When Rabbis Turn Halakha Into Superstition

A report from the NYC Department of Health points out a problem with Orthodox Judaism – hand washing.

What do Orthodox Jews do after using a bathroom or changing a baby's diaper?

They was their hands using a ritual washing cup and – on Shabbat – cold water. Each had has water poured over it 2 (or 3) times, the same process used when washing for bread, except the hands are washed alternately, once on the right, then once on the left, again on the right, again on the left, until each hand is washed three times.

But what many Orthodox Jews – especially hasidim and other haredim – do not do on Shabbat is use soap. And, perhaps worse than that, they use the same ritual washing cup as others who also may not have fist washed their hands normally with soap.

Enter the latest disease outbreak, concentrated – no surprise here – in Williamsburg and Borough Park, two heavily hasidic neighborhoods:

From the NYC Department of Health via VosIZNeais:

The Health Department today notified Orthodox Jewish residents of the Borough Park and Williamsburg communities in Brooklyn of an ongoing outbreak of shigella, an intestinal infection. So far this year, the two communities have had more than 150 cases of shigella, more than half of them among very young children. In the hardest-hit area – zip code 11219 – 60 people have been infected.

The Health Department is working with community leaders, including rabbis and City Council members, to raise awareness of the outbreak and to provide advice on prevention.

Shigella is a bacterial infection which is spread when food or water become contaminated with microscopic amounts of fecal matter from an infected person. It spreads when people do not wash hands well enough and have a tiny amount of infected stool on their hands, after using the bathroom or changing a diaper. Symptoms include diarrhea, fever, nausea and cramps. Shigella infections can last several weeks, and people typically recover without treatment. Antibiotics should only be given for severe cases as the shigella bacteria causing the outbreak in Brooklyn are already resistant to many common antibiotics. To avoid spreading the infection, people who are sick should drink plenty of fluids to prevent dehydration and should stay home from work or school until they are better. If you think you may be infected, call your doctor.

Because shigella spreads through fecal matter, prevention requires washing hands frequently and carefully with soap and warm, running water. Everyone should wash their hands for 20 seconds after using the toilet or changing diapers, and before eating or preparing food. If residents perform ritual hand washing (Asher Yatsar) after using the bathroom, they should also wash their hands with soap and warm water.

Shigella spreads easily among young children in daycare and preschool environments. Parents, teachers and caregivers should help young children wash their hands thoroughly and should make sure it is done properly. It takes very few shigella bacteria to cause illness.

“We encourage residents to be vigilant about hand-washing,” said Dr. Sharon Balter, Medical Epidemiologist in the Health Department’s Bureau of Communicable Disease. “Visit your doctor if you are sick, and stay home until you are well. It is especially important for children to stay home from school or day care when sick so that they don’t spread the disease to other kids.”

Large outbreaks of shigella have occurred in recent decades in traditionally observant Jewish communities in Borough Park, Williamsburg and other parts of New York State, New Jersey, Illinois, Maryland and Canada. Some 274 cases of shigella were reported in New York City in 2006, a rate of 3.4 cases per 100,000 people.

So why do Jews was their hands with a ritual washing cup after using a bathroom or the like? Cleanliness?

No.

The do it because of superstition. And this superstition is found nowhere in the Torah.

From Hashgafah.com:

Thank you for your question. There are two primary reasons for the requirement to wash our hands. One is because of Nekius - cleanliness, after we engage in an activity which would dirty or sully our hands, and before we Daven, learn, eat, etc. For this, we can wash our hands with anything that cleans them, there is no required amount of times to wash, and no cup is necessary. The other is because of Ruach Ra'ah, a "spirit of impurity" which can come onto a person and will only leave after they have washed their hands three times, alternating hands each time, and with a proper cup. Examples of when this would be required are when waking up in the morning, after taking a haircut, and after entering a bathhouse or bathroom, even if you did not bathe or use the facilities.

The actual act of going to the bathroom is in the first category, and just for going to the bathroom there is no requirement to wash your hands three times. However, as we mentioned above, there is a Ruach Ra'ah in a bathroom. Many Poskim today qualify this and say that our bathrooms don't have a Ruach Ra'ah, since there is no buildup of waste in the bathroom itself, it is immediately flushed away. It is also not so simple according to Halacha that our showers qualify as the bathhouses that Chaza"l spoke about. Therefore, many people are lenient today and don't wash three times after using the bathroom. If you DO wash three times, it isn't helpful to wash in the bathroom sink, as the requirement is after just BEING in the bathroom. This is why most Israeli apartments have sinks just outside the bathroom for washing, to circumvent this issue.

