The Satmar Rebbe and the Holocaust

Many right wing and haredi Jews (including a few who comment here) like to say that Hungarian Jews did not know about Auschwitz. If they had only known, if the left wing Zionists the "controlled" Jewish communal affairs had only told them, deportations could have been stopped and hundreds of thousands of lives saved.

This is false for many reasons, not the least of which is that tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews did know, had heard the rumors and had even met Slovakian and Polish Jewish refugees. Most Hungarian Jews chose to believe that what happened to Polish Jewry would not happen to Hungary's Jews.

But fact has never stopped haredim before, and it is unlikely to stop them now – even when the fact is a clear indictment of one of their revered leaders…

…Joel Teitelbaum, the Satmar Rebbe.

Anna Porter, on page 158 of her new book, Kasztner's Train, and in the accompanying footnote, has this to say about the "Grand" rabbi of Satmar:

• Two Zionist activists went to the Satmar Rebbe to warn him and his followers that the Nazi deportation trains would be taking them to Auschwitz, with gas chambers, crematoria and mass killings.
• The Satmar Rebbe threatened these two men with excommunication and ordered them to be silent. He did not want his followers "panicked."

The Satmar Rebbe never told the Jews of Satmar where those trains were headed. The Jews of Satmar went like sheep to slaughter. The Satmar Rebbe, on the other hand, went into hiding and was later among those saved by Rudolph Kasztner.

The Satmar Rebbe – a leading and viscous anti-Zionist before the war (along with the 5th and 6th Lubavitcher Rebbes, and the Munkatcher Rebbe) – went on be the leading anti-Zionist of the post-war era.

The vast majority of his followers and the rest of the Jews of Satmar went on to become smoke.

Related Post: The Belzer Rebbe and the Holocaust.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

I detest anti-Zionist Jews. (Not Jews who cricize Israel; it's not perfect, but Jews who say there shouldn't be an Israel). Have you ever heard of anti-Garibaldi Italians who argue Italy should be "returned" to Austria, the Papal States, France, and Spain, for example? Only the Jews are there own worst enemies.

[chief doofis]

And yet, we fools but all of our meats from them, let them write our t'fillin, etc. We should boycott the scum. The problem is, that our own decadent leadership, would never organize alternate sources for our food and religious supplies.

What a bunch of crap. There are a handfull of true anti-Zionist Jews who want the State dissolved. The rest of Satmar, while hardly fitting anyone's profile of a typical Zionist neither harm nor help the Medinah.

And stop balming our leaders for the fact that virtually all shochtim today are chassidish or chabadniks.

When was the last time YU offered semicha in shechita? Probably about the same time YU parents stopped urging thier kids to become shochtim.

Our kids are free to learn hilchos shechitah and become shochtim. We don't want them to.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Chief: I don't eat meal mart 'cause it's Satmar. The anonymous guy has a point- Modern Orthodoxy has become a yuppie religion that has ceded the "dirty work" of schechita, sofrut and other things to the "black hats." It needs to encourage the knitted kipa crowd to do those things, or their children will either be non-Ortho or "black hat."

[SJ]

I am no longer a zionist myself because I feel that Israel is gradually becoming less and less capable to protect a jew's right to not be orthodox.

Israel's nonorthodox jews should move to the USA.

In other words, a Jew who disagrees with you is not a Jew and his kashrus cannot be trusted?

am no longer a zionist myself because I feel that Israel is gradually becoming less and less capable to protect a jew's right to not be orthodox.

Israel's nonorthodox jews should move to the USA.

Posted by: SJ | May 02, 2008 at 08:57 AM

FINALLY! Something on which the Orthodox and the non-Orthodox can agree!

[Yochanan Lavie]

In other words, a Jew who disagrees with you is not a Jew and his kashrus cannot be trusted?

Their kashrut can be trusted, but I choose not to enrich them, so they can buy full page ads in the NY Times attacking Israel. I don't give kavod to people who have no respect for me.

Ah, finally someone who admits he is a rodef kavod!

[Yochanan Lavie]

No, idiot, it's about mutual respect. Something you black hats know nothing about.

BTW: I am tired of self-righteous black hats parachuting into this blog and arrogantly giving us the party line, as if we've never heard it before. I am a live and let live kinda guy, but this is our space. Start your own damn blog to spew your pablum.

[DK]

We should write a book about all of the haredi rabbis who helped facilitate the mass murder of Eastern European Jewry by banning escape and suppressing information and call the book,

"HITLER'S GEDOLIM"

No, it about bigotry. I am not black hat but you cannot get past the idea that groups of people who dress alike all think alike.

By claiming this space for people who share your beliefs only, how are you any better than the blackhatters you claim only want to hear the party line?

Open mindedness means open to the right and the left.

I find repulsive the notion that because I disagree (strongly) with Satmar regarding Zionism I cannot do business with them or respect the good that they do.

[DK]

"By claiming this space for people who share your beliefs only, how are you any better than the blackhatters you claim only want to hear the party line?"

BULL!!! Everyone gets their view stated here ... try that on ANY blackhat site.

Hence, this we are WAY better than the blackhatters according to YOU. Thanks for pointing that out.

Blaming rabbi for the holocaust nonesense.

There was no escape and no one could have imagined what was coming.

What should the rabbis have done? If they believed this was going to be a tough period like all those before and knew there was no place on earth accepting Jewish refugees it made sense to do the only thing they could do: Give the people hope that this too might pass.

[So interesting and so not unique]

IT saddens me to read the Reb Yoel this and Reb Yoel that. Clearly none of you knew Reb Yoel and Faige. And by that I mean in the home in the kitchen.

Clearly a look back makes everything black and white.

Are you aware how Reb Yoel regretted his comments about Israel and could not get his
people to take them back. As he said, 'I said those things when I was depressed and in Israel recovering. I could not take them back no matter how I tried.'

Are you also aware that Reb Yoel tried to break up Satmar before his petirah?

Of course not. He told us that Satmar was too large for one rebbe and it must be divided.

Are you aware he detested R Moshe of Sighet and said he would be the end of Satmar.

Are you aware that he had two daughters who perished in the death camps and that no one would ever honor them or mention them even upon his request. Go read even his hespedim. Where are his girls?

Are you aware of the brutal attacks on Faige after his passing and how she was vilified and the lies swarmed her world?

Are you aware why Reb Yoel never published his noted in depth understandings of Kabbalah and that he was a true nistor?

He did not because he face all his time and Faige's time to working to get jobs and feeding and tending to the survivors who had immense psychological problems and loss. They cooked for them. They were Aba and Ima to them. He had to figure out housing and jobs and it was beyond too much. Their welfare came first.

He was surrounded by amibitious hooligans. Look at Lubavitch and the palace take over.

Be careful jumping on tales and complete emes.

Yes i was close to both of them and was am a very strong religious tzioni and they were like family. I was ben bayis.

Reb Yoel was actually sweet. Had to yell as his chassidim cause they were from a world of small villages and were broken yet very tough people. He made it a point to meet with everyone privately until his health which was never good after the camps and satmar then out grew its means to serve all.

There is no satmar now as we know today. And we know why.

Stop making Rebbes into gods and divining rods .

I am long time student and friend of Rav Hutner tzl and days of chaim berlin. I also read your reports on Reb Aaron. Nothing surprizes me but clearly many of you here are younger men. YOu ran with his refusal to go to reb moshe as if that was some kind of way to the holy mountain.

Did any of you ask what was this carlebach situation and who he was and what the problem was? Of course not.

Why did you not ask? Beats me.

and i do not give fructhlander or reb aaron a pass on these other matters but keep things straight..

Let me tell you . This blog is to be lauded for it reporting on news and posting clippings.
Continue....but remember too rabosie
None of you understand what is going down in the world of abuse. Your naivity and lack of involvement on any level is lo tov.

YOur ability to be manipulated should come as no surprize....

What am i going to tell you?

You are so far out of the loop with victims that other than the news posts why even bother to comment?

This is america. In america and canada and the UK we do not help and stand by victims of sexual predators. Victims know never to go to any public rabbi or any Vaad. There is an undergound network that does what it can.

This is not Israel where these things are not tolerated and just about anyone outed has the police after them.

There----some Chassidic courts have real reporting systems set up to nail these people. There is a huge problem of course but here we do nothing.

This is an example of nothing. Say what you will but why did you folks not make sure a simple case like the kolbo case never become a mess?

Answer--you are poseurs and voyeurs . Stop talking so much and whining. Do something. I assume some of you have money. Get lawyers organized who see torah leaders as men and more or less now CEO's.

Go after protecting victims. Help push law suits.

Look at the catholics...they fought the issue and then did mea culpa. The pope comes here and openly begs for forgiveness.

All of you are enamored by a system that is venal, petty, powerful, broken and filled with people interested in their keeping their positions and expanding power.

i am amazed you think this has to do with Torah.

