Conversion Revocation Update: RCA Appalled, Marc Shapiro Explains Why

In what the Jewish Week calls, "an unusually bold move," the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) has…

… come out strongly against the ruling issued by three Rabbinic High Court judges revoking all conversions issued by Conversion Authority head Rabbi Chaim Druckman from 1999 onward.

The the RCA labeled the judges ruling:

1. A violation of "numerous Torah laws"
2. "Entirely beyond the pale of acceptable halachic practice"
3. Constitutes a "massive desecration of God's name."

The RCA should be upset. What happened to Rabbi Druckman's conversions is most likely what will happen to the RCA's conversions in the not too distant future.

Marc B. Shapiro, perhaps the leading scholar of Orthodox Judaism in the modern era, has an opinion piece in the Jewish Week dealing with this latest twist in the conversion saga.

He calls the RCA signing a conversion agreement with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate "shortsighted":

…[H]aredi leadership rejects the entire notion that there can be Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist halachic authorities and dayanim, and indeed has attempted to keep non-haredim off the religious courts.

Accepting the legitimacy of a Modern Orthodox or Religious Zionist posek (decisor) is in their eyes an oxymoron. This explains how the haredi Supreme Rabbinic Court could call into question so many conversions without even meeting with the individuals concerned and investigating the people whose lives they have just damaged.…

We have finally reached the point in Israel, and to a lesser extent in the United States, where the non-haredi rabbinate must make a choice. Until recently the haredi world shunned the official Israeli rabbinate, but now the haredi leadership sees it as their obligation to take it over. The haredi community survives due to Israeli government subsidies, but this community has no connection to the average citizen and its members do not serve in the army. How can dayanim rule for a population when the judges inhabit a completely different world, not merely oblivious to general Israeli society, but opposed to the national values found there?

At present, the haredi leadership is attempting to entirely uproot any vestige of a Religious Zionist stamp on official religious life in Israel.

The Chief Rabbinate’s new stringent approach on conversion has the effect of uprooting the rulings of previous chief rabbis, in particular Rabbis Benzion Uziel, Isser Yehuda Unterman and Shlomo Goren. It is incredible that the RCA has agreed to a situation in which conversions carried out using the standards of previous chief rabbis are now to be regarded as invalid.…

Yet isn’t it time to ask why the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist world doesn’t model itself on the haredi world in at least one area? The haredi world follows its own authorities without regard for the non-haredi rabbinate. Isn’t it time for the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist world to do the same?

This would mean a complete break with the haredi halachic authorities and the establishment of religious courts that share at least some of the values and worldview of the community in which they serve. (I was struck by how, in his lengthy ruling attacking Rabbi Druckman’s conversions, the haredi dayan relies on the halachic decisions of a well-known posek who serves the anti-Zionist Edah Haredit. In other words, the writings of one who believes that the creation of the State of Israel was a terrible sin — and who clearly has no sympathy with the goal of helping ease the conversion of sincere non-Jewish immigrants — is helping guide the decisions of a dayan who works for the Israeli government and is supposed to have the best interests of the State at heart.)

I am sure some readers will protest that it goes against Orthodox unity to advocate this approach. Yet with such a step the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist world would only be acknowledging the situation that the haredim have created, and are now pursuing with a vengeance.

…One would that think that the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionists would take the hint and realize that the time has come to go their own way.

The problem, I believe, is that two key RCA leaders, Rabbis Hershel Schachter and Mordechai Willig, lack the vision, leadership and, in truth, the baitzim, to lead Modern Orthodoxy. (Rabbi Schachter, I think, has always viewed himself as a Brisker working in a Modern Orthodox yeshiva rather than a Modern Orthodox rabbi with a Brisker background.)

These two YU rosh yeshivas have presided over what I think history will call the destruction of Modern Orthodoxy.

As RCA members do some soul searching, they would do well to dwell on the roles these two men have played in taking Modern Orthodoxy from its enlightened, humane roots and converting it to a fawning hanger-on to haredism.

This is our Beit Hillel v. Beit Shammai moment, the tipping point, if you will in post-1948 Jewish history.

RCA membership still has a brief window of opportunity to act.

All we can ask is that it does.

Jewish Week article.

Prof. Marc B. Shapiro's op ed.

Comments

[SR]

That is why this new Orthodox Fellowship has been created: to challenge the RCA which has become like the haredim. Go to an RCA convention and you will see black suits and black hats, which would never have been seen 30 years ago.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Only Jews have the stupidity to hate their own state. (Note: I am not implying that it is perfect, or beyond criticism).

MO have nothing but themselves to blame for constantly looking over their right shoulders for approval from Zayde that will never come.

These are but 2 reasons why I am traditional, but not strictly Orthodox (not the only ones).

