Rabbi Aviner: Women Must Not Wear Pajamas, Even If Alone In The Dark

In another bizarre ruling from an Orthodox rabbi, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, the rabbi of Beit El and a leader of National Religious rabbis, ruled that a woman…

…may never wear pants, even if alone, if if those pants are pajamas.

Ynet reports:

…Aviner, Beit El's rabbi and one of Religious Zionism's most prominent leaders, was asked in a cellular Q&A session published in the "Small World" bulletin, "When a girl goes to relieve herself at night, is she allowed to say the 'Asher Yatzar' ('he who formed') prayer while wearing a short-sleeved shirt and trousers?"

The rabbi replied that it is permitted to say the prayer in such a case, but added that "in general, a woman must always wear modest clothes even when she is alone and in the dark, because the Holy one blessed be he is everywhere. And yes, trousers are a self-prohibition even when a woman is alone."

Meanwhile, Rabbi Israel Rosen, head of the Tsomet Institute, has claimed an article published in synagogues over the weekend that "too much modesty leads women to the opposite direction, from abstinence to immorality."

According to the rabbi, this is "an axiom which applies to people who have experienced leaps forward and sharp transitions in their religious conduct throughout their lives."

Rabbi Rosen also slammed the haredi norm to omit names of women from newspapers and from invitations, comparing it to the veil phenomenon in Muslim countries.

"For so-called modesty reasons, the woman is only presented as 'his wife', nameless, veiled, and my heart twitches," he wrote in a weekly column published in synagogues over the weekend. "Is there no psychological connection between the hypocrisy of concealing the name and hiding the face under the 'Taliban-style' veil?"

Comments

[rabbidw]

Actually, I agree. Woman should not wear Pyjamas. They should sleep in the nude, especially when sleeping with their husbands.

[formelly frum]

"The rabbi replied that it is permitted to say the prayer in such a case, but added that "in general, a woman must always wear modest clothes even when she is alone and in the dark, because the Holy one blessed be he is everywhere. And yes, trousers are a self-prohibition even when a woman is alone."

The next question to the rabbi should be, if the above is true how can a woman go to the mikva and or take a shower or bath, the Holy one blessed be he is everywhere.

Of course the simple answer is water is to god as lead is to superman. For those who don't know Lead is also the only known substance that Superman cannot see through with his x-ray vision.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Thought you may be interested:

Rabbis Belsky, Miller and Heinemann on Chabad:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_IC1swogp6gc/SBtd9vrcyuI/AAAAAAAABXI/jvC5M-7NZZ8/s1600-h/scan0007.JPG

The Music ban and links to 2 letters from Belsky:
http://matzav.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=181&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=507&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=2222&hn=matzav&he=.com

[David]

Obviously, women should never shower, bathe, or change clothes, and should only go to the bathroom when absolutely, positively necessary, as any of these things might require the uncovering of their Naughty Bits before the Holy One Blessed is He. And we all know how He gets...

[MalachHamovies]

Shmayra,

The link to ynet isn't working.

with this rabbis argument that god is everywhere and therefore no pajamas allowed, i have a secret for you rabbi. God is truly everywhere including inside your pants too so maybe you should make sure you wipe yourself well before u leave from your dumping site.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

In my daughter's gymnastics class at the local JCC in Chicago, some of the girls wear trouser pajamas to work out. Sometimes you will even see girls around 11-17 y.o. wearing PJs under their skirts.

I never gave it a thought until now.

It takes a sick mind to sexualize everything. Thanks rabbis!

[Dr Fred]

Of course.We never had pyjamas in the the old country. Come to think of it, we didn't have bathrooms or toilet paper either.Therefore and henceforth, all these temptations are hereby banned.

[TheAdlerian]

This kind of micromanagement is a psychological control technique to lord over people. Every single aspect of your life is managed and programed like a robot. Thus, you go through your life never actually thinking about or exploring your existence. Meanwhile, the manager is just as much a prisoner of his own sinister mentality.

People who buy in, or are forced in, to such a life could be said to be not actually alive.

Sad.

[Judaisme]

Quel abruti ce Aviner :)

[Sephardic-Male]

more stupidity from the mentally ill labeled as rabbis.