Simply amazed. And you are the next generation and you are failing our people. Not all of you per se but you get the point.

do you know what reb yoel did when a victim confessed to him. Some youngster. He had a basic solution. He would go to the predator and put it simply---Cut it out or I will kill you. Shock your sensibilites ???

...Set something up minus communal rabbis or yeshiva heads....get people not corrupt and people who victims will go to and speak. Stay away from communal organizations that are fronts for the agudah.....

Do you think any victim would go to say the Vaad haRabbonim of Baltimore after they issues their policy statement on abuse.

Victims know.... helpers are gossips and the worst tend to be who?...rabbis.....

And since when do rabbis know the first thing about helping people with critical life issues? They do not and are not trained and are essentially not able to do any of this.

This is why for example chassidei Gur in israel goes to their list of the best most skilled therapists in the field. And guess what.?
The main referral and therapist and advisor is a non religious woman who has been b g time blessed by the Rebbe of Gur.And is considered THE Expert in Israel.

And all of you know of the troubles in Gur.

Yet in spite of the troubles and the stuff tossed at the Rebbe and some of it isquite horrible there he is ...organized, getting the best help possible and using the law enforcement of the state of Israel to arrest these predators.

No need to reply to this . I am in the wind. I come from a world where talk is cheap and action is everything. My chaveri told me to not write this....why write to talkers not doers.

I assume they are correct on some level but one message to be read is one message less on my cheshbon.

gut shabbes

[YA]

What could the gedolim have done?! Simple. Allow their flock to leave to the then Palestine. But heavens no! It would have compromised their neshamos! This was and is complete nonsense. Saving one's life is of paramount importance. The Satmarer Rebbe knew this well but he only saved his own skin and left his 15,000 or so fellow Satmarer citizens to die in Aushwitz or other assorted camps. "Everything will be well" Yeah right. Shame.

[Shmarya]

And all of you know of the troubles in Gur.

Yet in spite of the troubles and the stuff tossed at the Rebbe and some of it isquite horrible there he is ...organized, getting the best help possible and using the law enforcement of the state of Israel to arrest these predators.

False. He is currently protecting (or trying to protect) several pedophiles, including Avrohom Mondrowitz.

I assume that much else of what you write is also false.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

"What could the gedolim have done?! Simple. Allow their flock to leave to the then Palestine"

Except that from 1929 on, the British limited immigration and gave the power over who entered to the Jewish Agency. The Jewish Agency had a policy of not giving entry permits to religious Jews.

It was not in the power of the gedolim to "allow" their flocks to go to Palestine.

[Shmarya]

Mizrachi (REligious Zionists) had entry permits after 1929.

What you mean to say is, haredim did not, not because of bigotry but because the Jewish Agency distributed these permits by party / political group and haredim refused to participate in that process.

Haredim that did participate did get entry visas. That is how the Gerrer Rebbe and close his followers came to Israel in the very early 30s.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

"Haredim that did participate did get entry visas. That is how the Gerrer Rebbe and close his followers came to Israel in the very early 30s"

Not true. Aguda was allocated 5% of the entry permits at a time when they comprised at least 30% of the Jewish population of Poland. The Aguda quota was always filled; there was a long waiting list for entry permits given to Aguda. Those who got were far outnumbered by those who wanted and couldn't get because the Aguda quota was so small.

Any further participation in the system would have been an exercise in futility. The Jewish Agency didn't want Charedim in Palestine.

[Shmarya]

And not all of Aguda was Zionist. Most was not.

In other words, 30% (which is a major inflation of the figures – only about 30% of Poland's Jews were even Orthodox then) included many groups that were a lot less friendly to Zionism then Ger.

[MalachHamovies]

Shmayra,

I just finished anna porter's book. Kasntner was a tzadik ! He spent his every waking moment trying to save jews.

When kastner was on trial his friends tried to get the satmar rebbe to testify on behalf of him. Porter also wrote that the satmar rebbe refused stating that he was saved not by a zionist but by god. Some of this info is in the footnotes as well.

I think the rebbe didn't want to testify because he probably didn't want to be cross-examined about his role in the holocaust.

Many people at that time thought that the reason he did not want to testify was because he did not want to give the zionists and zionism a good name.

Now we know the real reason. Truth (in the blog world) wins out in the end.

[MalachHamovies]

People should read Porters book. It's a real eye opener. And there is plenty of documentation provided.

I know it's difficult to know that we were wrong for many years. But if you have an open mind (not a dorfmentch (peasant) mind) for the truth then it's no problem.

[Ya]

Lawrence, you state that "It was not in the power of the gedolim to "allow" their flocks to go to Palestine." Not true. Illegal emmigration continued even during the war. See also http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/haredi-and-the.html Bottom line is that their "Daas Torah" was seriously flawed, if you believe in such things.

[Moshe]

Are you justifying the Jewish Agency for giving very few visas to members of Agudah, because they were not Zionist enough? When lives were in danger? You have a warped sense of what is right & wrong.
If you were in charge, you probably would have refused to save the lives of Chareidim!

[Moshe]

Are you justifying the Jewish Agency for giving very few visas to members of Agudah, because they were not Zionist enough? When lives were in danger? You have a warped sense of what is right & wrong.
If you were in charge, you probably would have refused to save the lives of Chareidim!

[Noclue]

The idea that Kastner wanted to save Jews is absurd. Kastner was a SS major in Russia and Poland before he came to Hungary. Kaltenbrunner testified at Nuremberg that Becher was responsible for some of the worst atrocities.

Becher only wanted to save his own neck as did other prominent Nazis who realized that the war was hopelessly lost. Himmler at one point ordered the concentration camps closed. Did he also want to save Jews?

The only reason that anybody defends Becher is because by doing so they are indirectly defending Kastner. Even if you think Kastner was correct in his actions, which I do not, that is no reason to exonerate a Nazi war criminal who no doubt murdered thousands of Jews.

Kastner himself committed perjury in the Greenwald libel trial when he testified that he did not give favorable testimony about Becher after the war. In fact, he did. That is undisputed.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

"Illegal emmigration continued even during the war" With all due respect, illegal immigration was a major undertaking and very dangerous. For one thing, until June, 1944, Jews in Hungary were relatively safe. To undertake illegal immigration, they would have to pass through Croatia, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, any of which would have been far more perilous than staying in Hungary. Secondly, illegal immigration took funds and an organizational structure charedim just didn't have. And the people that did have it, the Zionist estabishment, geared itself to saving its own. The precious few Charedim who were able to leave Europe during WWII and go to Palestine were a small exception. For the vast majority, the option did not exist.

[steve]

And all of you know of the troubles in Gur.

Yet in spite of the troubles and the stuff tossed at the Rebbe and some of it isquite horrible there he is ...organized, getting the best help possible and using the law enforcement of the state of Israel to arrest these predators.

This guy must be a comedian. Besides Mondrowitz, there is a fellow by the name of A.M. Leizerowitz who was molesting children in the Ger Mesivta in Brooklyn for over a decade. This predator fled to Israel (Ir Miklat) in 2006 and is living there openly and comfortably. His victims have been trying to get an indictiment secured so that extradition proceedings can begin. However, DA Hynes refuses to hand down the indictment.

[steve]

And yet, we fools but all of our meats from them

Our only other option is Rubashkin, which is not really an option.

[steve]

Speaking of Rubashkin, here are two heroes that helped expose some of the fraud and corruption:

New York - When AgriProcessors, America’s largest kosher slaughterhouse, was caught on tape conducting what a federal agency later called “acts of inhumane slaughter,” officials at the plant knew they had been infiltrated by undercover investigators. What the company didn’t know was that two of those infiltrators were a married couple who keep kosher themselves.

Meet Hannah and Philip Schein, undercover investigators for the animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Now, for the first time, they are going public with their identities.

Since 2002, the Scheins have taken on about 20 undercover cases, as well as others they have conducted publicly. The targets of their stings have run the gamut from an egg farm managed by Trappist monks, to a Canadian bear-baiting operation that has supplied fur to the British Royal Guards, to songstress Beyoncé Knowles, once an enthusiastic wearer of fur.

But thanks to their background and their knowledge of the laws of kashrut, Hannah, 33, and Philip, 43, have come to specialize in investigating kosher slaughterhouses. Indeed, PETA had not investigated kosher operations until the Scheins came on board; since then, the group has been involved in about eight such cases. Philip in particular has been credited with becoming an expert on kosher slaughter.

“If it weren’t for Philip and his interest and pursuit of this issue, I’m not sure that we would have been able to do those investigations,” said Daphna Nachminovitch, PETA’s vice president of cruelty investigations. “They were Philip’s brainchild.”