Take care,
Rabbi Aaron Tendler

So the cup is used to to remove evil spirits that somehow will not come off with regular hand washing.

People could try to get around this health problem (a.k.a. a sakana) by first washing their hands with soap and water and then washing ritually.

But many haredim refuse to use any soap – even diluted liquid soap – on Shabbat. They consider it a violation of Shabbat law. I remember being told even Rabbi Moshe Feinstein said (and I paraphrase) "I don't see how liquid soap is permissible." I think Rav Moshe then goes on to find a way to, reluctantly, permit it.

So this superstition with no Torah source takes precedence in some corners of the haredi world over real health issues, issues that are governed by clear halakha with a Torah source.

So you're at a haredi family's home for Shabbat. You use the liquid soap. So you're safe, right?

Wrong.

As long as one person there does not use soap and correctly wash their hands, the bacteria, if present in that person, can easily be spread to everyone else.

Note the areas of outbreak are heavily hasidic.

The more Litvish areas seem to have largely escaped the outbreak. This is most likely because, when faced with clear medical evidence, most Litvish poskim (rabbinic judges, so to speak) will choose to heed medical advice and avoid danger, just as halakha demands.

Hasidim and Hungarian non-hasidic haredim, on the other hand, are far more concerned with custom and superstition. Just as these rabbis refused to stop metzitza b'pe despite evidence of clear danger, they will probably refuse to take the steps necessary to stop this outbreak.

The purveyors of toilet tissue, Preparation H and other necessities to Brooklyn's haredim can look forward to a very profitable Spring.

UPDATE 6-27-08: The outbreak worsens.

Comments

[shmuel s]

GET A LIFE LOOSER!

[anon]

Shmuel you are the loser. These chasidik wonders believe that you can't wash your hands first and then do the magical three time formula. I will not buy any salad or food in brooklyn or prepared by a chasid. These guys and gals are pigs. How dare they spread there feces around. Pigs and chasidim wallow in there filth. Pigs are not kosher and anyone who refuses to wash their hands properly should be considered a pig and all manner of food he touches should be considered treif.

What happened to ushmartem m'ode es nafshoseichem?

Good luck to all you fressers.

For once Shmaryah went easy on these feine yidden.

[Dave]

From a Sephardic perspective:
My Mom always tells me how her Mom (granddaughter of a rabbi) always used to ask her "have you done your 'ntheela?" (netilat yadaim). Also in my paternal grandparent's apartment in Israeli there was a special cup for netilat yadaim.
However I know for a fact that the traditional side of my family does/ did wash their hands with soap frequently as well, since the soap is well-used.
Sad to say, for those anti-Muslims out there, but I have to admit, that having checked out the Muslim websites, when they do their ritual washing before prayer, many of them do use soap at the same time.

[Dave]

Another interesting point- according to some Karaite religious leaders (hachamim/ hakhamim/ chachamim)- they say that a person can construct a mikveh in their own home, and if certain technical adjustments are made, a regular shower area in one's home can serve as a mikveh.
I think that's very sensible, even though I am not Karaite.

[Yochanan Lavie]

My latest parody, with apologies to Stevie Wonder:

Very superstitious, the pashkavil's on the wall,
Very superstitious, a chumra for us all,
150 outbreaks, because the cup gets passed
Chadash assur min hatorah, the good things in the past.

[Refrain:]
Nu, When you believe in things that you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition is the way, Oy vey!

Very superstitious, wash your face and hands,
Rid me of the Ruach, I listen to the Man,
Keep me in a daydream, keep me gettin' shigella,
I don't wanna save me, my minhag is meshuga.

(repeat refrain).

[Shmendrik]

"I remember being told even Rabbi Moshe Feinstein said (and I paraphrase) "I don't see how liquid soap is permissible." I think Rav Moshe then goes on to find a way to, reluctantly, permit it. "

I have no idea whether he says that, but it's a known fact that he completely permits it. Everyone else permits it as long as it is sufficiently diluted. There is no halachic barrier to proper hygiene on Shabbos.

[Bartley Kulp]

We usually have liquid soap in our bathrooms anyways. One should also be able to use liquid dish soap if one runs out.

[ron]

Thanks FM, I was reading your article on the conversion scandal, and I was actually beginning to take you seriously. Then you hand out this shit to me and everyone else.

Unclean religious Jews.

Let me repeat that.

Unclean, religious Jews.

Are you serious?

More to the point, are you out of your fucking mind?

