Head Of OU Shechita Uses Lanner Excuse: Rubashkin Is The Chabad "Kiruv" Of Kosher Meat, No Worse Than Other Meat Plants – Criticism Of Rubashkin Is Lashon Hara

Well, either all other meat plants hire 13 year olds to illegally work chicken lines; recruit and hire illegal aliens and then provide them with forged ID; extort and abuse those same illegal workers; and engage in unfair and illegal business practices; or Rabbi Seth Mandel is…

…lying again.

As you read the following email* from Mandel posted by Ben Harris of the JTA, ask yourself one question: Can you trust this man to supervise your kosher meat?

I don't think so:

Date: Mon, 26 May 2008
From: “Mandel, Seth” <mandels@ou.org>
Subject: My response to the Agri issue

There is no question that much of what is said is loshon hora and r’chilus, because there are not that many people who know what actually goes on in meat plants in general and in this one in particular.

My relationship with Agriprocessors (the name of the Rubashkin meat company, which I shall abbreviate as Agri) is a professional one, and I consider it a good one. As with all companies that I supervise (and indeed, almost all companies that the OU supervises), we occasionally have differences, and then we have to make clear to the company that they must change certain practices to conform with OU standards or policies. Most kashrus professionals will tell you that the relationships with Gentiles is usually easier than with Jews, and that holds with meat companies as well. But Agri is by no means worse than most other Jewish companies.

Almost nothing in this world is all black or all white. Although Agri makes mistakes, one is obliged also to take into account the good that Agri does, which is often eclipsed by the latest newspaper articles.
Agri does produce a large share of the glatt kosher beef sold in the US (although I would not rely much on the percentages reported in the newspapers). This is because Agri has made it its business to produce kosher meat at relatively inexpensive prices and make it available throughout the United States. In many places in the US, Agri meat is the only glatt kosher meat available, and it is available in such places because Agri has made it its business to market and ship beef to any supermarket or store that has any interest. There is absolutely no question that there are many Jews who are eating kosher meat today only due to Agri. These are the Jews that would just as soon buy kosher meat, and are willing to pay some premium for it, but will not buy poor quality beef or will not travel long distances to get it. In a sense, just as Lubavitch nowadays generally speaking is in the business of kiruv, Agri is in the business of kiruv as far as meat goes. It aims to make decent quality glatt meat available everywhere it can at a decent price, and has been very successful in doing so.

I can tell you that Agri does not try to cut corners as far as kashrus goes, but does go as far as its rabbinic certification say it can. Most companies do the same. As far as I see, this is generally true of other facets of its business: Agri goes as far as other companies in the business go. Agri is no worse than other large meat packers. One can argue that a Jewish business owner should not be just as good as other comparable businesses, but better. That is a valid argument, but better practices entail higher costs. As I have said many times when I am questioned about more humane treatment of animals, cattle growers and meat packers today would be very happy to institute higher humane standards, but consumers must vote with their wallet. Most consumers will not pay a premium for free-range, natural or organic beef, no matter how much lip service they pay to the idea. The same thing holds true regarding employees and their working conditions. Meat packers would no problem with paying higher wages and make working conditions better — IF the consumers would pay the premium price thereby entailed.

The law makers in this country have created an impossible situation. They do not allow temporary workers in, knowing full well that much of the agricultural market and the meat market depend on such workers. If the workers cannot get here legally, they come illegally. The fact of the matter is that all large meat packers employ mostly immigrants, because almost no native-born Americans are willing to work in a meat plant for the low pay that makes inexpensive meat possible. Since it is impossible for the Mexicans and Guatamalans to come legally to work, they come illegally. So there are illegal immigrants at almost every large meat packer in the US.

If the government just wanted to arrest illegal immigrants, it could go to any large meat packer. But the government knows that as many illegal immigrants as it arrests and sends home, more will come, unless there is a legal worker program instituted. So it targets companies where it has reason to believe that management is involved in the knowingly hiring illegal aliens or in helping them get fraudulent documentation. Some people made allegations that Agri was involved in this, and so the government has been planning a raid on them for months. The search warrants make it clear that the government was looking for evidence to support this.

Is it true? I do not know, and venture to say that none of the shochatim and mashgichim in the plant know either. Although most shochatim and mashgichim gossip, they do not associate much with the gentile workers except during work, and even then contact is mostly on the work floor, since the kashrus workers have separate lunch rooms and break facilities. So they do not know about allegations of sexual abuse, methamphetamine labs, beatings, and other allegations. Kosher workers do not pry into the lives of gentile workers, nor do they go into the isolated warehouses which are the only possible places to produce illicit materials. There are no beatings or sexual mistreatment of workers or drug facilities in the operating areas of the plant. There are also no workers that look underage. I go all over the plant when I visit, and the mashgichim that work for the OU also do, but only into areas where meat is processed. We do not visit the water treatment plant, nor the sheds where some materials are stored, nor houses where gentile workers live. We also do not act as OSHA inspectors, interviewing workers to hear their complaints.

