UPDATED: Jewish Slaughter "Under Attack," Chief Rabbi Says

According to statements made last night by Israel's Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger, animals should be treated humanely during the kosher slaughter process because:

1. Jewish law mandates it
2. If we don't, the goyyim and/or PETA will see us and stop kosher slaughter.
3. Shechita, kosher slaughter, is under attack from the goyyim so we have to behave.
4. Common sense and human decency tells us that we should do everything in our power to reduce suffering associated with the food we eat.
5. None of the above

The correct answer(s) after the jump in the extended post below…

According to Ynet, which has a report on Rabbi Metzger's meeting last night with Israeli meat importers, the correct answers: 2 & 3 [all material in square brackets is mine, not Ynet's]:

Jewish slaughter in danger, chief rabbi tells importers
By Neta Sela

Rabbi Metzger initiates meeting with meat importers, asks them to pressure slaughterhouses in South America to adopt 'boxing' method which does not cause animals undue distress. 'The koshering organizations are under attack, and Jews are presented as cruel people,' he warns

After being approached by organizations for the prevention of cruelty to animals across the world, Israel's Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger met Monday evening with importers of kosher meat to Israel.

The meeting was held in a bid to recruit the importers to fight "the international attack initiated by organizations for the prevention of cruelty to animals against the kosher slaughtering," Metzger explained.

The chief rabbi told the meeting attendees that "although these organizations' motives are not always pure, you must do anything in order to prevent animals from suffering, otherwise the entire Jewish slaughtering will be in danger."

During the meeting, Metzger addressed the slaughterhouses in South American, which are the main suppliers of kosher meat imported to Israel under the Chief Rabbinate using the "lift and bind" method [i.e., shackle and hoist slaughter], in which the animal's legs are tied before it is slaughtered [and the animal is hung from the ceiling by one hind leg both before and immediately after slaughter], causing undue distress.

He noted that this was a primitive method and instructed the importers to exert massive pressure on the slaughterhouses they work with and make them stop using this technique and quickly adopt the modern "boxing" method used in Europe [and America, Canada, New Zealand and Australia], in which the beast is spared unnecessary suffering before it is slaughtered.

Metzger stressed that "it is obligatory to examine the knives before each slaughter and ensure that they are not defective, so as not to cause undue distress to the beast. It is unthinkable that the beast will suffer unnecessarily as it is transported to the slaughterhouse." [This appears to be an attempt by Rabbi Metzger to correctly point out that a shochet's knife, if even minutely nicked or damaged, renders slaughter non-kosher, in part because it is presumed to cause unnecessary pain to the animal.]

'Anti-Semitic accusations'
The chief rabbi did not spare criticism of the organizations for the prevention of cruelty to animals, saying he was not convinced their intentions were pure.

"There are different and odd foods like seafood, which are prepared with serious abuse, but for some reason these organizations are only heard when it comes to Jewish slaughter. [This is, of course, false. PETA and other animal rights organizations regularly and publicly work to stop things like seafood harvesting that is unnecessarily cruel. Here is one example.]

[What follows is a blatant falsehood. PETA – which has many Jews working for it, including many in leadership positions – is philo-semitic and has said many times over that, done properly, kosher slaughter is the most humane way to slaughter an animal for food.]

"Koshering organizations in the United States have told me that they were being similarly attacked by these organizations for the prevention of cruelty to animals. They told me that these organizations have serious influence and great power in the United States, and that they use this to present the Jews as cruel people and to make other anti-Semitic accusations. If this attack continues, Jewish slaughter is in danger," Rabbi Metzger said.
The same remarks were made in a booklet handed to the meeting attendees.

"We are living in a reality in which the issue of animals' rights gets a lot of media and public attention. At the same time, different elements are attempting to cancel the Jewish slaughter or make different conditions to disqualify it.

"This compels us to ensure that we do not, God forbid, reach a situation in which those who provoke us will overpower us and the Jewish slaughter will be banned for so-called 'humane' reasons, something which might influence other countries and have very grave results," the booklet stated.

To sum up, the only reason for ending shackle and hoist slaughter or other unnecessary cruelties is because PETA is watching and media outlets (and blogs like this one) publicize what PETA finds.

Without this pressure from 'antisemites,' there would be no reason to stop shackle and hoist or any other abuses.

