The Hasid Shoteh of Radun and Other Sad Tales Of Haredi Sainthood

Israel Prize-winner Rabbi Dr. Daniel Sperber has more to say about haredism's regressive halakhic behavior, including dishing – in print this time – on the unusual halakhic behavior of the so-called "posek acharon," the Chafetz Chaim…

…And what Ha'aretz reports confirms what I wrote about Rabbi Sperber and the Chafetz Chaim several months ago:

…The Hatam Sofer influenced poskim and communities all over Europe, and the situation reached the absurd, according to Sperber: "Recently a book was published about the customs of the Mattersdorf community [in Hungary- Y.S.] in the mid-19th century. And it turns out that in this community the rabbis refused to allow a heater into the study hall and consequently it was so cold that most members of the community refrained from coming to the synagogue in the winter, and there's evidence that those who came had icicles running down from their beards, only because 'our forefathers did not have heaters.' In that same community they also avoided placing benches in the synagogue, and elderly people were forced to stand during the entire prayer service, for the same reason that 'Hadash is forbidden by the Torah.'"

Even major poskim, experts in the halakhic tradition, avoided innovation to the point of absurdity. Sperber tells of the testimony of the son of the Hafetz Haim (Rabbi Yisrael Hacohen of Radin, the main Ashkenazi posek of modern times) regarding his father, who refrained from introducing electricity into the synagogue, even on weekdays, because of the innovation it represented.…

This is your "saint," haredim, your so-called "posek acharon."

Don't forget the "saintly" Chafetz Chaim was also a leading anti-Zionist and a man who discouraged Jews from immigrating to Israel, the US and Canada on the eve of the destruction of European Jewry.

Oh, and one more thing – the Chafetz Chaim was a leading proponent of…"Da'as Torah," the haredi rationale for everything from staying in Europe to be butchered by the Nazis to allowing a certain pedophile rabbi to molest unchecked for 40 years.

Rabbi Sperber continues:

…Sperber discusses another major problem that he sees as an obstacle to the poskim - the absence of sufficient scientific knowledge. He is referring mainly [but not exclusively – S.R.] to their ignorance of the academic field of Jewish studies, which causes them to be unfamiliar with sources discovered in recent generations or differences of opinion between versions of various manuscripts, which could influence the pesika. As a basic example of that he mentions that Rabbi Yosef Caro, the compiler of the Shulkhan Arukh, which from the time it was written in the 16th century up to the present, has been considered the central book of halakha in the Jewish world, made his halakhic decisions by following the majority opinion in three previous books of halakha with which he was familiar: those of Maimonides, the Rif (Rabbi Yitzhak Alfasi) and the Rosh (Rabbi Asher ben Yehiel). "But in recent generations," says Sperber, "many halakhic sources that were totally unfamiliar to the author of the Shulkhan Arukh have been discovered, for example extensive halakhic literature from Provence. This literature could change the entire balance of majority and minority opinion in halakha, but the poskim will not allow any expression of that. The Hazon Ish [a central posek who lived in Israel in the 20th century -Y.S.] even said there is no need to take this literature into consideration, because apparently it was determined from above that this literature would not be discovered before the halakhic tradition was consolidated.…

Sperber, who sees this hyper-restrictive halakhic behavior as a direct outgrowth of the shift from reliance on local rabbis to a centralized halakhic system controlled by heads of yeshivas and as a direct response to the Reform Movement, notes that much of this hyper-restrictiveness is not found in Sefardic halakhic circles, including haredi Sefardic halakhic circles.

A good example of this is Rabbi Ovadia Yosef who, Sperber notes, has several times ruled against the Shulkhan Arukh, citing halakhic literature from Provence as his source.

Sperber also notes this refusal to adapt to change occasionally brings lenient rulings, although the example he gives is a ruling attacked by haredim:

…For example, Sperber brings the famous case of the permission given by Rabbi Avraham Kook to sell the lands of the country during the sabbatical year. This permission was based, among other things, on previous poskim who ruled that there is no prohibition against selling land from Eretz Israel to goyim in our time, because the prohibition written in the Torah on this matter relates only to idol worshipers, and today's Arabs are not considered as such.

But manuscripts discovered in recent decades reveal that these quotes stemmed from censorship imposed by Christian rulers on the original pesika, which actually prohibited the sale of land from Eretz Israel to all the goyim, and not only to idol worshipers.