I'm not a big fan of Williamsburg. Can't stand the place myself. Hell, I can't stand yiddish either for that matter. Never saw what's so great about a bastardized form of German.

But there are real limits. This ... filth you call an article is just plain sick. Had you written this about anyone else, you would be considered a miserable hate filled racist. At best, a bigot.

I know very well why you're doing this. It's not because you're pissed off at the Lubavitch, and it's not because you feel the burning need to write for Great Justice. It's because of the list of links you have on the right side of the page. You love the attention.

Price for everything pal. You can deny it all you want, but one day the waiter is going to hand you a bill, and you are not going to like it. I just hope I get to see it. It'll be great.

[Anon]

Just out of curiosity Shmarya, do you wash each hand three times in the morning (be it with a cup or three times under the faucet)?

[avrohom B]

Wow, Incredible how many lurkers pop up when the precious mitzva of "removing evil spirits with water" gets put under the microscope.

"shbita, ki bat melech hi"

the unholy/holy shbita that rests on the fingers which is makpid on three times, she's also a princess. so please don't touch your orifices before you wash... lest she make you go blind or other horrible thing happen to you.

Funny, all the most obscure statements in the talmud take on obscure meanings which somehow become 'halacha',

how about;

1. dairy and fish....

2. fish and meat....

oh no... you'll get leprosy or something

[Shmarya]

ron, let's try to follow your 'logic':

1. There's an outbreak of Shigella in Williamsburg and Borough Park, not the Upper West Side and Staten Island.

2. The occupants of Willi and BP are overwhelmingly hasidic Jews.

3. Shigella is passed through poor hand washing.

4. People with lots of children and poor hand washing skills are much more likely to get Shigella.

5. Some sections of haredism have poor hand washing skills because they value a particular superstition over a real medical danger, just have they have done with MBP.

6. Those particular haredim are concentrated in BP and Willi.

7. BP and Willi are where this particular outbreak of Shigella is located.

8. Shmarya is a racist bigot and an antisemite for pointing out the hand washing superstition and the connection to the Shigella outbreak.

I can see logic and fact are difficult for you, ron, but try hard to process – the outbreak is due to poor personal hygiene. In haredi areas where soap is normally used on Shabbat and the superstitious hand washing is minimized or sanitized, there is no outbreak.

You'll not the Department of Health speaks directly to this issue in its notice on this issue.

What upsets you, ron, are the facts.

You can do one of two things about those facts.

1. You can wish those facts away as if they do not exist.

2. You can try to warn people and encourage change in their hand washing, etc.

You have chosen number 1.

[steve]

Hamodia Hypocrisy!!!

We all know that the editors of Hamodia will never print any negative stories regarding crime and corruption in the frum community. That's why you will never see an article there about Mondrowitz, Kolko or any other sexual predator. Nor will you find any articles about the Spinka case or any other financial shenanigans that take place. Nor will you ever read anything negative about Rubashkin and the several scandals surrounding them. The perception they like to give is that they are a positive, family oriented frum newspaper that is always dan lkaf zchus.

That's why in today's paper you will not find any mention of this Weinberg fellow who was arrested last night on child molestation charges. However, on page 11 of today's paper there is an article about a certain IDF rabbi who is accused by Hamodia of being mechalel Shabbos. What were the circumstances? In turns out the rabbi was with a platoon in the border town of Yerucham on Shabbos Erev Pesach. That day at the nearby border crossing of Kerem Shalom, Hamas terrorists attacked the troops stationed there by blowing up two jeeps. In all 13 IDF troops were wounded in the attack. Upon hearing the news and fearing the worst, this IDF rabbi got into a jeep and drove to the attack site. The Hamodia article blasts the rabbi, claiming that his presence was not needed at the site. It goes on to further condemn him for returning to his platoon on Shabbos in order to conduct the Seder that night. When the Hamodia asked the rabbi to explain his actions, he refused saying that he "owes the newspaper nothing." The article lists the full name of the rabbi and calls his actions a "public chillul shabbos".

So a rabbi who's in a war situation where there is pikuach nefashos involved is villified, while rabbis that commit the ulitimate crimes and sins along with major chillul hashem get a free pass. That is what they call balanced and unbiased reporting at Hamodia- all the news that they see as fit to print.

[Shmuel S]

Anon you are the LOOSER! If you dont like the hygene issue with the chassidim don't buy from them. Instead of whining like a little sissy about it just goto the cristians for your produce, you seem to like them more then the jews.