Of course, it is possible that Rabbi Metzger is playing good cop, bad cop here, with PETA being the bad cop. If so, he would be doing this because he knows that without the real fear of having shechita banned, nothing will ever change.

Whether Rabbi Metzger believes PETA is antisemitic and that kosher slaughter is truly imperiled, or whether it is a ruse used to facilitate needed change, one thing is absolutely clear: PETA is vindicated.

Video:
Shackle and hoist slaughter in South America.
Shackle and Hoist slaughter in America.
Rubashkin 1.
Rubashkin 2.

Posts:
PETA on South American Slaughter.
Rubashkin posts.

[Hat Tip: Michelle.]

UPDATE 3:30 pm – The Jerusalem Post now has a story on this, as well. Besides being better written, the only really different piece of information is that the pens Rabbi Metzger wants to use for shechita are Weinberg Pens, the same pen that Rubashkin uses in Postville and also in South America.

Here's the Jerusalem Post piece:

Chief rabbi urges more humane slaughter methods

By Mattew Wagner

Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger met Monday evening with importers of South American kosher meat to encourage them to phase out the "shackle and hoist" slaughter method and adopt the more humane "rotating pen" method.

Although the Chief Rabbinate has condoned the shackle and hoist method for decades, a clandestine video shot in October 2007 and circulated on the Internet by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has sparked new scrutiny.

Metzger, who is in charge of kosher supervision for the Rabbinate, has been under pressure from animal rights groups to stop the slaughter method.

Two weeks ago The Jerusalem Post reported that Metzger intended to meet with importers to persuade them to stop the shackle and hoist method. Even the Orthodox Union, the largest kosher supervision organization in the world, has advised the Rabbinate to discontinue shackling and hoisting at slaughterhouses that provide Israel with kosher meat.

There was an "international attack initiated by organizations for the prevention of cruelty to animals against the kosher way of slaughtering," Metzger was quoted as saying during the meeting, in a press release from the Chief Rabbinate.

This quote reflected the feeling among many rabbis in the Rabbinate that PETA's criticism was designed to undermine kosher slaughtering altogether.

Sources within the Rabbinate have voiced concerns that Metzger's willingness to compromise on the shackle and hoist issue would shed a negative light on kosher slaughtering as a whole.

In the PETA video, filmed inside a slaughterhouse in Montevideo, Uruguay, a cow is shown hanging from a single leg, struggling and bellowing.

After the animal is put on the ground, it is shown writhing and being restrained by several workers who step on it and prod it before the cut. According to PETA the entire procedure takes more than three minutes.

During the meeting, Metzger told the importers that the shackle and hoist method was "primitive" and instructed the importers "to exert major pressure on the slaughterhouses they work with to make them adopt the rotating pen method."

According to this method, the cow is placed in a pen and flipped upside down. The cow is slaughtered in this inverted position.

Israel imports most of its meat, both kosher and non-kosher, from South America. Even the non-kosher meat is often derived from animals slaughtered in the shackle and hoist method. It becomes non-kosher after failing to meet various halachic requirements that have nothing to do with animal cruelty.

Most South American slaughterhouses, and several older Israeli ones, prepare cows for slaughter by tying the animal's hind leg to a shackle that is attached to a mechanical derrick and hoisting the cow off its feet.

The cow is then lowered to the ground on its side and held by three men - one at the head, one at the hindquarter and a third by one of the forelegs - while a fourth man, a shochet ritual slaughterer, cuts through the trachea and the esophagus.

Comments

[Shmarya]

You are still supporting the evil rabbinical system! You complain about there leadership and then you support it in this respect by denying there cover ups

I try to report the truth, whatever it is.

[yidandahalf]

One of Many, You must understand that although you have the ability, opportunity, and patience to get these immensely long articles up; no one has the same to read them. NO ONE can or will read them. So what is the point? The people who agree with you don't read them and the people who disagree with you don't read them. NO ONE reads such reams of cyberpulp. People want to be informed, entertained, pissed off, vindicated, WHATEVER. But they do not want to be bored and oppressed.

[Ben Yosef]

I find this information Staggering

Eating Meat: Wrecking
The Planet And Creating
A Global Food Shortage
Animal Farming and Global
Warming
‘Production of meat and dairy has a much
Bigger effect on climate change and other
Environmental impacts than that of most grains,Pulses and outdoor fruit and vegetables.’
UK government (2007)
The FAO states that animal farming is responsible for 18 per cent of all global greenhouse gas emissions, including 37 per cent of methane emissions (produced by the digestive system of ruminant animals) – a gas with more than 20 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide (FAO
2006). Animal farming also creates 65 per cent of another potent greenhouse gas, nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide (FAO 2006).