In the test of results, Sperber is not afraid of the practical significance of his discovery, "because there are enough other ways and reasons to allow the sale," but the basic principle is important.

Rabbi Sperber has two new books out (in Hebrew) that deal with these issues, both published by Reuben Mass "Darka shel Halakha" and "Netivot Pesika."

Note: Yes, I realize I'm being very hard on the Chafetz Chaim. But the haredi spin machine has turned the man into a hagiographic caricature, a perfect saint who never erred and who never sinned, and whose actions never hurt Jews.

The facts are far different from the hagiography. Jews have a right to know this.

Comments

[Barry]

Will Haredi OCD sainthood end up as nuts as Christian OCD sainthood?

'In Mesopotamia, and part of Syria, there existed a sect known by the name of "Grazers," who never lived under a roof, who eat neither flesh nor bread, but who spent their time for ever on the mountain side, and eat grass like cattle. The cleanliness of the body was regarded as a pollution of the soul, and the saints who were most admired had become one hideous mass of clotted filth. St. Athanasius relates with enthusiasm how St. Antony, the patriarch of monachism, had never, in extreme old age, been guilty of washing his feet. St. Abraham the hermit, who lived for fifty years after his conversion, rigidly refused from that date to wash either his face or his feet. A famous virgin named Silvia, though she was sixty years old, and though bodily sickness was a consequence of her habits, resolutely refused, on religious principles, to wash any part of her body except her fingers. St. Euphraxia joined a convent of one hundred and thirty nuns, who never washed their feet, and who shuddered at the mention of a bath. . . . But of all the evidences of the loathsome excesses to which this spirit was carried, the life of St. Simeon Stylites is probably the most remarkable. It would be difficult to conceive a more horrible or disgusting picture than is given of the penances by which that saint commenced his ascetic career. He had bound a rope around him so that it became imbedded in his flesh, which putrefied around it. "A horrible stench, intolerable to the bystanders, exhaled from his body, and worms dropped from him whenever he moved, and they filled his bed." Sometimes he left the monastery and slept in a dry well, inhabited, it is said, by daemons.He built successively three pillars, the last being sixty feet high, and scarcely two cubits in circumference, and on this pillar, during thirty years, he remained exposed to every change of climate, ceaselessly and rapidly bending his body in prayer almost to the level of his feet. A spectator attempted to number these rapid motions, but desisted from weariness when he had counted 1,244. For a whole year, we are told, St. Simeon stood upon one leg, the other being covered with hideous ulcers, while his biographer was commissioned to stand by his side, to pick up the worms that fell from his body, and to replace them in the sores, the saint saying to the worm, "Eat what God has given you." From every quarter pilgrims of every degree thronged to do him homage. A crowd of prelates followed him to the grave. A brilliant star is said to have shone miraculously over his pillar; the general voice of mankind pronounced him to be the highest model of a Christian saint, and several other anchorites imitated or emulated his penances.'

[SJ]

Everyone, read the latest post on my blog after reading all of failedmessiah.com's latest posts ... I wrote an awesome piece of relevant satire. XD

[chief doofis]

One of the major problems I've encountered in the "frum" world, is the idolization of its leaders. One is taught not to approach a Rabbi as a better educated (BUT FALLIBLE) human being. A human whose advice may be valuable, whose knowledge (OF CERTAIN INFORMATION) may be much greater, but who is subject to the same foibles, albeit on a different level.

As a teenager, I watched with horror, as so called Gedolim provided no leadership during the Soviet Jewry crisis. I understood then, as I certainly understand now, that these same leaders were the students of those pathetic people who were our religious leaders in the 30's and 40's. Learned, yes. Pious, probably. Well intentioned (in their own millieu), I suppose so. But, as leaders - pathetic!!

There was a time when we had leaders who were as up to date (as possible) in their version of medicine, science, and other arts. Most of the recent "leaders" couldn't read the label on a bottle of aspirin, wouldn't know what a planet is, and some publicly admitted to not understanding what a credit card does!

We even had our current (deceased) False Messiah, who was a mature adult during the critical Holocaust era! At least Bar Cochba took many of the enemy with him, and temporarily, at least re-established hegemony in the Holy Land. The current False Messiah did NOTHING AT ALL during the Holocaust! Guess he was a Messiah in Training! (Didn't do much else in the '48 war, '56 war, '67 war, '73 war, and ain't doing much about the intifada!)

The truth is, we must be our own leaders. Opinions from Rabbis are important, but we must incorporate the realities of life, of which they are painfully unaware, alongside our adherence to their decisions.

