Crown Heights On The Edge Of Riots

I just got the following report from a Crown Heights resident who…

…asked me if I was following recent developments in Crown Heights.

I asked him what new happened over Shabbos. What follows is his repy:

a fight Friday night at about 1am. not sure who started, a Jew and a African American arrested. both were let out.

on shabbas afternoon rock throwing at a shul (bais shmuel, located in yeshiva chovovua torah on the corner of eastern parkway and albany).

tonight, black male assaulted a Jewish man as he was on his way home from Shul. NYPD officers released the attacker and attempted to arrest the Jewish Crown Heights resident who was pinning him down.

a knife was pulled on a jewish women i think everyone is ok

the kid beat up Thursday is using a tube to eat, his jaw is broken. people are really scared to walk alone. its very bad.

I think a few things should be clear.

1. If cops don't get a handle on this soon, there will be massive riots in Crown Heights. Look for that to happen on the first really hot summer night.
2. Jews – who scream antisemitism at every turn – are actually seeing some antisemitism combined with crime. In other words, many of these same criminals who attack Jews also attack Blacks.
3. Police don't like it when one of their own – or a child of one of their own – are attacked and beaten. Jews attacked and assaulted the son of a policeman who was doing nothing other than walking home after school – and then the Crown Heights Jewish community refused to give police information on the Jewish attackers, claiming mesiara law, the haredi Omerta, as their reason. How do you think police would react to this? How about local Blacks?
4. In other words, the assault on that Black teenager and the reaction of Crown Heights Jews to that assault has all but guaranteed police anger and Black riots.
5. None of this is meant to justify riots, God forbid, or antisemitism.
6. Antisemitism does not flourish in a vacuum, and riots would not happen if there were not the widespread perception in the Black community that Jews both get special favors from the government (which, when it comes to government programs like housing is largely true) and treat non-Jews as less than equals. Jews and blacks live side-by-side in Crown Heights but have almost no interaction. Not an occasional game of cards, a shared baseball game or even just a brief chat over the fence. Jews walk past elderly Blacks without saying hello just as Jews walk past 17 year old Black males without saying hello – it is not an issue of fear, it is an issue of fundamental lack of respect.

If Jews want to head off a riot, they'll have to act fast, and that action must include cooperating with police and reaching out to Black neighbors.

The problem is, Jewish Crown Heights is fractured, divided, and ripped apart by turf wars and political disputes while at the same time being led by a generation of droning midgets. I don't think the community has what it takes to stave off massive violence.

Either someone takes charge immediately and forces change or the whole place, I fear, will go up in smoke.

Comments

[uncle joe mccarthy]

allow me to be the first to say...the jews in crown heights are idiots

they held a protest on friday, in which one protestor started screaming about arabs, and others started a chant, "they can go home" which sounded way to close to "nigger go home"...and what does that mean, "they can go home"?

why doesnt crown heights have citizen patrols?

and the fact remains, many, if not all the frum yidden in nyc, do indeed see blacks as less than human.

if they really wanted to head off violence, they would have a sit down with someone like sharpton and have a march of solidarity...

[ben chosen/g-dfather]

Uncle Joe

They were screaming "VEGA go home" he is a police Sargent in 71st "not they"

[formely frum]

Then bottom line is the the jews in Crown Heights are hypocrites. How could they demand the police act fast when a black attacks a Jew but when a Jew attacks a black they hinder the investigation. By doing this they are saying to the world Jewish blood is not cheap but others blood is cheap.

Just think what our reaction would be if we heard the blacks of crown heights say, we know who did this but we cannot say who it because of mesiara law, I think the jews of crown heights would riot. To tell you the truth I think the should and see how the jews react.

This false excuse of mesiara law has to stop it will be down fall of us all. It was not created to protect criminals.

Of by the way, how can any government protect its citizens if every one on the citizens would never help the police turn anybody in be a witness to any crime claiming mesiara law?

[Cee]

You are just as bad as the media. Crown Heights Jews have had dozens and dozens of violent attacks perpetuated on them, many resulting in serious broken bones, staples, stiches or worse (Klein.)

Yet you can trod out one attack in which the man walked away from. no stiches, no staples, and he, unlike that boy last week, is not eating through a tube. You will take that one attack, by two idiot messup shimra boneheads and use it to equalize and justify the tension now? 1 attack versus 35 is a fair balance? It's our fault?

It's one thing if you have religious and moral issues with Chabad, Kol Hakovod, thats your right, but to so easily dismiss what we are going through here with the recent attacks is disgusting.

[AVROHOM]

YOU NEVER cease to amze me how you became a filthy antisemite! you and ryour readers are haters of observant jews no matter what the isuse. How dare your filthy antisemite blame CH for this? YOu antisemite have not even reported the attack on the boy thursday night that was left unconscious!!! One case and you go all obver the yourself; adozen of ongonig attacks on jews and NOTHING! no grand jury no attempt to punish the perptrators. You prove to me the words of chazal how a person that milgns jewish leaders will become a hater of G_d and it's people. Youand your readers are filthy despicable ANTISMITES!