Most of this comes from manure. And it’s not just animals reared for their
meat who produce greenhouse gases; on average,a dairy cow belches out 500 litres of methane every day (Callard 2007).

The transportation of animals, farm
supplies and feed – along with the
heat and electricity used by
slaughterhouses and farms –
further increase the contribution to
global warming.

These facts are are an eye opener to all and warning sign for us now.
Lets not be stupid foolish.
See what is happening in our world today and make a change for the good, I agree with the JVNA on this too. The UN reports confirms it!
Thank you

[one of many]

Finally! Ben Yosef have you read this article of food grain shorage?
Its also an eye opener as well!!
Shalom
Global Food Shortage
‘Those who consume livestock products and fish
are competing directly with those who need grain
for food.’
Lester Brown, past president of the Worldwatch
Institute, USA.
Almost half of the world’s food harvest is fed to
farmed animals and almost all of those calories go
into simply keeping the animals alive. Only a small
fraction of the calories consumed by farmed animals
are actually converted into meat. An acre of cereal
can produce five times more protein than an acre
devoted to meat production; and legumes (beans,
lentils and peas) can produce ten times as much
(Seager 1995). Rather than adding to our capacity to
feed the world’s human population, putting animal
products at the centre of food policy diminishes the
possibility of doing so.
If we are to feed a growing human population,
the only choice is to rely upon a plant-based diet.
Bruach Hashem

[one of many]

Ben here's a interesting clip
http://jewishveg.com/asacredduty/
really makes sence..

[one of many]

also did you know that
Animal farming also plays a destructive
role in deforestation. In Latin America, some 70 per cent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing (FAO 2006).

Soya production for animal feed is another major cause of deforestation. Around 75 per cent of global production is fed to farmed animals (Worldwatch Institute 2006).

It is the demand for meat that drives
the production of soya and, therefore, the
destruction of the rainforest.

Going vegan saves one acre of forest every year (Robbins 1992).

So are they suggesting that because there is a demand for meat that is the reasonfor the destruction of the rainforests? to prdouce soya for the animals to eat so we can have meat?

Going vegan saves one acre of forest every year is that each person if they went vegan would save one acre of forest every year?

10 going vegan, 10 acres,saved
100 going vegan,100 acres saved
a 1.000 going vegan 1,000 acres saved
1,000,000 going vegan a million acres saved?
and there are how many billions people on the planet 6, 7 ?

Interesting!

[Shmarya]

Not the brightest vegan bulb, are you?

Again, the PROTEIN in animal products has to be replaced with protein from plant sources.

There are NO naturally vegan societies anywhere on earth. None.

Know why?

Because vegans who live with chronic food shortages DIE because their bodies eat their muscles for protein.

Vegans only exist in prosperous countries with lots of food choices.

Could we even grow enough wheat and soy to replace all the fish, fowl and beef people eat?

No way.

Freakazoid true believers like Richard Schwartz misrepresent the science and economics involved.

So do you.

[one of many]

Nothing like breaking your own rules ay?
YOU make rules on your site, you cant even keep! Isnt any wonder that you would keep any of Hashems Rules?
Just a thought not a punn.
We still love you Shmarya, its your thread so you can do what you will, even if it doesnt make any sence!!!

We still love you!

[one of many]

Listen up, what do people eat in other countries other than North America and europe? WHich countries eat meat? the most?
All that we are saying is that too many people eat meat, more and more people are eating meat, and the demand for raising and feeding these livestock is hard to keep up with,. there fore a shortage of grain.

If, more and more people eat grain instead of meat, no one would buy meat, there would be more grain, plus we wouldnt have the probelms we have today with all the above mentioned things, Global warming, polution, grain shortage,diseases like mad cow, jacobs krutzvil disease, from eating meat, you literaly die from this meat consumption that has proven to be infected with these illnesses, remember 145 millions pounds of beef were recalled, just weeks ago, and it is not going to get any better! they find the loop holes they can find, for example,
they are alowed to use ground up cattle remains in the animal feed and chicken poop! but not the brain! See the loophole that the industry finds to feed the catle crap literally, and then we eat the finished product. this is not clean!