[R]

Don't stick Rabbis on a pedestal. They don't know all and are deffinately not more G-dly than any other average human.

Problem with today is everyone is so lost and as the rest of the world is on a spiritual quest so we think we need to also do the same and find some Rebbe/Rabbi to idolize instead.

[yidandahalfa]

It is the beginning of the end to the Rabbinic Era.

[Yirmiyahu]

YIVO had an exhibit (or a publication, I forget) some years ago which was a collection of winning essays written by Jewish young people in the Polish part of Lithuania and Belarus (this includes Vilna and Radun). The prize ceremony never took place as it was scheduled for either June 21, 1941 or Sept. 1, 1939 (I forget again).

The upshot for this article is that one of the winners was from Radun and wrote about his life in the town. He made reference to the Hafetz Haim, who he remembered from the late '20s and early '30s as "an old, senile man who wandered around the Synagogue alternately muttering to himself or proclaiming the Messiah's imminent appearance".

All of the writers perished during the Shoah.

[Moshe]

I don't think you are right about the Chofetz Chaim opposing immigration per se to Israel & elsewhere. The Chafetz Chaim himself intended to immigrate to the land of Israel, but only refrained because he was begged to remain, because his leadership was needed. I'm sure that he was opposed to immigration for people who were weak in their faith & observance who would be in danger of assimmilting in the new lands.

[Monsey Lawyer]

The Chafetz Chaim was a well known Communist sympathizer as well. His nephew, Rabbi Dovid Leibowitz, came to America espousing the views of his uncle, that got him tossed out of Yeshiva Tora V'daas, among other reasons.

[Moshe]

The Chofetz Chaim was Niftar in 1933, quite a few years before the holocaust.
His son writes that he was in favor of Jews working the land in Israel, & did not believe
that only people who would learn & pray all day were suitable candidates for Aliyah.
I would like to see the quote about his being anti-electricity because of Chadash. I am not ready to take Sperber's word for it.

[The Anti-Shmarya]

The publisher of Haaretz is a known secularist who hates orthodox Jews with a passion. It figures he would publish this biased piece from Sperber who leaves out important details that contradict his "conclusion".

Funny how he quotes the Chazon Ish who held we may not take into account such authorities as the Meiri whose writings were in geniza, without mentioning that the Chafetz Chaim himself disputed the Chazon Ish and held such Rishonim could be used to derive psak.

It is absurd to attack rabbis for not introducing electricity when it was first introduced. There were several safety hazard issues at that time just like there were with early automobiles before there were enough stop signs and like devices.

Until Shmarya crawled out of his hole, who knew a purportedly Jewish website could publish trash more inflammatory than Haaretz, to the point where it mimics the skewered presentation of Judaism that Haman the Wicked gave to King Achashverosh.

Shmarya is quick to attack his critics as "apologists" when all he does is amplify every weak link to deride the Torah and it's guardians.

[Fleishike Kishke]

I see someone hasn't brushed up on his Lubavitch history. Rabbi Moshiach won the six-day war nearly single-handedly. Ask any Lubavitcher.

[Nachum]

While some rabbis in Europe railed against immigration to America, the Chofetz Chaim famously wrote a sefer providing religious encouragemnet to those Jews to did move there, giving them advice about remaining frum in their new environment.

He also famously wanted to make Aliyah, and publicly walked out of an Agudah convention (and refused to leave his hotel room until it was over) when one of the speakers made a disparaging remark about R' Kook.

A famous virgin named Silvia, though she was sixty years old . . . resolutely refused . . . to wash any part of her body except her fingers.

No need to wonder why she remained an unmarried woman her whole life.

St. Simeon Stylites . . . ceaselessly and rapidly bending his body in prayer almost to the level of his feet. A spectator attempted to number these rapid motions, but desisted from weariness when he had counted 1,244.

Was St. Simeon the inventor of "shuckling"?

[Maven]

Anti-Shmaryah has a point. I don't think the Chofetz Chaim was the Chazon Ish, and conflating everyone into one group neurosis is simply not factual (each had their own neurosis...)

The fact is, (and a source of endless amusement to us members of the SJ Friedlander Society at YU)that the Chofetz Chaim actually quotes the newly discovered Yerushalmi on Kodshim as a source in a well known letter. So while he may have had some issues with modern technology, the CC wasn't a textual Luddite, and also didn't hesitate to take on minhagim that seemed false in his eyes (ie, single men exempting themselves from Tallit, etc).

