INTERVIEW: OU's Rabbi Menachem Genack on Rubashkin

I spoke briefly with the CEO of OU Kosher, Rabbi Menachem Genack. I asked him the following question:

Shmarya Rosenberg: "Why don't you tell me in a nutshell why the business practices of a company you supervise and certify should not enter into, or do not enter into, whether the food they produce is kosher or not? Whether you leave your hechsher on or not?"

Rabbi Genack: "It does fall into the purview of, not of whether it is kosher or not, but whether we should be supervising it. And what I said many times is that this, these areas – immigration, you know, worker rights – the whole plethora of them, that we're going to follow the lead of the Federal government who has authority in this. And, you know, we'll see what happens and we will do – and we will see where the facts lead us. Obviously, if there if they are held culpable on a corporate level then we will respond on that basis."

Rabbi Genack had to take another call, and was unable to take a followup question.

Comments

[yidandahalf]

He should take some lessons from Lubinsky. At least lie and dither with what passes for finesse among the lubavitchers.

[Anon]

--Rabbi Genack had to take another call, and was unable to take a followup question.--

Dude, he was being polite. What he really meant is that he didn't have time to be bothered with a loser who has been a failure at every endeavor he's undertaken - from shaliach to butcher - and who can't even maintain his own website without schnorring funds.

[one of many]

those kind of comments are uncalled for!
The only loosers you will see, is the one who falls at there own lies and deciete.
That is who will loose in the end.
and may Hashem be the ultimate Judge of Judges on anyone who misleads my people and many.

[steve]

The fact that the USDA issued hundreds of health and safety violations wasn't enough. The fact that PETA exposed the cruelty to animals wasn't enough. The House and Senate investigations wasn't enough. The fact that KAJ pulled out because of kashrus issues wasn't enough. The hundreds of chickens that fell off the truck that were sold as "glatt kosher" wasn't enough. Now this raid of hundreds of illegals and revelations of cruelty to workers and it's still not enough. When Sholom Rubashkin is led away in chains, maybe then it will be enough? Nah, there is too much at $take here. In cases of hefsed meruba to kashrus agencies a responsible rabbi must move heaven and earth to find a safeik to mattir the product. So all these facts listed above must remain as sfeikos and Rubashkin product is still under the "supervision" of the OU (Weissmandel and his $250K salary says it's kosher so we also say it's kosher). Weissmandel and Rubashkin are honorable men.

[one of many]

Also i would like to thank the owner of this site for bringing us the truth and opening our eyes to reality!
sometimes the truth hurts, but we cannot be ignorant to these things and others.
Our final destiny, really depends on the way we live our lives today and the chioces we make today.
being informed to make that decision is a good thing, moving forward being possitive and sharing what you know with others is showing G_d that we care about him life our brothers all Jews and humaity at large!
We care G-d cares, we love G-d loves,
its a beautiful thing and we have that power to do, choose, and be what ever we want to be!!
I choose life!
G-d Bless us in doing the wright things today and for always!!!
SHalom!!!

[yidandahalf]

Yes, it's been so long since the boys from Postville have come out to say hello. Great to have you back! I can't wait to hear your leaps of true brilliance on a public forum. If Anon and no id are anything to judge by we are in for the best rubbishcan's flunkies have to offer. What a treat! What Talmudic inspired convolutions of reasoning! WHAT ASSHOLES!

[steve]

Rubashkin: No Shortage Of Supply, Due To Raid

No problem, they just need to print more "glatt kosher" labels.

[yidandahalf]

Steve, so true, so true.

[Bartley Kulp]

In otherwise as long as the halachot in Yordea have not been compromised they could be using their meat business as a cover for selling cocaine. As long as he would not be implicated by the federal authorities he will continue his supervision.

[steve]

as long as the halachot in Yordea have not been compromised

You can twist and pervert the halacha in many ways to declare anything kosher. The OU will find a heter for pork chops if they get paid enough.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

In otherwise as long as the halachot in Yordea have not been compromised they could be using their meat business as a cover for selling cocaine.>

Or how about a kosher Hooters restaurant?