In any large plants, some workers have complaints. I have been to other companies where the conditions appear to be worse, and to others where the conditions are better. Many workers who have complaints eventually leave the company they work for or are fired, and then they spread allegations
to whomever is willing to listen. Some allegations of ex-employees prove
to be true, others prove to be false.

In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct. According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews. All the more so if the facts have not yet been established. The government has not yet indicted any plant manager, let alone any of the Rubashkin family; reportedly they are still sifting through the evidence. The only thing beyond the arrests of workers that has happened is that a guidance counselor in Postville who has worked with immigrants for years has been summoned to appear before a grand jury. He has not been arrested nor has any proof been given that he was involved in illegal activities, and in any event he is not an employee of Agri.

The position of the OU is that we require owners of meat businesses to be shomrei mitzvos and also abide by the law. The OU is following the actions and findings of the federal authorities and will act accordingly; we take violations of law very seriously. But the OU certainly does not assume a person guilty because of allegations, nor is any Jew allowed to. We have certified Rubashkin for years, and I can assure you there are no kashrus problems at Postville more than occasional mistakes that happen anywhere, and when mistakes do happen, they are corrected.

If an individual Jew has a problem with the way any Jew runs his business, he has the right to take his business elsewhere. But a Jew has no right to call for a boycott of another Jew without proof that he is doing something wrong. There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.

I fully understand that people wish that there would be no more scandals involving Agri. I wish so as well (and Agri does, too). But as another Jew once said (OK, one who believed that he was the moshiach), only those clean from sin should throw stones at others. The fact that the UFCWI (the union that is trying to unionize Agri) is putting ads in Jewish newspapers featuring all the allegations, rumors and innuendos that anyone has made does not constitute a heter for Jews to follow suit.

Seth Mandel

So Rubashkin knowingly recruits and hires an illegal workforce, paying them far below what Empire and other pay. He uses that unfair advantage (along with copious amounts of other shady practices) to undersell his kosher competition and drive them out of market after market.

Rubashkin's workers are exploited and abused, treated like dirt, made to work forced unpaid overtime and shifts as long as 17 hours.

This allows Rubashkin to sell kosher meat "cheaply" in Peoria, and this is what Seth Mandel calls "kiruv" (religious outreach).

This is the OU's Baruch Lanner problem all over again – every abuse is justified as long as the kiruv is good.

The OU is rotten to its core.

* Mandel told the JTA this is not the full version of the email and the this version is misleading. But he refused to be more specific or supply a "complete" version. Mandel also claimed the email was supposed to be "private," as if that would in any way let him off the hook for writing it.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'm suing him for not acknowledging my list:

7. Everybody hires illegals, so it's okay.

9. W/O Rubbishcan, no one will be able to find/afford kosher meat, and they'll have to eat treif.

[John K. Diamond]

So the OU is still lying about Agri, as they have done consistently since December, 2004.

Please see the URL below:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp

It's time that a class action Federal lawsuit against the OU be considered, for passing off treif meat as Kosher in interstate commerce for who knows how many decades.

[shmuel]

It's about time an orthodox rabbi quotes Jesus correctly and gives him attribution, though it would have been even nicer had he offered the chapter and verse of the particular gospel. Rabbis in this country quote Jesus all the time, completely unaware that Jesus was actually the source of their quote ("Do as they say, don't do as they do" is a big favorite, unaware that he was dissing the rabbis of his day with that thought).
I am absolutely speechless. This is the head of kashrus of the OU, and he's (knowingly) quoting Jesus. I give up.

[ABribeBlindsTheEyesOfTheWise]

When my wife argued that we should stop accepting the OU because of their reaction to the Lanner incident(*), I told her she was crazy. The OU would treat kashrut seriously because kashrut, unlike children, was important. As usual, she was right and I was wrong.

(*) Her exact quote: "How can we trust them with our food if we can't trust them with our children?"

[Carol Ann Varley]

In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus denounces kashrut. To paraphrase: nothing which goes into the stomach defiles the soul, it is our thoughts that defile the soul. According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

[Yochanan Lavie]

According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

Posted by: Carol Ann Varley | June 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM

According to the OU, all food produced by bearded Jews is kosher.

[steve]

According to the OU, all food whose licensing fees have been paid for is kosher.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.ws]

B"H
I like his letter, very common sense.

[John K. Diamond]

With all due respect, Reb Ari, Mandel's email is nothing but a bunch of half-truths and outright lies.