First of all Cattle are vegitarians, its not natural,or right to feed them animals as food.
Lets face the truth and facts presented before us today, things are not the same as they used to be years ago, many years ago!
SO we have to think, what is best for our souls. As a Jew, we have to think harder, faster, better. We have a obligation to our G_d and we have been given this responsibility to take care of what he created entrusted to us!
I respect that agreement that was made with Moses and the israelites in the desert and I respect what ever G_d is showing us today, even If I have to make small sacrifices of Giving up something that I formerly loved and that includes the food we eat! If we cant listen to Hashem theres nothing left to say! He knows what is best for us. If he told us to become Vegans vegitarians, then I stongly suggest that we listen. How do we know that is the message today?
Take a look around you, like a song said...sign sign everywhere a sign...DOnt do this dont do that....Cant you read the sign?

How do you think Hashem Communicates with us today? Warning signs are all over the place! Foolish if we dont heed them and obey, foolish.

[michael ben drosai]

shmarya - these guys are truly scary - it's like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" "Mean are from Mars, Vegans are from Vegania" with all the G-d loves you stuff - when you raise a valid point they just shoot back "but Hashem loves you" warmed over Jesus of love crap. - and you're fighting for relaxed conversion standards?

[Shmarya]

You still don't get it, do you?

We have to replace the PROTEIN. How much wheat does it take to make seitan? Do you know?

Who many soybeans to make soy bologna?

You people are brainwashed.

You have no understanding of human physiology, no understanding of normative science, no understanding of why there are food shortages.

You just spew cut and paste press releases with out of context 'facts.'

I communicate with a leading scientist who is pro-vegetarian and pro-humane slaughter.

He pointed out that Richard (and therefore JVNA) has no understanding of the science and misrepresents it regularly.

Every professional "on your side" I have ever spoken to says the same thing.

Okay, JVNA. Go pat yourselves on the back for a job well done. All 20 of you agree with each other. You've done it! You've convinced yourselves that you are correct! You withstood the challenges of fact and logic! Pathetic.

[Shmarya]

My last comment was directed to JVNA members, not to michael ben drosai.

Yes, mbd, these people do act and sound like cult members. They do so because their cause – veganism –is more important to them than the truth.

They twist Tanach and Jewish law to fit their understanding of what the world should be – never mind there is no history of such interpretation, no platform in Jewish law or history or mainstream science to hang it on.

JVNA is a cult, plain and simple.

Check out that 'documentary' film they made. It looks like a propaganda film from the height of the cold war.

What we need to do is start a competing group, Jewish Vegetarians of America, say, or Jewish Ethical Food Choices, and produce sane, well sourced information.

The last three years could have brought tremendous positive change. JVNA wasted the opportunity.

I've said this before and I'll probably say it again, but PETA is the most sane animal rights group out there. Every bit of change we've had comes from PETA's work. JVNA has been nothing but counterproductive.

[Ben Yosef]

Shmarya, you bring disgrace upon our people with your conduct.
Your behavior is not appropriate for one who considers themselves to be a good Jewish person.
Further more your argument seem very weak and not fact supportive.
I'm afraid, this time you loose!

[Ben Yosef]

There is no change only worse.
wake up to reality. The facts to support this group of people are true.
and you are not.

[Ben Yosef]

PETA is doing a great job as well

[one of many]

Yes PETA and JVNA are doing right!
Good for them!

[Shmarya]

There is no change only worse.

Really?

That would come as a big surprise to those of us who now know about the abuses in kosher slaughter. It would surprise the actual people who work on the ground to bring change.

You JVAN people are nothing but cultists.

[one of many]

Common this has been going on for years, where are you getting you info from!
years! Dont tell me that if your child was being abused how long will it take you to get your 2 by 4 out and do something about it? YEARS??
I dont think so! I guarantee you that IMMIDIATLY you would seek justice!

But i guess it doesnt matter, there JUST ANIAMLS right????
THey can wait!!! cause no body heres there voice!

RIGHT SHMARYA!!!!
G_D forbid you are in any of the situations that i mentioned! because G_d only knows what quick resolving measures you will take to see that justice is being done right!!!!

Comon SHMARYA!!

[one of many]

Really?

That would come as a big surprise to those of us who now know about the abuses in kosher slaughter. It would surprise the actual people who work on the ground to bring change.

You JVAN people are nothing but cultists.

