/leaving-the-fold-20080623-2vlh.html?page=-1
i know the family, nice people, the kids are great the father is very strict

I had not seen it. Thanks!

The article says half of this Chabad family's 15 children are no longer observant Jews. That's quite a heavy rate of attrition.

[Zalman Alpert]

The good rabbi forgets that Rubashkin Meats is foremost a business seeking to make profit. Its not a non profit.

According to the rabbi's reasoning he should be seeking to endorse or at least verify the kashrus quality of HEBREW National , because it not Rubashkin is the brand of kosher meat products travellers, or Jews in remote places are likely to encounter. Yet the OU continues its policy of subtly implying that Hebrew national is not kosher.
I also find it interesting to note that the OU is not willing to discuss the practice of Rubashkin selling his plant to non Jews on the Sabbath and keeping the production line open for work. Is this in line with the strictest interpretation of Hilchoth Shabbath ?

[Bloke from aussie]

i dont think that is correct. i know some members and they are all relgious besides this one (that i know) i think the parents where very strct.) have you done research in how many people have lost the derech at chabad. australia has it more than any place in the world, not just from lubavitch but all the sects inclding satmar and ger and will not even discuss mizrachi, the swinging community as we call it

[John K. Diamond]

"I also find it interesting to note that the OU is not willing to discuss the practice of Rubashkin selling his plant to non Jews on the Sabbath and keeping the production line open for work. Is this in line with the strictest interpretation of Hilchoth Shabbath?"

WOW !!!!!

Thank you Zalman, for this shocking piece of news, but could you provide us with unimpeachable sources for this.

[Shmarya]

They clean the plant, do maintenance and some shipping, I think, on Shabbos – no shechita or other things Jews are involved in.

[Shmarya]

have you done research in how many people have lost the derech at chabad. australia has it more than any place in the world, not just from lubavitch but all the sects inclding satmar and ger

If you have details, please send them to me.

[bloke from aussie]

do not have real numbers but the numbers are stagering! they are so high, everyone knows this and their is no denying this. its fact. how is it in the US?

[John K. Diamond]

But would any other Kosher establishment that permitted non-Jews to do cleaning, maintenance and shipping on Shabbos on its premises lose its certification?

[Shmarya]

do not have real numbers but the numbers are stagering! they are so high, everyone knows this and their is no denying this. its fact. how is it in the US?

About the same, I'd guess.

[Shmarya]

But would any other Kosher establishment that permitted non-Jews to do cleaning, maintenance and shipping on Shabbos on its premises lose its certification?

No.

If the establishment is co-owned by a non-Jew, even only on paper, and the employees working are non-Jews.

[David N. Friedman]

A tzedek hecksher can be considered a joke since any private Jewish business that delivers a product or a service over a period of time and serves a public need can already be declared, by the fact of its existence, a righteous enterprise.

Conforming to kosher standards tells us that the animals do not suffer. Compliance with Federal law tells us all is above board.

It is offensive that there is a presumption that a private business that fills a public need requires some kind of certification that it is honorable. This is an offense to all Jewish business people. By contrast, most of what the government does is immoral because of a bureaucratic system that gives unelected people carte blanche to do as they please outside of the natural check and balance of the marketplace. Governmental enterprise is suspect on its face, demeans the people, wastes money and has become increasingly autocratic.

Interesting, no response regarding why unionization will help the situation.

[John K. Diamond]

It's absolutely amazing that Mr. Friedman, after being very respectfully asked, is still unwilling to do some basic fundamental learning to understand the real truth and continues to waste his time posting his rubbish on this blog.

[Shmarya]

Conforming to kosher standards tells us that the animals do not suffer. Compliance with Federal law tells us all is above board.

Please.

See this for "kosher standards" and "compliance with federal law".

A tzedek hecksher can be considered a joke since any private Jewish business that delivers a product or a service over a period of time and serves a public need can already be declared, by the fact of its existence, a righteous enterprise.

What about the conversion mills? They were private Jewish businesses, operated for a time, and served a public need - they weren't declared righteous enterprises.

It is offensive that there is a presumption that a private business that fills a public need requires some kind of certification that it is honorable.

I know. Requiring the Bet Dins to be scrutinized and subjected to all sorts of standards to be "reconized" and certified truly was and is very offensive.

By contrast, most of what the government does is immoral because of a bureaucratic system that gives unelected people carte blanche to do as they please outside of the natural check and balance of the marketplace.

So . . . you are willing to give Jewish business carte blanche to do as they please without anyone inspecting them, because you think that they are leading "righteous enterprises" and are somehow trustable.

