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May 21, 2008

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If you can revoke lives (gerim) why not revoke death?

As Mark Twain once said: "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."

It's all a power grab.

How absolutely atrocious. The haredi world has spiraled out of control, they don't have a clue what they're doing anymore and have lost touch with what the foundations of our faith is based on.

R. Levine reexamined the Army Rabbinate's decision and disqualified it. He argued that the latter had not elicited sufficient evidence of the soldier's death. Hence, the wife was a safeq Eshet Ish and her daughter a safeq mamzeret.


This "rabbi" might not be a mamzer, but he certainly is a bastard!!!

"Otherwise, how does this charlatan dare to term the military Rabbinate's Bet Din as not being 'God fearing'? Was he ever in a tank? Did he ever suffer the heat of battle? Does he know the circumstances of what type of remains one might expect to find in a burning tank?"

Being in a tank, or to suffer the heat of battle doesn't neccesarily make you "God fearing".

shmukya,

why did she have to "register to get married"? was there a problem? or is that standard?

"R. Levine reexamined the Army Rabbinate's decision and disqualified it. He argued that the latter had not elicited sufficient evidence of the soldier's death. Hence, the wife was a safeq Eshet Ish and her daughter a safeq mamzeret. He informed the stunned girl that she was unable to marry."
But God instructed us in the Torah not to aggrieve the widow, and the orphan, and the outcast, and the poor. That's because He's a loving God. These guys have lost all Torah values, all humane values. They have nothing left to offer me. I will never follow them again on anything ever, bli neder. Litaliban, indeed.
Sometimes I am so ashamed to be Jewish.
There are no words.

why did she have to "register to get married"? was there a problem? or is that standard?

Standard. In Israel there is no civil marriage. Jews must register all pending marriages with the Rabbinute.

B"H
Dear Meyer!

"Otherwise, how does this charlatan dare to term the military Rabbinate's Bet Din as not being 'God fearing'? Was he ever in a tank? Did he ever suffer the heat of battle? Does he know the circumstances of what type of remains one might expect to find in a burning tank?"

Being in a tank, or to suffer the heat of battle doesn't neccesarily make you "God fearing".

Posted by: meyer | May 21, 2008 at 09:35 PM

You are missing what Shmaryah is trying to say.
He is not saying that risking their lives together with the soldiers somehow makes Israeli army rabbis more "G-d fearing"
what he is trying to say
(
and you can see that if you carefully reread that part of the post and what goes after that)
is that R. Levine has not done enough research to disqualify the decision of the army rabbinate hasn't examined what remains of a human being after a tank explodes and burns down etc. to nullify the original decision and he thus feels that it is politically motivated as another attempt to
tarnish the reputation of religious Zionist Rabbis.
PS. And by the way being in a tank risking ones life to defend Eretz Yisrael and millions of Jews living there (including R. Levine) is a sign of ahavat Yisrael - love of your fellow Jew , Ahavat Hashem - love of G-d of Yisrael, yerat Hashem- fear of G-d and mesirus nefesh - being ready to sacrifice ones life for the sake of protecting the people of Yisrael, the holy nation.
It doesn't necessarily take mesirus nefesh or fear of G-d
to learn in Israeli Yeshivah or Kolel supported by government and or ones in laws or wealthy donors however.
Thus it is not necessarily Torah leShma - Torah for its own sake and thus it can lead
to the Rabbi or Dayan making rulings that destroy peoples lives to increase ones influence and the influence of ones "party" at the expense of respect for Torah among the people , unity of the people , shleimus ha'aretz and shleimus ha'am.
May there be enough wise scholars to nullify all rulings of this kind that are not worth the paper they are written on.
PS. See Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamzer#

Orthodox_Judaism
PPS. The whole current situation of virtual halachik anarchy each rabbi doing what is right in his eyes lacking a universally recognized Sanhedrin combined with the current "exile Judaism" with this "halachik anarchy" intact being a part of the Judicial, legislative and executive branches of the government in Eretz Yisrael creates much pain for the people and much hatred of the Torah and the rabbis.
Either Israel should be a state like the USA where the government doesn't legislate and enforce religion or universally recognized rabbinic authority (like a Sanhedrin) should be created and given power to prevent Chilul Hashem like this from ever happening in the future.
How long can we try to stradle two sides of a fence? (to paraphrase Eliyahu the prophet) If democracy with full freedom of religion is the best way let them choose that, if a Jewish state based on the Torah is the right way, let's go in that direction.
The shatnez like mixture of the so called "Jewish and democratic" is neither Jewish nor democratic for it creates a mockery of Judaism and mockery of
democracy.
The situation when rulings like this can be
part of the law of the land , when Arabs and atheists decide by majority vote questions such as who is a Jew.
When a man like Goliath (having a Jewish ancestor) could have instantly gotten Israeli citizenship and full absorbtion package cannot go on.
(And speaking of that this is not just some joke it does happen Google for example the story about Neo Nazis among the new immigrants from Russia or read about the Mubarak Awad scandal:

"The present 'Law of Return' as a SECURITY-RISK for the State of Israel: The Mubarak Awad Scandal"

Shmarya, I am sure that you realize that there is a bigger story here than a girl wanting to marry being called a mamzeret. This is just one of a thousand stories in the naked city.

Reading the PDF. that you linked to us, I was not impressed with this Rabbis ruling for it is the practice of all modern betei dinim to consult with forensic experts in order to help determine what they are poskening. No reliable posek will even start looking in the Shulchan Aruch until he has received all of the available facts. It is safe to assume that the army chaplains had a lot more from the story than they wrote down. Moreover this rav who has self confessed to not having written testimony from witnesses has not even saught them out, nor has he sought out the chaplains involved in order to better understand the report that they wrote.

