Design Firm Files Suit Against Agriprocessors – Claims Rubashkin Owes More Than $270,000 In Unpaid Bills

A Kansas City design firm that has designed hundreds of package labels for Agriprocessors filed suit yesterday in…

…Federal court alleging Agriprocessors owes it more than $270,000 in past due bills.

The Des Moines Register reports:

Agriprocessors, Inc. in Postville owes more than $270,000 to a Kansas-based graphic design firm that has decorated packages for hundreds of its meat products, according to a federal lawsuit filed Tuesday.

The lawsuit by Creative Source Group, Inc. seeks reimbursement for allegedly unpaid bills from the kosher meat processor, including some the lawsuit says are more than 60 days overdue.

Creative Source Group has performed graphic design work for Agriprocessors since 2005 as part of a spoken agreement, the lawsuit alleges.

The Overland, Kansas design firm features several of the package designs prominently on its Web site.

The “Aaron’s Best” product line includes corned beef, turkey breast, beef salami, chicken, turkey patties and beef franks.

A tagline below the pictured products boasts that Creative Source Group has provided “brand enhancement and package design for a family of over 500 products.”

The lawsuit does not mention the May 12 federal immigration raid at the plant that netted 389 suspected illegal immigrant workers. The bust also exposed allegations of worker abuse and fraud among the plant managers, though no one from the management has been charged.

A spokesman for Agriprocessors was not immediately available.

The most recent monthly invoice sent to Agriprocessors was for $20,257.15, the lawsuit alleges. Officials with Creative Source Group have requested a total of $270,218.07 plus interest and other costs.

The new packaging done by Creative Source Group won a ReBrand Award in 2006. Here are before and after pictures and, below them, an explanation of the changes:

Summary:

Challenge - Aaron's Best Glatt Kosher packaging was dated and lacked a clear brand identity. Inconsistent design and type fonts, plus lack of color made Aaron's Best quality products look boring and ordinary at point-of-sale. In addition consumers complained that product selection was often confusing because of the black background used on all beef - chicken - turkey and beef & poultry blended products.

Strategy - In order to maintain years of brand equity the client requested that Creative Source Group keep the existing Aaron's Best logo. For consistent placement of product names CSG created a decorative ribbon, then positioned it below or to the side of the logo. Easy to read Baskerville bold italic was selected as the standard font. The black background was retained then enhanced with a second color to make consumer selection easy. BLUE for beef - PURPLE for chicken - GREEN for turkey - and BLACK for beef and poultry blends. Packaging graphic standards were established to ensure consistent brand identity for line extensions and new products.

Result - Aaron's Best re-branding has been extremely well received by retailers and consumers. Sale of fresh tray pack chicken alone has increased more than 25% since the introduction of the new packaging.

Credits:

Client: Rubashkin's AgriProcessors - www.rubashkins.com

Creative Firm: Creative Source Group - www.csgkc.com
Senior Graphic Designer: Brent Kallenbach

[Hat Tips: Arieh and Steve.]

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

Why don't we sponsor a contest to design replacement packaging? Too bad typepad doesn't support graphics.

[John K. Diamond]

This is yet another, in a very long list of reasons, why the OU MUST pull its "Hechsher" from ALL Rubashkin slaughterhouses.

Cheating a "non-Jew" in business is a "Chillul HaShem", which brings the "Honor and Glory" of HaShem and his Torah into disrepute in the eyes of the nations.

Personally, I like Shmarya's "Aaron's Cruelest" package better. At least it's accurate. Their packaging labels chicken and veal as "glatt" with false sodium levels. Besides, most of what's labeled kosher is treife.

[steve]

9:32 AM was me.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

how appropriate

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

I am reposting my comments here as this post is the more appropriate place for discussion:

This non-payment for services rendered is just like Rubashkin's withholding of wages (late or missing paychecks, "immigration fees," etc.) from AgriProcessors' non-Jewish workers. From the Chabad/charedi viewpoint, the mitzvah of bal tolin (not withholding payment for work done beyond the day of expected payment) only applies to Jewish labor. They fail to realize that by acting in way that makes this discrimination against "avodat akum" (their view, not mine), they are committing a monstrous chillul HaShem.