[Yochanan Lavie]

The Orthodox Fellowship, Chovevi Torah, and Union for Traditional Judaism should merge into their own denomination (in between so-called Conservative and what is today called Orthodox).

[rabbidw]

I have spoken out at great length for Rabbi Mordechai Willig in the past, but what he does not understand is when they came for Rabbi Druckman, they came for him as well. And if he does not speak up for Rabbi Druckman, there will be no one left to speak up for him The only solution is defunding all religious institutions in Israel and passing a civil marriage law in Israel. The chareidi world manages very nicely under these rules in America. Let them live under the same rules in Israel. Let each Rabbi decide for himself that no ones records go back far enogh to be real jews, No one who has seen a Lipa concert, or who has learned to speak english no is good enough for them, but let them leave the rest of us alone.

[Garnel Ironheart]

This is enitrely what my blog is about, but the problem I've indentified in the past remains:
Within the Chareidi world, there are reams and reams of teshuvos dealing with every possible situation. These responsa are treated as authoritative by their followers. There is a sense of unity and purpose to being Chareidi.
Mizrachi used to have that but our obsession with rebuilding Yehudah and Shomron turned the movement political and weakened the religious side considerably.
As for RCA and MO, if Rav Schechter were to publish a teshuvah tomorrow that required some change in MO behaviour, what percentages of MO would even know the teshuvah existed, much less adjust their behaviour? There is no sense of authority within MO, really that's the major defining feature of the movement.
The new Orthodox Fellowship will not help one whit because it will simply confirm in the eyes of many, including those on the right side of the YU and Mizrachi crowds, that YCT et al are just Conservatives with a mechitzah. Hardly a way to gain legitimacy in the eyes of the Chareidim.

In the end, though, this is going to turn into a game of chicken with the oncoming Chareidi train. And in the name of not splitting the Jewish people, the non-Chareidim will simply swerve to avoid a fatal collision.

[Anon]

Garnel -- wouldn't it be better to split the Jewish people? the haredim don't care about that, why should we?

[rabbidw]

But this entire idea of everyone being bound by any individual's psak is a davar chadash, and we all know that (repeat after me, boys and girls) CHADASH ASSUS MIN HATORAH. The traditional approach was always "Ein Ladayan Ella Mah Shelefanav" a judge must only rule on his case. He does not have to let hinself be ruled by other cases. The fifth section of the shulchan aruch is seichel, common sense, a trait which seems in great shortage lately.

[Anon]

Their yeshivot could not survive without our money. Why do we fund these places when they are turning out such products? And of course haredim would never contribute to our schools. We let haredi rabbis speak in our shuls, we even have haredi kollels in our shuls, yet they would never let our rabbis speak in their shuls? How long are we supposed to be treated like that?

[SJ]

Garnel is by no means modern. He still supports very old school ideas on how men and women should be able to interact.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Anon, you're right about the double standard. However, as I've written many times before, there are two ways to protest: petulantly and from a position of knowledge.
Why is Marc Shapiro so annoying to the Chareidi world? Because they can't just dismiss him as yet another MO with pretentions of importance. If they state something, he can come up with 20 references showing they're wrong, from their own sources!
Unfortunately, most MO authorities don't have that level of knowledge. They'd rather deal with nebulous concepts like "What's right" and "The decent things to do" which carry no currency with Chareidi authorities.
And those MO authorities who are on the level of their Chareidi counterparts are very much against splitting the already small frum community into two. Think about it: the YU leadership stands up and declares that enough's enough. They're going to pasken from MO sources, they're going to have their own dayanim and they're not going to recognize Chareidi authority any more. And then they get a call from all their Chareidi friends who have just found out that they're no longer allowed to eat in their homes. Who'd want to risk that for a group of MO's, the majority of whom don't know about or care about all this in the first place?

[C-Girl]

Garnel, I think we give the YU leadership more credit than it deserves. It's the rank and file that's worried about who will or won't eat at their houses. That's the only reason they continue to be led by the noses; they're agunot.

I'd like to believe that the whole thing's a house of cards, though. As soon as a few influential YU leaders have the cajones to issue a declaration of separation, we'll see a chain of events that equals a collective sigh of relief from the American MO/traditional population, casting off the chains and behaving like normal Jews again. What a wonderful dream...

[Yochanan Lavie]

I don't wish anybody ill will, but I frankly don't care what other communities think of me. (Granted I don't label myself Orthodox). Nothing will be acceptable to chareidim except becoming chareidi, or plain-clothes chareidi. Gei gezunte heit, but that's not for me.

[Garnel Ironheart]

C-girl, I wish I could share your sentiments. My experience with MO is that they're a lot like Conservatism. Within the JTS you have lots of people really dedicated to the movement and its principles. Out in the rest of the world you have congregations full of people whose personal beliefs and practices are essentially Reform but are claassified as Conservative because they belong to one of their synagogues.
With MO, yes there's a dynamic growing community in YU and New York. Go out to the boonies and you find people who have very little connection with the YU group or even a sense of what makes them MO other than that they identify themselves as Orthodox but aren't Chareidi. That's the real problem.