Hannah and Philip are currently working (openly) on a project to reform what they say are animal abuses committed in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods in the course of observing the pre-Yom Kippur absolution ritual known as kapparot.

International Glatt isn't kosher enough?

[Ya]

Lawrence, you state that the Cahredim did not have the funds and an organizational structure to escape the burning fires of Europe. Another reason why Charedim need to be well versed in secular knowledge. Also, as it turned out, the secular (and religious) Zionists were right and the Charedim were wrong. The facts speak for themselves.

[Shmarya]

Are you justifying the Jewish Agency for giving very few visas to members of Agudah, because they were not Zionist enough?

Lives were not directly or immediately in danger until the late 1930s. You'll note Lawrence Reisman says, "from 1929 on…"

Also note that, as the news of Germany's genocide spread to Palestine, the Jewish Agency stopped worrying about whether or not those rescued were officially Zionist.

[Shmarya]

The idea that Kastner wanted to save Jews is absurd. Kastner was a SS major in Russia and Poland before he came to Hungary. Kaltenbrunner testified at Nuremberg that Becher was responsible for some of the worst atrocities.

Becher only wanted to save his own neck as did other prominent Nazis who realized that the war was hopelessly lost. Himmler at one point ordered the concentration camps closed. Did he also want to save Jews?

The only reason that anybody defends Becher is because by doing so they are indirectly defending Kastner. Even if you think Kastner was correct in his actions, which I do not, that is no reason to exonerate a Nazi war criminal who no doubt murdered thousands of Jews.

Again, you display your ignorance of context, of fact and your complete inability to logically process information.

First of all, you mean Becher, not Kasztner..

Kaltenbrunner was one of the most vicious Nazis. He murdered tens of thousands of Jews. He opposed Himmler's orders to stop killing Jews issued near the end of the war, and continued to murder Jews in defiance of those orders.

On the other hand, Becher tried to enforce those orders. And, even after Himmler later rescinded them for fear that evidence – live survivors – would fall into Allied hands and be used against him in War Crimes trials, Becher bluffed his way onward, claiming the orders were still in effect. What he did saved thousands of Jews.

Katenbrunner had every reason to lie about Becher.

An intellectually honest person – something you are not – would take the time to study the facts, including the facts that exonerate Kasztner.

Instead, you repeat drivel ripped out of context from people loke Friedlander or regurgitated from long discredited people like Ben Hecht.

You first decide Kasztner's guilt and then assemble the 'evidence' to prove it.

[yidandahalf]

re YL's post of 08:02. Absolutely correct. And go down to the next rungs to Conservative and Reform and they kvell over the odd Chasidish/BT they can get into their shuls. Suddenly the guilt over not being "Jewish enough" will subside.

[yidandahalf]

to poster of 01:22 "International Glatt isn't kosher enough?" Can you elaborate, like WTF are you on about?

[mordecai]

It is amazing how many of the Hassidic leaders knew enough to save their own asses during the Holocaust. Obviously I cannot blame them for wanting to live -- who would not? Was it just luck, chance, and fate that these "leaders" high-tailed it out of harm's way just before the hammer fell? But perhaps they might have warned their fellow Jews who they claim to love of impending disaster.

Then some of the post Holocaust Jewish theology blamed non-frum Jews and Zionists for evoking the wrath of G-D. So, it was hypothesized that the number tattoos on the forearm was punishment for Jews not laying on tefillin and similar claptrap crackpot theories. Starvation rations in concentration camps was the punishment for the Jews who ate non-kosher.

My Grandfather, long since dead, grew up in Williamsburgh and had no love for the Satmars. He had near violent disputes with them frequently in the 1940s because of their steadfast opposition to the establishment of an Israeli State.

To see these Quislings arm in arm with anti-semites like Iran's President raises my blood pressure. Yet they would hold me in utter contempt for my not following many of the mitzvahs.

[anna porter]

to Noclue: your comment: "The only reason that anybody defends Becher is because by doing so they are indirectly defending Kastner. Even if you think Kastner was correct in his actions, which I do not, that is no reason to exonerate a Nazi war criminal who no doubt murdered thousands of Jews."
Kasztner's Train does not exonerate Becher. It is clear about who Becher was and why he helped Kasztner to save Jews. It is up to the reader to decide for him/herself, once all the accounts - known so far - are presented in the book, whether Kasztner was acting on behalf of the Jewish Agency Executive, as several documents show, or honoring a promise to Becher, made while they were bargaining for lives.

[ABOUT SATMAR REBBI]

The satmar rebbi told everyone who asked him during the war years to run run by any means they can, and shape or form they know. I had agranfather who survived because the rebbi told him to flee to romainia and hid as a gentile..But folks it almost immposible to hide or flee for any jew..go ask the people who survived..the rules were if a jew gets caught he gets "shot on site" and many were .it was a daily ritual to kill jews..its very easy to blame now and say this and say that...whats more read Rebbi Weismandal's book min hamitesar where he knew in 1942 that jews were being gased and he wrote the world over about this to deaf ears..in the end he and his family were on a train to aushwits..his wife and kids were gased and he was a surviver only because he jumped from a moving train..it was next to immposible to flee back then....lets stop bashing and blaming, it was an act that we people will never be able to answer..only one G-d know why this happened .

to poster of 01:22 "International Glatt isn't kosher enough?" Can you elaborate, like WTF are you on about?

Posted by: yidandahalf | May 02, 2008 at 04:52 PM

There are three sources of Glatt Kosher meat, not two.

One can avoaid both Meal Mart and Rubashkin by buying from International Glatt.

[PETA Supporter]

There should be more people supporting PETA.

Aren't most people in favor of
People Eating Tasty Animals??

[Noclue]

To Anna Porter. I do not care if Katzner was acting on his own behalf pursuant to a promise or on behalf of the Jewish Agency.
Becher was a war criminal and any promise made to him was null and void under the common law and under any view of morality because it was made under extreme duress.

Nobody has bothered to explore Becher's actions before Hungary. According to Wilkipedia Becher was a SS Major with a Death Head Battalion responsible for perfecting the methods to kill Jews. He is therefore guilty of complicity in mass murder and likely, almost certainly, directly involved in the murder of countless of Jews.

The question of Katzner is not his actions; those are pretty well documented. The question is also not that he wanted Jews murdered. Even Ben-Hecht does not argue that. The question is whether a flaw in his charachter allowed him to be co-opted in the service of the Nazis.

Everybody is entitled to reach their own conclusions. To me, Judge Halevi heard all the evidence and observed the demeanor of Katzner as he testified; the appellate court only read the cold record. I give more weight to Judge Halevi and put especial weight on Katzner's actions after the war; when he was free to do what he wanted. I also credit the testimony of Eichman, may his name and memory be extinguished, who stated that he had an implicit deal with Katzner.

I also do not put much weight on those who speculate that Hungarian Jews could not have escaped. Nobody can know that for sure. Thousands or tens of thousands may have been able to hide until the danger passed. Moreover, Germany at that time was pressed for resources and there was the beginning of political pressure to end the killings. Nobody can know for sure how things would have played out.

Finally, Katzner could have assassinated Eichman. There is no evidence that he was ever searched for weapons. Any replacement for Eichman would not have been as effective or ruthless. No doubt that Katzner would have suffered a horrible death. But that happened anyway.

[mark]

while i truly believe the satmar rebbe and the munkatcher rebbe were zaddikim they failed misreabally tell my fammilly to stay and advising those to tear up their travel tickets. the real story is re: the vvad hatzola 1n 1942 rabbi steven weiss met with reb aron kotler and told him to march. the reponse published in professr zuroffs book was you are the grave diggers of the jewish people,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,david kranzle died but the truth lives on only rabbis were on the agenda to be saved mark mayer appel

[Shmarya]

If anything ever proved your bias and your foolishness, this last comment of yours does.

1. You – without any evidence – presume Becher was equivalent to Eichemann or other Nazi war criminals.

2. You insist Kasztner and/or the Jewish Agency should have abandoned Becher during his war crimes trial. But you do not even begin to think about what that might have meant for other unsavory men who were then cooperating with the Agency or who would do so in the future.

In other words, should a full member of Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, say, who is secretly helping Israel be automatically tied and convicted as a terrorist because he was a mid-level Al Aksa MArtyrs Brigade member?

In what passes for your mind, the answer is yes.

Of course, that would end most cooperation from people like that or like Becher – and far more Jews would have died or will die as a result.

But you don't care about that – you have your 'principles' to stand on, now don't you?

3. Like it or not, and for whatever reason, altruistic or greed, Becher saved thousands of Jews – far more Jews than were save by all your haredi rescue efforts combined.

Of course, Kasztner also saved more Jews than anything haredim – but you don't care about tht.

4. I also do not put much weight on those who speculate that Hungarian Jews could not have escaped. Nobody can know that for sure. Thousands or tens of thousands may have been able to hide until the danger passed.