[yidandahalf]

The time is right to move for amendment to the Humane Slaughter Act for religious exemption and to force a change in labelling. All those in favour please post your ideas. Those of us working on this welcome any serious input. To those of you out there who have been involved in producing videos; more are needed. No longer can we sit back and wait for others to clean this mess up. When called upon to help we must pitch in.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

vehogeetoh boy yeuymam valoyleh!
a shiur in holokho from the holy alte (zachen) rebbe's bais midrash in liady:
being that the aggrieved party here wasn't adam (ayn hem niqroeem adam), it's a no brainer. the money went to support kosher yidden, and therefore is kosher for consumption by the thief, simply put: hefker.
if the case was the other way around, and the amount in dispute was limited to 1 prutoh, no doubt the principal of creative source would be choyov meessoh, for depriving holy yidden -originating of the holy semen of noga-, of parnosseh of the amount of 1 prutoh.
then again, if he himself was a yidden,
u can't kill him, and it will depend wether he is frum or not, and to what extent, wether his spark in his neshome is dim or ablaze.... etc... ad nauseam.

[yidandahalf]

It is also time for we as Jews to take kashrus back from the crooks who hijacked it and turned it into ka$hru$ and "The Kosherization of America".

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yid & 1/2: In the "good old days," on the Lower East Side, Jewish housewives boycotted kosher meat because of price goughing. The butchers caved in. In Europe, a rabbi declared fish "chometz" one year because of price goughing. The fishmongers caved. 'Twas ever thus.

[yidandahalf]

It's true and I remember once when I was a kid I told an old Jewish lady my grandfather, a Galitzianer had worked in a kosher meat market under a shochet in Paterson and she was disgusted and put off. [ Well she was probably a Yekke ;) ]. They made and make good money but still.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H

This is yet another, in a very long list of reasons, why the OU MUST pull its "Hechsher" from ALL Rubashkin slaughterhouses.

I would have that this (if true) is reason for Rubashkin Inc. to pay the designer they money they owe him and interest and penalties if any are imposed by the court and have nothing to do with kashrut of the meat itself but surely John K. Diamond knows better. Being a vegan gives him a unique perspective on kashrus of meat.:-)

Cheating a "non-Jew" in business is a "Chillul HaShem", which brings the "Honor and Glory" of HaShem and his Torah into disrepute in the eyes of the nations.

Posted by: John K. Diamond | May 21, 2008 at 09:29 AM

Whoever cheats a non Jew in business will or does cheat his fellow Jews too and must do teshuvah and return the money and ask forgiveness however the meat he produces still doesn't magically become non kosher because of this.
And being that this is a civil case in a civil court they have to be found liable by the preponderance of the evidence thus even
if it would be the responsibility of the O.U. to remove their heksher from Rubashkin for this (which it is not) I'd think they should have at least be encouraged to wait till the end of the trial.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

.....however the meat he produces still doesn't magically become non kosher because of this.

no, it dopes not! but in this case, the meat is treif already for being handled by aqum, minim, this is zivchei meissim and has no room on holy yidden's tables.

.....however the meat he produces still doesn't magically become non kosher because of this.

Interesting.

If a Jew runs a bakery or a deli and has the shop open on Shabbat, the shop can't get certified - even if everything in the shop is totally kosher.

However, if a Jew runs a slaughterhouse and (allegedly, all) hires illegal aliens, doesn't pay the people they contracted to design their art, allowed animals to be abused, allowed workers to be abused, etc . . . they can still be certified kosher.

I'm not saying that the deli/bakery that is open on Shabbat should be certified . . . but if they can't be certified because they are breaking the rules - even though their products are technically kosher - then a certain slaughterhouse should not be given certification either.

[John K. Diamond]

To the previous poster:

Thank you very much for your post!!!

It hit the nail right on the head and saved me the time for responding to Reb. Ariel.

[yidandahalf]

The meat industry is like drug trafficking. Everybody makes money on it. And the end users apparently can't get enough of either one. Bakery goods they can live without so nowhere for the crows to land. KA$HRU$

[steve]

however the meat he produces still doesn't magically become non kosher because of this.