However the big story in this is who told him to verify the facts of a death certificate signed by rabbonim in good standing. Did R. Levine decide to start this or was he told to? I have a feeling that this is not going to be the last case we will hear about.

It used to be that poskim searched fore any valid leeway to release people from being a mamzer. Now we are seeing rabbis who look for technicalities to create problems that did not previously exist. They sell everybody the Brooklyn bridge in claiming that they are acting with integrity and are trying to be shomer on the purity of Klal Yisrael. If you ask me they are no more than sadists using the Shulchan Aruch to torture people with.

B"H
[...]
Orthodox Judaism

The principal approach in Orthodox Judaism has been to follow strict rules of evidence that typically render it impossible to prove either that a prior marriage ever existed or that a child was born of relations outside that marriage. An example is a contemporary responsum by the well-known Israeli Posek Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef to Rabbi Grubner of Detroit, Michigan, establishing an impossibility to prove mamzer status in a situation where the evidence might appear to be clear-cut. The case involved the daughter of a woman who had been married by a Haredi rabbi to a husband who subsequently converted to Christianity and refused to participate in a Jewish divorce. The mother eventually divorced and remarried civilly and had the daughter years later. The daughter, who had been raised as an Orthodox Jew and attended a Haredi day school, brought up the question of her status herself prior to an impending marriage.

Rabbi Yosef proceeded systematically to disqualify evidence that a prior marriage had ever taken place. The mother's evidence was immediately disqualified as an interested party. The ketubah (Jewish marriage contract/certificate) was never found. The rabbi who performed the marriage was contacted, but Rabbi Yosef wrote that his testimony could not be accepted without the ketubah, and in any event required corroboration by a second witness. Attempts to contact the husband were abandoned after an adversarial conversation with his new, non-Jewish wife. Thus, Rabbi Yosef concluded there was insufficient evidence that a valid prior marriage had ever taken place.

Rabbi Yosef then proceeded to establish the possibility that the former husband might be the daughter's father. The mother testified that her former husband occasionally brought alimony payments and came for visitation in person and hence the two were sometimes at least momentarily alone together. Applying an ancient rule that when a husband and wife are known to be alone together behind a closed door the law presumes sexual intercourse may well have taken place, Rabbi Yosef concluded that it was possible the former husband was the daughter's father and hence Jewish law, which very strongly construes all evidence in favor of birth within marriage, had to presume that he was. Thus, Rabbi Yosef concluded that there was insufficient evidence of either a former marriage or that the new husband was the father, and hence he concluded that no evidence of mamzerut had occurred.

Conservative Rabbi Daniel Nevins, commenting on this case, noted that the box of traditional tools Rabbi Yosef brought to bear for discrediting evidence of mamzer status may be sufficiently robust as to cover virtually all cases of inquiry in the types of situations a congregational rabbi would be likely to experience. [3] Nonetheless, Orthodox authorities hold that while contemporary rabbis have authority to refine procedural rules such as rules of evidence, they do not have the authority to abolish biblically mandated categories or procedures entirely.
[...]
In Israeli Law

In the State of Israel, religious courts handle matters of marriage, divorce, and personal status in accordance with religious law, so the law of Mamzerut is also Israeli law for Jews, including secular Jews. Because of the severe disabilities of mamzer status with respect to marriage, the Israeli civil authorities have taken the position that the paternity of a child born within a marriage should not be challenged in any court, in order to avoid creating a body of evidence that might be used to declare the child a mamzer or create difficulties for a future marriage.

A recent case, involving a child born eight months and two weeks after a divorce, indicates that the issue raises strong feelings within Israeli society. [5]

The existence of the category of Mamzer, and the disabilities inherent in it, is one of the arguments frequently used by Israeli secularist such as former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni, who call for separation of religion and state and for the institution of civil marriage - since "it is utterly monstrous and unacceptable that the lives of people be ruined and their basic right to create a family with the spouse of their choice be denied due to antiquated, inhuman religious laws which mean absolutely nothing to them".[citation needed]

An extensive report on the issue of Civil Marriage in Israel, written by Prof. Pinhas Shifman and published in July 2001 by ACRI (Association for Civil Rights in Israel), mentions Mamzerim among the categories of Israelis whose basic right to marry a spouse of their choice is denied by the religious monopoly over marriage [1].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamzer

Thus we see that such rulings risk causing rabbanut to lose any legal powers it now holds in the state of Israel.
And it is not that the ruling is correct but the law needs to be distorted for the greater good but rather the ruling is incorrect and is seemingly based on power strugle between chareidi and mizrachi rabbis plus it has the potential to do much damage to the image of Judaism and consequently further deminish the place of Judaism in Israeli society.

There is another issue with this Rav that is very troubling. The fact that it is known that the chaplaincy at that time went for outside help in these matters to make sure that they were acting in accordance with halacha, That in itself should have given the chaplancy as having a chazaka of being erlicher according to all opinions. why would signed documents from the army chaplancy not be enough? These rulings totally ignore the concept of chazaka. In the end these people are going to reduce us into a nation of safeg gerim and mamzerim.

Ultra Orthodoxy is a farse and they do nothing but harm others.

Perhaps this guy can solve the Chababalovitchers' problem. If he can bring them back to life twelve years after they die..........

Perhaps this guy can solve the Chababalovitchers' problem. If he can bring them back to life twelve years after they die..........

Posted by: PITA | May 22, 2008
----------------------------------------------
Naw, I do not think so. But his CV would look good if he was applying for a job doing investigations for life insurance companies.

This is not what I signed up for, when I pray for "techiyat hamatim" in the amidah.

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