BS!!!
They knew about this since 2004!

[one of many]

The real cultist are those sitting in there high courts in New York! Who do nothing but mislead the Jewish people!
If its not child molesting cover up its Kosher slaughter cover up.
Not in the best interest of the Jewish people or there health for that matter!
Who side are you on anyways?
The liars???

[Shmarya]

Not too bright, are you?

1. The most horrific abuse was stopped within one day of PETA's release of its undercover video in 2004.

2. Tremendous pressure has been brought against Agriprocessors since then.

3. The Conservative Movement has (very slowly) moved to a standard for humane food called Hechsher Tzedek.

4. Rubashkin stopped shackle and hoist slaughter in South America.

5. PETA exposed Rubashkin abuses in Nebraska. I exposed the OU's lying about that abuse. The abuse stopped.

6. PETA exposed shackle and hoist slaughter abuses in South America. Israel's chief rabbis are no moving to ban all shackle and hoist meat.

I could go on. The point is, you people are truly insane. You damage the people that do good, you damage the cause you think you are working for, and you impede change.

I can tell you that JVNA's insanity caused rabbis to stay out of the fight against Rubashkin abuses. They disliked what Rubashkin wa sdoing but found JVNA to be so cultlike, so outside of Jewish norms, so insane, that they were afraid to give anything linked to JVNA any support.

You people are your own worst enemies. And animals suffer as a result.

[one of many]

here is an example of those who like to lie about this situation of so called "Humane Kosher Slaughter" read for yourself what Rabbis are saying to people what there response is, A LIE!!!

Question taken from Ask Rabbi Lerner

Kosher - Slaughtering Animals

Hi Rabbi Lerner,
Our son has a non-Jewish friend who saw a piece on TV about kosher slaughtering and saw that it looked as if the animal was suffering as it was killed. I did not know what to tell her about this. I thought the animals do not suffer during the ritual. Can you help me with an explanation?
Thank you,
Marilyn

Answer

Dear Marilyn,

Kosher slaughter is also known in Hebrew as "shechita."

Judaism has always respected the lives of animal - from the time of giving of the Ten Commandments until the present. Rules for kosher slaughtering of animals developed from the rules of the sacrificial system in the Temple. By the time of the Rabbis - at least 2000 years ago - Jews took the lives of animals as humanely as possible according to the best science of the day.

During those 3000 and more years, animals were slaughtered in the most inhumane ways by virtually every people on the face of the earth. This inhumane slaughtering continues today in more places in the world than not.

Recently, kosher slaughtering has been undergoing some change in response to new scientific information. Jews have begun to alter the traditional "hoisting and shackling" to favor a pen, even though it is a much slower procedure and increases the cost of kosher meat.

In addition to being lifted up, a ritual slaughterer must move to the animal quickly, use a knife that is incredibly sharp and without even the slightest nick, and cut through the animal's trachea and esophagus in a single motion (at least one of these for fowl). All this is required in order to try to minimize the animal's suffering.

The ultimate question is whether it is possible to kill an animal without causing some pain and fear? Given the answer is not definitely positive, Judaism has endorsed vegetarianism - which does not require killing an animal - as a "higher" form of eating.

In sum, you can reassure your son that kosher slaughtering is the way that Jews try to minimize the pain and fear felt by animals being killed for food.

Best Wishes,

Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner
on judaism.about.com

[Shmarya]

And?

Again, try to think, try to process – change is not 100% immediately. Change is a process.

Are there still rabbis who misrepresent current kosher slaughter? Sure, many.

The question you need to be asking is, Are there rabbis who now want to see change?

The answer to that question is, yes, there are many who do – far more than existed 4 years ago.

[one of many]

1. The most horrific abuse was stopped within one day of PETA's release of its undercover video in 2004.

They should have been shut down!!
ITs 2008, and situation is growing worse!
Not just inhumane methods here and south america but in general, all the negative things attached to raising selling buying and eating meat contribute to more than just the issue of wether its done Kosher or not!!!

Its a vicous cycle!
and its gotten out of hand!
simply, we dont need it!!!
We can live with out meat and save the heartahces and pains and sicknesses and diseases and cancer and food shortages.
DOnt you care about anyone but your self??

Eating meat is a desire!
Do you really desire meat so much you would not want to give it up even if it meant it would some how contribute to someone else having food for one day???