BUT, if we give the government carte blanche to investigate these tzadikim of business, the government will become immoral.

Where is the line drawn?

Would you eat food from an establishment (factory, restaurant, etc.) that had no health and sanitation inspection? Those government investigators have "carte blanche" in that area, too.

If you think that health and sanitation inspections are okay to conduct, then why not worker safety, kashrut, etc.?

[Carol Ann Varley]

Yochanan makes a reference to the king of rock and roll and Ariel makes a reference to the King. I love it!

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'm glad you enjoyed my parody, Carol Ann.

[Catherine]

I find this interesting that on a Jewish website to be hearing about the teachings of Jesus!
so much to learn in this life.
To my heres my opinion based on Torah and tanak.
I dont put too much thought in what Jesus said, but rather the Torah what God said, although im sure he had his day and stuggle 2 thousand years ago as well. who really knows the whole truth perhaps its not all wrtten in our sages and the so called new testament, but im sure one day we will, the important thing is NOW
WHats happening now??
you see the hypocracy today, and the lies going on in Gods house?
thats what we see today.
And its so simple yet so hard for some of Gods chosen to do, "Sorry seems to be the hardest word" sorry i had to quote this, but
Hashem said if a unrighteous person repents and does what is right and good, he will surely live!
SO if one repents, they change there course
then Hashem forgives them and they will have a place in the life to come
simple, for some to do, not for others
God only knows why!!
I pray that all Jews repent
then Moshaic will come
Just one singel day!!
Love and blessings
Catherine

[Rob Zimmerman]

How can we trust anyone anymore based on all of this information and misinformation? Agri says this, Shmarya, JTA and Forward say that, and all of the bloggers say other ridiculous things.

The raid on Agriprocessors has become more of a witch hunt, and even more of a game of broken telephone. This whole debate is lashon hora, because no one has printed bona fide facts, it's all hearsay.

The blog editor here claims to know the truth, the PR guys claim to know the truth, and the pseudo experts here claim to know the truth.

The truth is that some of what is claimed against the meat processors are true and need to be fixed, while a lot of it is rumor designed to besmirch the movement Chabad and organized orthodox so-called "organizations".

This fight, and it is a fight, is not one that ought to be fought by a food maker/distributor, but between the rabbis, religions, streams and the consumers to see whether an idea of a hechser tzedek warranted, but more so, is even doable. Where are lines drawn, who makes the rules, is a "little bit" illegal, the same as a little bit pregnant, is immoral, my morals, your morals, Avi Weiss' or Morris Allan's, Avi Shafran's?

Asking for a hechser tzedek is a big deal, because once you declare it and firm it up, can Avi Weiss still eat at the Rivedale Pizza shop if the guy who sweeps or flips the dough is illegal? Can Morris Allan's synagogue be considered treif because the janitor's wife is illegal (not saying that any of this is the case)? Can I buy my tzitit at the Judaica store where a Mexican is crushing boxes in the back?

Shmarya says its a 70%/20% in another post here. he says its not about Federally illegal, but more of a moral code. So if shmarya says one guys's use of illegals is good because he pays them better wages, doe sthat rise to the level of Avi Weiss' level of Uri LTzedek - which asks for U.S. legal guidelines?

The questions here are not meant to be sarcastic, but will certainly be answered that way. They will get torn apart and mocked, my motives will be too, all in an attempt to deflect the true questions here. Can tzedek work, who will be the enforcers, and is the use of this company as the posterchild for non tzedek - the rumors, gossip and destruction of people's lives, livelihoods and reputations - contrary to the whole point of tzedek in the first place?

Or, to paraphrase a famous Kohen, "do the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few?" Do we continue to be counter to tzdek, using these people until they are destroyed for the purpose of building a greater call for Tzedek?

Tear away people...

[steve]

Rob Zimmerman? I was wrong, I thought it would be Elvis. Instead we got BOB DYLAN. Welcome aboard.

[steve]

Hey Dylan,

Don't pick on the Riverdale pizza store. They make the best pizza in NY and the guy behind the counter is Jewish and is legal. I even asked him. LOL!

YL, waiting for your "Gotta Serve Somebody" or "Blowin in the Wind" parody. Your pick.

[John K. Diamond]

Mr. Zimmerman, or whatever your real name is:

Here is where you can read the Truth:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp

The Truth is not ridiculous.

[Rob Zimmerman]

And here I thought I was anonymous. My son Jakob loves Rubashkin's top rib. At least we know it's not made from "All the Tired Horses" that some kosher butchers had been accused of using.

