Eternal Haredi Family

At least one American haredi rabbi has revoked a conversion more than one year after supervising it.

Who is that rabbi? Why did he revoke the conversion? Could something be…

…desperately wrong in Monsey?

I think so.

Who is the rabbi? Leib Tropper of Horizons, Kol Yakov and Eternal Jewish Family fame.

The reason for revoking the conversion? You'll have to read all about it over on Jewcy.com where David Kelsey and I dish the details.

Comments

Finally! About time!

[Yosef ben Matitya]

one should not wonder why heaven's wrath is on our people, with missiles falling in ashqelon and sderot.
but rather one wonders how is it that the qadosh barukh hu does not aim sharper for these disasters to befall wicked and deserving sodomites such as tropper, attiah , elioshiv and those in 770 e.pkwy y'sh (speedily in our days) !

one should not wonder why heaven's mercy is on our people, with missiles falling in ashqelon and sderot causing few injuries and few deaths while He watches over our boys in the IDF and gives them the courage stregnth and good aim to kill more of them than they kill of us, but rather one wonders how is it that the qadosh barukh hu does not aim sharper for these disasters to befall wicked and deserving sodomites such as Assad, Osama, Obama, Olmart, Mubarak, Hamas, Hizbolleh, Jimmy Carter, aggressive pan-handlers, Oliver Stone, Barabara Striesand, Jane Fonda, Shalom Achshav, the Labor Party, Chavez, Castro, self-hating Jewish bloggers who seek to destroy us by creating the appearance that all allegations against any Jew are not only true but case-studies in how all Orthodox Jews behave, and the guy who thought of Daytime Running Lights.

[avrohom B]

you forgot to add to your list; anonymous poster 9:08am

[The Heilge Rebbe of Otisville]

Again Shmaria you are omitting vital information. I know the girl very well and you forgot to mention that she was listening to Lipa and reading Slifkin

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Not only behima tropper (300 pounds) messed up the life of Gideon Busch, a promising medical student who tropper told him to drop out of school, messed up with his mind, then he kicked him out of his yeshiva causing him to get killed by the NYPD. Not only he abused his own twin daughters Rina and Gila. Not only he was beyond the Slifkin ban. He broke many families and shattered many lives. For one example He told a guy to leave his wife because she did not want to cover her hair. He then sent the guy to a yeshiva in Israel while the woman was left with three children , no child support no spousal support and had to go on welfare.

He tells some students in kol eysav to cut any communication with their parents unless the parents become frum. The students in his yeshiv are weirdo and freaks. One of them has his peos grow horizontally (no gel) you have to see it to believe it.

There are countless cases of Tropper evil deeds, most people here hate him but they afraid of him because the money he gets from Leor Energy.

He tells people that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZTL told him to open his yeshiva (kol eysav). My father is a talmid of rav Kaminetzky and he tol me that rav Kaminetzky was such holy person and he would not stay in the same room with evil chozir like Tropper.

Like he says that he was ben bayis by rev moshe. yeah right, just another lie

To be continued

[maven]

The Tendler kids were also bnei bayit at Rav Moshe. Apparently that line on a CV is not protective of being a mushchas.

This whole business is so sickening it really makes me wonder if we aren't at some critical juncture of some new Churban.

I had a rebbe at Mir who used to say that the shoah was because of the arrogance of the yeshiva velt. At the time I thought it was a horrible concept, but no longer.

V'ha'emet tihiyeh ne'ederet, there's a teaching that b'acharit hayamim truth will be "buried", I suppose we're living to see it.

[meyer]

"but rather one wonders how is it that the qadosh barukh hu does not aim sharper for these disasters to befall wicked and deserving sodomites such as tropper, attiah , elioshiv and those in 770 e.pkwy y'sh (speedily in our days) !"

An even bigger question is why he hasn't aimed yet at the wicked evil bastard - Yosef ben Matitya.

Answer - because heaven is laughing at him while they're stocking the huge fires that will consume his rotten soul.