[Yosef ben Matitya]

but what happened to rabbi hecht of thailand?

why isn't he collecting funds for myanmar's poors, there must be more than one or 2 safeq jews there to collect money for?
tsunami was good for him when him, his trolls and r amar (of israel) did photo ops from bangkok to puket handing toys to destitute thai kids.

[Larry Lennhoff]

Someone should ask Rabbi Genack whether the OU would provide supervision for a new kosher Glatt Yacht.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Or how about a kosher Hooters restaurant?

good question nigritude,
but that unfortunately would be pritzus (don't u think?). although i heard from a lubavich rabbi on a roll to please his secular audience and quoting an anonymous 3rd person (off the record), that maybe there is no harm watching waitresses such as those of hooters as it would be like consulting a treif menu without actually ordering a ham and cheese sandwich!
:-)

[rabbidw]

It is a question of trust. If they cannot be trusted, they cannot get hechsher. It is as simple as that. If someone has a reputation as a liar to make extra money, they will lie about kashrus to make more money

Dude, he was being polite. What he really meant is that he didn't have time to be bothered with a loser who has been a failure at every endeavor he's undertaken - from shaliach to butcher - and who can't even maintain his own website without schnorring funds.

Posted by: Anon | May 13, 2008 at 04:01 PM

You mean this website is not the first time Shmarya has screwed up BIG time?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

but that unfortunately would be pritzus (don't u think?).

Yes it would, but the OU could just tell everybody not to look. ;-)

[timp j]

i operate a dairy farm outside of postville and have a hispanic employee that has friends that worker at agri and he told me some stories that would make you quessy if you at food that came from agri

one for instance is that they are told to relabel packages of meat if have been in the freezer to long

[one of many]

i operate a dairy farm outside of postville and have a hispanic employee that has friends that worker at agri and he told me some stories that would make you quessy if you at food that came from agri

one for instance is that they are told to relabel packages of meat if have been in the freezer to long

timp are you serious?
Do they even care about anything?
how do you know that they are clean when they are doing these practices? are there 24 undercover webcams? and how do you know since there are many stories that yet have to be told, how do you know that this so called Kosher meat, is not Infected meat???

or do we have to wait 2 years to hear about any thing like the sort, like the most recent news we hear,, seems like daily news!?

[DK]

Interesting comment!

[shmuel]

God, please forgive me (and all of us): I like the kosher Hooters idea.

[Robin]

Shmarya, keep up the good work. As for Anon,ignore the arsehole. The only contermporary jewish cause worth supporting is yours. Rabbi Yisroel Salanter said very clearly that food obtained in an unethical and inhumane fashion is not kosher - period. Genack should go back to yeshiva. If people want to pretend that certification makes something kosher they should be clear that they are not fooling God, just themselves.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Steve: You litany of what wasn't enough reminds me of the Pesach song Dayenu.

I would like to see a heter for Hooters!

[steve]

Yochanan,

It's more like the ten plagues. Weissmandel and the OU are being as stubborn as Pharoh in Egypt. As far as a kosher Hooters, I don't see the problem. If yeshivos that employ child molesters are kosher and the molesters themselves are permitted to continue teaching, what could be wrong with a restaurant serving kosher food with scantily clad waitresses? In fact they once set up a glatt kosher concession stand at a beach club at the Jersey shore. The mashgiach had to wear blinders (as all mashgichim do today anyway).

[Shmarya]

Rabbi Yisroel Salanter said very clearly that food obtained in an unethical and inhumane fashion is not kosher - period.

Anyone have a source for this?

Or how about a kosher Hooters restaurant?

Sounds great! I'm in!!!

Okay, who knows how to get investors?

but that unfortunately would be pritzus (don't u think?).

If the OU can certify Rubashkin, they can certify our kosher Hooters restaurant.

although i heard from a lubavich rabbi on a roll to please his secular audience and quoting an anonymous 3rd person (off the record), that maybe there is no harm watching waitresses such as those of hooters as it would be like consulting a treif menu without actually ordering a ham and cheese sandwich!

Now that is something from a Lubavitcher rabbi that I can agree with. LOL

[Robin]

I'll get back to you with the source for Rav Salanter's statement.

[D.]

Shmarya,

I don't agree with everthing you post, but the work you are doing in this area is tremendously important. I can't thank you enough.