God Knows what goes on in the Heartland, but when the Hurricane hit and blew in the Idiot Wind, and you couldn't even Walk Out In the Rain because it was coming down like Buckets of Rain, Agri asked "What Can I Do For You," and sent in relief.

It's just a World Gone Wrong.

[steve]

Don't waste your time with these trolls John. Hey Lubinsky, keep sending in the clowns. This entertainment is priceless!

[Michael]

Rabbi Mandel states: "If an individual Jew has a problem with the way any Jew runs his business, he has the right to take his business elsewhere."

That is what I will be doing. I find it reprehensible that Jews would be going out of their way to cover for Agri at this time. At minimum, the circumstantial evidence is fairly strong that the company has been acting in an illegal and immoral manner. Although it will be up to the government to decide whether or not to a) press charges b)convict or c) close the plant down, we as consumers have a responsibility to take it upon ourselves to make decisions based upon our own morality and values IRRESPECTIVE of whether or not the owner of the company is Jewish. A Ganaf is a Ganaf, pure and simple. Hiring illegal aliens makes you a ganaf, especially if you are attempting to pay less taxes as a result of this type of hiring. As someone who pays his fair share of employment taxes. Saying that "well everyone does it so it's ok" is not an acceptable defense. Those who keep silent or try and hide this fact are, in my opinion, actually guilty of obstruction of justice.

I work in a non-unionized shop and disagree with USCJ's recommendation to give preference to unionized shops. Nevertheless, a smart employer would treat his employees and product properly, as it is cheaper to do this in the long run. Agri is a private company, and as such, does not have to open itself up to outside oversight. However, consumers can make inferences based their actions to make their own decisions.

It is also untrue that consumers have to rely on Agri or for that matter the OU for meat. If anything, Agri's practices based upon its overwhelming market share is proof that monopolies and oligopolies are bad for the market. I'm fortunate enough to live in the DC area where I can receive meat which is shechted by Star-K and kashered by Capitol-K. I have issues with the DC Vaad-they are extraordinarily protectionist, but they are not nearly on this level. In fact this product is grown, shechted and kashered within an hour of my house. While there is a premium to be paid for this assurance, I am willing to make sacrifices in other parts of my budget to ensure incur the additional cost.
One of the great things about the market is that enough people get fed up with the status quo, things will change. There are other companies who produce kosher meat, and I'm sure they will be more than happy to fill the void. As consumers, we have a responsibility to ensure that what we purchase and eat befits our safety, religous and moral standards. With all due respect to the USDA and OU, they are unable and/or unwilling to step up to the challenge. Therefore, consumers must take up the slack.

[steve]

Jakob loves Rubashkin's top rib

No wonder he has 6th Avenue heartache.

[Jonathan Livingston Seagull]

Rob Zimmerman? I was wrong, I thought it would be Elvis. Instead we got BOB DYLAN. Welcome aboard.

Yet another Jew who sang about Jesus, too. Is there, perhaps, really a subtle theme here?

I'm counting the hours until Neil Diamond shows up - he is, after all, the Jewish Elvis. (And he did a Christmas album - so the Jewish guy sings about Jesus quota still applies.)

[Catherine]

Why are there Jews that are stuborn and dont see the truth?
are these evil ones?
I wonder??

Do they choose to be evil to mislead many or what?

Not all Jews are equall i can see that!

I dont think all will see the light only some, remember

at Sinai upon decending from the mountain with the Law!! and seeing the people making a Golden calf?
Moses said "Who is with God come to me!"

The whole Levi tribe went to Moses who represented Gods side, and those who did'nt died!

At the making and worshiping and probably eating of the "God" "Golden calf"

same thing today.

some will not be with God, some will still eat the "calf" reasoning

with there own reasoning and understanding they will lie, steal, cheat, kill, what ever it takes to satisfy there lustfull desire and craving for flesh.

Some responses prove this today

Prayer not sacrifecs is what God wants

I pray for these ones who are blinded and decieved because

there is no peace with these ones no peace.

They dont pursue peace only there selfish craving and desires for flesh,

at all costs, the lives of innocent children starving, global warming

rainforest being cut down, the ruing of this earth.

Sometimes i think why bother speaking but there could be one person that reads this posts, and responses, and they will see the light and the truth.

you never know, Only God knows he is the ultimate Judge.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Here is the medley Steve requested:

You may be a mashgiach in Postville or Nebraska,
You may harass the shiksa, you might like to ask her,
You may be the biggest hashgacha agency in the nation,
You may be a meat packer with a long string of violations

But you're gonna have to serve some fleishigs, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve some fleishigs,
Well, it may be some flanken or it may be rib steak
But you're gonna have to serve some fleishigs.