[avi]

R. Ovadia Yosef holds that using regular bar soap is fine on Shabbat.

[avi]

R. Ovadia Yosef holds that using regular bar soap is fine on Shabbat.

[plain ol' me]

Steve, do you have a link or online source for the article you mentioned about Hamodia?

[Dr Fred]

avi: R' Ovadia also says that if one is diffident re going to a mikva before a YomTov, he/she can stand under a shower.

[avrohom B]

r ovadio doesnt say either of those things

he says u can use liquid soap.

and he surely doesnt say a woman can use a shower for a mikve nida

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Pigs and chasidim wallow in there filth

Pigs actually prefer to be clean.

[Dr Fred]

avrohom;I specifically mentioned YomTov. Don't you read...or can't you?

[Sarah]

Another important question to ask is why they can't keep some of the mikvahs clean? There are ones in NYC that are so filthy that even after taking a good shower after you stil feel terribly dirty. Men I know who go to the men's mikvahs tell me they are even worse because many men don't shower before. That's a rule that should be enforced -- by intervention from the local Dept. of Health if necessary.

[steve]

Hamodia is not on the internet. The article was on page 11 of Monday's edition.

[Isaac Balbin]

My biggest worry is using the door handle at my workplace latrine. Many people don't even wash their hands, and those that do, often don't wait till their hands are completely dry. You know those drying machines are stoping global warming by turning off to quickly or you can't be bothered waiting while the other dude blow drys his hair with the hand dryer. Oh, and my workplace is 99.999% cultured and educated Goy ... the cleanest and brightest variety.

You don't need soap. A bottle of rubbing alcohol will do the trick. Get rid of the hand towels on shabbos, and use paper. Oh, and no more shaking hands to say Shoolem or Git Shabbos. Let's stick to the head nod.

There was a break out of a disease. That's really sad. Just control the disease. Based on the certitude in this article, there should be Shigella Chassidim all around the world, every day, for the last X score years. Why hasn't there been?

Schools seem to have outbreaks of lice these days. I wonder which "superstitious evil spirit" is the cause of lice. I've always pondered what the evil malach of toilets was called ... now I know. Shigella. Sheesh.

PS. When they asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach why he showered before AND after the Mikvah he said "Kovod HaBriyos". Great true anecdote. Quick now---new topic Mikvah Showering Regime ...

[fm]

Funny, during the middle ages, the Jews were accused of poisoning the wells during the black plaque. Why? Because the Jews contacted the disease in lower numbers than their gentile neighbors. And what is the real reason why the Jews were spared? Because they kept halacha and washed their hands after using the restroom and before eating bread.

The most probable reason for shigella outbreaks in Hasidic communities is because of the high birth rate. Having many children of nursery age raises the probability that some will not wash properly.

So for those who feel that having a large family is a religious obligation, you are not going to convince them otherwise because of some possible nausea in the event of a shigella outbreak

[chief doofis]

The formula for hand washing as followed by Orthodox Jews, is certainly superior to the form used by European gentiles until very modern times. Nevertheless, the use of soap to wash one's hands ought to be encouraged in all Jewish communities.

For some odd reason, there is less concern for hygiene in certain parts of the Charedi world. When "bochrim" come home for "bain hazmanim", I am very disappointed to see the difference in their demeanor, vis a vis, the boys who attend the local Day School. If you believe in growing a beard, fine. If you are going to shave, shave every day. There is no mitzva to look like Yasir Arafat! I realize that many people do not shave on Chol Hamoed, but there is no one who disallows showering on Chol Hamoed!

Similarly, most poskim (but not all), do not allow you to brush your teeth on a fast day. Again, many forbid brushing on Shabbat and holidays. On all other days, these activities are permitted. Kovod habrios would indeed, require oral hygiene. If you don't brush on Shabbat, use mouthwash!

There is no reason for "frum" people to be any less hygienic than "modern" people. They do not have to look bedraggled, unkempt, and certainly not dirty. The talmud says that a talmid chacham with a stain on his shirt ought to be "chayav missa" (deserving of death)

Somehow, sloppiness, in hygiene, in speech, in manners, in dress, etc., has become associated with the "frum" way of life.

Makes no sense to me!

[ron]

Wrong Shmarya. I do not "wish it away". I make it very clear in my post that I am no fan of the WB community.

What pisses me off is the tone of your article making them look like a pack of unclean barbarians when they are nothing of the kind.

It would be one thing if this issue had been raised for the past five years and they were stubbornly keeping from using basic hygiene because of a religious decision. But the date in the article you cited is 5/5/08, which implies that the issue is recent.

Information takes a while to get around. Did you bother contacting the local rabbis of that community and asking their opinion on the matter?