[maya]

I have also been wondering about this habit of omitting the names of women from invitations...thank you for raising this issue. Since when has a woman's name been an issue of tzniut? Are we the children of Abraham and partner?

[R]

Funny i know people who only wear nighties and won't let their kids wear pyjamas.
As far as i have noticed, it's much more tzniut to wear pyjamas in bed because a nightie will just ride up anyway.
Also how come a woman may make a bracha in the mikvah while starkers?
G-d created us and our bodies, i do not think tzniut rules were made for G-d.
I think this Rabbi Aviner is a pervert and obviously has wet dreams of women in trousers.

[without me]

as always,aviner says crap.as always,tzioni rabbis with idiot ideas.
no surprise at all

[rabbidw]

Again, I like Aviner, but he is too lenient. He is limitinf his ruling to Pyjamas. I think it should be extended to all panties. Women should go commando, because underwear is like pants, they havetwo legs. They are also a davar chadash, and should be banned on that account. Also, tampons should be banned as they are definitely most untzniusdik.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Aviner thinks he is better than JB Soloveitchik, who permitted women to wear pants tailored for them.

[Isa]

Lets assume my name is 'John Doe' and my wife's name is 'Joanna Doe'

One time I belonged to a MO shul and they called my wife Mrs John Doe, Well! I barked at them and said her name was Mrs. Joanna Doe

[Yochanan Lavie]

Isa: The Orthodox world is going "barking" mad.

[emeslyaakov]

There are two halachic opinions today about pants for women.

One opinion holds that pants have become standard female attire in various places, and in those places, women may wear pants. There are variations on this, defining the style, tightness, etc of the pants, but this is bottom line.

The other opinion holds that pants for women continue to be in the category of men's clothing and are not permitted for a woman at all. This may be because it is thought that pants are not a standard garment for women or it may be because a change in style or a new style which is based either on avoda zara (not relevant to this case) or immodesty (which arguably is relevant here) can never be accepted.

Someone who accepts the first opinion holds that women are allowed to wear pants in all situations, including both sleep-wear and Synogogue-wear.

Someone who accepts the second opinion forbids the wearing of pants in almost all situations, whether or not someone else is there, and whatever the gender of the other people there.

Thus, not only would pants be forbidden in a public situation with men present, they would be forbidden for a women's exercise group and they would be forbidden for sleep wear.

Those who follow the second opinion do have one area of possible leniency. It is permissible to wear the garments of the opposite gender "l'tsorech" (a case of need). I will not attempt to define what the case of need is, but will give one example. One of the major Aguda Hareidi American Roshei Yeshivah in the 1950's or 60's allowed girls to wear ski pants when going skiing. This was at a time when no one was making the argument that pants were women's clothes, so obviously he was poskening based on need. In the actual case, they wore skirts on top of their pants, but the Rosh Yeshiva did not tell them to. (OK it was Rav Aharon Kotler z'l as reported to me by the wife of one of the highest people in the Aguda of America at the time I heard the story (early 70's)).

Once again, the commenters on this blog are speaking about halachic issues about which they do not know the basic facts.

You do not have to be orthodox Jews, but if you wish to be orthodox Jews, it does not pay to make fun of basic orthodox Jewish texts such as the Shulchan Aruch and the Mishnah B'rurah both of which which in the very beginning emphasize the need for tsnius (modesty) even when no one is there (including telling you to get dressed under the covers - most probably they slept naked under those covers). Yes G-d can peak under your covers and can see everywhere, but modesty as a way of life is emphasized throughout Judaism. There are places where it is permissible to be without clothes such as the bath, the shower and the Mikvah. The Mishnah Berura even says that men swimming should not cover their private parts because it looks as if they are ashamed of their Brit Mila. But the overall general principal is modesty. The Gemora and the codes even emphasize this modesty when using the toilet.

So you don't need to be an orthodox Jew and you can choose to make fun of orthodox Judaism, but understand that that is what you are doing. And even if one can disagree with Aviner about pajama pants for girls, or in many other things also, that does not mean that his answer here is not a part of normative Judaism.

[Shmarya]

There are two halachic opinions today about pants for women.

One opinion holds that pants have become standard female attire in various places, and in those places, women may wear pants. There are variations on this, defining the style, tightness, etc of the pants, but this is bottom line.