How many laws must a man violate
Before you call him a crook?
Yes, 'n' how many illegals does it take to run a plant
Before they through at them "the book"?
Yes, 'n' how many times must Rubbishcan lie,
Before they're forever banned?
The Rubbishcans, my friend, are blowhards in the wind,
The Rubbishcans are blowhards in the wind.

Is he that rich, he has a pair!
We are all here on the blog,
Rubbishcan's over there.
He sends in the trolls.

Is this the brit, does God approve?
One who keeps standards low
Monopolizes our food
Where are the trolls?

Send in the trolls
the rubbishcan trolls,
Don't bother, they're here.

(Steve: Don't waste your time with these trolls John. Hey Lubinsky, keep sending in the clowns. This entertainment is priceless!)

JL Seagull: A Neil Diamond parody will be coming in the near future. Any suggestions?

[steve]

YL,

You should sell your parodies to Lipa, especially "Rebbe in the Sky". It will be a huge hit among chabadniks.

Neil Diamond, how about "Coming to America"?
If that's too easy, then "I Am I Said" by Aaron Rubashkin: "Postville's mine but it ain't home, New York's home, but it ain't mine-yet".

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

But would any other Kosher establishment that permitted non-Jews to do cleaning, maintenance and shipping on Shabbos on its premises lose its certification?

It happened in Chicagoland. A business called Bagel Country opened on Shabbos when it started up. They had to get a hechsher from Detroit but most observant people wouldn't eat from there. Once they stopped opening on Shabbos, the CRC certified them.

[Jonathan Livingston Seagull]

JL Seagull: A Neil Diamond parody will be coming in the near future. Any suggestions?

For some reason, "Cherry, Cherry" is the first one that comes to mind.

"Sooliman" can be redone as Rubbishcan . . . and the "God of my want/need . . . " kind of lines are ripe for something.

"I am, I said," "Cracklin Rose," "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show," wow, he has so many great songs, I'm just throwing out the ones that come to mind so I'm probably missing some really good ones.

I keep coming back to "Cherry, Cherry," but that might just be because I now have the song going through my head.

You're the parody master, so . . . whatever you'd like to work with.

P.S. - I can't wait for this one!

[Catherine]

just a question for you all
Not that im self righteous, but
something doesnt sit right with me
to make or mock a wrong doer.
Its like, making jokes about a Gay person, knowing how Hashem feels about these sort of things.
its the kind of sence of humor that doesnt seem appropriate, or proper.
Sorry for speaking my peace here, but someone has too.
thats just my thoughts.
I know i did it once but, i felt bad after wards. You either, want people to change repent and pray for them or you just dont care about them and make fun of them and basically have no hope that people can change.
If you make fun of your brother
that only will make him mad.
So here i go again, Love is the answer.
Oh who was that that wrote that song.
a very talented Jew? yes it was.
Love is the answer. YOu give love you get love the more you give the more you will feel.
If you dish out the opposite what do you expect back, a Bowl of Cherries?
No! anyways instead of condemming why not try something differnt like, mercy?
Praying for these people, who knows, maybe they will change? so thats my 2 cents worth for all its worth...
I dont care if you make fun of me, if that pleases you go right ahead, just shows what in your heart.
Love and blessings..
C
thanks for the great articles all the time SHAM!!Keep in touch!

[steve]

Catherine,

I pray that these people get out of the meat business and stop this ridiculous charade. They need to stop this childish PR campaign where they keep inventing responses to the almost daily new charges that come up. They have been doing this for years and now they have stepped up the campaign with these bots showing up on the blogs. They need to learn what repentance means and own up to the crimes that were committed- all the crimes.

[Yerucham Stone]

The truth will set you free:

Guys, tachlis. All of you with itchy keyboards, take a look.

Agri’s OSHA Record!

The claim made that there are $182,000 worth of safety violation fines in 2007 is false. In fact, only $29,750 for 14 safety violations with no repeat violations cited.

As for some of the others:

AgriProcessors has a human resource department where abuse and harassment and sexual complaints could be filed.
Unfortunately, there was; but just one such complaint was filed in about twenty years at AgriProcessors.
The human resource department investigated the complaint with the appropriate authorities.
The police did not find reason to file any charges
AgriProcessors never had a charge for sexual abuse brought against it in any court or governmental establishment
To say that their internal department dismissed the claim does not move me, whereas the fact that the local authorities who investigated the claim did - does.

Also, you should note that:

AgriProcessors has a government approved HACCP plan in force.
AgriProcessors has the USDA staff on site full time - monitoring safety.