[Joel]

Can conversions be revoked? I dont really know what the halacha says but I would imagine that just like we are jews and we cant just "drop out" at least not halachicly so to once someone is converted they just cant "drop out" or be forced out either. I mean its not like a drivers license right? Can the converting rabbi undo a conversion? If Judaism can be revoked can we revoke Howard Sterns Jew card, he's kind of an embarrassment.

If we can't dump Howard Stern can we at least trade him for Don Imus?

[Harold F]

In 1981, an Orthodox rabbi told me that a conversion was difficult to invalid. He said this during a discussion of the Langer siblings scandal where Chief Rabbi Goren invalidated a conversion to keep them from being declared illegitimate. This decision triggered outrage in the Orthodox world. The rabbi admitted that the invalidation was done for political purposes only.

In 1989, another Orthodox rabbi said that the reasoning used to invalidate the conversion was very poor and Goren's reputation suffered because of it. He also admitted that it was done solely for political motives.

What would they say now?

[chnyock]

scottie,

why don't you open your own yeshiva so you can preach your own hogwash perversion of judaism

[BaltimoreYid]

It terrifies me to ponder that a conversion can be "revoked." I am married to a giyoret and the thought of having some fanatical rabbi screwing with my wife and my children really upsets her as well. We are a sincere shomrei mitzvot family and I often think that aliyah is not in the cards for us because of these zealots. So far at least here in Baltimore I've never heard of a 'revocation.' Any thoughts on this?

baltimore yid . instead of worrying why dont you consult with a rabbi there that yu can trust . life is too short to start worrying about every move u do

Baltimore Yid; as I'm sure you know, the great number of conversions in Baltimore were done under supervisioon of a Lubavitch rabbi very established in the community - mostly through the years R. Weinberg ZTL (who had very famous 'problems' with Chabad), was Rosh Yeshivah. I personally think only if things come down to the wire and Chabad is resoundingly and universally called out will Gerut become a big issue in Baltimore. But I'm also increasingly of the belief that Meshiachist shtus is much, much deeper and permeating than is apparent - and it's quite apparent. *But* halacha determined among ones authorities decides these things, not what is personally apparent.

[SJ]

Orthodox jews are caligynephobic. XD

[Dave]

Baltimore Yid, I am sincerely sorry for your suffering. Why don't you become Sephardic. I am not kidding. That would probably resolve your concern.
I am Sephardic, and as far as I know, you could certainly get many/ most Sephardic rabbis to absolutely certify that your wife's conversion is 100 percent genuine and heartfelt.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: I wish I could "convert" to being Sephardic, but I like Yiddish too much (LOL). Unfortunately, many Sephardim are converting to Ashekenzi-chareidism. I have a friend who is Spanish-Portugese- a real ST. He says his minhag and philosophy are dying (not physically, but spiritually).

Baltimore Yid, I am sincerely sorry for your suffering. Why don't you become Sephardic. I am not kidding. That would probably resolve your concern.
I am Sephardic, and as far as I know, you could certainly get many/ most Sephardic rabbis to absolutely certify that your wife's conversion is 100 percent genuine and heartfelt.

Posted by: Dave | May 15, 2008 at 11:12 PM

Oh boy. You people really need to stop commenting on things about which they have limited knowladge.

The entire Sephardic rabbinate in America declared (in 1935) and reaffirmed (in 1946) a total ban on any sephardic Jew marrying any convert no matter how sincere. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Sephardic rabbi in America who is going to touch this issue.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Wrong, anonymous. That is the Syrian community (which technically is Mizrachi, not Sephardic). They don't speak for all Sephardim. See what Marc Angel has to say about converts, and the conversion process. Or Ovadia Yosef, for that matter. He FORCED the Syrian-American community to accept a woman he converted, despite their ban.

[Ariel Sokolovsky http://www.moshiach.ws]

B"H
Oh boy. You people really need to stop commenting on things about which they have limited knowladge.

The entire Sephardic rabbinate in America declared (in 1935) and reaffirmed (in 1946) a total ban on any sephardic Jew marrying any convert no matter how sincere. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Sephardic rabbi in America who is going to touch this issue.