The other opinion holds that pants for women continue to be in the category of men's clothing and are not permitted for a woman at all. …

Almost, but not quite, correct.

Even in group two, a woman can wear long underwear, pajamas, etc., as long as she is not in public and is not seen by men.

Why?

Because pajams, long underwear and the like are not pants meant to be worn in public – they have the status of panties, bras, etc.

Do you really think it is forbidden for a woman to wear panties when alone in bed? Must she be clothed in a long nightgown?

Of course not.

As for making fun of Orthodox Judaism, we don't really need to do that – your rabbis do it every day, in public, for all to see.

[Yochanan Lavie]

sheker l'yaakov: it is because of your rabbis that I am not Orthodox anymore.

[Ahavah]

Pants were actually women's clothing long before they were men's clothes. Women in the both the far and near east wore trousers when men were still wearing long robes exclusively - if any orthodox leaders had studied any ancient art or architecture, they would have known this.

I have a hi-res scan of a nice painting showing just this on my webpage, near the bottom of the right hand column where it says "Shopping." The painting's origin is Persia, but there are also many nice ones available from India, China, and Korea which show basically the same thing starting in about the same time periods. All during the Ottoman empire, also, it was standard for women to wear them - as plenty of artwork also shows. Jewish women living in the Persian and Muslim lands would have dressed no differently, just like European Jewish women dressed like other ordinary European women until the Cheredi movement came along.

Women are depicted on vases, frescoes, paintings, wood carvings, sculpture and embroidery wearing trousers from about 800 BCE onwards in the far and near east. European men started wearing them in the mid 1700s. That means trousers have been women's clothes for almost 3000 years and men's clothes for only about 250 or so. Guess who's cross dressing, then?

Eastern women were forbidden to wear pants by the Pope when they immigrated to Europe, they were forced to dress like European women. Since when do we let the Pope decide Torah? These Rabbis are ignorant of history and that's why they make these insane rulings. Trousers were developed for women as women's clothes to cut down on rapes of girls working out in the fields (and elsewhere), among other reasons. Men do not and have never needed any cloth between their legs. You can find this information in any fashion and design history textbook (not that a Rabbi would ever read one, of course).

Trousers are women's clothing, appropriated by men. If you want to be more "Torah" authentic, then go back to wearing long robes. There are plenty of drawings of maimonides, etc., for you to use as a template.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ahavah: Also, skirts and kilts were traditionally men's clothing in most ancient cultures. In some parts of the world, they still are. (Even modern Scots occasionally wear kilts). But since when has history, science, or logic ever swayed the fanatical fringe of any religion? (Moderate relgious, include some, but decreasingly fewer MO rabbis, are interested in evidence).

You guys are all out of your minds with your hatred of every rabbi who ever lived.

Rabbi Avinar, with whom I disagree on many topics including this one was asked a qustion and he answered it the way he believes it should be answered.

No one forced anyone to ask Rabbi Avinar anything and he did not call up any of us and tell us to follow his opinion.

You all need to take chill-pills and start living by a rule the Catholics should have adopted years ago: IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION DON'T HAVE ONE!

If you are against charaidism don't follow it. What the hell is it your business if others wish to follow it? You get your jollies knowing what kind of PJ's in which other men's wives are sleeping?

You should be too busy dreaming about your own wife's body to worry about anyone else's wife. Or would dreaming about your wife's body be more of a nightmare?

What a bunch of sex-starved maniacs!

(No, I do not mean Rabbi Avinar and his charaidim. I mean you poor shmucks who have nothing else to worry about than the pajama styles of Bait Shemesh Charaidim.)

[Yochanan Lavie]

Emotional, hyperbolic rhetoric does not make for a convincing argument.

I don't hate every rabbi that ever lived. I couldn't care less about someone else's pajama styles.

What I care about is that there are no options for modern traditional people. Reform and Reconstruction are wholly owned subsidiaries of the democratic party. Conservative is an incoherent mess. And orthodoxy has been taken over by hateful bigots, and is backed up by the power of the only Jewish country in existence, where the largest Jewish community (probably will be the majority of Jewish people soon) resides.