Also, who knows, given the current Green movement, if he won't be soon celebrated in certain circles for his positive carbon trace profile for refusing to use electricity derived from coal? :)

[The Anti-Shmarya]

I don't know why anyone would find it funny if the Chafetz Chaim fell for the "Yerushalmi" forgery. Most, save for the Rogatchover gaon and a few others, fell for it. The author's intellect was probably the biggest waste of genius in history.

Perhaps ziyuf was one motivation for the Chazon Ish to be so guarded over geniza. Several Rishonim are also suspected of being at least partially forged such as the Machzor Vitri & the Emek Hamelech.

[The Anti-Shmarya]

One cannot avoid noticing how Shmarya's hubris has become so out of control.

It takes a special kind of evil to attack the Chafetz Chaim of all people as a Chassid Shoteh.

Shmarya may be able to fool the uneducated with little dishonest comments he sneaks in. It's really a shame that anyone would dedicate his miserable life to attacking gentle old men from generations past who were the best mankind had to offer.

For the record, the Talmud states that only 7 people never sinned and no one has ever claimed the Chafetz Chaim was among them.

[yidandahalf]

Archie, this Anti-Shmarya must be you. How was kosherica? I must thank you for calling me Shmarya's self appointed lap dog. Since you haven't been around lately I have not had the chance to tell you what good it did me. First I had a good wake up call and became self-critical; not a bad thing. And second after losing all face on this blog, I realized I had also lost the capacity to feel shame. What liberation, Archie! What freedom! I now can be the most obnoxious asshole on this blog and SO WHAT??? I am past the point of no return, because I have NO SHAME. And it's all thanks to you, Arch.
If the above commentor is not Arch, no matter, Bonkers will see this anyway.

[maven]

Anti-Shmarya:

Take a deep breath, I was supporting you. I didn't say it was "funny", I said we were amused, and the "society" I referred to was named after the forger (SJ Friedlander, who first appears posing as a Turkish posek who was caught after being overheard speaking Yiddish). SJF was certainly a clever man, not only did he forge a Yerushalmi, but he also wrote a learned perush on it! As to whether it was the greatest waste of a brain in history, I feel a little something of that about myself every time I post on the internet :)

[Shmarya]

Let's help some of you folks out:

1. The Chofetz Chaim was an outspoken anti-Zionist. That does not mean he spoke ill of a particular rabbi; it only means he strongly opposed the movement.

2. He also was opposed to people moving to America or Israel, this as late as 1933.

3. Anti-jewish laws were passed in Germany within a short time of the Chofetz Chaim's passing. Kristallnacht, for was in 1938, five years after the CC died. WW2 started 6 years after the CC died. The killing of Polish Jewry began then, as well.

4. The electricity incident was not in the 1890s when E was new. He refused to have it in his shul in the 1930s, as well, for the reason Rabbi Sperber states. It had NOTHING to do with safety.

5. The man was a huge proponent of the Da'as Torah concept. He opposed emigration to America and Israel and urged people to stay in Europe. His "Da'as Torah" killed Jews.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.BostonChabad.com]

B"H
Shmaryah
In all likelihood some of the posts on this blog can also lead to Jews having low self esteem , being hurt, humiliated , denied employment etc. if not killed.
Do you demand as much responsibility from yourself when you write this stuff and post here as you demand from Chofetz Chaim?
Gut Moed!

[SJ]

Ariel

Someone who dislikes jews will blame all for the actions of a few regardless. It does not mean that Shmarya should stop writing about corruption.

Further, the USA protects one's right to be critical of corruption in religion.

[Simon Rose]

I'm new to this site and while it reports the sad truth about some sick people in our nation which unfortunately is very sad and disturbing.

It also reports some of the serious issues of our so called leaders rather non leaders, and their utter non-sense that you won't get in other places like the Lipa concert ban, cover-up of molesters (which I know first hand it happens), Rubashkin, the conversion issues, etc...

This is stuff we all need to be aware of and do something about by speaking up.

[The Anti-Shmarya]

Shmarya again falls very short on the facts. While DC type power in the 1890s, for the few countries that had it, was exceedingly dangerous, electrical fixtures and outlets remained a danger for some time to come. Even an advanced G-7 nation like Canada did not have a uniform electrical code until 1927. This can be verified through the history of the CSA or Canadian Standards Association which is like the UL in the United States. You can bet that a backwater like Poland took much longer.