Posted by: | May 16, 2008 at 09:06 AM

Not entire Sefardic Rabbinate just the Syrian one. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Jews#cite_ref-15

[Hannah Montana]

When a couple decides to become observant they usually are not on the same page for a long tome. When the wife is not even Jewish the problems are compounded. It takes chochma and wisdom to help the couple to navigate thru these changes in their life.

It does not surprise me that that rabbi Tropper canceled her conversion, he is not known to be very bright or very compassionate. When BTs come to him with a similar problem (the couple is not on the same observance level) he will tell the more observant spouse to divorce the less observant spouse and actually give up custody on the children (if they are any ).

I know this web site is not Chabbad fans site but from my experience Chabbad know how to help those couples to combine observance and shlom bais.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Hannah: Nice photos (LOL).

It is my experience that converts often make the best Jews. Even the most cynical convert for marriage can be turned on by Judaism, and cause the born Jewish spouse to become observant. I know it happens.

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

Yochanan,

Of course it's true that people who cynically convert just for marriage sometimes do become enthusiastic and sincere Jews by choice. We all know of such people or have heard anecdotes about such cases. But a lot just remain Jews in name only, just like a lot of born Jews. My cousin married a guy, originally Italian-Catholic, who converted TWICE for her (Reform, when they initially married), then when she fell under the spell of the local Chabad shaliach, and as he was an affable willing-to-please guy, he later had an Orthodox conversion, which included (I assume), the hatafat dam berit. Anyway, like a lot of BTs, they went off the derekh after a few years. Later they had marital problems, my cousin's husband the ger had an affair, and he ran off with his new Catholic girlfriend and married her. He declared he no longer considered himself Jewish and sent back his tefilin and talit. He was mensch enough though to give her a get, so she wouldn't stay an aguna--even though she is no longer religious she insisted on that. (I actually think he was always a mensch even though he may have cheated and left my cousin, it seemed to me that he went along with his wife's craziness about all sorts of things for a long time--he became a Jew just for her.) Of course, all of their kids are halakhically Jewish whether my cousin's husband converted or not, but as far as I can tell they are indifferent and the family went through so much meshugas and spiritual wanderings anyway (my cousin also went through a Wiccan New Agey phase too), I don't see those kids fully embracing Jewishness, whether Orthodox, Reform or Conservative, Zionistic, whatever, in any meaningful way. I'm agnostic, not shomer mitzvot (well there are some mitzvot that I am shomer), yet I think converting to Judaism is a very serious undertaking. Obviously it's a travesty where they are "revoking" halakhically valid conversions, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to insist on stringency before they convert people. I often wish there was some kind of intermediate status in Orthodox communities where they recognize people as part of the broader community who may not be halakhic Jews yet--people who have patrilineal Jewish descent or spouses of Jews, without counting them in a minyan. That way, people could be made to feel part of the community without going all the way before they are ready. The problem is the prevailing Orthodox mindset is that to do so would be to condone intermarriage.

[maven]

Now there are all sorts of "born" Jews in cults, New Age and Wiccan groups, or who were Orthodox and now go to Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist temples. So should they have their Jewish cards revoked?
And what level of stringency do you require? The midrash tells us of Gd's mercy on Ishmael because of what he was at the time, not because of what he did later.

Anyway, here, the Jewish status is being revoked even in fully observant, Torah fearing sincere converts with kids in Yeshiva, etc, not because of anything the converts did, but because of the politics of the rabbis involved in the sparring batei-din. No stringency in the world protects converts, living for many years in the frum world, and their children who grew up in yeshivot, from this horror.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I wish personal status were deemed differently. Conversion shouldn't be yanked away from the sincere, and it is my (imperfect) understanding that only a conversion "al tinei" can be revoked, even if the convert lapses. But maybe people should be allowed to renounce their conversion (not have it taken away if they do at least some mitzvot and still identify with the Jewish people).

Kids from mixed marriages usually identify with the father's religion. Halachically, this is a tragedy. I wish anyone with one Jewish parent (father or mother) who identifies as a Jew should be accepted; and one who does not identify be considered a Gentile.