[Ahavah]

Anon 12:05

It's our business because you make it our business, by forcing your standards on us when people want to convert or make aliyah. When you quit shoving your stringencies down everyone's throats, then we'll ignore you and you can go on inbreeding until you're all drooling idiots and can't be a nuisance anymore.

[rabbidw]

The original posuk says that it is forbidden for a woman to wear kli gever, as opposed to a man, who is forbidden to wear a woman's dress. Kli gever actually refers to bearing arms, weapons. The implication to me is crystal clear. Woman and men are not supposed to attempt to pass as members of the opposite sex. it has nothing to do with women wearing slacks, let alone with pyjamas. It has to do with passing as a member of the opposite sex. See Jack Lemon and Tony Cortis in Billy Wilder's SOME LIKE IT HOT.

Rabbi Aviner: Women Must Not Wear Pajamas, Even If Alone In The Dark

The Rav is right! Naked is much, much better - especially if she's hot!

See Jack Lemon and Tony Cortis in Billy Wilder's SOME LIKE IT HOT.

But they did that to save their lives - gangsters were trying to kill them. So, it was "l'tsorech".

Same with Peter Scolari and Tom Hanks in "Bosom Buddies" - they couldn't find anywhere that they could afford to live, except for the all women's apartment building.

The grey area though would be the Jack Tripper character on "Three's Company." He was always dressed like a man - so cross dressing wasn't an issue, but he had to tell the landlord that he was gay in order to share his apartment with the girls.

I'm glad that Monty Python and The Kids in the Hall weren't Jewish - so many of their funniest skits used cross dressing.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'm glad that Monty Python and The Kids in the Hall weren't Jewish - so many of their funniest skits used cross dressing.

I've always thought RCA's Basil Herring sounds like a Monty Python character portrayed by John Cleese.

Emotional, hyperbolic rhetoric does not make for a convincing argument.

I don't hate every rabbi that ever lived. I couldn't care less about someone else's pajama styles.

What I care about is that there are no options for modern traditional people. Reform and Reconstruction are wholly owned subsidiaries of the democratic party. Conservative is an incoherent mess. And orthodoxy has been taken over by hateful bigots, and is backed up by the power of the only Jewish country in existence, where the largest Jewish community (probably will be the majority of Jewish people soon) resides.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | May 04, 2008 at 12:52 PM

So go start your own 'branch', or more accuratly brand, of Judaism and let those who wish to follow you do so and let Rabbi Avinar's followers follow him in peace.

Why do you all feel so threatened by people wiho are more radical in thier practice of Judaism??

Anon 12:05

It's our business because you make it our business, by forcing your standards on us when people want to convert or make aliyah.

Who's forcing anyone to do anything? Follow your own Rabbi just as the Charaidim follow thiers. If your complaint should be directed against any Rabbis it should be directed against the Modern Orthodox and Religous Zionist Rabbis. They have done nothing about stopping the march of the charaidim. Perhaps they are closet-charaidim themselves.

The MO and RZ have lost all thier power EY. Why have they surrendered?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When you quit shoving your stringencies down everyone's throats, then we'll ignore you and you can go on inbreeding until you're all drooling idiots and can't be a nuisance anymore.

Hateful crap like that does nothing but make you sound like a loser over-flowing with hateful crap. Try keeping the conversation civil and someone might pay attention to you one day.

For all the whining about the charaidim and thier backwards ways they have built huge and still growing communities and institutions without the help of us 'advanced' Modern Orthodox.

We should be honestly assessing what they are doing right and apply it to our communities and institutions while we still can. if not, the day will come when we will have no choice but to play second-fiddle to them in every facet of Jewish communal life just as we do now in many areas of Jewish life.

How many times do you see a charaidi mohel at a MO bris? Charaidi teachers in MO day schools?

Where are our shochtim, mohalim, mechanchim, rabbonim, kashrus mashgichim, sofrai STaM, even chazonim (may G-d save us all from ever having to endure such torture) in MO shuls are often chassidish today!

What percentage of YU musmoshim today are Black Hat? What percentage of Yound Israel rabbonim are Black Hat?

They did not fight us and win. We surrendered years ago. Go back and complain about our leaders, not thier's. Thier's left behind bigger and stronger communities than they found. Look at how many of ours did the opposite.