Visit:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

to get the whole truth.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

nice to see that the ou is now on the side of the corporatists

so when will the ou start recruiting guest workers to cut down on the costs of their high priced secretaries and support staff

i am glad that i stopped supporting this organization during the lanner crisis

they havent changed their ways...they are corrupt and care only about one thing...the bottom line

eff em

[uncle joe mccarthy]

Carol

it was not jesus that changed the laws of kashrut, it was paul, who had a dream that jesus came to him and told him ham sandwiches were cool

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.ws]

B"H
Dear Carol An
You write:

In the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Jesus denounces kashrut. To paraphrase: nothing which goes into the stomach defiles the soul, it is our thoughts that defile the soul. According to Jesus, ALL food is kosher.

Posted by: Carol Ann Varley | June 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM

It seems You misunderstand what he meant to say and or take it out of the full context of his teachings.
1st of all he wasn't talking about kashrus which is a Torah commandment but washing of hands which is tradition,:

NT Mathew 15-Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
….
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Talmud.

2nd in another chapter of Mathew he is quoted as saying that whoever disregards even the smallest mitzvah (devine commandment) from the Torah and teaches that to others shall be the least one in the kingdom of heaven.
he said :

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So when you or anyone else who proclaims his alegience to the teachings of J. but disregards kosher and the Shabat etc. you can't quote him as your source because he never preached that.
He preached increased emphasis on ethics in a society that was (in his view) more devoted to obeying ritual laws and customs than the spirit of the Torah yet he had no power to nullify mitzvot (commandments)and he taught his deciples to listen to the Perushim (Pharisies) in everything:
Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;

[uncle joe mccarthy]

btw,

there is no concept in the torah of he who is without sin may cast the first stone...this would be an impossibility and would mean no one could ever give tochacha or sit on a court of law.

if this letter is truly from rav mandel, he should be removed from his post as an apikoros

and as an apikoros, he is chayav meesa and i would be happy to toss him off the cliff and dump a huge boulder on him

Uncle Joe: Why is Mandel an apikorus? The Rubbishcans also believe in a dead messiah, and they have OU approval!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sorry, the above post is mine.

[Archie Bunker]

For once I have to agree with John K. Diamond:

"It's time that a class action Federal lawsuit against the OU be considered, for passing off treif meat as Kosher in interstate commerce for who knows how many decades."

[moshe]

So the OU, the shochtim and mashgichim don't look beyond themselves and see nothing wrong. Can we conclude then that kosher supervision and slaughter at Agri is done by monkeys who see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.

Nevermind the fact that 12 agencies of the Federal Gov't investigated Rubbishcan for 6 months. Right, it was all for no reason. The OU has FAR more resources and capabilities than the U.S. Govt.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

But as another Jew once said

LOL! How desperate do you have to be to use Jesus to support your argument. Methinks the "rabbi" needs to learn more Torah and put down his NT.

[Archie Bunker]

Incidentally, Vicky Polin reports this week on her Jewish Survivors blog that Baruch Lanner is hanging around the kosher Dunkin Donuts in Elizabeth, NJ, to befriend children. She urges anyone witnessing it to call 911.

[David N. Friedman]

I have read Seth Mandel's e-mail and I have broad agreement with his point of view. From what I have read--yes, I would trust this man to supervise a situation.

He did not give his permission to publish it--I find that fact disturbing.

I have read as much as I can regarding this entire issue and it appears there is much prejudice against the Potsville facility. People like to believe that if there is smoke there is fire and this might be the case but I agree with Seth Mandel's point that especially as Jews, we need to see what facts are actually in evidence.

As a Jewish businessman, I would never hire an illegal. However, I say this with a small business of less than 10 employees. Can I be sure of what I might do if I had hundreds of employees and directly responsible with only the Jewish ones? In an industry such as meat packing or construction, having hundreds of people--it is very tough to warrant zero illegals. The fact they are illegal is more damning than what they are paid.

I think it is legitimate to consider if there is a contrast between Empire and Agri and if Empire can do it the right way, so can Agri. I trust Seth Mandel might have a point concerning the standards in any situation and I am surely willing to give a basically honest business a chance to remedy any defects that become known to them.

More facts are necessary in order to condemn this business. If I did not have the option, I will continue to buy Agri products.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

mr friedman,

we arent talking 1 or 2 illegals, but 300

300

let that sink into your head a bit

and why is the ou and rav mandel, the org in charge of overseeing the kashrut of the facility, working as a pr arm for agri??

there is something very wrong here, and this shows that the ou, by its very nature is not independent of many of the facilities it oversees

i dont know what kind of biz you run, but i am sure that if someone gets bad product, they wont be over averas

well, that isnt the case with agri

[steve]

David, the issues with Agri did not start with the May 12 raid. There have been several other serious issues such as health violations, safety violations, animal cruelty and kashrus issues. There was a report put out by the USDA that was over 500 pages that detailed the health and safety issues. Agri had more violations than all the other slaughterhouses combined. There was a U.S. Congressional hearing that dealt with these violations. All of these issues point to one thing, the lack of honesty and integrity in how the Rubashkins conduct their business. When there is a lack of trust, then one cannot rest assured that the food is kosher. Just recently the KAJ pulled their hashgacha because they cannot supervise them "according to their standards". Rubashkin lied with their press release stating that it was their decision, not the KAJ's, to remove the supervision. Once again, lack of integrity and honesty.