Is Shmarya losing his mind? The Chafetz Chaim passed away before the Nazi Party started making a move on Jews. The leading rabbis of the 1600s were opposed to Jews leaving for the Jamestown colony. Why doesn't Shmarya grace us with an outburst that they too "killed" Jews?

[Shmarya]

1. The Chafetz Chaim's STATED REASON for banning electricity was "hadash assur min haTorah," NOT danger.

2. Fires from gas or candle light were far more common than from electricity, even in 1900, even prorated for usage.

3. The Nazi Party moved against Jews in the 1920s and gained a power in January of 1933. By 1935, anti-Jewish laws were passed and Jews were already being sent to concentration camps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Origins

In other words, the Chafetz Chaim died on September 15, 1933, 9 months AFTER the Nazis took power.

4. Here's what Hitler said in the early 1920s about Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Origins

Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows—at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example—as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.

Your dear saint the Chafetz Chaim, who strongly pushed the concept of Da'as Torah, apparently didn't have the presence of mind to note this, the Nazi's rise to power, or Hitler's immensely growing popularity.

Not much of a Jewish leader.

[Noclue]

You state that the Chafetz Chaim was senile in his later years. If that was true (and I have no way of knowing; however, given that he lived at least into his nineties, some degree of senility is plausible) how can you hold him culpable for his failure to predict the Holocaust (which nobody predicted as early as 1933; Germany at that time was defeated and disarmed)?

Please answer this question?

[Shmarya]

I did not say he was senile.

As for Germany in 1933, and the idea that "nobody" predicted the Holocaust, you raise a straw man.

No one predicted the Holocaust. However, Jabotinsky, Kasztener (yes, that Kasztener) and others did predict massive antisemitism, pogroms and killings.

But the point is, what good is "Da'as Torah," if "da'as torah" can't even predict something like Hitler's anti-Jewish riots, pogroms and laws?

What good is it if it fails to predict the outbreak of war?

Remember, Jabotinsky did predict all these things. The Chofetz Chaim, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Munkatcher Rebbe, Belzer Rebbe, Elchonon Wasserman, Satmar Rebbe, et al, did not.

[Isaac Balbin]

It is so obvious why "The Chofetz Chaim, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Munkatcher Rebbe, Belzer Rebbe, Elchonon Wasserman, Satmar Rebbe, et al, did not" predict. It is a combination of Hester Ponim and Emuna that Hakadosh Baruch Hu would never allow such a thing to happen. For this they should be condemned? You think modern day Daas Torah truly means infallibility? Come now. When all is said and done, we all recognise human frailty and Gdly intractability.

You build straw men to shoot down and then spifflicate vile. The Chafetz Chaim had an incredibly close relationship with Rav Kook, you know the ultra zionist Rav Kook. Guess who wrote the Haskomo to Chafetz Chaim?

If you really need to kick something, get yourself a plastic duck ... spew your bilious venom into a strong wind ... or perhaps some camomile tea ...

[chief doofis]

It's unreasonable to expect mere mortals to have predicted the Holocaust. Most probably, the Germans themselves did not expect it to have been so "successful".

The problem we have with the Rabbis who were alive at the time, is that many of them did not react to the dangers when they were actually face to face with them.

My complaints about the last Lubavitch Rebbe (Ztl), are aimed merely at those who believe that he was/is the Messiah. A "real" Messiah, would have stopped the Holocaust dead in its tracks. A real Rabbi, at best, could have counseled emigration, resistance,etc.

The late Rebbe's reactions to the Holocaust are unknown to me. Consequently, I cannot criticize his Rabbinic judgements. I cannot however, understand a "Messiah", who was ineffective in the face of the greatest catastrophe in human history.

[R]

I personally don't read these posts as actually attacking these men, but rather attacking those who worshipped them to the point where they put their lives in danger.
If you feel you need to leave a country due to it's danger and feeling of anti semitism, why go to a Rabbi to ask?
You make that decision yourself. As for those who didn't think anyway it would get bad and didn't realise until it was too late, you cannot blame the Rabbis for this as they too stayed. Plenty Rabbis stayed with their communities and died with the rest in the holocaust. The problem lies with certain Rebbes who escaped while telling their followers that it was safe.

Also Rebbes and some Rabbis know exactly what sort of power they have on their communities and quite often abuse that power to suite themselves. Sometimes you get a really decent Rabbi who truly cares about his community, but these people are rare, mainly because they are quiet.