[Shmarya]

Robin –

Good. Thank you.

D –

Thanks you.

[BaltimoreYid]

My wife & I quit buying Rubashkin products two years ago. Until that whole mess in Iowa is cleaned up once and for all I'll continue buying other brands.

[Robin]

Shmarya, I read about Rav Yisrael's opinion in a book by Rabbi Yosef Eisen, "Miraculous Journey", chapter 20, p 300 "According to Rabbi Israel, the matzo must be kosher according to both the laws of Pesach and the laws of human relations". The author gives as his source "Sparks of Mussar", C. E. Zaitchik, pp 41- 42.
Furthermore, our tables are compared to altars. In Kiddushin, p52a there is a clear discussion about how stolen goods or goods obtained through improper means cannot be consecrated or used for betrothal. So how can we put on our altars today animals which have been obtained through improper means, and by all accounts, in addition, are a health hazard?

[Robin]

Shmarya, I read about Rav Yisrael's opinion in a book by Rabbi Yosef Eisen, "Miraculous Journey", chapter 20, p 300 "According to Rabbi Israel, the matzo must be kosher according to both the laws of Pesach and the laws of human relations". The author gives as his source "Sparks of Mussar", C. E. Zaitchik, pp 41- 42.

[Robin]

Tried to post the Rav Salanter reference but your spam filter blocked it. Let me know if you didn't get it and I'll try again

[Robin]

Source for R. Salanter's comment: "Miraculaous Journey" by Rabbi Yosef Eisen, ch 20 p 300. He gives as a reference "Sparks of Mussar" pp 41 - 42.

See also very clearly Kiddushin p 52b, where it says very clearly that you cannot consecrate or use for betrothal goods obtained in an improper manner (stolen, extorted etc) - our tables are altars....

[Shmarya]

Thanks, Robin.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Robin: Any good sources for the Mussar Movement in English?

[PITA]

Typical.

He can argue and insult any talmid chochom with whom he disagrees and can tell you every avairoh they ever did and why everything they say is against G-d's will but he can't read Hebrew.

Maybe you shold learn to float and tread water before you declare yourself the world's only real lifeguard.

[Yochanan Lavie]

PITA: You're typical of the kind of person who turned me off to Orthodoxy. If you mean me, I CAN read Hebrew, but I'm not fluent. Unlike you, I don't claim to be a lifeguard or a paradigm of virtue. But that doesn't mean I suspend all my judgement and grovel abjectly at the feet of angry, superstitious men who call themselves leaders. (Not all rabbis are bad; them I listen to.) It is typical of arrogant frummies to belittle those who want to learn more, and better themselves. But I will not be sha shtill when converts are abused, laws are broken, children are molested, new chumrot are added, and the religion is turned into an All-Star game of One-Ups-manship. Just because I'm not a buky beShas doesn't mean I know nothing.

[Robin]

PITA, since when does the ability to read hebrew determine your level of intellect, sensitivity, and ability to understand halachic issues? I know many morons who can speak and read hebrew fluently, and the most insightful and intelligent people that I know can't speak hebrew at all. How's your Afrikaans by the way? - mine is excellent.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thank you Robin. I have a PhD from a major university, and 8 years of yeshiva education (4 yrs in an MO High School that has a program for ex-public school kids like me; 4 years in an Orthodox college). I rely on other experts, who are just as knowledgeable as the chareidim but disagree with them, for technical halachic issues that are beyond my ken. But I am more well-read in Jewish history, Jewish philosophy, Jewish literature (in English and translation), world history, science, secular philosophy and literature, and politics than most yeshiva bochurim who can run rings around me on a page of gemara. I also have acquired a working knowledge of Modern Hebrew, Yiddish, and some Aramaic, despite coming from a monolingual English speaking household.

In short, you can disagree with me, but I am not a moron, and have a right to opine.

[PITA]

PITA: You're typical of the kind of person who turned me off to Orthodoxy. If you mean me, I CAN read Hebrew, but I'm not fluent. Unlike you, I don't claim to be a lifeguard or a paradigm of virtue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You've got it 180 degrees backwards. (Not surprising, as your emotions and opinions are formed by your agenda.) It is I who can truly claim that 'Unlike you, I don't claim to be a lifeguard or a paradigm of virtue'.