[Y. Aharon]

I remember Rabbi Seth Mandel's writing before he became the overall supervisor at the OU for shechitah. I considered him to be the star contributor to the Avodah discussion list which also featured other distinguished and knowledgeable writers. He is highly knowledgeable in various areas besides halacha - especially, linguistics. The quality of his writing is also evident in the cited post.

However, I can't support his stance on the Postville issue. Aside from the question of labor practices that will be addressed by the legal system, there is the question of the shechitah process and general health and safety issues in that plant. Certainly, the shechitah process falls under the responsibility of the certifying agencies, including the OU. Dr. Temple Grandin has stated that the upside-down pen used in the Postville shechitah terrifies the animals and results in a slower lapse into unconsciousness. There is also a question of the shochet having adequate access to the animals throat to do a proper shechitah. These are halachic questions on the shechitah. At best, it seems to me, they can be justified after the fact (bidi'eved). After the fact, however, is not the standard we would expect from something labeled "Glatt". Why, therefore, does the OU permit this practice? The fact that the "mehadrin standard" in Israel apparently requires such shechitah, does not make it right. The OU posek on meat products at the OU is Rav Belsky, and he considers upside-down shechitah to be an unwarranted novel interpretation of an halachic statement in the Shulchan Aruch (Shach).

Y. Aharon

[Yochanan Lavie]

David Friedman: Next time, just post the number from my list of standard Rubbishcan excuses. We've heard them so many times before that I have numbered them.

[David N. Friedman]

Please stop the heated rhetoric regarding my common sense posting. I have little at stake in defending Rubuskhin--I simply want to find the facts first before condemnation.

I have observed that this company has its share of defenders such as Seth Mandel and these people have witnessed the company first hand, know the scene and decline to make such an indictment. I am simply an outside observer without any knowledge of the facts but willing to give a legitimate business a fair hearing.

If there are USDA violations--we need to know what they are instead of simply citing the fact that there are alleged violations since a technical violation of USDA standards may or may not be meaningful. Further, I would like to know if these violations are of a quality far different than industry norms.

From what I have read, there are people who will never eat their product again. Yet, I believe that it is fair to say that a complete story has yet to emerge and this is why it makes sense to wait and see.

[Shmarya]

f there are USDA violations--we need to know what they are instead of simply citing the fact that there are alleged violations since a technical violation of USDA standards may or may not be meaningful. Further, I would like to know if these violations are of a quality far different than industry norms.

So, let me get this straight.

1. You did no research, not even simple research like searching this site.

2. You choose to believe Seth Mandel – who is nogeia b'davar (has a conflict of interest, to say the least), rather than believe other testimony.

Why not start learning?

[John K. Diamond]

Another thing you can do, Mr. Friedman, per Shmarya's request that you learn, is to read all the official letters between PETA, Rubashkin, OU, KAJ, Nathan Lewin, etc. in the public domain concerning the first AgriProcessors Shechitah Scandal at:

[http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/letters.asp]

This will give you a very detailed background to understand what's going on now and how the OU has consistently lied about this ongoing issue.

[Paul Freedman]

Ariel, imo you continue to surpirse and delight..

[Yochanan Lavie]

1. It's loshon hara/we should dan l'chaf zchut.
2. It is against Daas Torah to question rabbis.
3. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
4. Shmarya just wanted to bag a Rubbishcan babe; it's a vendetta.
5. It's a vast gov't conspiracy.
6. It's anti-Semitism/self-hating Jews
7. Everybody hires illegals, so it's okay.
8. W/O Rubbishcan, the earth will open up and swallow Postville, IA, because its economy will implode ("it's a mitzvah to provide jobs" is a variant).
9. W/O Rubbishcan, no one will be able to find/afford kosher meat, and they'll have to eat treif.
10. Mr. Rubbishcan is a nice guy who gives a lot of tzedakah.
11. Everyone on this blog is a militant vegan.
12. Everyone on this blog is Gay.
13. Everyone on this blog is liberal.
14. It was like that when I got here (oops, that's Bart Simpson's excuse).
15. Its all a plot by the union. They brought in 16 year-old girls to work at the plant and be raped.
16. The Mashgichim are all innocent. They would never beat a worker with the back of a meat hook.
17. The workers are not human-they do not have souls-The Tanya confirms this.
18. A meat hook is not really a meat hook.
19. My comments are merely common sense.
20. You guys are mean, with your overheated rhetoric.

Thanks to all who have contributed. I have just noticed 2 more that have been used more than once, and I suspect will become part of the Rubbishcan repitoire. (19 & 20).