If the community decides to ignore a real health warning so they can avoid doing what they are required to do, then by all means, fire away. But to open fire, to mock their traditions when they haven't even had a chance to so much as hear this warning, that's just hatred masking as zeal.

And for the record, I don't see the majority of people, religious, non religious, not jewish, whatever, as using soap in general. When is the last time you went to a restaurant and saw someone use the hand soap?

I'm a fair man, I'll make it easy on you. Pick a restaurant at random (or a theater, or a bookstore), provided it has a restroom for multiple people, just hang around for forty minutes and observe how many people actually use the hand soap. If you see that 80% use it, I'll retract my statement.

And keep in mind that the restaurant workers don't use soap in the course of their duties, I worked at one, I should know.

-ron

[Shmarya]

t would be one thing if this issue had been raised for the past five years and they were stubbornly keeping from using basic hygiene because of a religious decision. But the date in the article you cited is 5/5/08, which implies that the issue is recent.…

f the community decides to ignore a real health warning so they can avoid doing what they are required to do, then by all means, fire away.…

Apparently you missed the entire mitzitza b'peh controversy. Or you are wholly dishonest.

And for the record, I don't see the majority of people, religious, non religious, not jewish, whatever, as using soap in general. When is the last time you went to a restaurant and saw someone use the hand soap?

I don't frequent restaurants much these days. But I'll tell you that, in the public restrooms I use, the vast majority of people wash their hands using soap.

Perhaps it is the type of restaurant you frequent that leads to your confusion, or the location of the restaurants you frequent. Or, perhaps, you're not telling the truth.

And keep in mind that the restaurant workers don't use soap in the course of their duties, I worked at one, I should know.

Funny. I was in the food business for a time. We washed our hands with soap. So do the employees who work in restaurants I'm familiar with.

In fact, a friend of mine, a pastry chef by profession, was called into his supervisor's office and reprimanded for not washing his hands after leaving the bathroom. He'd gone in to clean and bandage a burned hand. That took time. When he finished, he left. Another employee missed the handwashing part of his bathroom stay and thought he had left w/o washing. The reprimand stayed on his record.

Perhaps this non-handwashing is a regional problem and most New Yorkers are dismissive of health codes, etc.

Or, perhaps, people like ron are.

[Barry]

In the classic sixteenth century novel Gargantua and Pantagruel, a great novel that predates the writings of Shakespeare, noted author Francois Rabelais considered over fifty alternatives to using toilet paper.

He concludes

"...I say and maintain that there is no arse-wiper like a well-downed goose, if you hold her neck between your legs. You must take my word for it, you really must. You get a miraculous sensation in your arse-hole, both from the softness of the down and from the temperate heat of the goose herself; and this is easily communicated to the bum-gut and the rest of the intestines, from which it reaches the heart and the brain."

The heter for using toilet paper is flimsy. One can always use a goose. Rabelais was a doctor and made no mention of hand washing so he probably thought it unnecessary.

[Israel]

Et Machiah tu l'attends pour quand ?

[Israel]

Les tunisiens sont superstieux

[Yochanan Lavie]

Lemuel Gulliver, an 18th century explorer, happened upon a land of little people. When imprisoned in a large buliding, this is how he describes his sanitary arrangements:

I had been for some Hours extremely pressed by the Necessities of Nature;
which was no Wonder, it being almost two Days since I had last
disburthened myself. I was under great Difficulties between Urgency and
Shame. The best Expedient I could think on, was to creep into my House,
which I accordingly did; and shutting the Gate after me, I went as far as the
Length of my Chain would suffer, and discharged my Body of that uneasy
Load. But this was the only Time I was ever guilty of so uncleanly an
Action; for which I cannot but hope the candid Reader will give some
Allowance, after he has maturely and impartially considered my Case, and
the Distress I was in. From this Time my constant Practice was, as soon as
I rose, to perform that Business in open Air, at the full Extent of my
Chain, and due Care was taken every Morning before Company came, that
the offensive Matter should be carried off in Wheel-barrows, by two
Servants appointed for that Purpose. I would not have dwelt so long upon a
Circumstance, that perhaps at first sight may appear not very momentous,
if I had not thought it necessary to justify my Character in point of
Cleanliness to the world; which I am told some of my Maligners have been
pleased, upon this and other Occasions, to call in question.

Therefore, if geese cannot be found, Lilliputians can take away fecal matter with wheelbarrows. That is a Swift solution.

[Anon]

--I don't frequent restaurants much these days.--

I would hope you are not squandering the funds you schnorred to conduct research on restaurants and bars.