You love meat so much, you desire it so much, you would not consider even for a moment to give it up, even if it meant that someone in this world would have grain to eat for that day????

You think only of yourself not others?
You can live with out meat anyone can!
And if you do, that means someone has something they did not have before.
Food!
You have choices other may not.
You can make a difference, you choose not to even try.
You underestimate the power of One!
ultimatly G_d.

Faithless and twisted, and selfish.
For once think of not yourself, think of doing good for someone else!

[one of many]

Again, try to think, try to process – change is not 100% immediately. Change is a process.

Are there still rabbis who misrepresent current kosher slaughter? Sure, many.

The question you need to be asking is, Are there rabbis who now want to see change?

The answer to that question is, yes, there are many who do – far more than existed 4 years ago.

The only way to bring a change, starts with you and me!!

We have to stand up and say no!
I will not buy your meat
No change
No meat

Thats making a change!

What kind of change is it if you continue to purchase the bloddy meat???
NONE!!!
Why should they change if there sales are sky hi????
THEY WONT!!!

[Ben Yosef]

Real Change

[Shmarya]

Eating meat is a biological need, not a desire. We can get around that need careful use of of soy and wheat proteins and dairy products.

Did you ever ask yourself why so many "vegetarians" eat fish? Why so many "vegetarians" go off the wagon a few times per year and eat meat and fowl?

It is because we have a biological need for the protein and a craving for the savory (glutamate) taste. They go hand in hand.

The change you want to bring is 100% and absolute. It is immediate.

It is also impractical, impossible and so foolish that most people simply tune out what you say.

What happens as a result?

No change.

You can't change human biology. You can't change human cravings.

But what you can change is human actions.

We can make kosher slaughter humane. That has already happened in many plants that slaughter for Hebrew National and others and that sell their non-kosher output to McDonalds.

How did this happen?

It happened because of pressure from PETA and because of the work of Temple Grandin. McDonalds through the FMI adopted strict standards for humane slaughter that are enforced with unannounced audits.

We can stop abuses like throat-ripping at Rubashkin. (Try reading up on that. You can start here:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/rubashkin.html)

The point is, your behavior does not bring change – it impedes change.

Process that.

[one of many]

You should not put your trust in men
who lie! Betrayal has no boundaries!

How do you know that there word is any good when in the first place, they decieved and lied to the Jewish people about the meat being "Properly Kosher Slaughtered" in the first place? The original intent was malicious! no appologie no remorse, no repentance even!!!

They lied before they got caught, thats the truth!!!!

There is no guarantee when we turn our backs they will do it again!

The point is they were caught doing what they were not supposed to do!

Dishonest, betrayal, and EVIL!!

I will not trust any OU Rabbinical authority stamp of aproval on any "MEAT" after such a scandall breakout revealved to be true!! PERIOD!

That would be foolish. Such Ungoldy behaviour.

Psalm 146 assures us of G_ds infinite wisdom

1 Praise the L_RD! Praise the L_RD, O my soul!
2 I will praise the L_RD while I live; I will sing praises to my G_d while I have my being.
3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
5 How blessed is he whose help is the G_d of Jacob, Whose hope is in the L_RD his G_d,
6 Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;
7 Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry. The L_RD sets the prisoners free.
8 The L_RD opens the eyes of the blind; The L_RD raises up those who are bowed down; The L_RD loves the righteous;
9 The L_RD protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and the widow, But He thwarts the way of the wicked.
10 The L_RD will reign forever, Your G_d, O Zion, to all generations. Praise the L_RD!

Yes But He thwarts the way of the wicked.

If we are lunatics for trusting in G_d and his wisdom to guide us in these troubled times, then
we are guilty!

[Ben Yosef]

One of many, you are wright!
They got caught, thats a valid point
One might think evil intentions for sure.
thank you for your insight
Shalom

[kiki]

Didnt G_d provide Manna for most of the part of the 40 years for the israelites in the desert?
So i guess we can live a Vegitarian, lifestyle, without meat.
If they can do it so can we!