Basically don't pin everything on the words of a Rabbi.

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.BostonChabad.com]

B"H

B"H
Shmaryah
In all likelihood some of the posts on this blog can also lead to Jews having low self esteem , being hurt, humiliated , denied employment etc. if not killed.
Do you demand as much responsibility from yourself when you write this stuff and post here as you demand from Chofetz Chaim?
Gut Moed!
Posted by: Ariel Sokolovsky www.BostonChabad.com | April 23, 2008 at 07:12 PM
Ariel
Someone who dislikes jews will blame all for the actions of a few regardless. It does not mean that Shmarya should stop writing about corruption.

I am not saying he should stop. I am criticizing his style - often stereotyping whole groups of Jews, mocking people like Chofetz Chaim etc.
Even the whole reason this blog was started it turns out was false as I told Shmaryah on the phone and posted here earlier and all he or anyone has to do to verify this is to contact R. Gedalia Axelrod from the Beis Din of Haifa and ask him to send copies of his corespondense with the Rebbe regarding Ethiopean Jews where the Rebbe writes that they should be assisted and integrated into the Jewish community.

Further, the USA protects one's right to be critical of corruption in religion.
Posted by: SJ | April 23, 2008 at 07:28 PM

It is obvious from my previous post that I was only talking about Shmaryah's responsibilities as a Jew not his rights as a resident of this Great Republic.
To explain it to you in simpler terms in the state of Oregon for example one can legaly kill oneself under certain circumstances yet Torah law prohibits this.
Thus a Jewish doctor would be obligated under Torah law to refrain from helping the patient from killing himself even though the Oregon law allows him to do it. While there is no religious police ( http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/49/20.htm
We can and should control ourselves and try to observe the Torah as much as possible and certainly think twice before publishing things that end up being reprinted on the worst anti-semitic sites.
Gut Moed!

[Enough!]

Even the whole reason this blog was started it turns out was false as I told Shmaryah on the phone and posted here earlier and all he or anyone has to do to verify this is to contact R. Gedalia Axelrod from the Beis Din of Haifa and ask him to send copies of his corespondense with the Rebbe regarding Ethiopean Jews where the Rebbe writes that they should be assisted and integrated into the Jewish community.

----------------------------------

Ariel, could you please obtain and post this correspondence so as to clear the record once and for all? Thanks! Gut moied!

[Shmarya]

1. Gedaliah Axelrod is a leader of Chabad messianists and is hardly a reliable source for anything.

2. Your only knowledge of this alleged correspondence is a blog comment in Russian left by someone anonymously.

3. In your months of claiming this, you have never produced this correspondence or even a credible claim from Rabbi Axelrod that it exists or of its alleged parameters.

4. Ariel Sokolovsky, either post only under your name or stop posting. People have the right to know who makes these claims, and they have the right to judge YOU for what you really are.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

I grew up believing that the CC was an angel among monkeys but after I found out that he called rav Kook ‘Cook Shmook’ and refered to Communist Jews as decedents of Amalek I realize that he was a regular person and maybe as idiot as today’s “gedolim”.

It is amazing that only person who forecast the holocaust was Jabotinsky, an unsung hero.

[Shmarya]

Isaac.

It is a combination of Hester Ponim and Emuna that Hakadosh Baruch Hu would never allow such a thing to happen. For this they should be condemned?

Are you confused?

Some of the worst pogroms ever had swept Russia in the early 1880s. These 'gedolim' not only missed forecasting those pogroms, they also told people even then not to leave Eastern Europe.

God has allowed all types of evil to happen. To say that "God would never allow this" is foolish and ahistorical.

You think modern day Daas Torah truly means infallibility?

NO. "modern day daas torah" means you must follow these men EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE WRONG and you must TREAT THEM AS IF THEY WERE INFALLIBLE.

The Chafetz Chaim had an incredibly close relationship with Rav Kook, you know the ultra zionist Rav Kook. Guess who wrote the Haskomo to Chafetz Chaim?

The Chofetz Chaim was a prominent ANTI-ZIONIST. The Chofetz Chaim got his approbations for the Sefer Chofetz Chaim in 1872.

In 1872, Rav Kook was not yet an open Zionist and Zionism was not even an issue. In fact, in 1872 Rav Kook was only 7 years old.

And that, my friends, is a perfect example of haredism's ahistoricity, its ignorance, and its complete lack of historical context for its beliefs.