I have more faults than you can imagine in your worst nightmares. I violate the laws of the Torah more often than anyone and should be held accountable more so than anyone because I do know better and yes, I have been blessed with conversational fluency of Hebrew and read the exact words of our holy Chazal and willfully rebel against the will of my creator with a clearer understanding than many others.

That is why you will not find me attacking anyone else or running publicity campaigns against anyone for their sins. Only those who are, or more likely just believe themselves to be, 'paradigms of virtue' would be willing to rant and rave about someone else's moral and ethical failings as a semi-full time occupation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But that doesn't mean I suspend all my judgement and grovel abjectly at the feet of angry, superstitious men who call themselves leaders. (Not all rabbis are bad; them I listen to.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Which means that although you readily admit that you have yet to master the ability to independently study the most basic halachic and philosophical writings in their original and purest form, you believe that you are qualified to judge which learned men are and are not following in the holy footsteps of chazal. Were I to study 12 hours a day for 100 years I would not have the arrogance to sit in judgement over anyone who has studied more than I have.

I do not wear blinders and know that there is horrible corruption in the world. However, to appoint myself judge, jury and executioner over any individual when I could instead improving myself would be the absolute height audacity. Ranting and raving about the sins and moral and ethical lapses of others is an easy way to feel we are changing the world. In reality though, truely impacting the quality of the world in which we live is much more difficult because it involves ranting and raving against the one person who knows where to hide because he knows which of his failings you are about to attack.
The government has helped us identify that person by requiring that his (or her) picture be put on every person's driver's license and passport.

K'shot atzmach......

That is how one really changes the world. The masters of the mussar movement believed that every lecture in morals and ethics they gave was really a public display of the admonitions they themselves needed. The Jewish people will be improved forever by those giants who would admonish themselves into perfecting their own midot.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is typical of arrogant frummies to belittle those who want to learn more, and better themselves.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I must move in the wrong circles. I don't know anyone who belittles those who want to learn more and improve themselves thru a an ever-improving understanding of G-d's will thru the study of Torah. If I see anything, I see hundreds of dedicated yeshiva-educated ba'alai bayit volunteering uncountable hours to help others learn Torah and move closer to G-d. I see that for just one of the many out-reach programs across this great country there were well over 1,000 young women, true b'not torah, all in a three-year age group from which the program accepts applications, applying to spend their summer vacation hundreds and even thousands of miles from home, unpaid, sharing their love of Torah and other Jews with public high-school students who might otherwise not know that there is more to Judaism than remembering the Holocaust and joining the NAACP and supporting the ACLU and protesting in favor of gay 'marraige'.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But I will not be sha shtill when converts are abused,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And there sir is the total difference between us. When I read an article about Rabbi Tropper I wonder what the reporter left out. I ask myself why I have not studied enough to quote g'mara and ShUt so I can form an opinion based on divrai chazal and not on my more limited grasp of torah. I know very little torah. In fact the only thing I really understand about Torah is that I don't even understand how great an ahm ha'aretz I am. You claim to be angry at the 'frummies' for being arrogant towards people who know less than they do. I the accusation hard to believe because 'the frummies' as you so bigotadly label them, are so often found in beitai medrash seeking to learn more torah. No one can spend that much of their life in pursuit of knowladge if they beleive they already know everything.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

laws are broken,

Allegedly

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

children are molested,

asa they are in every society, but we as Jews should be doing more to prevent it. However, the depth of the foolishness inherent in seeking the destruction of the yeshiva system instead of fixing it is too great too describe even on the limitless internet.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

new chumrot are added,

If you are against abortion don't have one. If you are against chumrot don't follow them. And please save me the foolish arguement that charaidim are forcing their standards onto the rest of us. I was been modern orthodox and am modern orthodox today. The only time I fell for the chumrot de jour routine was when I had not figured out that if I would learn more Torah I wouldn't be intimidated into someone else's chumrot and would appreciate the ones that improved my avadot elokim.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and the religion is turned into an All-Star game of One-Ups-manship.