Rev. Ariel, just like a Jewish idolator like yourself doesn't magically become a non-Jew? Tell that to the Rambam:

Hilchos Avoda Zara 2:8

ישראל שעבד עבודה זרה--הרי הוא כגוי לכל דבר

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H

.....however the meat he produces still doesn't magically become non kosher because of this.

Interesting.

If a Jew runs a bakery or a deli and has the shop open on Shabbat, the shop can't get certified - even if everything in the shop is totally kosher.

However, if a Jew runs a slaughterhouse and (allegedly, all) hires illegal aliens, doesn't pay the people they contracted to design their art, allowed animals to be abused, allowed workers to be abused, etc . . . they can still be certified kosher.

I'm not saying that the deli/bakery that is open on Shabbat should be certified . . . but if they can't be certified because they are breaking the rules - even though their products are technically kosher - then a certain slaughterhouse should not be given certification either.

Posted by: | May 21, 2008 at 12:37 PM

To the previous poster:

Thank you very much for your post!!!

It hit the nail right on the head and saved me the time for responding to Reb. Ariel.

Posted by: John K. Diamond | May 21, 2008 at 12:43 PM


Should a dentist with a billing dispute with some medical equipment supplier get his dental lisence pulled until the billing dispute is resolved?
How about a hairstylist? What about a lawyer who didn't pay his cellphone bill? etc.
The cases you mention involving public intentional violation of Shabbos are different type of cases because here one is
showing he doesn't care about laws between man and G-d even those as important as Shabbat which is compared to prohibition of idol worship in its severity.
By violating Shabbos publicly a Jew shows that he doesn't accept care about ritual laws and thus can't be trusted with his kashrut unless proven otherwise.
Having unresolved civil disputes or infractions against draconian uneconomic labor or immigration regulations is not in the same category.

[steve]

Should a dentist with a billing dispute with some medical equipment supplier get his dental lisence pulled until the billing dispute is resolved?

What are you comparing? In kashrus, you need to be able to trust the supplier. It is a question of neemanus. If the dentist is a crook, does that mean he will pull out the wrong tooth? Is this the only issue where Rubashkin's integrity has come into question? Halevai! I don't need to repeat the laundry list. Perhaps Rubashkin should be the exclusive meat supplier to all meshichists and eloikists, and they can use Rubashkin's shochtim to shecht and sacrifice to their rebbe-god. In the meantime, let the real Jews eat kosher.

Should a dentist with a billing dispute with some medical equipment supplier get his dental lisence pulled until the billing dispute is resolved?
How about a hairstylist? What about a lawyer who didn't pay his cellphone bill? etc.

A billing dispute is one thing, outright not paying for services rendered for no apparent reason (ie cheating the contractor) is another thing.

A dentist/hairdresser who is not satisfied with the products deliverd by the supplier/who paid for X number of items and received fewer/who might have been overcharged by the supplier, etc. Have legitimate billing disputes and no one is going to have a problem with that.

However, the dentist/hairdresser who receives exactly what was ordered and agreed on and simply decides not to pay even though he/she can is acting unethically. I'm not a dentist or hairdresser, but it's possible that such activity could violate the professional ethics of their certifying agencies and might at least warrant a censure. I don't know. If they get sued for it, it might have a bearing. If they do it enough, they could possibly get their licenses pulled. I doubt their professional organizations would stand for someone doing this on a routine basis.

By violating Shabbos publicly a Jew shows that he doesn't accept care about ritual laws and thus can't be trusted with his kashrut unless proven otherwise.
Having unresolved civil disputes or infractions against draconian uneconomic labor or immigration regulations is not in the same category.

What about when their (alleged) violations of the law and their business contracts are made public? What about when they have been called on it publicly, and then do it again and are called on it publicly again?

It's no longer hidden or private. Doing the same thing over and over again is pretty much a public admission that one is not willing to comply.

Draconian law or not, they broke the law. Personally, I wish the illegals who come here looking for work didn't have to be deported. I look at the young American citizens that I see on my way to work just hanging out on the corner all day, not working, while people like the illegals risk their lives to come here to do even menial labor. However, I also know that if I run a business, it is illegal to hire them and I'll get in big trouble for doing so - no matter how much I'd rather they be able to work here.