Tens of thousands could have gone into hiding? Where?

Only someone wholly ignorant of the facts on the ground – in other words, you – would be foolish enough to write those sentences.

5. Finally, Katzner could have assassinated Eichman. There is no evidence that he was ever searched for weapons. Any replacement for Eichman would not have been as effective or ruthless. No doubt that Katzner would have suffered a horrible death. But that happened anyway.

Another example of your inability to think logically, to understand history, and to put invents in their proper context.

If Kasztner had killed Eichmann, the Nazis would have murdered thousands – perhaps tens of thousands – of Jews in immediate reprisal and sped up deportations.

It also would have made Himmler's slowing and stopping deportations impossible.

And no Jews would have been saved by Kasztner or by others trying to save lives.

This means few of Hungary's Jews would have survived.

As always, you truly have no clue.

[Shmarya]

I should also add that your earlier reference to Saul Friedlander's work is exactly what I said it is.

I saw the book just before Shabbat and looked up the Kasztner reference.

Friedlander, who gives the whole Brand-Kasztner affair only a few short paragraphs of space in a 900 page book, does say it is hard to believe Kasztner did not have disproportionate influence on who was selected for the so-called Kasztner train.

But, as I presumed, the remark – and most of the small section of the entire affair – is unsourced. The footnote linked to this particular statement of Friedlander leads to a very brief explanation from him of the Kasztner trial, perhaps 50 words in all.

Yet you, in comments to an earlier post, base much of your belief about Kasztner on this work of Friedlander (along with Ben Hecht's smear).

No honest person should – or would – make the statements you have made without actually looking at real sources.

But you are not an honest person, are you, noclue?

[Noclue]

You did not say that Friedlander did not have a source. You said that I misrepresented Friedlander. As you now admit, I did not.

Friedlander does not say that "it is hard to believe..." He says that Katzner had enormous influence over the committee. If you have a problem with Friedlander's sources, why do you not write him?

Yes. Let off murderers of Jews because somebody may in the future not cooperate. How about the reverse. Let off a murderer now and you will ensure that there will be more murderers in the future.

No doubt that murdering Eichman would have led to messy reprisals killing hundreds or thousands of Jews. This would have, in turn, dispelled any doubt on the part of Hungarian Jewry that they were safe and would have led to maximum efforts for self-preservation. Who can tell what the final outcome would have been? Who can even be sure that the Hungarian people would have went along. After all, the Bulgarian Church successfully intervened on behalf of Bulgarian Jews (but not foreign Jews in Bulgaria).

As for places to hide, Belski saved two thousand Jews (more than Kastner) by hiding in the forests. No doubt any historian would have told him it was impossible to hide two thousand or so Jews, including children, for five or so years. Buthe did it. Hungarian Jews would have to hide for about six months.

You obviously prefer the orderly deportation to Auschwitz. Less messy, no doubt. The Nazis also preferred order.

The woods are a good place to hide. Arming yourself is also a good idea when you are being hunted down. At least you get to take die like a man. You do not evenknow whether the Wermacht stationed in Hungary wouldhave went along, especially since everybody at this time realized that Germany had lost the war.

Killing Eichman would have probably stopped or considerably slowed the killing. At that point in the war, no replacement had the will to proceed so ruthlessly.

The murder of the Jews of Europe depended on top executives like Eichman, and on mid-level executives and on the guards and murderers in the camps and on the Wermacht who protected them and on the railroad executives and engineers who provided transport, and on the financiers who provided the money and factories of death. And on the priests who heard confession from Hitler's ordinary executioners and granted them absolution, instead of warning them that they risked eternal damnation. They are all guilty and, as far as I am concerned, and all should all have been executed after the war.

Becher was probably more than a mid-level murderer.

You call me dishonest. Just proves Mar Shmuel's dictum (Kall haposel...).

[Shmarya]

First, what you said:

Friedlander, in his latest book, states that Kastner had a great influence over who was saved, which, very conveniently, included many of his relatives and friends from his hometown.

Now, what I said:

[First I said you were either mistaken or misrepresenting Friedlander. Then, I wrote:]

BTW, Friedlander only mentions Kasztner 3 times in the entire book. I can't see his source for claiming Kasztner's influence on who the committee chose to be on the train was "considerable," but I will point out that actual historians who have studied specifically Hungarian and Slovakian Jewry during the Holocaust disagree with Friedlander and his source, whatever it is.

If I can find the book locally, I'll be able to see that souce, which, I suspect, is decades old and discredited.

Your response:

You did not say that Friedlander did not have a source. You said that I misrepresented Friedlander. As you now admit, I did not.

1. Friedlander has no source at all, as I noted later.

2. You rip a sentence out of context from Friedlander who is not as anti-Kasztner as your quote would make him seem.

3. You base your hatred of Kasztner on Ben Hecht's smear and on a few short mostly unsourced paragraphs in a 900 page book by Friedlander. That is, to say the least, dishonest.

[Shmarya]

You wrote:

Friedlander, in his latest book, states that Kastner had a great influence over who was saved, which, very conveniently, included many of his relatives and friends from his hometown.

Actually, Friedlander wrote that it is difficult to believe Kasztner did not have greater influence on the composition of the Jews saved on his train.

He cites no proof for this. He cites no sources.

[Noclue]

I relied on my memory. If I made a mistake as to the language Friedlander used, I apologize.

i did not rip Friedlander out of context. I cited him accurately, that Katzner influenced the committee.

I do not hate Katzner. I just believe he failed at his mission and that his failure was due to a fatal flaw in his character.

I hate Becher. I hate all Nazi murderers.

Unlike you, I do not think that Becher was a "gentleman" or a "friend" (even if you used this language comparatively to other Nazis).

Even anna porter, in her comment here, does not defend Becher.

[Shmarya]

i did not rip Friedlander out of context. I cited him accurately, that Katzner influenced the committee.

That is not what Friedlander wrote. It is what you want to believe he wrote.

Even anna porter, in her comment here, does not defend Becher.

What she clearly says is that all available evidence must be weighed.

She does not say Becher acted altruistically. That does not mean that Becher did not save thousands of Jews.

He did it for the money only?

No one can prove or disprove that because no one can get inside another person's mind.

All we have are his actions, which include the rescue of thousands of Jews.

[Noclue]

Any good he did, was done to save his miserable, worthless, life.

You still have not answered, what do you think he was doing as a SS major in russia and Poland/

[Shmarya]

Any good he did, was done to save his miserable, worthless, life.

You still have not answered, what do you think he was doing as a SS major in russia and Poland/

I have answered several times.

But, like anything not painted strongly black and white, you missed it.

Go back and look at what I wrote about a Hamas or Al Aksa MArtyrs Brigade member who secretly works with Israel.

[Noclue]

No. answer what you thought he was doing.

[Shmarya]

You are truly dense.

I think he was doing just what you think he was doing, although I hold out the possibility he did it with less relish than you believe and perhaps saved a few Jews there, as well.

Just like the Hamas terrorist who kills Jews but who also helps the Israelis and saves other Jews in the process.

[Noclue]

If you think he was doing what I think, killing Jews, then congratulations for finally admitting it. With this admission I will let you have the last word (after all, its your blog). I will not comment any more on this post. Have a good day!!!

[Shmarya]

This is a clear example of the difficulty you have with logic and context.

What do you think American spies in the German military were doing? Knitting blankets?

Do you think people who have spied on Arab countries' militaries for Israel have clean hands?

You live in a bizarro black and white world where a person is either all good or all bad – unless he is a haredi rabbi, of course. Those rabbis are allowed a lot of latitude. They can even forbid others to warn Jews about deportations and Auschwitz and still get a free pass from you.

Only non-Revisionist Zionists and Orthodox rabbis get this free pass from you.

Everyone else has to be perfect.

You call yourself noclue. It is a fitting name for you.

[perfidy]

you should only read the book called perfidy and youl see whos slaugtherd whome

Know why the followers of Rabbi Teitlebaum and the other charaidim are taking over? Because while we sit play shoulda-coulda-woulda and spend hours in mental masturbation over what would have happened if if if if if if if and how many Jews would have been saved if if if if if if and when would have been too late to save how many Jews, they are building and learning and moving forward.

They seem to prefer doing what they need to do and leaving historical hypothosis for the afterlife.

Get over it and get on with life.

If you prove that charaidi rabbi in Europe indirectly killed his followers for selfish reasons what would you gain?

NOTHING!

Get over it already.

[Shmarya]

What haredim actually did during the Shoah is important, especially because their versions of history lie about it. At the same time, they are engaged in widespread missionary activity, including missionary activity to Modern Orthodox Jews.

The truth matters.

What haredim actually did during the Shoah is important, especially because their versions of history lie about it. At the same time, they are engaged in widespread missionary activity, including missionary activity to Modern Orthodox Jews.