[SJ]

>> We can and should control ourselves and try to observe the Torah as much as possible and certainly think twice before publishing things that end up being reprinted on the worst anti-semitic sites.

Ariel is playing dirty to try to silence opposition to the borg/orthodox. Corruption should be brought into the light, something that Shmarya is an expert in doing. XD

[Ariel Sokolovsky www.BostonChabad.com]

B"H

1. Gedaliah Axelrod is a leader of Chabad messianists and is hardly a reliable source for anything.

2. Your only knowledge of this alleged correspondence is a blog comment in Russian left by someone anonymously.

3. In your months of claiming this, you have never produced this correspondence or even a credible claim from Rabbi Axelrod that it exists or of its alleged parameters.

4. Ariel Sokolovsky, either post only under your name or stop posting. People have the right to know who makes these claims, and they have the right to judge YOU for what you really are.

Posted by: Shmarya | April 24, 2008 at 09:05 AM

1)
Rav Gedalia Axelrod told a bochur that it was wrong of him to refuse putting on teffilin on an Ethiopian Jew and mentioned to him the Rebbes letters on this subject to himself from many years ago.
2)
It was not a comment but rather a post by a blog author who is not anonymous.
3) I told you and the readers here they are welcome to do it themselves.
4)I don't know what you are referring to since my comment is under my own name and I haven't posted anything under a nickname here for awhile and when I do it is easily recognizable one to most readers anyway.

[Shmarya]

1. You have a post from one person CLAIMING this. You do not have the letters. You do not have Rabbi Axelrod. You do not have the specifics of it at all.

2. Chabad's position on this with regard to the Kotel tefillin stand is to put on tefillin with EJs ONLY IF EJs ASK.

Chabad is not to approach EJs.

Rabbi Axelrod appears to be making an identical claim.

[Nachum]

Shmarya, in case you didn't know, the Chofetz Chaim did not live in Germany.

Monsey Tzadik, he also never said "Kook Shmook.'

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, in case you didn't know, the Chofetz Chaim did not live in Germany.

Neither did Jabotinsky. Neither did Kasztner.

But your remark is wrong anyway. Newspapers in Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Romania and Russia were full of reports about Hitler, his rise to power and Germany's rearmament.

Mein Kaumpf was printed in many languages, including Hungarian and Slavik languages.

Hitler was not a secret.

[The Anti-Shmarya]

Oh come now. Can we not expect at least plausible sounding arguments from Shmarya?

There was no "STATED 'reason'" from the Chafetz Chaim. Sperber quotes his son, without providing any source, and throws out the term "innovation". Shmarya then takes the huge liberty of amalgamating this with the Chasam Sofer's doctrine.

Be it as it may regarding fire risk from gas & candle. Neither of those mediums carried the added risk of electrocution / electric shock. Rabbis also often have more than reason for taking a given position.

Shmarya tries to make a "case" against the Chafetz Chaim by showcasing selected excerpts from Wikipedia and omitting others. Mein Kampf does not reveal what Shmarya jumps at, rather private conversations with Hitler do. Hitler came to power when the Chafetz Chaim was on his death bed and initially only moved against Jews in his native Germany. There is no evidence the CC was against Jews moving from Germany to Lithuania and as a matter of fact several German yeshiva students in Lithuanian yeshivos never returned to Germany pre-1933.

Shmarya seems to hint that Daas Torah comes hand in hand with a sense of self-importance, yet the CC was as humble as could be.

Should Daas Torah have to be able to predict the Holocaust? That is an interesting question. It was a time of Hester Panim so at least some authorities would say no. The CC was actually asked in early 1933 to cause Hitler's death through kelala or mystical incantations. He declined saying this was something he had to leave to G-d to decide.

This is the territory of learned and holy men like the Chafetz Chaim despite all the big "experts" in hindsight, like some arrogant Minnesotan who has been bent out of shape for years because the Lubavitch movement didn't do enough for Affirmative Action or some "Tzaddik" (in peltz) who is outraged that the Chafetz Chaim quotes Rishonim about the origin of virulently anti-religious people, be they in the form of Commies or some other school of thought.

Pathetic.

[Fleishike Kishke]

Is there insight into the Jewish paralyzation in pre-WWII Europe, from the behavior of Americans in the face of rising gas/food prices today? This is a serious question. And I’m not equating $4 gas with the Holocaust. The pressure is getting turned up, it’s really starting to disrupt peoples lives, but what does the average person do, but hope it’ll get better???