[formely frum]

To Cee

I think you miss the point, if the crown heights jews want to police to protect them and capture the thugs who beat Jews, then they must cooperate with the police when Jew
attacks a goy/black person.

[formely frum]

question to AVROHOM,

Should they arrest the perpetrator who attack the black man? and why does not the jews practice what they preach and show the police and the blacks, we are for justice for all and hand over the jew who attack. Until the community does that shut up about the police not doing anything about the attacks on the jews

there was no newspaper stories of the other attacks you mention the last one was just on Friday included in the articles of the riot.

[natasha]

Don't feel too bad if the Jews of Crown Heights don't respect Blacks. They don't respect other Jews either. They're enough to make a Jew disbelieve, they took advantage of me at a most vulnerable time, and they have stolen from me, lied to me, and come on to me sexually, married rabbis with families. I have finally caught on. As a Jew, my experience, being not one of them, is that they treat me with disprespect, too. They think they are of a dynasty, of blood lines, and that they are superior to other Jews. They are just as rude to me. Like Aba Eban, I agree,(paraphrased), ... the downfall of the Jews will come from within, not from without.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have a non-Chabad acquitance who lived in Crown Hts and moved out due to negative experiences (I don't know the details). But that doesn't justify anti-Semitism. I don't believe, however, that anti-Semitism is always provoked. Often it is the result of ideology. Look at Iran, a country where Jews lived in peace for thousands of years before islam, and Rev. Wrong the Christian Farrakhan. When anti-Semites attack, they first go for people lke Chabad, who are visibly Jewish. They don't stop there, and even if they did, I would rally to them despite my differences with them. Finally, a few a-holes who happen to be black doesn't justify blanket racism against all blacks. You'd be surprised at how are philo-Semitic, or even one of us (halachically Jewish and practising as Jews).

what the hell is chabad still doing in crime hts, why dont the follow all the others and get out of there

[Ariel Sokolovsky http://www.moshiach.ws]

B"H
Religious Jews in Crown Heights, Boston and everywhere should take at least few moments every day to smile and say "hi! how are you? " to people around them when walking to and from shule.
Not enough Jews do this in some places. Being among those who do so it has happened to me few times that gentiles actually asked me about this. Why do their Jewish neighbors ignore their existence. Not even as much as saying "hi. how are you?" when walking to shule.
One of the people who complained to me about this by the way also mentioned to me that he once saw a suspicious Middle Eastern man loitering near our shule and reported him to police and generally considers himself a friend of the Jewish people.
This was in Boston , but I also have had similar conversations in Crown Heights.
Of course this doesn't excuse people who attack Jews and they should be punished to full extent of the law, but it cannot be denied that being friendly or at least polite with your neighbors improves the situation.
Why can't more Jews and Chabadniks in particular emulate the Rebbe's own personal treatment of people Jews and non Jews as is preserved in memory of many people and written up in stories and even recorded on video (see for example http://youtube.com/watch?v=i-etVw9PZUs )
?
Being friendly with ones non jewish neighbors also allows one to have greater success in spreading the knowledge of 7 Noahide Laws ( Noahide.org among them which as the Rebbe points out quoting the Rambam we are all commanded to do.
One should emulate Rambam's own example in treating people Jews and non Jews with kindness and altruism starting with at least what I mention above and progressing more in this direction. Look at it as your own contribution towards redemption when as
described in Yeshayahu (Isaiah)and other prophets there will be peace and cooperation among all people and nations serving G-d together.

[uncle joe mccarthy]

i apologize for misunderstanding the chant..."vega go home" does make more sense

i just dont think screaming at cops solves much.

sit down with the police and organize a community patrol...take matters into your own hands

its what we did in los angeles, and it had great results....crime dropped significantly in the fairfax area after we started the patrols.

[Isa]

That Black that was beaten in Crown Heights wasn't just an ordinary Black...
He is the son of a COP!!!
And Cops stick together...

[Newby]

Why are the Lubab all big talkers about security in Israel, having all the answers blah,blah,blah
But cannot take care of a few thugs? Beat the f'n crap out of them.
Cowards and know-it-alls.

[yudel]

There is no hatred posted by the web master period here. Get off the topic and remember we are trying to have a discussion as lame as it might be sometimes.
Crown Heights is very divisive and fractured. Finger pointing does not solve problems. It just inflames them. There is enough hatred to go around in the Jewish and Black community. Question is -there is a real need to get a real community organizer into the community who can work with everyone.
Did you know people like that exist? And that they are very effective. Not that i expect that to happen but help is there and can be hired to represent the interests of both the black and jewish community.
Even with crazies on both sides the rov of the neighborhood wants peace period. It is always the case. Only reason it does not happen is no one but inexperienced ad hoc people have tried to make headway in the crown heights area. The result is people with no mandate or experience coming in and getting their headlines for being the most moser nefesh.
I am no longer surprized that these matters do not get solutions. Everyone stakes out a turf and their chashivos in the matter.
Ergo--people suffer. It is no different than all the organizations who allege to work in the frum world with at risk. The people in real need never get the help. Why?
People maybe in big trouble but that does not make them stupid. They see who the so-called helpers are and walk away.
Same all over the world. Whether it is Crown Heights or street kids.
You see to help communities or kids you must have someone trained and street smart. Someone who everyone vouches after a meeting that said individual has street creds or creditionals.
Leave it to no one or to the fake suits or fakers from the hood and you have a fire that keeps burning.
Besides lets face it . NO one really cares what happens in crown heights or to street kids. It is all in the category of LO Alenu.