The truth matters.

Posted by: Shmarya | May 05, 2008 at 07:51 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The truth about what people who are dead did about helping or hurting other people who are now dead? Lets say you prove every charaidi alive then was as evil as Hitler himself - so what? Will it bring back the dead?

What is more important is getting on with life. I knew many survivors who were let down by thier leaders or had the same questions about thier leadership who went on to rebuild thier lives without getting hung up on what could have been done better.

It seems to be a bigger problem for the next generation to get on with life.

Even if (and that is a big IF) there is no truth on the other side, all this hatred doesn't hurt the hated. It just eats away at the hater.

[Jew Boy]

A Great review of Ann Porter's new book can be found at:

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders4_5.htm

[Shmarya]

That "Great review" is written by hard right fanatic with, shall we say, both a checkered history and an unusual ability to pull quotes out of context to 'support' his various thesis.

[Shmarya]

The truth about what people who are dead did about helping or hurting other people who are now dead? Lets say you prove every charaidi alive then was as evil as Hitler himself - so what? Will it bring back the dead?

The point is not that the dead cannot be brought back to life.

The point is that Jews have the right to know what their leaders did. The idea is Jews can hopefully make wiser choices and perhaps, if, God forbid, there is a next time around, more Jews will survive.

The truth about what people who are dead did about helping or hurting other people who are now dead? Lets say you prove every charaidi alive then was as evil as Hitler himself - so what? Will it bring back the dead?

The point is not that the dead cannot be brought back to life.

The point is that Jews have the right to know what their leaders did. The idea is Jews can hopefully make wiser choices and perhaps, if, God forbid, there is a next time around, more Jews will survive.

Posted by: Shmarya | May 06, 2008 at 01:03 AM

It is highly unlikely that the leaders of 1940 will attempt to become our leaders again. The fact remains that alerting Polish Jewery, had the leaders known in 1338 what was coming would not have helped. The British yemach shemom had closed Palestine to Jews and the Americans were no better. Most Polish Jews could not have put together the money for train tickets to Switzerland, even if the Swiss yemach shemom would have let them pass thru.

You and I do not know the reasons why many rabbonim lulled thier followers into a false sense of safety and not all the possible reasons are bad ones.

You weren't there and neither were all the people yelling about this today. Monday morning quarterbacking is always fun but never productive.

[Shmarya]

It is highly unlikely that the leaders of 1940 will attempt to become our leaders again.

I suppose it never occurred to you that others could make the same mistakes.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I think today's so-called leaders are worse than those of the 1940's. The only benefit today's have is historical hindsight, and they often don't even take advantage of that.

It is highly unlikely that the leaders of 1940 will attempt to become our leaders again.

I suppose it never occurred to you that others could make the same mistakes.

Posted by: Shmarya | May 06, 2008 at 08:28 AM

I suppose it never occured to you that it was not a mistake to offer a ray of hope when they had nothing else to offer.

[Shmarya]

I suppose it never occured to you that it was not a mistake to offer a ray of hope when they had nothing else to offer.

Of course, that is false. Leaders like the Satmar Rebbe believed God would protect their communities from Hitler because of the staunch anti-Zionism and anti-modern outlook promoted there.

And, when the going got tough, most of these leaders fled, leaving their flocks behind to die.

Lastly, Satmar and other haredim have led the attacks on Kasztner since his Supreme Court acquittal. They taught generation of haredim that Kasztner failed to warn them that the deportation trains were headed to sure death in Auschwitz.

Here we have proof that the Satmar Rebbe himself did the same thing, the thing his followers have used for years to attack Zionists and Kasztner.

And, remember, the Satmar Rebbe saved himself – not his followers.

Kastner saved thousands of people, only a handful of them his own family.

Frankly I don't give a rat's ass *** about kastner. make your hero or your saint.

It took me a while to figure this out but you are doing it again, painting millions of people with the same brush.

Poilisher yiddin had no where to run. Simple fact. If you want to revise history you can join David irving. This was not entirely the situation in Hungry. Look at the 1944 borders and consider the fact that most Hungarian Jews were killed in the last few months of the war when resistance in the style of the Warsaw ghetto could have save countless lives just by slowing things down by a month or several.

You also seem to forget (or never knew) that the entire contingent of the Wahrmacht occupying Hungry in 1944 was 5,000 men. True the local population was not exactly friendly to the Jews but who is to say how many of those who had not yet done so would have picked up arms for the Germans and how many could have been bought off to at least stay out of it.

The German Army that started killing Jews in Poland at the beginning of the war did not look the same when they started killing Hungarian Jews in 1944.

And, as I mentioned before, I couldn't care less about the OCD problems some bloggers seem to have over kastner.

His guilt or innocence has nothing to do with whether the rebbehs of Poland did the right thing in the 1930's.

BTW, I am still waiting for your reasoning as to why the Jews who survived have so much less hatred for the rabbonim of the time than you do.

And the Satmar Rebbeh was saved, he did ot save himself. You make it sound like he left in 1936 or pulled a Belzer stunt on his followers.

[Shmarya]

Poilisher yiddin had no where to run. Simple fact.

That was largely true in 1939. It was not true in 1935.

Look at the 1944 borders and consider the fact that most Hungarian Jews were killed in the last few months of the war when resistance in the style of the Warsaw ghetto could have save countless lives just by slowing things down by a month or several.

Kasztner's negotiations did slow down deportations and did keep Jews alive.

You also seem to forget (or never knew) that the entire contingent of the Wahrmacht occupying Hungry in 1944 was 5,000 men. True the local population was not exactly friendly to the Jews but who is to say how many of those who had not yet done so would have picked up arms for the Germans and how many could have been bought off to at least stay out of it.

I think you need to read Anna Porter's book. You'll see that Kasztner's coworkers were able to get the Regent to stop deportations, but the German's kidnapped the Regent's son and then instituted an Arrow Cross coup.

Jewish men of fighting age were in labour battalions far from main population centers of Jews and under tight military control from earlier in the war until Auschwitz. Your idea of a Jewish Warsaw ghetto style rebellion was impossible.

TW, I am still waiting for your reasoning as to why the Jews who survived have so much less hatred for the rabbonim of the time than you do.

That would be the survivors you know.

I'd also point out that most survivors blame no one or blame everyone – you also might try researching survivor guilt.

[Shmarya]

And the Satmar Rebbeh was saved, he did ot save himself. You make it sound like he left in 1936 or pulled a Belzer stunt on his followers.

He told his followers they would be safe.

He forbade Zionist emissaries from telling his followers the truth about Auschwitz.

Then the holy Satmar Rebbe went into hiding and was later saved by the Zionist Kasztner.

Most Satmar hasidim went up in smoke.

[Shmarya]

I should add that the Satmar Rebbe refused to testify at Kasztner's trial on Kasztner's behalf.

Why?

The holy Satmar Rebbe said, I was saved by God, not by man.

Of course, testifying would have proved otherwise.

You are so obssessed with hating rabbonim. What favor did they do for you?

From what I understand, both the Haredi rabbis as well as Kastner and the Zionist leadership who knew decided not to warn the Hungarian community of what awaited them. This is where Rudolf Vrba (born as Walter Rosenberg), and his friend come in. Read "I cannot forgive", they escapred from Aushwitz and wrote a detailed report that was delievered to Kastner, Solvakian Jewish leaders, Rabbi Weismandel, and eventually to the Allies.

I've watched hours upon hours of Vrba's testimony and read his writings, and he was of the opinion that the Jews should have been warned so that some kind of a panic would have broken out. Aushwitz operated like a Chicago slaughter house, and in his words, it's a lot harder to hunt deer than to kill sheep. Another words, the ONLY way the Nazis were able to systematically murder millions of Jews is because the Jews were tricked!

It's true, perhaps warning the Jews of Hungary wouldn't have saved that many, but at least it would slow way down the deportation and the whole salughter-house operation. Vrba's point is that throughout the Holocaust, the Jews "voluntarily" boarded the trains, because they overwhelmingly DID NOT IMAGINE in their wildrest dreams what was at the end. If they had known, then the survival, self-preservation instinct would have kicked in and they would have been able to at least slow WAY down the killing machine. How long would it take the Nazis to drag 400,000 Jews to board trains???

OK you could argue then the Nazis would shoot whoever wouldn't go, but at that point, it would become very public, and the idea of the camps was to keep the operation quiet. EVEN if there would have been a panic on the ramp at one of the death camps, it would have slowed the operation WAY down, because the next train wouldn't have been able to unload, and so on.