[Shmarya]

You are most definitely a shoteh yourself. In order:

1. There was no "STATED 'reason'" from the Chafetz Chaim. Sperber quotes his son, without providing any source, and throws out the term "innovation". Shmarya then takes the huge liberty of amalgamating this with the Chasam Sofer's doctrine.

You didn't follow all the links. It is written in the MEMOIR of the Chofetz Chaim's son.

Here is an mp3 of Sperber saying this and saying the reason – "hadash assur min hatorah":

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/can-an-ocd-rabb.html

2. Shmarya tries to make a "case" against the Chafetz Chaim by showcasing selected excerpts from Wikipedia and omitting others. Mein Kampf does not reveal what Shmarya jumps at, rather private conversations with Hitler do. Hitler came to power when the Chafetz Chaim was on his death bed and initially only moved against Jews in his native Germany. There is no evidence the CC was against Jews moving from Germany to Lithuania and as a matter of fact several German yeshiva students in Lithuanian yeshivos never returned to Germany pre-1933.

Hitler's RISE TO POWER happened over several years. And his rise did not happen in a vacuum. See here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/daas-torah-and.html

3. Should Daas Torah have to be able to predict the Holocaust? That is an interesting question. It was a time of Hester Panim

See here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/04/daas-torah-and.html

You first conclude the Chofetz Chaim, et al, are holy and pure, and that daas torah is correct. Then you shop around for reasons to make that conclusion work.

Pathetic.

[Sarah]

"Chabad's position on this with regard to the Kotel tefillin stand is to put on tefillin with EJs ONLY IF EJs ASK.
Chabad is not to approach EJs."
So how does Chabad possibly justify this? If Chabad recognizes EJs as Jews then they should approach them just like they approach all other Jews. But if they don't accept EJs as Jews then they can't do tefillin with them at all. It sounds quite hypocritical on Chabad's part, although it wouldn't be the only thing about them that is, but this would be so obvious.

I grew up believing that the CC was an angel among monkeys but after I found out that he called rav Kook ‘Cook Shmook’ and refered to Communist Jews as decedents of Amalek I realize that he was a regular person and maybe as idiot as today’s “gedolim”.

Posted by: The Monsey Tzadik | April 24, 2008 at 09:11 AM
----------------
Why did you believe those ridiculous stories?

[The Anti-Shmarya]

Ok, so it was Sperber who took the liberty of making the CC the siamese twin of the Chasam Sofer. Find one reference in the CC's writings that show he derived the same philosophy from Chadash min Hatorah. No one in their right mind should believe Sperber or Shmarya until seeing the CC's son's memoir and even then it sounds vague and the CC could have had multiple reasons.

At least reasonable people with faith try to defend an old rabbi from generations ago being defamed by some crude ignoramous and his agenda driven guru at Bar Ilan. Shmarya calls this "shopping around". The nerve of the guy when he uses every great rabbi in history as target practice in his macabre game of bulldoze Judaism. That it is when he at least has a target, instead of shooting at nothingness then painting a target around it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

It is the beginning of the end to the Rabbinic Era.

Posted by: yidandahalfa | April 23, 2008 at 10:02 AM

With apologies to REM:

That's great, it starts with a shuckle and shake, dom and tzifardayah, a plague on both your houses -
Shmarya is not afraid. Gives Rubashkin a migraine, listen to yourself kvetch -
gedolim serve their own needs, regardless of their oilam's needs.
Feed it up Glatt Kosher, pas yisroel, yoshon, filtered water. Phony real estate clatter with fear of Crown heights,
Cambria heights. Maidel in a sheitel, represent the 10 sephirot in a government for
hire and a knesset site. Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with the rebbes
breathing down your neck. Team by team bloggers baffled, oy vey,
gevalt. Look at that new chumra! Fine then. Uh oh, overflow, population,
Kirays Joel, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. Gedolim serve their
own needs, listen to your heart bleed. Tell me with the burqa and the
reverent in the far-right - right. You chassidic, misnagdic, slam, fight, bright
light, feeling pretty machmer.

It's the end of the rabbinic era as we know it.
It's the end of the rabbinic era as we know it.
It's the end of the rabbinic era as we know it and I feel fine.

[yidandahalf]

Where have you been? Always good to hear from you, YL. Keep it up!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yid & 1/2: I have been on vacation away from a computer. Good to hear from you, too. Hope you liked the parody you inspired.

Parodies are easy. Google the title and the word "lyrics." Copy, paste, and customize! Try it.