[steve]

Before you eat in any restaurant, the first thing you do is go to the kitchen and speak to the mashgiach. Once you can ascertain that the place is really kosher, you go to the bathroom and make sure that there is soap. I've run out of many restaurants when I saw that there's no soap in the dispenser.

There is no halachic barrier to proper hygiene on Shabbos.

There is, unfortunately, a chumra/minhag-based stupidity barrier.

[Duddy fin willy]

"Men I know who go to the men's mikvahs tell me they are even worse because many men don't shower before."

what about the people who use the mikva on shabbat, do they shower beforehand.

Thanks FM, I was reading your article on the conversion scandal, and I was actually beginning to take you seriously. Then you hand out this s**t to me and everyone else.

Unclean religious Jews.

Let me repeat that.

Unclean, religious Jews.

Are you serious?"

Shmarya didn't say the religious Jews were unclean and he didn't invent the issue.

The NYS Dept. of Health put out an advisory for those neighborhoods and said that certain minhagim of the religious Jews were contributing to the outbreak.

If you have a problem with the report of an outbreak of an intestinal bacteria in hassidic neighborhoods, then take it up with the NYS Dept. of Health.

Otherwise, just remember that ANYONE who doesn't wash their hands with soap and water after using the bathroom or changing diapers, etc. on ANY day of the week at ANY time is a potential health danger to him/herself and anyone that person comes into contact with - sharing meals included.

That they have a "religious" justification for their unhygenic practice is not a criticism of their religiosity, but it is rather a reflection of their IGNORANCE as to what their religion requires. As one poster said, "ther is no halachic barrier to proper hygene on Shabbos." If these people were better informed, they would realize this.

Realize this:

Had they been better informed and had their leaders not allowed ignorance-based unhygenic practices to continue, there would not be any discussion about "unclean religious Jews" right now.

The problem exists, it is real, and you're castigating the messenger.

Thanks FM, I was reading your article on the conversion scandal, and I was actually beginning to take you seriously. Then you hand out this s**t to me and everyone else.

Unclean religious Jews.

Let me repeat that.

Unclean, religious Jews.

Are you serious?"

Shmarya didn't say the religious Jews were unclean and he didn't invent the issue.

The NYS Dept. of Health put out an advisory for those neighborhoods and said that certain minhagim of the religious Jews were contributing to the outbreak.

If you have a problem with the report of an outbreak of an intestinal bacteria in hassidic neighborhoods, then take it up with the NYS Dept. of Health.

Otherwise, just remember that ANYONE who doesn't wash their hands with soap and water after using the bathroom or changing diapers, etc. on ANY day of the week at ANY time is a potential health danger to him/herself and anyone that person comes into contact with - sharing meals included.

That they have a "religious" justification for their unhygenic practice is not a criticism of their religiosity, but it is rather a reflection of their IGNORANCE as to what their religion requires. As one poster said, "ther is no halachic barrier to proper hygene on Shabbos." If these people were better informed, they would realize this.

Realize this:

Had they been better informed and had their leaders not allowed ignorance-based unhygenic practices to continue, there would not be any discussion about "unclean religious Jews" right now.

The problem exists, it is real, and you're castigating the messenger.

I wonder which "superstitious evil spirit" is the cause of lice.

Chazal said that lice spontaneously generate, though I might be mistaken.

[Yochanan Lavie]

In Fiddler on the Roof, the rabbis sing: "To lice, to lice, L'Chaim!" Now I know why.

[ron]

You got me Shmarya, this was all part of my nefarious scheme to deceive the public that restaurant workers don't use proper hygiene.

I mean, it's not like 60% of the people working in kitchens (and yes, bakeries) are illegal immigrants who get 4.00$ an hour (if they're lucky) and truly do not give a shit about whether their hands are washed.

In reality, restaurants use only documented immigrants, more likely, they use nice Jewish boys from upscale neighborhoods and pay them 25$/hr for cleaning the dishes.

I mean I came so close to fooling the public, but you are just too damn sharp for me.

And the whole thing with the metziza dpiah, wow, that was really clever of you. Normally one would think that the fact that I never commented on it one way or another would indicate that I agreed with the concept that it's nuts to do it. But you, with your quick thinking, and CSI-level detective skills have managed to figure out that the fact that I didn't comment on it in this post means that I think it's a great idea to suck the blood out of an 8 year old kid.

You. Are. A. Genius.

But this is all a great deal of bullshit. Restaurants are not clean places. What you see on the floor is not what you see in the kitchen.