[Yochanan Lavie]

Archie writes: Baruch Lanner is hanging around the kosher Dunkin Donuts in Elizabeth, NJ, to befriend children.

I guess Baruch was a pioneer in using kosher meat to be mekarav people; especially "chickens." Maybe he can work at Rubbishcan.

[David]

"In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct."

Really? That's interesting, because in such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews will leap to the defense of a person who has committed an appalling chilul Hashem and wilfully broken law after law merely because that person is a Jew. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard. Or, at least to some standard.

[steve]

According to Rabbi Yudel Shain, Seth Mandel (Doktor Rabbiner as he refers to him) years ago wanted the OU to pull the plug on Rubashkin. His was the lone voice so the OU hieracrchy told him in so many words that either he toes the company line, or he gets fired. Now the OU uses him as their spinmeister to defend Rubashkin. Rav Yudel made mince meat out of him when Mandel made a surprise visit to his blog in trying to explain away the OU cholov akum cover up.

[steve]

Let's see, we have Norman Greenbaum, David N. Friedman, Sholom Ash, what other creative names can Lubinsky think of for his trolls?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: How about Moishe Pipik?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Sholom Asch (Yiddish: שלום אש), also written Shalom Asch (November 1, 1880, Kutno - July 10, 1957, London) was a Polish-born American novelist, dramatist, and essayist in the Yiddish language.

Asch was born in Kutno, Poland, of Jewish heritage. He was one of ten children of a cattle-dealer and innkeeper, and received a traditional Jewish education; as a young man he followed that with a more liberal education obtained at Wloclawek, where he supported himself as a letter writer for the illiterate Jewish townspeople. From there he moved to Warsaw, where he met and married Mathilde Shapiro, the daughter of the Polish-Jewish writer, M.M. Shapiro. Influenced by the haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment), initially Asch wrote in Hebrew, but I.L. Peretz convinced him to switch to Yiddish.

He traveled to Palestine in 1908 and the U.S. in 1910. He sat out World War I in the U.S. where he became a naturalized citizen in 1920. He returned to Poland. He later moved to France, visited Palestine again in 1936, and settled in the U.S. in 1938.

His Kiddush ha-Shem (1919) is one of the earliest historical novels in modern Yiddish literature, about the antisemitic Chmielnicki Uprising in mid-17th century Ukraine and Poland. When his 1907 drama God of Vengeance — which is set in a brothel and whose plot features a lesbian relationship — was performed on Broadway in 1923, the entire cast was arrested and successfully prosecuted on obscenity charges, despite the fact that the play was enough of a standard in Europe that it had already been translated into German, Russian, Polish, Hebrew, Italian, Czech and Norwegian. His 1929–31 trilogy Farn Mabul (Before the Flood, translated as Three Cities) describes early 20th century Jewish life in St. Petersburg, Warsaw, and Moscow. His Bayrn Opgrunt (1937, translated as The Precipice) is set in Germany during the hyperinflation of the 1920s. Dos Gezang fun Tol (The Song of the Valley) is about the halutzim (Jewish-Zionist pioneers in Palestine), and reflects his 1936 visit to that region.

A celebrated writer in his own lifetime, a 12-volume set of his collected works were published in the early 1920s, and in 1932 he was awarded the Polish Republic's Polonia Restituta decoration and was elected honorary president of the Yiddish PEN Club. However, he was later to offend Jewish sensibilities with his 1939–1949 trilogy The Nazarene, The Apostle, and Mary, which dealt with New Testament subjects. The Forward, New York's leading Yiddish-language newspaper, not only dropped him as a writer, but also openly attacked him for promoting Christianity.

Asch spent most of his last years in Bat Yam near Tel Aviv, Israel (although he died in London). His house in Bat Yam is now the Sholem Asch Museum. The bulk of his library, containing rare Yiddish books and manuscripts, including the manuscripts of some of his own works, is at Yale University.

[steve]

Great, first they dig up one hit wonders from the 60's, now they're digging up authors that have been dead for over fifty years. Maybe Elvis will be coming around here soon.

[Archie Bunker]

Steve,

I believe it was Rabbi Avraham Gordimer of the OU who popped up on Yudel's blog - not Seth Mandel.

It was Seth Mandel who wrote the poison pen letter to Professor Levine badmouthing Rabbi Yudel Shain however.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: Notice how Asch wrote plays about Jesus, Greenbaum writes a song about him, and now Mandel cites him as a prooftext. I guess if you accept one dead messiah, you might as well welcome them all.