Knowing that any religion has been turned on its head pre-supposes that the decider knows which in direction heads-up would be. I confess to be so totally lacking in arrogance that I am no more sure that my path to yirat shamayim is any more correct then the one that might be popular or accepted by any other group.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just because I'm not a buky beShas doesn't mean I know nothing.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM

Another fundamental difference between us. I am an 'ahm ha'aretrz b'kol hatorah kulah' and I understand that my not knowing shas means I know nothing.

The path to G-d begins at the end of the road of the arrogant. Humility is to learning as oxygen is to breathing.

>>>>>>>>>>

Shabbat Shalom U'mevorach

Shabbat Shalom

PITA, since when does the ability to read hebrew determine your level of intellect, sensitivity, and ability to understand halachic issues?

>>> The vast majority of the classic codifiers of Jewish Law and Jewish philosophy were written in Hebrew. All translations are to one degree or another interpretations. (A perfect example of this is the difference in the three most notable Hebrew translations of Chovot HaLevavot (only two of which are available in complete versions.) Some of the differences in the understanding of several fundamental points in the philosophy of Rabbainu Bachya are striking.)

I know many morons who can speak and read hebrew fluently, and the most insightful and intelligent people that I know can't speak hebrew at all.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One might not need be fluent in Hebrew to serve the ribbono shel olamand and find his/her correct path in Judaism. (Might, I really have not thought about this because I was fortunate to grow up not needing to worry about this for myself and don't need to decide it for others.)

However, one must be fluent in Hebrew to offer a learned opinion of what other people should or should not be doing and whether their actions are acceptable in halachah and certainly to decide what a particular Rabbi should have or should not have done with a particular convert (not to mention knowing more than what one reads in the media might help too.)

How's your Afrikaans by the way? - mine is excellent.

Posted by: Robin | May 15, 2008 at 11:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mine is not good at all - unless you count what I learned watching Lethal Weapon (part II, I think).

How is your command of Manderin? Mines so-so. Cantones? Also weak. My Spanish is pretty good for a gringo though. And my Latin is limited to a few dozen phrases tossed around in law books.

[Yochanan Lavie]

(Not surprising, as your emotions and opinions are formed by your agenda.)

Who's aren't? That is human nature. My agenda is a hatred for hypocrisy in all forms.

Which means that although you readily admit that you have yet to master the ability to independently study the most basic halachic and philosophical writings in their original and purest form, you believe that you are qualified to judge which learned men are and are not following in the holy footsteps of chazal.

Wrong. As I wrote, for technical matters I rely on the opinion of others who CAN master those texts. I think any intellegent person can see who is and who is not a hypocrite, a politico, or a crook. I refuse to suspend my critical faculties simply because someone is an authority or an "expert." That is like saying only people who served in the military can opine on the war on terror, for example.

....who might otherwise not know that there is more to Judaism than remembering the Holocaust and joining the NAACP and supporting the ACLU and protesting in favor of gay 'marraige'.

Again, you are inferring a liberal agenda when I am politically conservative on most issues. And it is a red herring- of course I know there's more to Judaism than what Reform rabbis tell us. That is why I left Reform Judaism.

... the accusation hard to believe because 'the frummies' as you so bigotadly label them, are so often found in beitai medrash seeking to learn more torah. No one can spend that much of their life in pursuit of knowladge if they beleive they already know everything.

I am talking about my life experience. I don't give a steaming turd if you believe me or not. I am not talking about kollel bochurim; I don't know any personally. I am talking about baal habatim, and of course, not all of them. I have heard FFB's refer to themselves as "frummies," so it is not "bigotadly" [sic].

The only time I fell for the chumrot de jour routine was when I had not figured out that if I would learn more Torah I wouldn't be intimidated into someone else's chumrot and would appreciate the ones that improved my avadot elokim.