IF that were not the case issues such as Crown Height's neighborhoods, street kids, sexually abused mothers and children long ago would have been dealt with period. To say there is no solution is ludacrious.

Tell the truth with no fanfare we are not interested in helping anyone who is beyond the pale. This is why folks love more princess diana rather than mother teresa.
We all could relate to Diana's clean hands approach but to get dirty hands literally with the forsaken. Well we were happy the late Mother did her work but pleased she never brought it to our door.

Please do not think for one moment that the work the late Princess did was not of great value. I am not discussing that here.

[Chaim Yehoshua]

Chabad clearly has a racism problem, u hear it at the shabbos table, you hear it at the mikva.

Many Lubavitchers would even be upset if their kid married a Jewish Ethiopian

AVROHOM -

YOU NEVER cease to amze me how you became a filthy antisemite! you and ryour readers are haters of observant jews no matter what the isuse. How dare your filthy antisemite blame CH for this? YOu antisemite have not even reported the attack on the boy thursday night that was left unconscious!!! One case and you go all obver the yourself; adozen of ongonig attacks on jews and NOTHING! no grand jury no attempt to punish the perptrators. You prove to me the words of chazal how a person that milgns jewish leaders will become a hater of G_d and it's people. Youand your readers are filthy despicable ANTISMITES!

Seeing as you had to have read the article in order to post this comment, and had to have been reading this page regularly in order to trace Shmarya's turn into "antisemitism" it would then appear that you, too are a reader of this blog. Since both Shmarya and his readers are "filthy despicable ANTISEMITES," then you are are a filthy, despicable, antisemite, too.

This is why you should really choose your words carefully and develop a coherent and logical argument or idea before posting something as harshly critical and condemning as what you wrote above.

[formerly frum now a white supermacist (tough not anti-semitic)]

fucking niggers, losers of the world.

[MP]

ימח שמכם! jewish blood flows and this is what you all write? !!!!
scott זאל פייגרן מיט א מיתה משונה

[one of many]

THATS TERRIBLE!

you see what Rubashkin has done!!
now they endangered the lives of every Jewsih man woman and child in this city!
soon the whole country will follow and blame the Jews for all these crimes saying its all the Jews fault. more hate as if we needed that!!!
thanks Rubashkin, you dont deserve to be called a Jew! We protest against you!
EVIL RESIDENT! and i think it is important that all Jews who appose to this operation should stand up and make a statement
why should all Jews pay the price for one Jew that breaks Gods Law??/
WHy????
if local residence dont stand up and oppose to Rubashkin and protest real fast, there will be more disaster!!!
maybe you should put it in the local paper, before someone gets hurt or killed over all this atrocities and crimes of the Rubashkin family at the Agri Processors plants!!
and there non kosher meat to boot!!!
they dooped Jews and all others!!!
all for the love of money!!!

[MP]

May G-d show you all the same amount of mercy you show the Rubashkin family! Even a gentile would get the benefit of presumption of innocence from you, not so a frum Jew - you have all found Rubashkins 'guilty as charged'. Not "alleged crimes", but "crimes"! Why even bother with courts of law? Indeed, a lynch mob is so much more effective at dispensing justice!

As to Scott here, what eats him alive is that Reb Aaron Rubashkin has ka"h a beautiful family: children, grandchildren and great grandchildren following the ways of Torah and chassidus... He has the respect and admiration of many needy he has helped throughout his life... At the same time, the accursed Scott remains single, shunned, unwanted, with no progeny, eventually to die all alone and forgotten as he will choke on his own bile (hopefully sooner rather than later)...
ימח שמך !!!!

formerly frum now a white supermacist (tough not anti-semitic)

Why do you believe that whites are superior to you? If you're a white supremacist, then you believe that whites are supreme. Therefore, you believe that whites are better than Jews. What are you, self-hating or something?

[formely frum]

formalyfrum did not write
"fucking niggers, losers of the world.
Posted by: formerly frum now a white
supermacist (tough not anti-semitic) | May 18, 2008 at 06:13 PM"

I guess someone did not like what I
wrote in my post quoted below. Whoever you are and I think I know,should at least sign it with your name and not try to make it look like I wrote it

question to AVROHOM

Should they arrest the perpetrator who
attack the black man? and why does not the jews practice what they
preach and show the police and the blacks, we are for justice for all
and hand over the jew who attack. Until the community does that shut
up about the police not doing anything about the attacks on the jews there was no newspaper stories of the other attacks you mention the last one was just on Friday included in the articles of the riot.