So, unless the police, the local government, OSHA, USDA and everyone else is on the take, this is a series of unfortunate events that do not add up to the evil. More like a big company that does nasty work with blood, bones, sinew, flesh, knives and hooks that is so big is has some accidents, staffing issues, and harassment issues, but nothing is out of the ordinary for a workforce, small society or manufacturing plant.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

Iowa is a State Plan state. The Feds only go in rarely, for special cases.http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2008/05/30/news/iowa/99b68ed2711c44ac86257459000f5b54.txt

State occupational safety regulators have reduced fines against Agriprocessors Inc. for numerous safety and health violations.

The Iowa Division of Labor Services fined the Postville company $182,000 in March for 39 violations of work place safety rules.

After company officials agreed to correct violations on Tuesday, the fines were reduced to $42,750, said Kerry Koonce, a spokeswoman for Iowa Workforce Development, which includes the Labor Services Division.

[Shmarya]

AgriProcessors has the USDA staff on site full time - monitoring safety.

Moron. The USDA does NOT monitor worker safety. It monitors compliance with animal handling and processing, and does that very poorly due to budget cuts and other problems.

[Shmarya]

AgriProcessors has a human resource department where abuse and harassment and sexual complaints could be filed.
Unfortunately, there was; but just one such complaint was filed in about twenty years at AgriProcessors.
The human resource department investigated the complaint with the appropriate authorities.
The police did not find reason to file any charges
AgriProcessors never had a charge for sexual abuse brought against it in any court or governmental establishment
To say that their internal department dismissed the claim does not move me, whereas the fact that the local authorities who investigated the claim did - does.The claims made against Agriprocessors regarding extortion and sexual harassment go back into the mid-1990s. Stephen Bloom reported on the issue in his book Postville.

What has now happened is that the US DOJ ICE and other agencies have new, current information on the same behavior, and witnesses ready to testify against supervisors who did
the abuse.

Are you really the best 5W can do?

[Yerucham Stone]

"What has now happened is that the US DOJ ICE and other agencies have new, current information on the same behavior, and witnesses ready to testify against supervisors who did the abuse."

Perhaps, but now you're either speculating or offering insight of something that hasn't happened yet.

While you can presume to know who I might be, I am sure where you're coming from - and that is a long, long history with Rubashkin, Chabad and even traditional religion that appears to cut deeper than mere facts and your claim of public service, but in fact, to a more personal perspective and what is evident to be a clear motive of anger and possible vengeance.

So, call a spade and spade and move on. As long as we know where the animus comes from the playing field is leveled.

[Shmarya]

Perhaps, but now you're either speculating or offering insight of something that hasn't happened yet.

Not at all.

We have workers and former workers who claim this extortion, abuse and sexual abuse going back more than 10 years.

These are workers who do not know each other, do not speak the same language and who never were in Postville together.

As for who you are, I think that is very clear.

[steve]

5W stands for Woeful, Wretched, Wicked, Wrongheaded Windbags.

[Shmarya]

While you can presume to know who I might be, I am sure where you're coming from - and that is a long, long history with Rubashkin, Chabad and even traditional religion that appears to cut deeper than mere facts and your claim of public service, but in fact, to a more personal perspective and what is evident to be a clear motive of anger and possible vengeance.

Let's see:

Your "facts" brought in defense of Agri are wrong.

You repeat 5W talking points.

You tried to pass yourself off as an Orthodox Jew who approached this issue without bias.

As for me:

I don't masquerade as a Chabadnik.

I don't masquerade as a haredi.

I don't masquerade as a Modern or Centrist Orthodox Jew.

Looks like you are firmly within the bias and dishonesty arena.

[steve]

I hope Garnel can forgive me for posting his comment from Cross Currents, but it's just too good to pass up:

I could imagine Rav Shafran working as the PR guy aboard the Titanic and sending off a little missive right after that fateful moment. Without a doubt, he would have explained that icebergs are, of course, made of ice which comes from water and everyone knows that water can’t break the skin of the Titanic! Besides, the boat is still afloat so those who are prematurely screaming out on the deck about it sinking are clearly overreacting. Maybe if there was some evidence other than the boat listing high on one side we could conclude that the ship was in trouble but surely you wouldn’t want to derive anything from such limited evidence. Now if you’ll excuse him, he has some deck chairs to go rearrange.

Comment by Garnel Ironheart — June 20, 2008 @ 9:26 am

[5W]

Hi Shmarya

I must inform your readers of an inaccuracy here.

You write to the poster above, "You repeat 5W talking points.", yet there are no such talking points anywhere.

Thank you