Posted by: Ahavah | May 04, 2008 at 04:48 PM

[Shmarya]

For all the whining about the charaidim and thier backwards ways they
have built huge and still growing communities and institutions without
the help of us 'advanced' Modern Orthodox.

Simply wrong.

Haredim take millions of dollars in donations every year from Modern Orthodox Jews.

And then we have large scale haredi tax and welfare fraud.

Remove those things and haredism collapses.

[Shmarya]

I'd also add that Rabbi Hershel Schachter is very much responsible for the philo-haredism that has ruined Modern Orthodoxy.

For all the whining about the charaidim and thier backwards ways they
have built huge and still growing communities and institutions without
the help of us 'advanced' Modern Orthodox.

Simply wrong.

Haredim take millions of dollars in donations every year from Modern Orthodox Jews.

SO WHY ARE WE DONATING??? IF WE ARE KEEPING THEM ALIVE IT IS OUR OWN FAULT!

And then we have large scale haredi tax and welfare fraud.

WELL PUBLICIZED SCANDALS DOES NOT 'LARGE SCALE ....... FRAUD'.

Remove those things and haredism collapses.

Posted by: Shmarya | May 05, 2008 at 07:37 AM

You are dreaming. They have already taken over and we cannot survive without them. remove anything you want and someone will step in to support the charaidi system. Our lot was cast the day the first MO Rabbi decided success as a shul was to be judged by an increase in paid-up memberships and not by a decrease in chillul shabbat and that preaching support for the JNF was easier than safer than preaching support for the local day school.

With Day Schools paying so little only kiruv fanatics would take the jobs, who do you think took the jobs?

We can complain all we want about the charaidim running the show but the facts remain: We left the door open for them. Why would any MO child dream of growing up to be a MO Rabbi when he knows damn well how much respect the adults in his world have for the Rabbi? Just look around this blog - Any time a any Rabbi says anything people don't want him to say he is vilified.

If MO Judaism does wither and die the voice that says kaddish over it will certainly have a charaidi accent.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have always maintained that MO should train their own Jewish professionals and declare indepedence over chareidism. They don't have the beirztim for it because of Fiddler on the Roof nostalgia, and because they want to become rich Ortho-yuppies by becoming doctors, lawyers, etc. (Nothing inherently wrong with that, but then you are reliant on people who disdain you fo religious services). I have also maintained that Yu and Touro (which used to be partly MO) are lost causes.

Meanwhile, thousands of modern traditional Jews are disenchanted and disenfranchised. Chumrot are being shoved down their throats, and their kids are being taught to be plain-clothes chareidim. Yes, MO has itself to blame for that. But it is not too late to remedy that.

Chovevei Torah, and the Metitva for Traditional Judaism (MO in philosophy and praxis, despite being founded by ex-Conservatives) are rays of hope. I would rather support them than those who would infiltrate MO institutions and chareidize them.

Well, at least we can agree that MOism is to blame for its own sad state of affairs but I still do not see where anything is being shoved down anyone's throat.

If one has a Rabbi one follos and is confident in one's beliefs and ways no one can shove anything down your throat.

Anyone who lets others dictate to them standards with which they disagree they have only tthemselves to blame.

You ask Rabbi Avinar a question you will get Rabbi Avinar's opinion. next time ask Rabbi (Avi) Weiss or Rabbi (Shlomo) Riskin and you will get Rabbi Weiss's or Rabbi Riskins opinion.

And if you are upset that the MO/RZ movements in EY are powerless blame the limp-wristed Mizrachi Party which accepts the Ministry of Transportation as payment for supporting a government instead of demanding the Ministry of Religion.

[alternative child care]

The reason they need to have the clothing specific for little girls is so that chas v'cholilo the Rebbe shouldn't inadvertantly abuse a little girl when he was trying to abuse a little boy.

[Ahavah]

"For all the whining about the charaidim and thier backwards ways they have built huge and still growing communities and institutions without the help of us 'advanced' Modern Orthodox."

Bologna - they did it with my charitable donations and my tax dollars.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ahavah: Is that bologna Rubashkin, or International Glatt?

"For all the whining about the charaidim and thier backwards ways they have built huge and still growing communities and institutions without the help of us 'advanced' Modern Orthodox."

Bologna - they did it with my charitable donations and my tax dollars.