[michael ben drosai]

simply breathtaking - kinda makes "cathy" seem almost normal - but you're right - the JVNA gives any type of legitimate reform a black eye b/c of it's utter wackiness - the "movie" was simply Richard's 5 or 6 talking points on screen for those who can't read (didja see the cow cry? three times ? in slo mo? does anyone remember the indian crying in the canoe commercial?) I thought it was a nice touch giving so much screen time to that yochana gershon guy ( a self proclaimed bratzlov musmach of R Zalman no less - gevald!) - the payis added the patina of real Judaism to the puff piece. The footage of pigs suffering is sure to resonate deeply within the Orthodox community (whose call was that?)
I saw some rabbi take richard to task on the jcarrot blog - richard claims he wrote 130 articles and the rabbi responsed "actually you wrote one article 130 times" - priceless

[one of many]

Michael ben drosai, and Shamrya.

Have you tried the challenge?
A good cleansing perfect time of year.

lets call it spring cleaning!
thats the challange of the week!
See if you or any one can do it!
then tell us how you feel!
heres the vegie challenge
http://veg.ca/content/view/26/55/

It looks good so try it!

[Shmarya]

I've been a non-meat, non-fowl eater for 3.5 years.

[one of many]

so whats your beef?

[Shmarya]

simply breathtaking - kinda makes "cathy" seem almost normal

MBD, I did some checking. It seems Cathrine, One of Many, and Ben Yosef are all the same person.

Gotta love these JVNA cultists. They invent their own cheering section and believe their own spin.

Just like Richard wrote the same article 130 times, this person leaves the same comment 130 times – she just changes her name to make it less conspicuous.

[Shmarya]

so whats your beef?

Your misrepresentation of the facts.

Your shrill preaching.

Your insane idea that you can determine what is kosher because you know what God wants and no one else does (except for Richard Schwartz and your fellow cultists.

[one of many]

you are quite the character. I did some checking myself, and found that Shmarya, and Michael ben drosai and Rabbi Ariel are the same person!

[one of many]

three heads are better than one, right?

[one of many]

Your facts are not acurate.
You much remind me of my 15 year old son, who I love dearly, but the difference is I can reason with my son, you are a hard nut to break!
but I wont bother here any more either, like many you swish away with your false interpretations and acusations. Have fun on your own, or who ever plays your games

They are insane to continue playing them
So good by

[Shmarya]

Make sure to tell Richard what a good job you did convincing yourself.

[michael ben drosai]

you are quite the character. I did some checking myself, and found that Shmarya, and Michael ben drosai and Rabbi Ariel are the same person!

scotty - who laughed harder at that one - you or me? (I suspect R Ariel is a bit flagging in the sense of humor dept - he's got other, much bigger fish to fry!)

BTW - my diet is largely vegetarian and macrobiotic. The straw man in Richard's debate is that the opposite of NEVER eating meat is ALWAYS eating meat - it's like the Flintstones where he gets the rack of ribs and it tips over the car (I love that image) there's simply no room for moderation in their world which is probably the single largest factor which relegates them to the fringes (other than their hokey science and halacha) - Ironically the truths in his logic (and yes - it probably makes sense for a few reasons to MINIMIZE red meat consumption) are obscured by the militancy of his positions and his public about faces.

[Shmarya]

So true.

[Alleybooboo]

Repeat:

"To C-Girl and Conserva-Guy,

Your efforts to secure animal foods from truly humane sources is extremely commendable and I hope that you are lobbying other Jews, who want to eat animal foods, to do likewise.

For 3300 years, until the modern advent of the inhumane and cruel "Factory Farming System", animals raised for Kosher Slaughter were treated with care and compassion and fed the diet commanded to them by HaShem in Gen: 1-30, a diet that HaShem never changed. During this time, modern day degenerative maladies such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc., were almost unknown.

The JVNA places its main emphasis on encouraging Jews to eliminate animal foods altogether, but also emphasizes to Jews, that cannot do so, to do what both of you are doing.

Because HaShem gave permission in the Torah for Jews to partake of meat, after prohibiting carnivorous gluttony earlier, no Jew can tell another that eating meat is prohibited.

Many Jews I know have come to me for advice about eating meat and I tell all of them that there is no Kosher meat in the local market and, respectively, they should investigate truly humane sources such as "Blackwings Kosher Bison" or "Rosenblatts Texas Kosher Beef".

So we are allies in HaShem's service instead of adversaries and this fact, unfortunately, has not been properly appreciated by FM.

HaShem's Richest Blessings to both of you."

[yidandahalf]

Whatever, JVNA people. I do not have any energy for this thread. I only ask one thing of you and that is please do not start with any of the coloncleanse spiel. PLEASE do not go there. I have a feeling some of you are chomping at the bit.
And actually Reb Ariel is pretty funny, he is one of the funniest dudes on this blog. You just don't get him.