There's no easy answer, and I can certainly understand if Kastner or the Haredi rabbis really believed "it's too late, nothing can be done to save the 400,000 Jews", then perhpas it's better psycholoigically to allow them to live their last days ignorant of their fate. Vrba's point is that by the time they boarded the train, it was already too late for the most part. And if the masses would have been warned about what was at the end, I think we can all agree that more Jews would have at least passively if not actively resisted with the litte that they had. (Hutning deer vs. leading sheep to salughter).

Why is it that this argument is written off?

[Shmarya]

I can certainly understand if Kastner or the Haredi rabbis really believed "it's too late, nothing can be done to save the 400,000 Jews

That is not what Kasztner believed. Read Anna Porter's Kasztner's Train.

He tried to deal with the Nazis to free large numbers of Jews while realizing that the best he could really hope for was to save a smaller amount through his train and similar acts of "good faith" shown by his Nazi negotiating partners, and by getting the Nazis to slow down or stop deportations as part of the negotiations.

He was successful in this to some degree. There were times when deportations were stopped because of the Kasztner negotiations.

It can easily be argued that those stoppages saved more Jewish lives than any disturbances Vrba wanted.

You also need to realize that almost every Hungarian Jewish man of military age was working in labor battalions far from Budapest and there was not the manpower for any significant rebellion or disturbance.

And, of course, those types of rebellions and the like brought swift and immediate retribution, and that retribution killed far more Jews than any those rebellions saved by delaying deportations.

The difference between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Hungary was that Kasztner, unlike the Jews of Warsaw, had Nazis to negotiate with.

I've always been bothered by the fact that more survivors are non Zionist, in the sense that if we learn nothing else about the Holocaust, we should be able to agree that having our own State with an army is the ONLY chance for a Jew to survive in this world. I would recommend reading "Em ha'banim smeicha" written by Rabbi Techtel, originally a staunchly anti-Zionist who realised that in the end, it was a mistake for Haredi Jews not to embrace Zionism.

We can't help but asking ourselves the "what if" questions, and although hindsite is 20/20, perhaps we can argue that we need to think first and formost about our physical well being, because what's the point of Torah and mitzvot if we're not around to keep them? Many Jewish leaders advised their followers against immigrating to America because of the spiritual emptiness, assimilation, etc but in hindsite, I think that we can say that it was a mistake to not put emphasis on safety, and it's fair to say that from 1880-1914 when 2 million Jewish refugees arrived in America, Europe was already on fire.

And then we have the lesson of how we view ourvelves as Jews living as guests in other cultures. 19th century Orthodox Germans (followers of Samson Rafael Hirsch), saw themselves as 100% German, but perhaps they never asked the question "do the Germans SEE US as 100% German as well"? Only in Israel can we belong 100% as Jews! (All of the challenges of Israel not withstanding).

If someone can explain to me the anti-Zionist spin, please explain, unless we're suicidal, why on earth we would want to subject ourselves to living under a foreign entity that, on a good day, will not have our best interests at stake? I say this even about a Democracy, remembering that Hitler was democratically elected. I would argue that anti-Semitism in America is nill to non-existent, but I have no allusions that it will necessarily stay that way for long, and if things chance, which I hope they won't, American Jews are not well prepared.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Good post, anonymous 5/7/08 9:52 pm. Happy Yom Ha'Atzma'ut.

I too am concerned about the future of American Jews. G-d forbid, who knows what Shmarya's greatgrandchildren will be able to blame on the American Rabbonim of today.

Overlooked in all the anger and yelling is another detail which throws a monkey wrench into the blame-game.

The majority of Polish Jews were dirt poor and had no way of getting out. As an escapee from one of the Brooklyn Ghettos I can assure you that relocating is not cheap. Unlike me, most Polish Jews did not have very good credit ratings and I am sure if you were to search the records of Citibank from the 20s and 30s you will find that the credit applications of most Polish Jews were rejected due to insufficiant credit history (not to mention lack of a social sacurity number and the common practice of using differnet years of birth and alternating between one's parents family names as situations changed). The Germans ym"s kept track of the wallet contents of the Jews sent to the gas chambers and the number of Jews carrying mastercards or amex was well below what one might expect to find in such an advanced society. The financial troubles of the early thirties caused a major drop in real estate values and having bought with little down payment most Jews were turned down for Hut Equity loans.

Those who had the financial means to buy thier way out of Poland and into anywhere were those who stood to lose the most by leaving and were most likely to try to ride things out and 'wait and see' if these troubles would be worse than other such periods in Polish history.

A family man with a houseful of kids and elderly parents could not pick up and leave, not alone and not with his family and also could not leave elderly parents behind. At the turn of the century most Polish families who ended up here did so be first the father/husband borrowing money for one fare and slaving away in a sweatshop until he had the funds to bring the rest of the family. Under the gathering clouds of war this system was unthinkable and the possibility of huge numbers of fatherless/husbandless households in the middle of a war zone might also have contributed to the advice given.

Lastly, missing from consideration in this debate is the human habit of seeking the advice that re-affirms our own inclinations. Meaning,there can be little doubt that just as today radical types in all walks of Judaism tend to find radical leaders within thier own particular sub-group of Orthodoxy (i.e. MO, RZ, chassidesh, yeshivish, etc) while moderates find moderate leaders within thier own particular sub-group, many people who were afraid to leave, felt pressure to stay, or just wanted to stay found rabbonim who told them to stay while many who wanted to leave found rabbonim giving that advice.

Therefore, putting a number on how many Jews who, had they not been advised by rabbonim to stay, would have AND could have is impossible and unwisely deflects attention from those who are to blame for the Holocaust.

Who is to blame for the Holocaust?

The the people who planted and nourished the seeds of anti-semitism that prepared the hearts and minds of the Europeans for the Final Solution to the Jewish Problem ,who planned and ordered the Solution and those who implamented the planned solution.

L'aniyas da'ati, the need of some to blame zionists and others to blame the anti-zionists all stems from the same root of Jewish self-hatred.

The Yidden were trapped and abandoned by the world, and I agree that very little could have been done certainly as late as 1939. The Zionists are making the argument that it isn't possible to continue as a nation (and this is a revolutainoary concept that we ARE a nation), unless we have respect in the eyes of the nations, meaning a language, a flag, an army, a governmnet, etc. and if successful, this plan provides an alternative to a being tortured by the goyim for 2000 years, and this seems so much like "pshita" - it's obvious, Zionism is THE ONLY long term solution. The only argument I can hear against Zionism is a kind of masochistic argument (ie. we like to suffer and get slaughtered by the goyim) Neturay Karta and Satmar will argue that the 3 vowes forbid Jews from rebelling against the nations.

First of all, the non-Jews took a vow upon themselves not to oppress us too much, and even in Europe during the early 30's, wouldn't an objective view of European Jewish history indicate that the non-Jews didn't keep their end of the deal?

What makes Yom Ha'atzmaut so powerful is that we are living in a time when we are a winning nation, the non-Jews look at us and see the strong Jew. In the larger picture, I don't think that the world can accept the Jews as winners.. when Jews are being slaughtered, we'll feel sorry for them, but once we can defend ourselves and win a war when we're attacked (and I believe that Israel does everything possible to avoid war), the non-Jews have a hard time accepting the image of the winning Jew because it's such a non-traditional way to see Jews.

And I get frustrated today when I see a lot of Haredi Jews who simply can't articulate why we absolutely need a state and an army, and it seems to come from the paradigm of the exile Jew, the oppressed mentality that FAILED MISERABLY! How can we still cling onto a paradigm that just didn't work? It seems to me that an objective view of Jewish history will make it obvious that the religious Zionist paradigm is the only paradigme that works.

[Eric Grosser]

I'm sorry that I can't get away from this subject, but something keeps bringing me back, and I did have a few anonymous postings as well.

Verba, perhaps more than anyone, saw first hand for 2 years how Auscwitz operated, and he repeats in all of his testimony that with the exception of one incident when a crematorium was blown up, everything ran smoothley and efficiently as is very "German". He uses the line "it's a lot harder to hunt deer than to kill sheep" as a metaphor for understanding how the Jews perhaps would have acted with more information. He claims that the "self-preservation" instinct would kick in, and he never really witnessed that, because the Jews were tricked into not knowing what was at the end of the train line. And he also uses the line "Jews 'voluntarily' boarded the trains", and this gets a lot of people upset, so he clarifies "they weren't happy about being deported, but they for the most part showed up and followed the orders they were given", and that's how the Nazis managed to murder millions of Jews all over Europe, in a relatively secretaive manner. And the fact that the mass killings were kept quiet is why the Nazis were so successful, because if you murder mass numbers in public view, it's likely to generate sympathy from the outside.

Verba sees the Jundenrats as esentially collaborators with the Nazis, and "negotiating" is just a trick to allow more Jews to be deported, and this makes a lot of sense. After all, what interest do the Nazis have to save Jews? Do we really believe that these monsters have "soft spots" for some Jews? It only makes sense for them to negotiate if they have a lot to gain from it, namely, help from the Jundenrat in deporting Jews to their deaths.