Posted by: Ahavah | May 05, 2008 at 02:32 PM

YOUR charitable donations? And over which doorway of Lakewood can I find your name?

Your charitable donations and your tax dollars are not what has caused the MO/Charaidi ratio to shift so far in favor of the Charaidm in the last thirty years.

The MO high schools that still have students have become the farm-clubs of Charaidi post-high school and kollel institutions. In NJ, MAYHS (Central NJ) is going under while the newest Chofetz Chaim branch two towns over is surging. RPRY has not had a growth in student body in decades while the new (12 years old) Shaarai Tsion schools (boys and girls) are busting out of two new buildings. The MO in Central NJ still shlep thier daughters to Bruria in Elizabeth (Which is now run by a Mrs. Blackhatter) while the new Charaidi Bais Yaakov HS has full classes.

Elizabeth, the old guard of MO is now frummer than the Tietz family and if Passaic and Edison keep growing will soon be a branch office of one of them.

While in Teaneck, there seems to be a contest going to see which MO shul can send more post high school boys off to YU or Isreal to buy thier black hats.

Forget about Passaic, where the great success of Yeshivat Beit Hillel has caused a resurgence of Modern Orthodoxy, but only if you consider blackhatter baalai teshuva MO.

The educated, modern, University of Berlin worshipping KAJ has become a local chapter of Agudah Wannabes Anonymous.

In less than 20 years Flatbush went from being the escape route from the destruction Boro Park's YI and Beth El to being being Boro Park East and the Williamsburg of the Sephardic world.

last i heard, even in the Holy Upper West Side there have been sightings of young men with Artt Scroll gemarot scurrying about looking for the secret meeting places of the Daf Yomi Society.

(I'll leave the Five Towns out of this. They are still too busy figuring out how many miles west of the Queens border you can live and still address your sons' bar mitsvah RSVP envelopes to West Lawrence to notice the mass exodus of thier children to Har Nof.)

Frankly, the only place I see any sign of a vibrant Modern Orthodoxy is in the blogosphere.

Lets face it, if MO has been buried by the world of uneducated educators who we dismissed as old-world dead-enders thirty and forty years ago, we need to figure out hat we did wrong, not what they did wrong.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I think Chief Doofis once wrote: "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys." I teach in a public school (limudei chol, of course) because I actually want to make a living and not retire in the poor house. All things being equal, I would gladly teach in a day school (again, limudei chol- the only Jewish subject I'd be qualified to teach is Jewish history).

In this case, it is more more like 'pay so little only teachers teaching for the sake of spreading Charaidi torah will be willing to accept and get teachers who are teaching for the sake of spreading Charaidi torah'.

We have enjoyed 50+ years of not shrinking our pool of MO lawyers, doctors, scientists, etc. by turning some of them into our own rabbonim and roshai yeshiva and didn't worry because we knew there would always be some black-hatter willing to fill the communal positions because (ha, ha, so stupid of them, it will NEVER happen) they wanted to 'save' our children from our 'treif' hashkafot. We were so sure our kids would never reject our version of Orthodoxy that we didn't even see it start to happen until it was over. Now we cannot exist without them.

Take every black hat teacher out of every Day School, every black hat Rabbi out of every YI shul, stop buying meat slaughtered by black hatters, don't buy tefilin or mezuzot or sifrai torah written by them, don't by food under the kashrus supervision of black hatters, don't hire black hat mohalim for our kid's brit milah, don'y use mikva'ot in which any of them were involved in building or designing, don't go to weddings where the MO chattan brings his charaidi rosh yeshiva to be mesader kiddushin, don't buy any sefarim published by charaidim (whooops, there go all those Artscroll gemarot and chumashim and siddurim), tzitzit made by them, talitot made by them, make kiddush on wine made by them, ........

Get the idea yet? We cannot function without them. Kind of like our SUV and Mini van lifestyles. We got hooked into these lifestyles when arabs and charaidim were poor and powerless. Our lifestyles cannot survive without Charadim or oil and the price of both has been going up steadily for years. Now that it is begining to hurt and we can't understand how we got in this position because we've come to believe that cheap oil and powerless, learn-to-shut-up-about-my-lifestyle-or-I'll-replace-you-with-another-charaidi-who-has-already-learned-how was an entitlement.