We are in agreement here. Except when you say that chumrot aren't forced on others. Glatt kashrut is a chumra; stam kashrut is perfectly kosher. Try to find non-Glatt meat! More importantly, in Israel, chumrot are forced on converts. It is very difficult (but not impossible, I grant) to get giyurut if you don't want to lead a chareidi life (or at least fake it, while in class). Sincere converts who want to lead a Modern Orthodox lifestyle, particulary woman, and are open about it, get a very hard time.

laws are broken, Allegedly

Why are there prisons with daily minyanim (and not for repentant criminals gone BT)? Why is there all the gov't scrutiny of Rubashkin, et al? It's a Republican administration, and these guys are contributors (not that Dems are honest either). Is it all a vast, anti-Semtic conspiracy? If this was Europe, I'd be more skeptical. In America, where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

However, the depth of the foolishness inherent in seeking the destruction of the yeshiva system instead of fixing it is too great too describe even on the limitless internet.

That's not what I want. I doubt that it's what Shmarya wants. I want to mend it, not end it.

Knowing that any religion has been turned on its head pre-supposes that the decider knows which in direction heads-up would be.

The nevi'im, and the greatest rabbis warn against using Judaism as a form of appeasing God. That's what pagans do. Some individuals flaunt their piety, but are miserable human beings. That is not the direction any religion should take. (Again, NB, "individuals").

The path to G-d begins at the end of the road of the arrogant. Humility is to learning as oxygen is to breathing.

Another point of agreement! But I am not so humble that I can proudly flaunt it, like you do.

This reminds me of a joke: It is Neilah on Yom Kippur. The chazan is doing chazoret hashatz, and gets so emotional he breaks off, prostrates himself before the aron and declaims: "I'm nothing! I'm dust!"

The rabbi, very impressed, does the same: "I'm nothing! I'm dust!"

Soon, the shul president joins in: "I'm nothing! I'm dust!"

Finally, the shammes chimes in: "I'm nothing! I'm dust!"

One congregant turned to other with an arched brow: "Nu! Look who thinks HE'S dust!"

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | May 16, 2008 at 09:20 AM:

I am talking about my life experience. I don't give a steaming turd if you believe me or not.

Reading your response I tried to identify a purpose in investing any more time in this conversation by responding point by point (I admit there were a couple that merited response).

I appreciate your using your comment (above) to remind me of the caliber of mentsch with whom I was about to continue a heretofore civilized if somewhat emotional exchange of ideas (most importantly, to point out that the development of the ability to shape one's emotions and opinions around our ever-growing capacity to understand G-d's will thru ever-deepening torah study is an essential element of avodat elokim while shaping our understanding of G-d's will around our emotions and opinions is nothing more than self-worship). Perhaps unintentionally, you have offered yourself for use as exhibit ‘A’ of a typical angry, hate-filled FailedMessiah chosid. Truly a shame because you are obviously an otherwise bright fellow and who’s writing appears to be that of an astute observer of human behavior and humankind’s follies. Correct assessment of the overall picture need not lead responsible adults to drink from Shmarya’s cup of his usual cure-all - spiteful, poorly aimed vitriolic one-sided personal attacks mixed in with equal parts spray shot-anger and carpet-bombing hatred, perfectly demonstrating the pithy truthfulness of the old adage – When the only tool on a craftsman’s belt is a hammer every problem begins to look like a nail.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am not talking about kollel bochurim;

A definitive example of an oxymoron has seldom been written

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't know any personally.
Perhaps you should make an effort to associate with some. Pirkai avot lists shimush talmidai chachamim as one of the essential steps to aquiring (understanding of) Torah.

>>>>>>>>>>>

I am talking about baal habatim, and of course, not all of them. I have heard FFB's refer to themselves as "frummies," so it is not "bigotadly" [sic].

I've heard African Americans refer to themselves as niggers. That doesn't mean my using the same word would be excusable as a term of endearment.

FWIW, though, growing up, studying, boarding, working and living in frum communities ranging from chassidic and yeshivish Ultra (what the Hell is that suppoed to mean? High Octane Judaism??) Orthodox to Modern Orthodox (Successful Daf Yomi attending professional and academic types) and to what I once heard referred to as Orthodox-lite (mixed swimming Simchat Torah afternoon pool kiddush), in Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, Manhatten, New Jersey, Tel Aviv, Bnai Braq, Rechovot and several neighborhoods of Jerusalem (my parents weren't real good at paying their rent ;-) - just kidding – a long story not worth telling) I cannot recall anyone referring to themselves or their social peers as 'frummies'. It is a somewhat derisive term used (virtually) universally to describe someone who in the speaker's opinion has taken religion a little too far.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