>Posted by: formely frum | May 18, 2008
at 08:17 AM

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya: Enforce your own rules! People should not be allowed to use similar pseudonyms that might confuse readers into thinking they are the same person as another poster.

[SJ]

formalyfrum did not write ... so on and so on.

Just another orthodox charachter assassination. Its what they do when they find that they are able to compete in the marketplace of ideas with ..... ideas.

Another example is that I wrote against shomer negiah and Garnel Ironheart not being able to defend the idea that if a guy and a girl gives eachother a high five they get gehenom 60 times hotter than any fire in this universe as per the Talmud, Garnel tried to smear me as a pevert.

As for racism amongst Orthodox Jews, the idea that Ham was turned into a black man as punishment appears in berashis rabah. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/mhl/mhl05.htm

[PITA]

Who needs black anti-semites? We have more than enough Jewish anti-semites right here on this blog!

[PITA]

Sorry. That last comment was mine. Just forgot to sign it.

[SJ]

* are not not able :|

>> Who needs black anti-semites? We have more than enough Jewish anti-semites right here on this blog!

case in point.

[PITA]

Take a look at how many times on this topic alone there are references made to frum people as 'they' 'them' etc.

There is no clearer sign of bigotry than refering to any group of people as sharing any habit, trait, mindset, etc.

Seeing it done to charaidim distresses me as much as seeing it done to blacks.

By what right does a frum (-looking) person who refers to blacks as N******s have the right to complain when his own group is labled as anything? By what right does a yid who attributes anyway mindset, flaw, etc to charaidim as a group have to complain when a charaidi displays bigotted attitudes to blacks?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Midrash aggadah is not always meant to be taken literally. Only recently has it become so. (Midrash halacha is, on the other hand.) Religion can be used to justify racism; IMO that is an abuse of religion. I would rather learn out that we are all Bnei Adam made in Tzelem Elohim, which jibes nicely with recent science that says we are all descended from a homonid woman who lived in East Africa, so we are all Africans under the skin.

The rabbis have taken the negiah stuff too far- a high five is a far cry from a hookup.

Rabbinic Judaism is helpful when it provides practical solutions for living according to the torah. But not everything some rabbi says is M'Sinai.

For these opinions, I will not gain favor with either SJ or PITA, although I wish them well personally.

[shmuel]

"As to Scott here, what eats him alive is that Reb Aaron Rubashkin has ka"h a beautiful family: children, grandchildren and great grandchildren following the ways of Torah and chassidus... He has the respect and admiration of many needy he has helped throughout his life... At the same time, the accursed Scott remains single, shunned, unwanted, with no progeny, eventually to die all alone and forgotten as he will choke on his own bile (hopefully sooner rather than later)...
ימח שמך !!!!
Posted by: MP | May 19, 2008 at 12:01 AM"

For a "frum" Jew to write such trash is really shocking. The "accursed" Scott? "Eventually to die all alone"? "He will choke on his own bile"? "Hopefullly sooner rather than later"? "Yimach shimecha"?
MP, don't you recall what happened to King David when he cursed Yoav for assasinating Avner? He let loose with some very serious kllalos. They were fulfilled, all right: on David's own descendants. See II Samuel 3:29 and the Radak there for the curses. Then see BT Sanhedrin 48b.
It's time to apologize. Pretend you're frum and it's the eve of Yom Kippur.

[MP]

shmuel,
You're 'shocked' by my language but not by anything else on this blog? it doesn't shock you that this vermin wishes that an old Jew (Reb Aaron Rubashkin) 'end his life in prison' r"l? And you expect to be taken seriously with your admonitions? You are a classical טובל ושרץ בידו .
I believe it is not only right and proper to hate Scott, to wish him ill, but also to do him ill (within the bounds of the US law), should an opportunity present itself. He is an evil man with a very dark hateful soul. He will join the ranks of evil apostates and mosrim, like the infamous Johannes Pfefferkorn ימ"ש . I wonder if Pfefferkorn also had his Jewish defenders...

[formely frum]

"Reb Aaron Rubashkin has ka"h a beautiful family: children, grandchildren and great grandchildren following the ways of Torah and chassidus... He has the respect and admiration of many needy he has helped throughout his life..."

Let me state I do not know if he is guilty or not.

however Mp the above that he was nice to his family and grandchildren proves nothing many evil men were perfect family memebers.
A extra extreme case ( I just was reading the book death Dealer)Rudolph Hoss the commandant of Auschwitz was a perfect family man who treated his family with love
like any other person. And strangely, any prisoner that did work in his house he treated with respect and as a guest. Even thought he was gassing 2 million people just a few hundred yards away.

People can compartmentalize there actions.
Or, they do not thing the other is 100% human, then it is okay to do to them as one pleases.

PS I am not comparing the two, just binging an extreme example.

[MP]

formely frum,
Just how stupid are you? I was merely listing the reasons Scott hates him, not proofs of his innocence (his lawyers will hopefully do that without my help).