If the conclusion was, "it's too late to save Jews, nothing can be done, better to let them go to their deaths in peace", perhaps an argument can be made, but don't you find it hard to believe that even if they few hundred thousands of JEws in Budapest would have been given VErba's report, a lot more would have tried to hide, fight, resist, etc?

This is a very dark chapter in world history and especially the history of our Jewish people and I agree with earlier postings that we should stop the fingure pointing and move on, nothing will bring these holy victims back to life. But on the other hand, perhaps it's a search for truth, a kind of "machloket l'shem shemayim", so we can learn from the past to rebuild the future.

[Shmarya]

If you don't read the sources, you'll never learn.

Only someone wholly unaware of those sources would write what you have.

[Shmarya]

If the conclusion was, "it's too late to save Jews, nothing can be done, better to let them go to their deaths in peace", perhaps an argument can be made, but don't you find it hard to believe that even if they few hundred thousands of JEws in Budapest would have been given VErba's report, a lot more would have tried to hide, fight, resist, etc?

Why I'm even bothering to write this again, I don't know, but, here goes:

1. Hungarian Jewish men of military age were already in slave labor battalions away from Jewish areas. Hard to form effective resistance without manpower.

2. Kasztner was able to slow and at times stop deportations, which saved lives.

3. His train saved lives.

4. Thousands of Hungarian and Slovakian Jews knew about Auschwitz. But they did not believe the truth.

5. Unsuccessful resistance meant extreme reprisals. More Jews would have been killed.

6. Kasztner saved thousands of lives.

7. During the time you call for "resistance," Raoul Wallenberg was in Budapest saving thousands more. Resistance would have thwarted that rescue.

I could go on. Instead, why don't you actually study the sources?

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

Poor shmarya... had to dig up this piece of garbage whitewashing Kasztner and Ben Gurion. The book offers zero evidnec of the story, and is a clear fabrication, in retaliation for publicizing the truth about Kasztner.

Kasztner knew full and well about the transports, the gas chambers and the crematoria, yet he willfully lied to Hungary's Jews, and told them they were being taken to "Kenyermezo", a place where he claimed they'll get work and better food. His train left Hungary 8 days before deportations started.

It is true that whoever wanted to know could know, and many knew, yet Shmarya the liar claims all of Hungary's jews (mostly secular and anti-Zionist) didn't flee (not that it was so easy) - ONLY BEACAUSE THEY LISTENED TO THE BELZER AND SATMARER! These secular jews hated rabbis almost as much as Shmarya does, yet the only reason they stayed, says Shmarya, is because they listened to the rabbis!

Hey Shumkya, when's the last time you heard a left-winger encourage people to get arms, training and join the militia?

You're being very dishonest Shmarya. You're only right about #1 and #4, and even that's not exactly so.

[Shmarya]

So Joe Izrael shows up 10 days after the post to sneak in his lies.

1. The book offers zero evidnec of the story, and is a clear fabrication, in retaliation for publicizing the truth about Kasztner.

The book actually has LOTS of evidence, some of it the evidence you have refused to look at for years.

2. It is true that whoever wanted to know could know, and many knew, yet Shmarya the liar claims all of Hungary's jews (mostly secular and anti-Zionist) didn't flee (not that it was so easy) - ONLY BEACAUSE THEY LISTENED TO THE BELZER AND SATMARER! These secular jews hated rabbis almost as much as Shmarya does, yet the only reason they stayed, says Shmarya, is because they listened to the rabbis!

Of course, I say nothing of the sort.

3. You're being very dishonest Shmarya. You're only right about #1 and #4, and even that's not exactly so.

Let's see what Joe Izrael says is NOT true. Here's my list. 2, 3, 5, 6 & 7 are all FALSE according to Joe:

1. Hungarian Jewish men of military age were already in slave labor battalions away from Jewish areas. Hard to form effective resistance without manpower.

2. Kasztner was able to slow and at times stop deportations, which saved lives.

3. His train saved lives.

4. Thousands of Hungarian and Slovakian Jews knew about Auschwitz. But they did not believe the truth.

5. Unsuccessful resistance meant extreme reprisals. More Jews would have been killed.

6. Kasztner saved thousands of lives.

7. During the time you call for "resistance," Raoul Wallenberg was in Budapest saving thousands more. Resistance would have thwarted that rescue.

I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of WW2 history can see that Joe Izrael has no idea what he's talking about.

And that is really the haredi norm.

[Eric Grosser]

I think that it's unfair to pass a moral judgement on ANYONE during the darkest chapter in our history, because as we learn in Prikei Avot, you can't judge another person until you're in his shoes, and thank G-d, we're not in their shoes. There were several options available, and no one should be criticized for fleeing Europe trying to save their own lives.

I repeat, and I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, the one thing about Kastner I cannot understand is why he felt the need to defend SS officer Becher. EVEN IF he was a so called "good Nazi", there's really no such thing. I'm also very suspicious of Kurt Gertstein who was also an SS officer who was terrified by what he saw in the camps and tried to warn foreign officials. In the end, his job was to transfer Cyclone B to Aushwitz, and on one occasion, he supposedly burried it under the ground. Very suspicious, he committed suicide in 1950 I believe. SS officers had a lot of resources available, and if they were really appauled by what they saw, couldn't they have fled? I'm sorry but I don't buy a lot of the testimony of the "good SS officers who were just trying to help"

[Shmarya]

What a good way to ensure non-Jews caught up in evil regimes don't risk their lives to help Jews! We'll just declare that we "just don't buy" any testimony to their actions taken to help Jews.

It's quite brilliant of you, really.

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

Poor Shmarya... alzheimers' cath\ching up with the bozo quite fast.

1st, I don't read your blog every day. What's the time I came has to do with anything?

2nd. Give me ONE reliable source she quotes on what you claim (that 2 people came personally to the satmarer and told him everything?)

3rd. you have again and again ipso-facto claimed that the belzer and satmarer told their congregants not to flee even though they knew exactly what was going on. You accusation is clearly NOT that they didn't have enough foresight or blinded by their ideology - you have made the point that they knowingly sent their congregants to death. I don;t care how much you deny it, you know that you have said these things.

#1. I told this is partially true. But many men did stay behind, for various reasons & condidtions. I, personally, never made the claim they coud have or should have an organized uprise. Rather, they could have attempted to escape (at their lives' peril, for the most) and B., that they were no les guilty -if not more- of rejecting Zionism. Although the ruling Lanour Zionist made sure no one who dared disagree with their socio-bl\olshevik agenda got into Palestine. But that's another song)

2. This is a lie, plain and simple. Give me one example when Kasztner saved one Jew or slowed one wagon ar delayed it by one minute? He was busy fressing ham and pork chops with Eichmann, drinking beer with Becher and smoking cigars with Krumey. His famous train left 8 days before deportations stopped. Had his buddies Ben-Gurion, Sharet, Kollek, Avriel et al have Brand arrested (BTW, if he was such a hero, how come HE wasn't sent to Palestine?) the Allies would have probably pressured Hungary much earlier (it is practically unthinkable they'd have really accepted the Eichmann proposal, but OTOH BG and his band did everything not to pressure the Allies into action. These are established facts even your darling Bauer can't deny).

#3. See above. Purposefully left for the end, so all Jews be dead and unable to testify against him. Yes, he saved those in order to sacrify the others and save his and his friends' skins with that train.

#4. I said I agree with that. How is that the satmarer and belzer's fault?

#5. How is that better than being starved and gassed? Is it not worth risking their lives for? Are you sure they all made this cheshbon B/F? Do you know how many German troops there were in Hungary? Very few. The deportations were carried out by Hungarians. And western Romania was relatively safe at most times.

#6. Repeat it a 1000 times, it will become a truth. Nice try, kiddo.

#7. Why is Wallenberg being in BP an obstacle from running away? Freudiger saved about 800 Jews with his personal wealth - without smoking cigars with Eichmann and having access to telephone. (and yes, he ran away and didn't explicitly warn the others. Kasztner & Co. are still worse.

Becher and Krumey were bona fide Nazi war criminals. Becher oversaw the stripping of bodies and classification and shipment of goods, including pulling out gold teeth. Krumey was in charge of transports, if memory serves. In fact, he was tried and convicted in the 2nd Nurnberg trials, after being saved by Maran Harav Hakadosh Kasztner in the 1st Nurnberg trials. The reasons for him saving his good friends are probably because he didn't want them to spill the beans about him and splitting a large part of the booty with them.

Shmarya knows all this, yet choses to deliberately, knowingly and purposely lying about it.

See what a chochmeh he comes up with in his response. (probably something to the effect that Becher never existed and satmar invented him. way to go, Shmarya!)