BTW, the joke (at the end of your post) is a retread of a joke told regarding a new student at his first seder hamusar in the Novordok yeshiva. The derech hamussar in Novordok was to stress to oneself one's personal worthlessness. (The intellectual forerunner of today's blogosphere chochmai hamussar who stress everyone else's personal worthlessness, or at least so some would want you to believe).
Legend has it that the entire bait medrash would stand at their shtenders and repeatedly declare with great emotion and concentration 'ich bin ah gornisht, ich bin ah gornisht'.

The joke was that the new student, wishing to respect local custom or wishing not to feel left out stood at his shtender and began declaring with (outwardly) similar great emotion and concentration 'ich bin ah gornisht, ich bin ah gornisht'.

Taken aback by such a blatant spectacle of 'ga'avah' a neiboring student turned to his fellow veteran Novordoker and exclaimed 'geb ah kick! ehr is nor hient araingekumen in yeshiva und ehr maint ehr is shoin ah gornisht!' (Please pardon the my poor yiddish. What limited command of it I have is a rather bastardized version, a virtual fusion cuisine of Litvish, Poilish , Yekkesh and Ingarish linguistic patterns, pronunciations and intonation habits. Not that my command of English is much better. I am much more comfortable insulting strangers in Ivrit.)

Please accept my sincere wishes for a Shabbat Shalom U'mevurach and speedy success in finding a healthy release for that bubbling cauldron of pent-up anti-rabbinic angst.

[Shmarya]

I told you:

NO MORE ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Choose ONE screen name now and stick with it or I will delete every comment yuou have ever posted and ban you.

You may NOT continue using multiple screen names OR posting anonymously.

[PITA]

SHEEESH! Who pee'd in your cheerios this morning?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Please accept my sincere wishes for a Shabbat Shalom U'mevurach and speedy success in finding a healthy release for that bubbling cauldron of pent-up anti-rabbinic angst.

Gladly. And accept my wishes, for the same.

You are not totally inaccurate to refer to my "pent-up anti-rabbinic angst." But please remember that there many rabbis, too numerous to mention, both living and dead, whom I admire. Meanwhile, posting here helps me vent.

I am a "chosid" of Shmarya, but sometimes I take issue with his tone, and his incipient secular humanism. You are relatively new here, so you wouldn't know that. I still think he performs a good service.

Yes, I am emotional, and I get Swiftian at times. If the term frummie is offensive, I apologize for using it.

Thank you for the source of the joke. I didn't know it.

I guess we just have agree to disagree.

[yidandahalf]

to poster at 07:57
Cantonese huh? I'm up for it - throw some transliterations down if you can.

[Robin]

The Torah was given in 70 languages so that no one would be excluded on the basis of language. One amongst numerous examples is that many of the Rambam's seminal works were originally written in Arabic so that lay people at that time could have access to the material. I was educated at a public school with english as my first language. As a busy medical practitioner, and baal teshuvah, despite 15 years at university and numerous degrees and fellowships I find it frustrating that more books are not available in my first language, english. Without wanting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, I do believe that many works have not been translated into english and other languages, to deliberately exclude as many people as possible so as to protect rabbonim and others whose positions depend on dissempowering people. One such perfect example is the fact that Igros Moshe has not been translated into english. I was prepared to sponsor such a translation, and approached a generally brave young rabbi in Israel who I thought would be a good candidate for such a project. He was petrified at the prospect and said that you don't want to even get near that - there is already major controversy surrounding Igrot Moshe.
Let's face it, not only do we have the meat mafia, the halav yisrael mafia, and the conversion mafia, but we have the book mafia as well.

And furthermore, this is nothing new. Economics 101 - there is a well described economic principle by which unions operate- "making the work scarce"- to exclude people.

And as for going against the wishes of people who apparently didn't want their works translated from the original hebrew - Hashem gave us an oral Torah, which we in our wisdom made written, going against his divine wisdom.

Now, just to clarify, was it references relating to the history of the Mussar movement, or books classified as works of mussar, in english, that you wanted?