[shmuel]

"shmuel,
You're 'shocked' by my language but not by anything else on this blog? it doesn't shock you that this vermin wishes that an old Jew (Reb Aaron Rubashkin) 'end his life in prison' r"l? And you expect to be taken seriously with your admonitions? You are a classical טובל ושרץ בידו ."

Listen, little tzaddik:
1.You have no business on the web anyway. It's been forbidden by your own rabbis. It is pure bittul Torah for you to waste one moment on these matters. You can't fix these problems and have no ability to influence them in any way. So for you, a holy rolling charedi who ignores the daas Torah of his own rabbis and insists on reading and commenting on blogs, in the face of their clearly-stated opposition, to be horrified by what Shmarya writes, is ridiculous. Don't you get it?
2. If it is proven, in an American court of law, that Mr. Rubashkin illegally hired hundreds of illegal aliens, engaged in social security fraud, allowed a meth drug plant to be run out of his kosher plant, etc. etc., then he's looking at some serious time, agreed? I don't know how old he is, but that could mean he might spend the rest of his life behind bars. It's a sobering thought. Shmarya was probably speaking out of the rage all of us feel when we are confronted by yet another in a never-ending stream of charedi chillulei Hashem. You know, the kinds that make us all look bad in the eyes of the nations. We are supposed to be a light unto the nations, not a michshol over which they stumble as they see very religious Jews abuse non-Jewish law every chance they can.
3. Precisely because you hold yourself out as an outraged charedi I am able to appeal to you on Torah lines of communication: be careful what you say about your enemy. When your enemy falls, don't rejoice. When one curses his enemy, those curses fall upon his own head. When Rabbi Meir was aggravated by a bunch of thugs in ancient Israel---Jewish ones, of course, by the nature of his wife's response---Bruria told her husband to stop praying for their demise and pray they should do teshuvah. Why? "Yitamu chataim min haaretz, ureshaim od ainom," she quoted the Psalmist. It doesn't say "Yitamu chotim" ("let the sinners themselves be removed") but rather "Yitamu chataim" ("let the sins be removed" i.e. let them repent)and then, by doing so, "ureshoyim od ainom" ---there will therefore be no more wicked ones. Rabbi Meir took her words to heart and so prayed. They repented.

Yet you write so arrogantly, so smugly, so holier-than-thou, so self-righteously, and so creepily:

"I believe it is not only right and proper to hate Scott, to wish him ill, but also to do him ill (within the bounds of the US law), should an opportunity present itself. He is an evil man with a very dark hateful soul. He will join the ranks of evil apostates and mosrim, like the infamous Johannes Pfefferkorn ימ"ש . I wonder if Pfefferkorn also had his Jewish defenders..."

Are you greater than Rabbi Meir, whose wife had to school him on how to deal with this?

[Yosef ben Matitya]

what the hell is chabad still doing in crime hts, why dont the follow all the others and get out of there

Posted by: | May 18, 2008 at 12:21 PM

look, they created a pigsty, they are happy in it, it is run by their very own homegrown thugs and thieves, were do u want them to go?
also don't u know that 770 is beis hamiqdosh waiting for mh'm currently in queens to lift it to eretz yisrol. (u know, like clark kent?).

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.ws]

B"H
MP writes:
"I believe it is not only right and proper to hate Scott, to wish him ill, but also to do him ill (within the bounds of the US law), should an opportunity present itself. He is an evil man with a very dark hateful soul. He will join the ranks of evil apostates and mosrim, like the infamous Johannes Pfefferkorn ימ"ש . I wonder if Pfefferkorn also had his Jewish defenders..."
Shmuel responds
Are you greater than Rabbi Meir, whose wife had to school him on how to deal with this?

Posted by: shmuel | May 19, 2008 at 02:14 PM

May I interject? In the case of R. Meir he was angry at Jewish Christians or gnostics or whatever who were annoying him.
Yet the argument was theological.
Thus Bruria R. Meir's wife quoted the verse that implies that we shouldn't pray for the destruction of those who are sinning by mistake but rather for their teshuvah- repentance, return to G-d. He listened to her wise advice and they indeed repented.
In this case we are dealing with a case of consistent mesirah, malshinus, redifus of religious Jews by a person who uses a rather popular blog to spread all this hatefull and often slanted info not a mere case of theological differences thus it is easier to understand the feelings of someone who desires to eliminate the harm from such a person to the community 1st not being primarily concerned with his personal repentance like it says in the 19th blessing of the Amidah we recite 3 times daily:
"May the informers have no hope, and and may all the heretics and intentional sinners disappear , and all the enemies of your people should be quickly excised [...]Blessed are you G-d who breaks our enemies and subdues [intentional] evildoers."

[MP]

shmuel,

"Are you greater than Rabbi Meir...?"
Don't be silly. Compare Scott to Pfefferkorn and then tell me if your analogy holds. My point is - it doesn't. Indeed this is a very rare case I would advocate such an extreme position.

"Shmarya was probably speaking out of the rage"...
Oh, so that makes it OK. And if he reports on a Jew to the government 'out of rage' (something he tries to do very hard with this blog), he will not be considered a 'moser'?