[state of the Jews]

It is my understanding that Dr. Gradin has changed her position regarding the Weinberg Pen and that she now considers its use to be humane.
Having wintessed its use I must say that I did not see an animal suffer and when the animal was turned out on the slaughter house floor it was quite dead - but one caveat.
The shechita must be done properly and thoroughly. That means cutting the throat of the animal close to the metal bars that are on either side of the animals head. If the bars are hit, the knife may become damaged, so there is great reluctance on the part of the shochet to work that close. That could lead to incomplete shichita.
What happens to the meat from such an animal?
Kashrut is all about trust. The meat from an incompleted shected animal that suffers should be considered treif. Given the both the depth and breadth of problems that have existed at Agri over such a long period of time one has to question the honesty and integrity of the owners. Simply put, a great many kosher consumers have lost confidence in the company, and the cosmetic changes that have been proposed by the OU and the company only serve to further undermine that confidence.

To David Friedman:
When the Conservative Movement did its investigation of Agri in 2006, Shalom Rubashkin complained that the CM was only looking at his establishment and they should look at others as well, like Empire.
The CM took him up on that challenge and went to Mifflintown, PA to examine conditions there. While the number of injuries from slips and falls was high in both plants, the number of severe injuries (amputations, stab wounds, etc)at Empire were signifcantly lower.
Salaries at Empire w healthcare were high, $9/hr on average with $6-7/hr for healthcare or a total of $16+/per hour. At Agri the average was $7.50/hr with NO benefits.
At Empire there was a safety committee made up primarily of workers and one senior management person. At Agri the safety committee was made up entirely of supervisors and managers and no input from workers (it became a place where managers would discuss worker performance and who they were going to fire).
At Empire there was signage in English, Spanish and Korean. At Agri, sinage was entirely in English.
At Empire they had a fulltime nurse on duty 8 hrs a day who was on call 24/7 (a former trauma nurse at that). At Agri they didn't even have an infirmary and injuries were addressed by the laundry workers.
At Empire workers have a union and a grievance procedure where people trained in representing workers can guarantee a fair hearing by the company. Agri, manages by intimidation. There is no grievance procedure. If workers don't like they way they are treated, they'll fire you or threaten to call ICE.
Much of this was written up in reports in 2006 - some of which became public while others were kept private but which I was privilaged to see.
Bottom line, one company operated according to derech eretz and respected its employees, while the other treated its employees like shmutz.
But comparisons are not always fair.
Empire only does poultry, while AGri does both beef and poultry in the same plant. A bit ambitious.
What Agri needs to do is be the best it can be in the treatment of its workers, animals, the environment and the consumer. It has failed in all areas. The past is prologue and I have no confidence that the hubris of the owners will change.
The best course of action for the workers is to form a union to gain some form of stability and self-protection. The best course of action for the human treatment of animals would be stepped-up monitoring by the USDA.
And, the best course of action for the kosher consumer would be for the Rubashkins to sell the plant and all of their holdings in Postville to someone with the knowledge and expertise to run the operation. Until that happens the kosher consumer can have no confidence that products coming out of the plant are both kosher and meet the highest ethical standards.

[steve]

Archie,

They both did. First Mandel and then Gordimer. Rav Yudel wiped the floor with both of them.

[Joel]

"but consumers must vote with their wallet. Most consumers will not pay a premium for free-range, natural or organic beef, no matter how much lip service they pay to the idea"

I dont care about organic and crap, just dont hack a cow to death for me. BTW I have given up meat (for a long time now) after reading Fast Food Nation.

[state of the Jews]

A Response to Rav Mandel:

“Agri does produce a large share of the glatt kosher beef sold in the US (although I would not rely much on the percentages reported in the newspapers).

Absolutely true. No one has ever offered a shred of evidence regarding the size of Agri’s share in the kosher meat or poultry market.

“Kosher workers do not pry into the lives of gentile workers, nor do they go into the isolated warehouses which are the only possible places to produce illicit materials.”

Wrong. Although it has not been proven, it is possible that drugs were manufactured in the plant. Meat and poultry processing plants use large quantities of chemicals which are mixed inside the plant. Neither mashgiachim, shochtim or US government inspectors are present during third shift when the plant is cleaned. These officials come in first thing in the morning and “inspect” for cleanliness at that time. As improbable as it may seem it is conceivable that illicit drugs were manufactured in the plant mixing room. No one would notice if one or two extra people were working away for hours in the mixing room while the cleaning crew was working elsewhere in the plant.

“So they (mashgichim and shochtim) do not know about allegations of sexual abuse, methamphetamine labs, beatings, and other allegations.”

and,

“There are no beatings or sexual mistreatment of workers or drug facilities in the operating areas of the plant.”

Wrong. I know of at least three instances where a “rabbi” beat a worker or demanded a worker lie to protect a Rabbi. One of those instances was documented in the ICE affidavit. A number of the sexual encounters took place in the operating areas of the plant – specifically in the offices of the supervisors during daytime operations!

” There are also no workers that look underage. I go all over the plant when I visit, and the mashgichim that work for the OU also do, but only into areas where meat is processed.”