[ron]

With respect, I don't agree that this is Beit Hillel vs. Beit Shamai. You are giving these so called dayanim way too much credit.

For one thing, Shamai worked for a living, he was involved in construction work, hence his using a measuring stick to smack around the potential convert whom he regarded as a nutter. For that matter, if he had a problem with someone he clearly wasn't afraid to take it up with them directly.

For another thing, he wasn't interested in playing moronic power games with the lives of thousands of people. He also wasn't interested in making a joke of our religion in the eyes of the world. I don't pretend to be a scholar, but it seems to me that he said what he believed and he accepted it when when the majority disagreed. That isn't the case here.

There's a real difference between making a ruling that is harsh because you want to make a harsh ruling, and making a ruling that is harsh because it is the simple truth.

That's the difference between Shamai and these geniuses.

-ron

[Shmarya]

I won't argue.

Just note that I was careful to write "Beit Shammai" and "Beit Hillel." And, if you have time, learn Jerusalem Talmud Shabbat 1:4. You'll see what I was referring to.

[ron]

Heh.

-ron

The Orthodox Fellowship, Chovevi Torah, and Union for Traditional Judaism . . .

Where can one find information on the "Orthodox Fellowship." I searched on the web and all I found was stuff on Orthodox Christianity . . . the Christian stuff even came up when I put "Judaism" in as a search term.

[Shmarya]

Here:

Rabbinic Fellowship--A New Initiative for Orthodox Rabbis.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Before the toppling of the Taliban Colin Powell said “we will create a government that include Moderate Taliban” He was ridiculed by people who said there were never were Moderate Taliban. Someone wrote an article which showed that there were indeed moderate Taliban, Moderate Bolsheviks, moderate Sandinista etc. They all just did not fight against the extreme version and consequently disappeared..

This is going to append to the MO. The silver lining is that hopefully one day the US Military will drop a new and improved MOAB on Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet.

(faster please)

[Dr. Dave]

They have gone too far. The Quakers (chareidim) are the ones whose homes are not Kosher enough for us. They have gone against Klal Yisrael. The chief Rabbi needs to call them on it like Rabban Gamliel did to Rabbi Yehoshua on Yom Kippur with the questionable witnesses.
( Yes I know Rabbi Yehoshua was right and that Ben Azaria took over because of this incident but it was still imperative that Rabban Gamliel took a stand to preserve one nation. The same applies here.)

Either agree that the conversions are valid or be put in cherem.

These Quakers should submit to Judaism or just branch off and whither away like the essenes, zealots, etc.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Doc; Quakers are peaceful, law abiding people. I think you meant "quacks."

Here:

Rabbinic Fellowship--A New Initiative for Orthodox Rabbis.

Thanks, Shmarya! Sounds very interesting.
I hope it works.

Shabbat Shalom!

[Dr. Dave]

Charedim literally mean those who tremble or "Quake".

The word was initally used as a derogatory term to refer to the Society of Friends - a pacifist christian sect.

At least those Quakers have better Midot Bein Adam L'Chavero (better keep the laws regarding man and his fellow) than "our" Quakers.

[Dave]

Wow, if I was a Karaite (they're still going by the way- MKM- Modern Karaite Movement), I'd be rubbing my hands.
I'd just tell some of these upset converts- "don't give up on Judaism, we welcome you, we're a traditional Torah-based Judaism" (they do believe in Torah-mi Sinai, unlike Conservative/ Reform).

[maya]

It's very clear that Ruth the Moabite - the great grandmother of King David - would have had an interesting time explaining her conversion to today's Rabbinic courts. Yet the point remains: those who are prepared to join their fate with the nation of Israel - especially those who come to live in the Land and partake in the rebuilding of Zion in acknowledgement of the divine destiny of the Jewish People - are Jewish; and their children are Jewish, and are entitled to become Kings.

[Hopefull but Worried]

True, the "Hareidi" culture is full of intellectual blindness/dishonesty.
True, there are a great many other faults.

Also seemingly true, however, is that the probabiltiy of their children marrying no-Jews and of their grandchildren not being Jewish is smaller than the probability of the descendents of "Modern Orthodox".

If the price of Modern Orthodoxy is risking the Jewish future of our children - is it risk worth it?

Are we throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

Can our leaders find a better way to bring up our children so that we can be confident that our children will not marry out?

[Dr Fred]

A pox on both their houses.Does anyone else suspect that the RCA "outburst" was a backroom deal to "convince" the nebbish membership of MO that the RCA is still a bold voice for what is right(!)?

[Yossi (Joe) Izrael]

Where's the text of the original ruling?