[steve]

Chief IDF rabbi answers criticism from Hamodia about his alleged Shabbos desecration:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3545835,00.html

[Yosef ben Matitya]

the main thing here, is throwing the minim out of the pale of judaism completely.

i don't want these self forgiving trolls, self acknowledged swindlers and their idiot friends like -jon voight- representing me, nor my family. not at the municipal level, nor state nor federal level.
they are nothing but an embarrassment and an eyesore; a total distortion of our identity.
their hanuka menoras are an abomination,
their very self is an eyesore, their creeds are detestable and their gross acts of deceipt are reprehensible.
suru mimmeni kol poalei ahven.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H
It may be a cause of the government that is forced to enforce idiotic regulations to pull their operating lisence but not a cause for a kashrus certifier to pull their kosher certification.
If however the kosher certification agency would be part of Postville or Iowa Beis Din and thus responsible for everything that goes on there not just kosher and if repeatedly violating idiotic government regulations would have lead to collective punishment by the government on the entire Jewish community it would perhaps be wise for them to pull the kosher certification.
Since O.U. doing so would simply send them to find a comparable universaly recognized heksher (O.K. Kaf - K etc)and there is no issue of a collective punishment of the whole Jewish community in this society there is no reason for the agency to be Uncle Sam's lapdog and enforce his laws.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H
On the other hand if a company consistently cheats supliers abuses workers cheats them out of their pay etc. (not just violates immigration, wage floor/celing laws and other such communist nonsense).
And this is proven not just alegations.
Perhaps the Beis Din that has enough respect in the community should ban their meat unless/untill they clean up the mess because
while all non Jewish /non frum companies daily break tons of communist like government regulations such as described above because these regulations are like outlawing the law of gravity - silly and emposible to enforce because they violate basic economic natural laws and thus most other companies don't observe them either and it is not a chilul Hashem for Rubashkin
to violate them but cheating or abusing workers is against the norms of universal morality and basic mentchlichkeit (humane ethical behavior) and this is a teribe chilul Hashem and hurts Jews and frum Jews and Chabadniks everywhere.
Thus if a Beis Din can stop this by banning the meat perhaps they should do it if it will have no effect except the honor of that Beis Din or kosher certifier being hurt by the company ignoring them and finding someone else to certify them (which is easy since the meat itself is intrinsicly kosher)and most consumers continueing to buy the meat this shouldn't be done because it is unwise.
Which is why O.U. haven't done so.

[Another view]

Many people are questioning the "Kosher" status of issues brought to light in the recent Immigration Raid in Agriprocessors. More than any of these issues, it is unKosher to assume guilt when an accusation is made. This is a cornerstone of justice - presume innocence until guilt is proven...

This is definitely the case when the accusations that have been made are based on sources which contradict themselves and each other throughout the affidavit, display shocking ignorance of the plant and its operation, and make claims based on hearsay that stretch the limits of belief. Two small examples of this:

Someone claiming to be an employee and identified as Source #11 speaks about turkey processing operations, which take place on the south side of the tracks that run by the plant. He was shown a map and identified a number of buildings as being where the turkey production takes place. He knows this because he has friends that work there. The same claim is made by Source #7, who was also shown a map and identified a number of buildings on the south side of the tracks as being used in turkey processing.

In truth, no processing of any kind takes place anywhere on the south side of the tracks. Turkey processing takes place in the same location as the chicken processing, on the north side of the tracks, something obvious to anyone employed at the plant for even a short time. Even employees working in beef production would be aware of this, as the live poultry passes the beef plant on the way to the poultry department, both of which are on the same side of the tracks: the north side.

An employee, purported to be a former supervisor at the plant and identified as Source #7, makes the claim that employees who were allegedly hired by a supervisor without any papers and paid in cash wore orange hats, while employees who had lawful papers wore green hats. Aside from the fact that it is highly unlikely that undocumented workers would agree to wear their legal status on their heads, Source #7 correctly identifies the significance of the hat colors later on in the affidavit as differentiating between employees working on the line, inspectors, supervisors etc. He identifies orange hats as upper-management, and green hats as team leaders.

If both claims are true, an employee wearing an orange hat is an undocumented worker paid in cash - or upper management. Employees wearing green hats are either documented employees or team leaders.