Good Morning and Welcome to New Teaneck

[Yochanan Lavie]

I miss the Old Teaneck where I grew up.

[alternative child care]

9:49 is exactly right. But I'm not sure what the big tragedy is. Most of us went to schools with chareidi teachers, and after high school went on to university, where we became professionals, scientists, etc. The rebellion rate particularly at Chofetz Chaim schools with their bizarre and untenable "philosophy" is very high. So the lower element of the Jewish society is made up of these pseudo-black hatters (after all, what does it mean anymore? Its not like Chofetz Chaim grads know how to learn) who work in shops, install car alarms, their wives work as realtors, while the more educated pay the bills, get honored at their dinners, and kvetch on blogs like this one. In Europe the divide would be between those who go to trade school, and those who go on to university, etc. I certainly don't want to work in a seforim store tying tzitzis for a living, but some poor shmuck who has no other option will make a living from doing it, and as his major life concern anyway is regulating his daughter's pajama styles, its appropriate.
The ghetto days are over in the USA, birthplace is no longer destiny, people with OCD who don't adapt to modern society can hang out with Aish and move to enclaves where they can make their lives miserable, which is what they want, and those of us born in Hassidic families who decided to go to university can do that as well. Lots of Lakewood guys in law schools these days.

In Israel, where there's politics involved, its a different story, of course.

You missed the entire point. Your attitude is the reason they are thriving while we watch our youngsters abandon the sinking ship.

We try to convince ourselves that the we practice Modern Orthoxy with as much devotion to Orthodoxy as the Charaidim, we just have different shitot and hashkafot, but chas veshalom we are not less devoted. We are machshiv mitzvot as much as they are machshiv thier mitzvois, we love our Torah as much as they love thier Toirah, we are ready to be moser nefesh for G-d as much as they are ready to be moiser nefesh for der aibishter. We take our Judaism as seriously as they do.

Even ask the - wait, what was the term you used? 'some poor shmuck who has no other option' who spends his life making tzitzit and is happy that he can earn a living and help others do mitzvot!

Son, we love all Jews, not like those filthy charaidim who are all - how did you put it? - "lower element of the Jewish society ........... who work in shops, install car alarms"? - THEY don't have Ahavat Yitrael, (oops, can never keep that one straight, maybe I should get to bait kenneset before shema on shabbat so I can remember it better) Yisrael, only we have it.

We ae machshiv torah and mitzvot, Son, AND we love Midinat Yisrael (see? got it right that time! I can sleep in again.) and have just as high a regard for Orthodoxy and Torah. We just have the true mesorah, not like the Charaidim! It is DAVKAH because we love REAL torah that we don't want THEM to ruin Orthodoxy. Now go run along and pick a career.

WHAT???!!! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR *^$#@&#(^%# MIND???!!! I SPENT 15 BIG ONES A YEAR SENDING YOU TO KUSHNER AND YAVNEH SO YOU CAN BE SOMEBODY, DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR LIFE AND YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR WHOLE ^#*% LIFE LEARNING???!!! I TOLD THAT %*%#(^&$(#%BOARD OF THAT %#*%$^&% SHUL THAT THIS ^%%(^&$% YU AND THAT ^$(^&%)^% RABBI SCHECHTER! I'M GOING TO SUE THE %*%e^()&$ UNTIL THEY ARE AS BROKE AS A ^**#%$(^&% SOFER IN ^&%*%$(^ IN THE %(&$^&( WILLIAMSBURG _&%(% GHETTO!

I've always thought RCA's Basil Herring sounds like a Monty Python character portrayed by John Cleese.

Ha! Yeah . . . it does!

[David]

The most hilarious thing about this whole post/thread is that he didn't say that!!!

I can't believe that supposedly savvy Internet readers would swallow a post on YNET hook, line and sinker. I am holding the Olam Katan issue (#152, Yom Haatzmaut)in my hands right now, and he writes explicitly that pajamas are fine.

This post and the thread following is truly sad.

[kelly]

Oh the double-standards!
I've seen many Orthodox Rabbis wear tshirts when it is hot, but the women, oh nooo. Can't see those elbows.
I also agree with the sleep naked thing. Less laundry :)