Furthermore, going after an entire community because you just found out that it's lack of hand washing constitutes a health hazard is lunatic. Post a warning, sound an alarm, alert your congressman and carry a sign saying the sky is falling if it makes you happy.

But to imply that they prefer to live in filth when the story only recently broke? That's just fucking sick. But hey, it gets you attention, so go for it.

-ron

[ron]

fixed open italic.

[Shmarya]

-
ron –

What I actually wrote is as follows:

Some sections of haredism have poor hand washing skills because they value a particular superstition over a real medical danger, just have they have done with MBP.

So, you see, ron, what I was clearly doing was pointing out choices made by this subgroup of haredim, and the reason those choices are made.

As for the rest of what you write, perhaps it's simply the restaurants you frequent.

BTW, the slap at undocumented workers really becomes you.

Shmarya -

What you actually wrote was as follows:

"A report from the NYC Department of Health points out a problem with Orthodox Judaism – hand washing. "

You'll probably answer by directing me to read the entire post, but what you choose to lead with speaks volumes. Not that your agenda isn't clear enough anyway.

[ron]

Just the opposite Shmarya. It pisses me off to no end that these guys are being used and abused by the system.

-ron

[Larry Craig]

Pick a restaurant at random (or a theater, or a bookstore), provided it has a restroom for multiple people, just hang around for forty minutes and observe how many people actually use the hand soap. If you see that 80% use it, I'll retract my statement.

If you try hanging around a restroom for multiple people for forty minutes, you'll be arrested before you can finish your experiment.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

What about Analingus? , I always make sure that zugasi shetichye is using anti-bacterial soap over there.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Monsey: In that case, wouldn't the soap require a hechsher?

[Barry]

The Mayo clinic's instructions for proper hand washing with soap and water:

* Wet your hands with warm, running water and apply liquid soap or use clean bar soap. Lather well.
* Rub your hands vigorously together for at least 15 to 20 seconds.
* Scrub all surfaces, including the backs of your hands, wrists, between your fingers and under your fingernails.
* Rinse well.
* Dry your hands with a clean or disposable towel.
* Use a towel to turn off the faucet.

It is nearly impossible to vigorously rub all hand surfaces whilst holding a kli or get a sufficiently long flow of water out of a kli.

Knowledge of the importance of hygiene dates from the mid 19th century. One cannot blame earlier poskim who were happy with the use of a kli without soap who lived prior to then. The Chafetz Chayim however wrote his Mishnah Brura in the 20th century. He dealt with the question of how one should wash one hands if eating after using the toilet. One view (the Shulchan Aruch) was that one must first wash without a kli (which would allow Mayo practice) say the Asher Yatzer bracha and then wash again with a kli for Yadaaim. A more lenient view was that one could get away with one washing and combine both brachas as long as one used a kli. The Mishnah Brura says that those who follow the lenient unhygienic view can continue to do so. He does not state that because of current medical knowledge about the importance of hygiene, one must no longer follow the lenient view after using a latrine before eating and should follow the stricter Shulchan Aruch view. Indeed it was open for the Chafetz Chayim to declare that for reasons of sacanah, Mayo practice should always be followed before ritual washing before eating whether or not one has first been to the latrine. It seems that either he was ignorant of hygiene notwithstanding that it was by then generally known.

[OCD and Me]

The Mayo clinic's instructions for proper hand washing with soap and water:

. . .

* Use a towel to turn off the faucet.

Great to see this here! I thought I was just being obsessive-compulisive/germophobic doing this. Now I have the Mayo Clinic's endorsement. Cool!

I would add to their list: *When using a public restroom, use a clean paper towel to open the door when leaving.

[Yochanan]

Like I say, Wash hygenically before you wash ritually.

[onionsoupmix]

If possible, I would like to see an actual psak from a rav assuring liquid soap on shabbos. I have never heard of this and would like to see it in writing.

[Duddy fin willy]

I cant watch people kissing the mezuzah.
there should be a warning posted on the mezuzah, do not kiss me.
loh saamod al dahm....

[BOB]

The way some people comment about
this article with the use of profanities
need to have their mouths washed with
Natalith Yadim( washing of hand) and
soap.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Ron, try some decaf. You are correct that there are widespread hygiene issues in public places such as restaurants, and Shmarya is correct that there are valid concerns regarding how the ritual of religious washing is commonly implemented. I'll also mention the minhag of kissing the mezuza on public doorposts as another nasty vector for germs; I use the touch on side of fingers - kiss other side when I can't help myself from engaging in this custom.