Perhaps one tip off might have been that some of the boys weren’t shaving yet! It begs credulity to think that you didn’t recognize Bar Mitzvah aged children just because they weren’t Jewish or were wearing a smock. One has to assume out of kindness, that the thought never entered your head that children might be working there which is why you weren’t looking. You know Rabbi Mandel, any bouncer at any bar can recognize an underage kid with bad credentials trying to get in. The “everyone had good credentials” defense holds about as much water as the “everyone else does it” defense.

“ We do not visit the water treatment plant, nor the sheds where some materials are stored, nor houses where gentile workers live.”

Perhaps if you cared, you would have tried to meet workers on neutral territory, outside of the plant like in, G-d forbid, a Church – someplace workers would feel safe to openly express what was going on there. Any idiot could walk around that plant and feel and see the fear in the workers. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see it. I believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but I also believe you have to dig beneath the surface to get to the truth. Ronald Reagan used to say, “make peace but verify.” The OU fell down when it did not take steps to verify what was being said about Agri. I grew up in the wholseale food business and when we suspected there were a group of workers stealing from the company we hired a private investigator to send in a "mole" (sound familiar). It didn't take him long discover the culprits and we stopped it cold. You could have dealt with this quietly but forcefully. There was no need for this scandal to erupt publicly. What I, and many others, would be much more impressed with, is if the OU admitted its mistake, removed its haschacha (if for no other reason then to protect its "brand") so we could all move on.

“In any large plants, some workers have complaints. I have been to other companies where the conditions appear to be worse, and to others where the conditions are better. Many workers who have complaints eventually leave the company they work for or are fired, and then they spread allegations to whomever is willing to listen. Some allegations of ex-employees prove to be true, others prove to be false.”

Agreed.

“In such situations, I find it repugnant that Jews automatically assume that allegations are correct.”

I find it repugnant that the OU willfully ignores evidence when it is presented. You cannot argue that Agri didn’t knowingly hired underage kids. Eighteen were picked up during the ICE raid, only a fraction of those who actually worked there. By turning a blind eye to the human tragedy that was taking place at Agri, the OU has contributed to the enormous harm done to the image of the Jewish community and to kashrus observance. The fact that more than a month after the raid this is still a major topic of discussion in synagogues across the country is a tribute to the collusion and hubris exhibited by Agri and the OU.

“According to the G’moro, even in cases where we know the facts of the matter, Jews are obliged to be dan l’khaf z’khus a fellow Jews.”

We are also required to confront those that do harm:
I will act as a relentless accuser against those who cheat laborers of their hire.
(Malachi 3:5)

“ All the more so if the facts have not yet been established.”

See the issue of children mentioned above.

”The government has not yet indicted any plant manager, let alone any of the Rubashkin family; reportedly they are still sifting through the evidence. The only thing beyond the arrests of workers that has happened is that a guidance counselor in Postville who has worked with immigrants for years has been summoned to appear before a grand jury.”

Between six and eight subpoenas were delivered to the executive offices of Agri approximately four weeks ago. It has been reported that one supervisor has fled the country.

“We have certified Rubashkin for years, and I can assure you there are no kashrus problems at Postville more than occasional mistakes that happen anywhere, and when mistakes do happen, they are corrected.”

Being reactive is not good enough. The OU needs to be proactive. Calling Agri's business decisions a "mistake" is an insult to the readers of this blog. A mistake is something that happens in error. Agri's actions were the result of cold, calaulating decision making. Quite simply put: greed.
Rabbis like Moshe Feinstein in effect found ways to rule non-union produce treif and did so again with cage-raised veal. They did so out of concern for the suffering and exploitation of workers and animals. At Agri, the OU seems to go out of its way to do the opposite – koshering abuses of all sorts as long as the slating, soaking and deveining is done correctly.

“There is no such proof at Agri, and there have been no reports yet that anyone has such proof.”

I suggest you talk to ICE.

“The fact that the UFCWI (the union that is trying to unionize Agri) is putting ads in Jewish newspapers featuring all the allegations, rumors and innuendos that anyone has made does not constitute a heter for Jews to follow suit.”

Magicians call this "mis-direction" get the audience to look at something else while you pull the wool over their eyes. Blaming unions for the OU's failure to safeguard the ethics of kashrut shows a lack of respect for kosher consumers.

As Pogo said, "We have meet the enemy and he is us."

At a minimum, these allegations, Federal and State charges, fines and regulatory judgments against Agri are cause for the kosher consumer to act with extreme caution. That means that Jews are well within their halachic rights to share the information made public about Agri and to choose to avoid eating Agri products until Agri is sold to someone within whom the kosher consumer can again have confidence.

[yudel]

SHOW ME THE BEEF...

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

With this e-mail from Rabbi Mandel, I stand corrected. Any differences between his stated position here and what Rabbi Samuels claimed is basically hairsplitting. One more lie and he will have a chazakah for chronic lying.