That having been said, I would like to point out the following:

The company filled out all the required paperwork on employees, and demanded all the required ID from them. Many employees were turned away for having invalid IDs. The affidavit itself describes an attempt to get hired which failed until the government supplied the applicant with a valid Social Security card. The fact that so many were employed is a tribute to the quality of their deceit, not a willful transgression on the part of the company.

The affidavit contains allegations of abuse of employees. The first, a particularly offensive anecdote, tells of a floor supervisor, identified as a Chassidic Jew, duct-taping an employee's eyes and striking him with a meat hook. A convenient qualifier, "apparently not causing serious injuries," neatly avoids the possibility of verifying the story by asking local doctors or hospitals. Another story follows that one, also alleging abuse by a Chassidic Jewish floor supervisor.

One flaw with both stories - there are no Chassidic floor supervisors in the plant, nor have there ever been.

Other abuses that have been or may be discussed in the media are most definitely extremely rare exceptions to a very normal work environment or fabrications. Anyone who has visited the plant, visitors, inspectors, Rabbis, students, can all attest to the fact that the work environment was and is one that did not contain any abuse, and that the workers worked hard but were consistently in good cheer. Any abuses reported to management are immediately addressed, regardless of the position of the person submitting the complaint, or that of the one who committed the abuse.

The story of the drug lab has hopefully been rejected by most people. It has been over a week since the raid and no statement by the authorities have mentioned finding such an operation. The allegation is a preposterous one to begin with - the plant is constantly monitored by the plant authorities, the government, and numerous third parties. For something like that to have taken place without comment would mean either that these authorities chose to ignore a drug operation (highly unlikely) or that they did not notice (again, highly unlikely). The same holds true for the allegations that weapons were brought in by employees.

The bomb-material story is difficult to decipher by one not in possession of the facts. The affidavit discusses a potential explosive device. A pipe is a potential explosive device. If it were filled with explosive material it would be considered an actual explosive device. Also, the document does not claim that it was fabricated in Agriprocessors, only that Agri was the most likely source of the material. I don't know how that is a crime, seeing as many legitimate objects are potentially explosive devices.

A possibly related fact is that on all the doors in the plant there are small pipes containing parchment scrolls with verses from the Bible written on them. This is part of the Jewish religion, and is mentioned in the Bible. During the raid of the plant, an investigator reportedly examined an empty "scroll-container pipe," commenting that it might be an explosive.

The credibility of the documents are also brought into question by the fact that among the arrest warrants issued for names the government believed to be illegal was at least one (that I know of) issued for someone who is in fact a born and bred American. He had to hire lawyers, and it took a few days to clear up the matter. He says the warrant is now part of his permanent record.

I have not seen many media outlets with the courage to question the allegations. Most news sources seem content thinking up attention-grabbing headlines, rehashing old attacks on the company, and interviewing press-informed legislators, instead of practicing honest investigative and informative journalism.

Blindly assuming guilt without any understanding of the situation or investigation into the claims is not only unKosher. It's wrong.

[John K. Diamond]

It's quite obvious that Reb Ariel's memory of "Pirkei Avos" is lacking, where it says in Chapter Four, verse 5: Rabbi Yochanan ben Beroka said: Whoever desecrates the Name of Heaven in secret, they will exact punishment from Him in public; unintentional or intentional, both are alike regarding desecration of the Name.

This can be found in the Complete ArtScroll Siddur on Page 565.

The commentary on this verse (Pages 565-566) says:

Desecration of the Name involves the sort of conduct that makes onlookers think or say that people who claim to be observant Jews act in an unworthy manner. For some of the great Talmudic sages, even to take a few paces without studying Torah constituted a desecration. For ordinary people, rudeness, dishonesty and the like would be a desecration. One who does such things that bring G-d's Name into disrepute shows contempt for G-d and this is the most serious of all sins, especially because of the effect it has on others.

The longstanding and consistent animal and human abuses by the Rubashkin animal enterprises and their equally consistent refusal to do Teshuvah and mend their ways, fits into exactly what Rabbi Yochanan ben Beroka brought to our attention centuries ago.

Such enterprises do not warrant Kosher certification, period.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

no reason for the agency to be Uncle Sam's lapdog and enforce his laws?

not for stray bitches. those don't have to.
but human beings? most definitely.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

It's quite obvious that Reb Ariel's memory of "Pirkei Avos"

sure; he is not into avos, but ovos.