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

PS Brand **NOT** arrested. Sorry.

[Shmarya]

1st, I don't read your blog every day. What's the time I came has to do with anything?

Because you habitually come in days or even weeks after a post and leave comments disputing the facts presented by me or other commenters, and you do so in an abusive manner.

Further, you are most always wrong, and are unable to document your assertions.

In the midwest, when a kid hung out by the opposing goal and didn't play offense or defense, just waited for a chance to take a shot but wasn't otherwise part of the game, he was known as a "suckhole." That would be you.

2nd. Give me ONE reliable source she quotes on what you claim (that 2 people came personally to the satmarer and told him everything?)

3rd. you have again and again ipso-facto claimed that the belzer and satmarer told their congregants not to flee even though they knew exactly what was going on. You accusation is clearly NOT that they didn't have enough foresight or blinded by their ideology - you have made the point that they knowingly sent their congregants to death. I don;t care how much you deny it, you know that you have said these things.

She has a singed and notarized affidavit.

She also has dozens of sources for other things in several languages, including Hungarian – which, by the way, she speaks.

As for the Belzer and Satmar Rebbes, the Belzer Rebbe KNEW about Auschwitz. He told his followers in Romania not to worry, all would be well. Then he ran away to Israel with his brother and left his followers to die. He did not warn them. He did not tell them to try to flee.

The Satmar Rebbe knew, as well. He also did not warn his followers.

This is a lie, plain and simple. Give me one example when Kasztner saved one Jew or slowed one wagon ar delayed it by one minute? He was busy fressing ham and pork chops with Eichmann, drinking beer with Becher and smoking cigars with Krumey. His famous train left 8 days before deportations stopped.

I see that you are a not just a bigot – you're also a shoteh.

The train did not leave 8 days before deportations stopped.

No one disputes that Kasztner saved at least 1600 people.

Had his buddies Ben-Gurion, Sharet, Kollek, Avriel et al have Brand arrested (BTW, if he was such a hero, how come HE wasn't sent to Palestine?)

Kasztner and Brand were friends. Eichmann chose Brand. It was Eichmann's choice.

[Ben Gurion] and his band did everything not to pressure the Allies into action

Absolutely false. What a disgusting person you are.

There are dozens of sources showing that Ben Gurion and the Jewish Agency tried to get the Allies to act.

See above. Purposefully left for the end, so all Jews be dead and unable to testify against him. Yes, he saved those in order to sacrify the others and save his and his friends' skins with that train.

Absolutely false. There are reams of evidence proving you wrong. Too bad your too much of a bigot and a shoteh to read it.

I said I agree [that many Hungarian and Slovakian Jews knew about Auschwitz but refused to believe the reports they heard]. How is that the satmarer and belzer's fault?

YOU blamed Kasztner for not warning Jews about Auschwitz. Following what passes for your logic, why would this be Kasztner's fault?

How is that better than being starved and gassed? Is [rebelling] not worth risking their lives for?

The Germans retaliated against ALL Jews, not simply against those who rebelled.

An act of rebellion by only one or two Jews caused the deaths of dozens.

Of course, there were other reasons not to rebel, including the fact that most men of fighting age were away in forced labor battalions, as I noted several times previously.

Why is Wallenberg being in BP an obstacle from running away? Freudiger saved about 800 Jews with his personal wealth - without smoking cigars with Eichmann and having access to telephone. (and yes, he ran away and didn't explicitly warn the others. Kasztner & Co. are still worse.

"Run away"? What insane world are you living in? How could they "run away"?

Freudiger BOUGHT his freedom from the SS. And he only saved Orthodox Jews – his family, his friends, rabbis.

But in your mind, Kasztner – who saved reliigious and secular, Zionist and non-Zionist, old, and young, rich and poor – Kasztenr is the devil.

Prick.

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

This guy is riding on a crowded bus. All of a sudden he feels someone's hand in his pocket, trying to pick his wallet. He grabs the man's hand and turns to him "watcha doin, ya ganef!?" The man looks him straight in the eye and says: "it's not my hand".

When you can come up with something bwetter than "bigot", "suckhole" and "shoteh" and support you lies with facts, we can argue.

100's if not 1000's of people testid\fied against Kaszner and his actions. It was BG's OFFICIAL and AVOWED and PUBLICLY DECLARED policy NOT to rescue at all, only to focus on the State and grabbing its power. Read Tom Segev, chiloni leftist's book. The relevant passages are in chapters 3 & 4, pp68 - 96. I could direct you to at least six other books, but since for you everything written by someone not strictly adhering to the establishment's propaganda is a lie and conspiracy theory.

Kasztner's train left June 30th, deportations stopped 8th (or 9th). You will see this information in Prter's book itself.

Freudiger BOUGHT his freedom with HIS OWN money, saved many people, secular, young, old, families, liar, and after his money was gone BOUGHT his escape too. "Escape" means fron the BP ghetto, afterwards he was on his own, unlike Uncle Kasztner, who partied with the SS high command as a free man from the day Germans set foot in Hungary.

""Run away"? What insane world are you living in? How could they "run away"? "- ike the few people who did succeed in fleeing. Some made it, others didn't.

You still didn't answer why BG & co purposely gave Brand to the British and collaborated with the to silence him? And why did BG assasinate Kasztner and why did Kasztner exonerate Krumey and Becher, who were bona fide Nazi criminals.

BTW - Hecht, Vrba, Greenwald and many others accused Kasztner during his lifetime. Why did Porter wait so long? Conveniently after all implicated are gone, (Wetzler, Vrba, Kasztner, Hecht, Brand, the judges of the trial etc) she miraculously pulls thi rabbit out of the hat. But why would this raise the suspicions of a skeptic rationalist of your caliber, eh Smaryah?

As for the Satmarer and Blezer: they probably did know as much as everyone else. I have never, ever contested the fact that a) they gravely erred and b) as rabbis they should be held to much higher responsibility. In fact I made this point a few times before, but in your typically Stalinist way ignore this. They certainly should have had the insight that Romania and Hungary could well be invaded.

Exact quote from my previous comment: "I, personally, never made the claim they coud have or should have an organized uprise." Your response: "[picking only this quote]: How is that better than being starved and gassed? Is [rebelling] not worth risking their lives for?"

The Germans retaliated against ALL Jews, not simply against those who rebelled.

An act of rebellion by only one or two Jews caused the deaths of dozens.

Of course, there were other reasons not to rebel, including the fact that most men of fighting age were away in forced labor battalions, as I noted several times previously."

And still, how is being gassed better than this? Besides, there were very few German troops in Hungary, mostly busy with the Russians and looting Hungary. The Arrow Cross (who later became the communits party, BTW) were much less through.

Many Jews knew there was trouble. They heard of the camps, could know. But no one knew for sure what was going on, what comes next, and what they could do (if at all). You blame all of their deaths on the Belzer and Satmarer.
But the great difference is this: Kasztner had exact knowledge of what was going on, when, where and how. He knew of the transports beforehand. He had means that no one lese had. The Satmarer gave out thousands of false Hungarian (and or) Romanian birth certificates to refugees from poland and Galicia (B/F the invasion, when this was still possible) this means that he -yes, naively and perhaps with self delusion- thought it would be better there. At the time it was. Kasztner, who had a phone, a car, an office, secretary, money, ties with the outside world, licked his master's hand and purposely, knowingly misled them. He told them to board the trains to a better place. He knew full and well that that place didn't exists. All those people were gassed and cremated. He knew it, yet didn't warn them. He knew that they were close to the Romanian border, which was relatively safe at the time. No Greman troops were in that area, in fact very few were in Hungary at all. the Klausenburger Ghetto, where his parents were, was guarded by 20 Arrow cross. You know this, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. And you know well why.

[Shmarya]

You are so ill informed that it is truly painful to read what you write.

Kastner's train was detoured to a holding facility in Bergen Belsen. One group of Kastner's people were released relatively quickly. The second group was there for months.

Ben Gurion did not have a "stated policy" not to rescue.

What you write is insane.

Anyone else reading this should read Anna Porter's book, Kasztner's Train.

You should also keep in mind that literally dozens of trained historians, including Jews who speak Slovakian and have seen archive data, support Kasztner.

As for you, Joe, shoteh may be too kind a term.

Wow, that was factual!

"You should also keep in mind that literally dozens of trained historians, including Jews who speak Slovakian and have seen archive data, support Kasztner." I know that. And many more denounce him. Especially those who are not part and parcel of mapam and mapai/avodah "labour", like Bauer.

"Anyone else reading this should read Anna Porter's book, Kasztner's Train." And decide on it alone, conveniently ignoring a good dozen books or more dealing with it and the broader context & history. BTW why did Kasztner's good friend Brand testify against him? And why couldn't Kasztner arrange a good job, let alone an interview with Sharet that he denied him?

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