At least no one can accuse me of failing to judge dan l'kaf z'chut. I gave Rabbi Mandel the benefit of the doubt until he implicated himself. Let it not be said that Rubashkin's critics are failing to be deliberative in judgement.

It is now clear that the OU's principal motive is to keep the kosher meat $$$ gravy train going at all costs. This is why Rabbi Mandel argues in favor of low ethical standards and cheap meat. If Jews decided en masse to cut their meat consumption or, kal va-chomer, go entirely vegetarian, and eat more foods that do not require supervision to be reliably kosher (e.g. fresh produce), the OU would lose certification fees. Meat is much more complicated, kashrut-wise, than, say, canned chick peas, and one would assume that the certifying agencies take a bigger cut.

I wonder what percentage of OU Kosher revenues are from meat certification in general, and what portion of that is from AgriProcessors. It would be an interesting statistic.

[David N. Friedman]

Today's efforts to understand this issue give me more reason to support Agri and the Rubaskhin family. However, I could easily change my mind given more facts.

For what it is worth--here are a few conclusions:

1) The OU has performed fine and has a specific mandate. Correctly, they leave it to Federal inspectors and other governmental agencies to deal with matters other than kashrut.
2) One must have grave suspicions concerning the malevolent efforts to unionize this business. If there are problems with Agri--truly, nothing could change with or without unionization. Consider the following:
""Over the past couple of years the employees of Agriprocessors, Inc. in Iowa have resisted attempts by the United Food and Commercial Workers Union (UFCW) to become their collective bargaining agent."

In a telephone interview Wednesday night, Rubashkin said, "The workers are quite happy and have not signed any papers to unionize. That’s the whole point."

He also maintained that OSHA was in the process of revising its list of violations against his company. But his call was received too late to get confirmation from that government agency.

Meanwhile, the union’s Frotman maintained that Agriprocessors has more health and safety violations than any other food production plant, kosher or not, in the United States. Unionizing, he said, would lead to a reduction in those violations and create a safer work environment. UFCW has no intention of halting its campaign, he added.""

Resp. So HOW could the mere act of unionizing lead to a reduction in violations? Huh? It seems that violations (in large or small measure) are not real but a product of politics. This is a scandal.
3) I did a quick look at Empire, a place that has been unionized, and they have a huge problem with the government and OSHA over variety of issues. Many are technical and it remains to be seen how much of the case against Agri is substantial vs. merely technical.
4) Regarding state of the Jews response--let me try to consider some of the points of contrast offered between Empire and Agri. He also says improvement will come with unionization. This kind of allegation needs to come with at least a bit of argument or evidence. It is crystal clear that the public and the employees are also harmed by unionization. Therefore, it is credible that the workers do not want the union. Unions bring many problems for workers and consumers so it needs to be understood that the good outweighs the bad. If one can overlook Empire's activity with a Union, pro-union consumers can surely overlook Agri's non-union (all other matters being equal)if fair is fair and America is still America. Let me check--is Obama declared king yet? No. Then we still have freedom of choice. The point that Empire workers make $9/hour on average while those at Agri make 7.50/hour on average has no meaning since labor prices vary by locale. A safety committee, English only signs--no special significance. A failure to offer any medical treatment on the job is an allegation that needs to be shown by the facts.
5) a tzedek hecksher is a joke.
6) Illegal alien workers are a real issue. If Agri hires illegals with full knowledge that they are illegal--this is meaningful. And yet we live in a country that fails to stop illegal workers and fails to systematically punish companies that hire them. Is this selective enforcement and is Agri being specifically targeted? This is a fair question but I would be quick to admit that if there is a substantial illegal problem--they need to get rid of those workers quickly to keep my business.

[estye]

Be forced to eat treif? How about a vegetable.

[shmuel]

State of the Jews,
Thank you, from all of us. Yours is the last word here. QED. Nothing more need be said. Next post.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

So Rabbi Mandel, the OU, Chabad, et. al are so worried about lashon ha-ra about AgriProcessors. What about all of the lashon ha-ra against Rabbi Ralbag and Triangle-K? We are told that Triangle-K is not reliable, but no one ever gives any hard evidence as to exactly why it is not a reliable hechsher. We are told that it is OK to say this because the lashon ha-ra is to'elet, for a constructive purpose. If it is constructive to warn people not to accept the kashrut of food under a certain certification when there is a lack of conclusive evidence as to why the hashgacha is unreliable, then why is it not to'elet to warn consumers of the lack of yashrut of a company when the evidence is quite clear? Or is kashrut more important than yashrut?

And why should we not judge Triangle-K, and all of the other ostensibly non-reliable agencies dan l'kaf z'chut, kosher until proven otherwise, to take Rabbi Mandel's reasoning to its logical conclusion?

[reader]

Wow, Ariel sokolovski sure knows his new testament.