[MP]

I am sure none of you עמי הארץ know this, but in these matters payment terms go according to מנהג הסוחרים , which - had any of you had a job, you would know - are very commonly 90 days and more. In today's environment, any customer that pays their bills within 90 days is considered a good customer. If the design firm in question was not happy with this arrangement, they would never let the bills clime to this amount and would have stopped work long ago. In any event, it is very likely that they are only suing to protect their money in case Agriprocessors goes out of business ( ח"ו ) as a result of the latest legal troubles.

Once again, to all of you that decided to act as judge & jury against another Jew with zero first hand knowledge in the case: please drop dead and ימח שמכם

[MP]

Let me be specific: Scott, 'John K. Diamond', 'Yosef ben Matitya' and 'steve', drop dead and ימח שמכם

[Shmarya]

Let me be specific: Scott, 'John K. Diamond', 'Yosef ben Matitya' and 'steve', drop dead and ימח שמכם

Words of 'wisdom' from Chabad.

[mordecai]

I think I will become a Buddhist if only to contmplate the interesting ironies of Karma. The Catholics have Heaven and Hell but that is frankly unimaginative.

How will the Rubashkins be reborn if it turns out that Karma is true. I would suggest that Aaron Rubashkin might be born as a baby calf to die horribly in his own slaughterhouse.

Maybe he will be reborn as a chicken eating undigested pieces of corn from the manure of pigs.

Yes, Buddhism is becoming more appealing to me.

[mordecai]

MP:

Please include me on your "drop dead" list.

[steve]

To Menachem Lubinsky aka "Another View",

If these were the first set of allegations against Rubashkin, then we would all take a step back and reevaluate the credibility of the accusations. However, when you are dealing with a company and a family that is consistently in the news because of health, safety, human and animal violations, one can no longer close his eyes and say "innocent until proven guilty." It's like Yudi Kolko who had forty years worth of accusations against him and his defenders are still claiming "innocent until proven guilty." Just like one has to protect himself and his children by removing a Kolko from teaching, so must one protect his physical and spiritual health by permanently removing Rubashkin products from his home. To continue to bury one's head in the sand and claim "innocent until proven guilty" is extremely irresponsible. I agree that the whole story has yet to be told, but I have a feeling that it will get a lot worse for Rubashkin before it gets any better. Eventually all the positive spin you try to put on this scandal and fiasco will have zero effect.

[steve]

MP stands for Mental Patient. You can curse me all you want (orerecha arur) but I'll give you a bracha. Refuah Sheleima!

[John K. Diamond]

To all on the "Drop Dead" list:

We must take this villification in good stride and feel sorry for the one issuing it.

During the interviews by Merle Miller, which led to the book "Plain Speaking" being published in 1972, he asked Dean Acheson, Harry Truman's former Secretary of State the following question regarding events that followed Truman's firing of MacArthur:

"Mr. Secretary, I understand that in this period, during the uproar over MacArthur's dismissal, a group of citizens in Ponca City, Oklahoma, burned a dummy of you in effigy. Do you remember that?

Mr. Acheson: "I'm afraid not. It would be a difficult thing to remember all of the times things like that happenned in those ... troubled years. I became quite used to being villified. It has its stimulating aspects, and for all I know, it may even be good for the liver."

[MP]

mordecai, I am happy to oblige: drop dead and ימח שמך

steve, אוררך ארור only applies to those that curse Jews, not mosrim and rodfim and sonei yisrael like you and your ilk. May G-d obliterate you from the midst of עם קדוש ישראל רחמנים בני רחמנים ומאמינים בני מאמינים

All of you: I am not surprised that not one of you lowlifes even attempted to find an excuse for acting as judge and jury in a case you have no knowledge of. And I do not expect you to. Ditto for the מנהג הסוחרים point.

(I am not even sure why I keep cursing you with death - what can possible be a bigger curse than to simply live as 'you'? On the second thought, nah, die virmin)

[mordecai]

I read the book PLAIN SPEAKING several times. Truman was a big believer in learning from history.

Jews who live in the shtetl of the mind like MP must travel through life seeing an antisemite behind every tree. Every non-Jew is a goy and potential enemy.