But it is not up to me. I have to accept the standards of the community. Compulsory chareidism for all converts is ridiculous and unnecessary, except for converts who want to be chareidi, on the other hand. Being MO should be good enough for the rabbi nuts, but it's not.

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

"And what level of stringency do you require? The midrash tells us of Gd's mercy on Ishmael because of what he was at the time, not because of what he did later."

Maven--be mikre ha zeh, lo hevanta!

I don't advocate or condone any rabbinical revocation of Jewish status of a convert. In the case of my cousin's ex, as I understand it, his conversion is not at all considered anulled-he gave a get to my cousin AFTER he returned to Catholicism. (I'm actually not clear on the details if he officially re-affiliated himself with Catholicism, all I know is he declared that he no longer saw himself as Jewish.) Like I said, his infidelities aside, he has always seemed a mensch to me, and his willingness to give a get to my cousin (with whom he had a "real" marriage post-Orthodox conversion) despite no longer considering himself Jewish buys him points in my book. I just meant to say that it's not necessarily a bad thing to make it hard for some people to convert in the first place. As far as I understand, he had a halakhically valid conversion and they led a right-wing MO lifestyle, belonging to an MO shul and a Chabad House for a year or two before my cousin went off on another spiritual tangent. (Someone may have insulted them at their shul for some reason or other that distanced them.) But yeah, my cousin goes through a lot of spiritual vagaries, and while they were married, her husband went along with her on most things (always seemed to me that she wore the pants-sorry for the sexist lingo) and it's not a bad idea to weed out flaky religious adventurers (or people married to flaky religious adventurers and under their sway) before converting them. That's why I said I wish Orthodox Jews would recognize some other kind of status that acknowledges the many people who are spouses of Jews or of patrilineal Jewish descent as part of the community. Without going so far as Reform has and calling these people "Jews" there should be a way of saying to such people, "ok, you're not a Jew, per se, in terms of having the halakhic duties or rights of a Jew--but you're part of the community". Sort of analogous to Green Card holders in Judaism. Non-citizens who should be made to feel welcome and encouraged to become naturalized citizens of the Jewish people only if and when they are ready to undertake the obligations to do so. In the case of non-Jewish men with Jewish wives, and halakhically Jewish children, more of them would be inclined to encourage their Jewish children to regard themselves as Jewish if they are made to feel welcome. I've also heard countless stories of people who wanted to affiliate themselves with an Orthodox community, but their mother wasn't Jewish, who when they first meet frum people get rudely told "you're a goy!" Again, for any frum people reading this, let me stress that I'm not advocating that declaring such individuals are Jews either (as Reform does), but merely that they should be recognized as part of the "mishpoche". I think that if this attitude was more commonplace there would be fewer people feeling pressured to do Orthodox conversions that they aren't really ready for, and/or people choosing to undergo non-halakhic conversions through the non-Orthodox denominations. There would be more of a positive feeling towards Orthodoxy in general and perhaps later more of these people, when made to feel valued and welcome, would eventually choose to convert Orthodox when ready (or maybe they wouldn't). In any case, they should be accepted as human beings and part of the broader community, and made to feel welcome in Orthodox shuls, at Jewish communal events with their halakhically Jewish relatives, if not counted in a minyan or called for an aliyah. But the majority of Orthodox won't endorse such an attitude and would just say it would encourage intermarriage.

[maven]

Schmorgel-

While this doesn't have anything to do with the conversion controversy, in the time of the Talmud there was such a category, called the Yir'ei Hashem or other such similar terms, Romans who affiliated with the Jewish cause and monotheism but wouldn't go through brit milah, etc. The midrash is full of stories in favor of such people.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

The entire Sephardic rabbinate in America declared (in 1935) and reaffirmed (in 1946) ?????

no sir, no entire nothing.
just them lowly overblown group of farts allepoan swindlers running thieving businesses in broadway and living in brooklyn, manhattan and deal n.j.
just them. nobody else and nowhere else.
there is a ladino saying to describe such hypocytes:
"they kiss the mezuza without fail and when they can get away with it, they steal pita".
nowadays this is passe, they still bigger things.
how did we say it in hebrew?
שארית הרפש שבתחתית החלאה