"You have no business on the web anyway"
Don't assume anything. I have no problem with the internet, I have it at home, it is used by everybody in my circles. I do not support not pretend to support any internet ban. Happy now? Furthermore, I have not written anything with which an observant Jew of any stripe would not be able to identify. So not sure where the 'chareidi' accusation comes from. Oh, I forgot, this blog is all about the 'chareidi bogeyman...

"It is pure bittul Torah for you to waste one moment on these matters."
You are probably right on this. Same applies to many people here. Although ben Matitya, the fake sefardi, is clearly not from the Jewish stock.

[MP]

Ariel, good points. I will endeavor b"n to have Scott Rozenberg in mind when I recite the malshinim bracha. Will my kavana work even though I do not know his mother's name? Just wondering.

[Shmarya]

Here's a comment from MP on another post, referring to all of us:

You bastards never heard of פדיון שבוים , I guess. Drop dead,
the lot of you - mosrim, mamzerim, bnei nidah...

This is classic Chabad. For all the Chabad PR about ahavat yisrael, what it all boils down to is an us against them mentality, with the "them" open for any type of attack, no matter how low.

Aaron Rubashkin and his sons are criminals who steal from the weak and give the money to Jews – mostly frum Jews, mostly friends of MP and, perhaps, even to MP or the org he works for.

I do not hate the Rubashkins. But I certainly hate their illegal actions.

[MP]

what it all boils down to is an us against them mentality, with the "them" open for any type of attack, no matter how low.

I do not claim to speak for Chabad. That said, Chabad aspires, as does Judaism in general, to ahavas yisroel. The same Judaism draws the line at mesira and redifa. I believe that Scott and others here have long crossed that line.

[yidandahalf]

For a little while there Reb Ariel seemed like he was seeing the light, however, spending this Shabbos in a den of Chabad-Men has evidently caused him to return to his roots. I particularly liked the marathon beginning with "In this case WE are dealing with..." Stunning. That chronic I sent him was totally wasted.

All the energy spent hurling vitriol at us 'vermin' would be better spent in Postville helping your idols out in their time of need. Such big talking windbags.

[SJ]

its funny how our orthodox friends cry about people being bigoted towards them however let us review the end of chapter one of lekutai amarim in the Tanya:

כדאיתא בגמרא על פסוק: וחסד לאומים חטאת — שכל צדקה וחסד שאומות העולם עושין אינן אלא להתייהר כו׳

So the Gemara31 comments on the verse, “The kindness of the nations is sin” — that all the charity and kindness done by the nations of the world is only for their self-glorification...

(http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/7880/jewish/Chapter-1.htm)

ooooh nothing bigoted about that huh?

[Shmarya]

Chabad aspires, as does Judaism in general, to ahavas yisroel. The same Judaism draws the line at mesira and redifa. I believe that Scott and others here have long crossed that line.

What MP is saying is that we are all rodefs. We are all informers.

And you all know what the penalty for being a rodef or an informer is, right?

The same penalty Yitzhak Rabin got.

[yidandahalf]

They are too cowardly for anything but pedantic talmudic windbaggery which is why they secretly admire us.

[MP]

"And you all know what the penalty for being a rodef or an informer is, right? The same penalty Yitzhak Rabin got."

Don't flatter yourself. I don't agree that Yitzhak Rabin had a din of a rodef; I do think he was terribly misguided but he should have been discredited only politically. He was not any worse than Menachem Begin, and no one called Begin a rodef.

You, on the other hand are a moser and a rodef. Alas, we can't apply the proper din to you ourselves. It is, therefore, my hope that G-d will do it Himself, the sooner the better.

Your dark soul is so far gone, that you can't even imagine that someone might actually feel bad for Aron Rubashkin and wish he was proven innocent, unless there was some personal connection or some material gain.

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

Again, people, pay attention to what this Chabadnik writes:

You, on the other hand are a moser and a rodef. Alas, we can't apply the proper din to you ourselves. It is, therefore, my hope that G-d will do it Himself, the sooner the better.

Your dark soul is so far gone, that you can't even imagine that someone might actually feel bad for Aron Rubashkin and wish he was proven innocent, unless there was some personal connection or some material gain.

ימח שמך

This is what Chabad really is when you strip away the PR.

[Shmarya]

And remember – the Chabadnik called you all rodefs and informers, as well.

What he wants done to me he also wants done to you.

[MP]

I believe my comments here are within the bounds of US law. Last time I checked, it was not illegal to pray for someone's demise by an act of G-d. And yes, you are not alone, you have a couple of 'regulars' here who are as evil as you are.

ימח שמך

[MP]

As to Chabad, were exactly does it profess love for the enemies of the Jewish People? I maintain that nothing I say here is a contradiction to what you call Chabad "PR"...

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

That depends, MP, on what the DA thinks. BTW, because it's interstate, it may be a federal case. Either way, it happens here, not in NY.

[MP]

To pray for someone's death is aganst the law and might be a federal case? Interesting. What part of the penal code does this violate?