This situation is yet more proof that the halachic system is frozen in time and is not responding to the current needs of the People by incorporating the most up to date, accurate information available. Rabbis should be crafting halacha to require the use of soap and/or other germ killing products before ritual washing, just as they should be banning the potential kiss of death dealt by some moyels.

I actually thought that the comment about kissing the mezuzah was a joke.

Do you never go bowling? Hold the handrails on an escalator? Shake a strangers hand?

These comments are insane.

[R]

I would like to see Kosher Innovations come up with the Shabbat Soap endorsed by your favourite rabbanim, with at least 50 hechshers on it and a big warning sticker saying not to use it on weekday because apparently you will be struck down if you dare use anything on shabbat that you use on weekday, for only £10.99 (that's $20 in the US and $25 in Canada).

[one of many]

this is an interesting article
proper washing of hands is important they teach in every school to children I think its grade one and two.
Parents should inculcate these things to children its normal. warm water wash hands back and front with enough soap,,,yada yada yada...

for they say now, sing twinkle twinkle little star... and when your done the song, your done the hands. funny isnt it?
but yet that simple a small child does understand.
ya think an adult understands? that they have to have there intellegence torah trained concience even to be insulted with instructions on how to wash your hand?
Please, give it up who ever made such added rules and commands above and beyoud the TOrah, thank you very much, have a nice day!
Shalom

I actually thought that the comment about kissing the mezuzah was a joke.

Do you never go bowling? Hold the handrails on an escalator? Shake a strangers hand?

These comments are insane.

Do you never go bowling?

- I wash or use hand sanitizer before putting my hand to my nose, mouth, or eyes.

Hold the handrails on an escalator?

Ditto

Shake a strangers hand?

Ditto

[pure sphardic]

avraham b
Chacham Ovadia Yosef allows bar soap on Shabbat, for the same reason he allows brushing your teeth on Shabbat. There are several Halachik issues involved, mainly if Psik Reshe Dlo Niha leh, in a rabbinic issur is permitted, the Sepharadim who tend to keep to the real Halacha permit it as did the Shulhan Aruch, even the Mishna Berura permits it at times but the Ashkenazi Poskim today are Machmir like usual.
He has several reponsa on this issua throughout his works.

[avrohom B]

pure sphardic-

Please back-up your statement with proof.

As far as my learning shows, nobody allows bar soap on Shabbat.

[steve]

Here's the opinion and research by a Sephardic rabbi, Rabbi Mansour:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?ClipDate=7/20/2005

The question was asked if it is permissible to use soap on Shabbat, or would it be considered a transgression of the forbidden Melacha known as ‘MiMacheik’?

There is a lenient opinion, which is that of Rabbi Yitzchak Lampronti (1679-1756) as written in his sefer ‘Pachad Yitzchak’ that says bar soap is permissible on Shabbat. But, that is a single opinion. It is the consensus of most Acharonim including Chacham Ben Tzion, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and Chacham Ovadia Yoseph that it would be more preferable to use soft soap. Today, soft soap is especially easy to come by, and most people in fact already have soft soap in their homes.

There is one point about soft soap however, that must be noted. Chacham Ben Tzion makes it clear that the soft soap should be watered down. He holds that soft soap still has a little thickness to it, and the problem of ‘MiMacheik’ can still exist. ‘MiMacheik’ is the forbidden task on Shabbat of smoothing out or rubbing, which is the basis used by the consensus of Acharonim for restricting use of bar soap on Shabbat in the first place. Chacham Ben Tzion therefore says, it would be proper before Shabbat to prepare diluted soft soap by watering down the soap. This way the soap will not be thick at all but rather free flowing and thus permissible to use.

To review, those who are lenient to use bar soap on Shabbat should not be scolded as they have the Pachad Yitzchak to rely on, but the preferred method is to dilute soft soap in advance in order to avoid any problem.

[avrohom B]

Thanks for clearing things up steve.

[pure sphardic]

avraham b
Chacham Ovadia's response is in his book Yehave Daat vol 5 siman 50. He clearly states that it is completely Muttar for Sepharadim, but for Ashkenazim he mentions there is where to be machmir.
He quotes a newly found Responsa of the Maimanodies that permits using bar soap as well, and proves that this is the opinion of the Gaon MeVilna as well.
The basis of the discussion there is if the reason the Gemara forbids crushing snow is because of Nolad, which would apply to soap as well, or if the reason is a Gezera that they should'nt squezze juice, which would eliminate any problem with bar soap.
Check out his Teshuva, it's fun to read like usual. His briliance never fails to amaze me