In this world-view all Jews must stick together wherein it is suppossed that we must pretend we are all pious and moral creatures.

When a Jew is caught red-handed the technique is to go on the offensive with cries of anti-semitic governmental regulations and the like.

The shtetl Jew fears the next pogrom and hates Jews like me. But really it is the failure of the shtetl Jew to castigate the likes of Rubashkin that engenders anti-semitism, it is the Jew who goes to Postville and starts to "hondle" (bargain down) the locals that engeners anti-semitism.

I read with stark amazement in the book "Postville" about the unabashed hondling of the locals. But it would be the self-same shtetl Jew who while engaging in hondling would shriek anti-semite to the observer who would refer to hondling a "jewing down."

It is a type of shtetl Jew that in truth have caused our people grief. As I mentioned in another post the Catholic Church made no points in the long run by protecting pervert priests. They only delayed and intensified the outcry.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H
Dear MP
I want to write you something, but in private not here in comments
can you please email me at :

Ariel770@gmail.com
or send me a message thru my myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/rabbiariel

[MP]

Ariel,

You are a nice guy, but I couldn't possibly disagree with your beliefs more than I do. It is true that you have lately backtracked a bit from the previously outrageous 'g-d' position by claiming that you were merely quoting the pasuk, but the bizui talmid chochom you have already committed was really horrible. Moreover, if it was just sensationalism on your part the whole time, that is even worse. Also, you provide fodder for lowlifes like Scott שר"י and that may be the worst part of it all (may that be the only joy in his miserable life)!

I sincerely hope you take my words to heart, travel to the Ohel with a minyan and ask the Rebbe's forgiveness, as is mandated by Shulchan Aruch in such cases.

I will be happy to email you in private after you do the above in public.

[MP]

'mordechai',
I know one can be evil and stupid at the same time, but you really take the cake on both counts. I never intimated that 'evil government of the goyim' was out to get the Rubashkins. What I DID say was that these Jews are in trouble and the lot of you:
a) found them guilty as charged;
b) gleefully rejoice in their anguish;
c) make explicit calls for their prosecution.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

More than any of these issues, it is unKosher to assume guilt when an accusation is made. This is a cornerstone of justice - presume innocence until guilt is proven...

A presumption of innocence applies only in a court of law.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Blindly assuming guilt without any understanding of the situation or investigation into the claims is not only unKosher. It's wrong.

Twelve agencies of the U.S. Government investigated improprieties at Agriprocessors for six months. Are we to believe that all of this is one big fairy tale?

I sincerely hope you take my words to heart, travel to the Ohel with a minyan and ask the Rebbe's forgiveness, as is mandated by Shulchan Aruch in such cases.

Or he could go to the Our Lady of the Rosary Shrine and ask Mary for her blessings . . . kind of the same thing.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Let me be specific: Scott, 'John K. Diamond', 'Yosef ben Matitya' and 'steve', drop dead....

I can't wait to see you on the cover of next month's issue of Internet Toughguy magazine.

[MP]

Nigritude Ultramarine,
You don't have to believe it's all a fairy tale. But, if you were Jewish, you would be obligated to:
1) hope the allegations will be proved wrong;
2) not condemn them at the least before they are found guilty in the court of law;
3) pray that they may be delivered form this terrible situation.

[MP]

"Or he could go to the Our Lady of the Rosary Shrine and ask Mary for her blessings . . . kind of the same thing."

Alas, asking for forgiveness at a grave of the injured party is a din in the Shulchan Aruch (not that this means anything to you)

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

But, if you were Jewish, you would be obligated to:

If I were Jewish? Methinks you are projecting. Anyway, questioning someone's ancestry is so low, it doesn't give anyone the impression that you are a religious person at all.

1) hope the allegations will be proved wrong;
2) not condemn them at the least before they are found guilty in the court of law;
3) pray that they may be delivered form this terrible situation.

Being that we are people of the Book, I think it would be fitting for you to provide written sources for each point enumerated above.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Even the OU has its doubts:

Rabbi Menachem Genack, who oversees the Orthodox Union's certification system, said these accusations are serious and may have bearing on the plant's kosher certification.

http://www.gazetteonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080520/NEWS/228426413/1006/news

I guess Rabbi Genack is a big goy too.