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

Praying is not against the law. But calling for someone's death or harm in the guise of praying is.

[MP]

I would like you to point out were I 'called' for anyone but G-d to kill you. The question is then, "is it legal to publically pray for someone's death"? Are you maintaining that it is not? On what grounds?

Also, I would not want any innocent Jew (or gentile, for that matter) to sacrifice his freedom and sit in jail just to have you be done away with.

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

If a John Gotti figure says from jail that he would like to see an informant dead – but, God forbid, he's not calling on anyone to break US law, Gotti would still be prosecuted for the attempted murder.

In the same way, a religious leader who does this would also be prosecuted if there is a history of violence or attempted violence in his movement.

This principle also applies to obstruction of justice charges.

So, for example, if you would happen to be linked to Rubashkin in any way, and could be shown to benefit from intimidation or violence that may come from your statements, then a case could be made against you.

Let's be clear. You called for the deaths of people who you believe oppose your religious grouping.

If an imam said what you said about Jews or about government officials, I don't think the government would view this benignly.

[MP]

You called for the deaths of people who you believe oppose your religious grouping.

Do you even know what the words "called for" mean? Again, show me where I did that.

Even if John Gotti himself said "I hope this lying witness dies from cancer", he would not be prosecuted. If an imam said "I hope the hand of Allah strikes this enemy of the umma but we do not need to do anything but pray to Allah for this", he would not be prosecuted. Either bring case law, or sue me, or shut up.

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

If an imam said "I hope the hand of Allah strikes this enemy of the umma but we do not need to do anything but pray to Allah for this", he would not be prosecuted.

He would be prosecuted if one of his followers or friends tried to kill that person, and if the government thought his words were meant to produce the attack.

Why don't you share your full legal name with us so we can proceed with legal options?

[MP]

Wait a minute, are you actually saying that if you should die from cancer, I can be charged with wishing it upon you?

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

I'm saying you called for the deaths of people whom you dislike. You made what are in effect terroristic threats.

You full legal name, please.

[MP]

He would be prosecuted if one of his followers or friends tried to kill that person...

Maybe, but if he could show that he meant what he said - pray only - then, unless the government could pove those were code words, he would be innocent in law and in fact. Should some moron decide to kill you, I would be able to honestly demonstrate the truth - I neither called nor hinted for anyone to do you in.

ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

If so, you should have no problem telling all of us your full legal name.

[MP]

"You full legal name, please."

Name coming. Please hold your breath. Hey, I got an idea for you, genius. Since you believe laws were broken, go to the feds, they will find me if they agree with you.

ימח שמך
Drop Dead.

[Shmarya]

What a coward. You can call for the deaths of Jews you disagree with but you can't tell us your real name?

I think you're a bit less sure of your position than you let on.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Why pray for any Jew's demise? Why not pray for teshuvah and refuah (if you think it's warranted).

[MP]

I will go further, if someone can demonstrate that this prayer is illegal, I will agree to keep it private henceforth.

Drop dead and ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

But you already made it very public.

Your legal name?

[MP]

I think you're a bit less sure of your position than you let on.

Powerful argument. Unless someone who has a real life agrees to post their real name on your blog, they are not sure of their position. Got me there...

Drop dead and ימח שמך

[MP]

Yochanan,
The whole argument here was "is it legal to pray for someone's demise". Scott here claims it is illegal. He claims that parayer in this case is only a code for calling for someone to kill him. What do you think?

[Shmarya]

Let's see.

You call for the deaths of Jews you disagree with.

You claim this does not violate any law.

But you won't publish your full legal name.

Call this what you may.

Pretty much everyone else sees what you really are – a coward, a bully, and a 'shining example' of Menachem Mendel Schneerson's leadership.

[Shmarya]

No, MP. That is not the argument.

You called for my death and the deaths of many readers here.

You did so clearly and without shame.

And you're a tremendous coward, too boot.

[MP]

For the last time, show me the comment where I called for you death.

Drop dead and ימח שמך

[Yochanan Lavie]

MP: In all fairness to you, I am ignorant of the law. It is illegal to make threats, but your posts are a grey area. I am just saddened by your anger and bitterness. It will not hurt Shmarya, but will eat away at you. If you think Shmarya (and people like me) are as evil as you say they are, pray for them to do teshuvah. It will feel better than filling your heart with bitterness (and I do know how that feels) and Kal Molei Rachamim may be more inclined to grant it.

[Shmarya]

For the last time, show me the comment where I called for you death.

Tell it to the DA.

[MP]

anger and bitterness
Yochanan,
How about simple outrage that there is this creature that wishes for an old Jew to end his days in jail and repeats as fact any wild accusation leveled agains any frum Jew. I do not know about you, but I can tell you that there are 3 specific commenters here who are just as evil as Scott himself (ben matitya, pushkina, and nigretude).
ימח שמם וזכרם

[MP]

Tell it to the DA
Like I said, if you have a case, go for it (you don't need a name if the case is legit, ip adress is enough). If you don't, please do the world a favor and choke on your bile tonight.

Drop dead and ימח שמך

[Shmarya]

How about simple outrage that there is this creature that wishes for an old Jew to end his days in jail and repeats as fact any wild accusation leveled agains any frum Jew.

Now my actual quote:

f any of the bolded, italicized allegations are true, Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin, Heshy Rubashkin and others will spend many years behind bars, and Aaron Rubashkin will spend his last years in prison.

So MP is not only a coward and a bully – he's also misrepresented what I wrote.

[Shmarya]

Like I said, if you have a case, go for it

Maybe you and Heshy will share a cell…

[MP]

Maybe you and Heshy will share a cell
OK.
Please have a good day, drop dead and ימח שמך

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.Moshiach.WS]

B"H
Dear MP!
Shmaryah is notorious for making silly legal claims as far as what's defined as sedition or the like is concerned. See the earlier post about R. Wolpo for example.
While I don't personaly think it is appropriate to pray for his death but rather for healing of his soul, mind and body from the anger and hate that pushes him to write some of the posts here I can understand your feelings and I as I pointed out above one can find a source for your attitude in Torah sources and I don't think you should worry too much about his "legal threats" either.
However G-d being omnipotent can as well cure Shmaryah from this hate as easily as killing him that being the case why shouldn't we pray for that instead?

[MP]

While I don't personaly think it is appropriate to pray for his death but rather for healing of his soul.
Ariel, let's compromise and pray for both! :)

[formely frum]

Mp I think you meant to say,

Also, I would not want any innocent Jew OR GUILTY Jew (or innocent gentile, for that matter) to sacrifice his freedom and sit in jail just to have you be done away with.

In addition MP
why do you not show such hatred to frum Jews who committee crimes. If and I say if Rubaskin is guilty would you pray for his Rubasdhkin death too.

MP
you can pray for Scotts death all you want you just can't announce it, I guess if you have following.

Mp and others

Maybe you can quote to this unlearned Yeshiva boy ( I say that sarcastically) Where does it say anywhere that Moser applies to Jews who did steal, and do other crimes. If you look in the Shichun Orach (spelled)he does not give example of these type of cases. Simply put if one reads halacha correctly one would know that moser does not apply in these type of cases. Funny when i was in Bais Medriesh and asked
a few rabbis to show me an example of such a case and they could not. But maybe you could.

In addition Moser was made in a time when Jews could not get anything resembling a fair trial. It was made for the protection
of the NON-criminal element of the Jews not for the criminals. But that is for a different discussion.

[one of many]

maybe we should start wearing tee shirts that say,
I hate Rubahskin
or
I had no part in it..
or
it wasnt me..
or
Death to slommo
{who ever slommo is}
or
dont look at me "Im a stupid Vegan?"

just kidding its getting too hot in here, thought i'd cool it down a bit. seems you dont have to go far for a riot....
take it easy remember AhVah Israel??
brotherly love!!!!
See YA!

[PITA]

This is why folks love more princess diana rather than mother teresa.
We all could relate to Diana's clean hands approach but to get dirty hands literally with the forsaken.

Posted by: yudel | May 18, 2008 at 03:11 PM

BS. Di looked hot in a bikini.

[one of many]

heres a great way to start your day!!
i found a wonderful quote this morning i like to share from aish.com torah portion.
and we can apply this today in these situations that are aparent to us all! in matters of interest!

Life is not about suffering. Life is about growing and making the changes we were put here to make. Difficulties are going to happen. That we cannot change. What we can change is our attitude. Will we view difficulties as a nuisance, or as a message? We may as well make the most of it. We have nothing to lose -- and everything to gain.
Ignoring the message won't help make the problem go away. On the contrary, the wake-up call becomes more intense. The Talmud explains that initially, warning signs will appear on a person's house. If one does not heed the sign, then the spots will move a bit closer - to the clothes. Once again, only if the message is not received, the spots will appear on the body itself.
It's a mistake to try to cover it up. The spots are there for a reason and you have to face it.

Rabbi Avi Geller

this is a great message for us today!
have a wonderful day!
C

[pushkina]

whoever you are, formerly frum, wherever you are, (with my apologies to everyone) please think of this response to your ever so lovely mantra (fucking niggers, losers of the world.Posted by: formerly frum now a white supermacist (tough not anti-semitic):

"f*cking c*cks*cking kikes, leeches of the world"

to hear that, do you think that would make you feel better? more safe in the world? do you think it makes white folks feel better? did invoking racial hatred against "nig*g*rs really make you feel better?

i guess i'm lucky as i am eligible to be called both nig*g*r and kike and have been called both and worse, especially as a small girl growing up in LA, being chased home by rock wielding neighbor boys.

so i can tell you mr. white supremacist, neither is a good thing to be called; neither is good to call. and if you are what you say, well, at least you are an honest jew, even though you totally miss the entire white supremacist thing: you can't be one because to them, you aren't white. you really aren't even entitled to white skin privilege and they'll hunt you down just like they would me. or do you know nothing of Leo Frank?

Posted by: formerly frum now a white supermacist (tough not anti-semitic) |