[Shmarya]

John (AKA, Alleybooboo)–

I have this little problem with a commenter using different names. Your friend Catherine did this to make it look like she had support for her positions – which she did not actuall have.

Please stick to the one you always use, John Diamond.

[michael ben drosai]

what did I tell you? 3 jews - one modem (whenever that crazy Diamond shines on, it's a dead giveaway - he has one talking point (unlike Richard who has 5) - his big shtick is the flood and the antedeluvian Genesis diet - you can spot it a mile away no matter what the blog name

[Shmarya]

I think he did it to both irritate me and to give support to Catherine. He didn't try to hide who he was.

Still, it does show what JVNA is.

[one of many]

The strongest support for vegetarianism as a positive ideal anywhere in Torah literature is in the writing of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hakohen Kook (1865-1935).

Rav Kook was the first Chief Rabbi of pre-state Israel and a highly respected and beloved Jewish spiritual leader in the early 20th century. He was a mystical thinker, a forceful writer, and a great Torah scholar.

His powerful words on vegetarianism are found primarily in his A Vision of Vegetarianism and Peace (edited by Rabbi David Cohen, 'The Nazir').

Rav Kook believes that the permission to eat meat was only a temporary concession; he feels that a God who is merciful to his creatures would not institute an everlasting law permitting the killing of animals for food.

He states:

The progress of dynamic ideals will not be eternally blocked. Through general, moral and intellectual advancement, "when they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 32:34) shall the latent aspiration of justice for the animal kingdom come out into the open, when the time is ripe.

Process that, From a a highly respected and beloved Jewish spiritual leader
Rav Kook who was the first Chief Rabbi of pre-state Israel!!!

[one of many]

anyone respect Rav Cooks teachings?

here is more

According to Rav Kook, because people had sunk to an extremely low level of Spirituality, it was necessary that they be given an elevated image of themselves as compared to animals, and that they concentrate their efforts into first improving relationships between people.

He felt that were people denied the right to eat meat, they might eat the flesh of human beings due to their inability to control their lust for flesh.

He regards the permission to slaughter animals for food as a "transitional tax" or temporary dispensation until a "brighter era" is reached when people would return to vegetarian diets.

This is that brighter era.

[Shmarya]

Do you think you're writing to children?

Rav Kook had very UNUSUAL views with regard to the messianic age – which is what he is referring to in your above quote.

I know your cult leader Richard did not explain this to you but one or two rabbinic opinions out of HUNDREDS does not an obligation make.

You can't point to the UNUSUAL and then claim the unusual is the norm.

Now, to help you and your fellow cultists process, here is an interview I did with Dovid Cohen (the Nazir's) son.

You know him by another name – Rabbi Sha'ar Yashuv Cohen, Chief Rabbi of Haifa

Rav Kook was the sandek of an elderly friend of mine. And Shear Yashuv Cohen is related to another friend.

Besides your shrill preaching, you lack even the basic understanding of context.

That is your fault.

Why?

Because you listen to your cult leader and shut off your own mind.

[Shmarya]

Bad link. Sorry.

Try this: Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen.

[one of many]

Many Jewish spiritual leaders including
The famous Jewish Torah commentator, Rashi
and Many other Torah commentators include

Maimonides,
Nachmanides,
Rabbi Joseph Albo,
Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch,
Moses Cassuto,
and Nehama Leibowitz.

For example, in Nehama Leibowitz commentary From Adam to Noah he states the following,

You are permitted to use the animals and employ them for work, have dominion over them in order to utilize their services for your subsistence, but must not hold their life cheap nor slaughter them for food. Your natural diet is vegetarian

The famous Jewish Torah commentator, Rashi states the following about G_d's first dietary law:

G_d did not permit Adam and his wife to kill a creature and to eat its flesh. Only every green herb shall they all eat together.

The above opinions are consistent with the Talmud, which states that people were initially vegetarians "Adam was not permitted meat for purposes of eating."

And G_d said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit--to you it shall be for food." (Gen.1:29)

G_d's original intention/plan for us, was vegetarian.

[Shmarya]

1. Nehama Leibowitz was a woman, not a man.

2. That Jewish thought holds (incorrectly, BTW) that man was originally vegetarian does NOT in any way mean Jewish thought says that man should now be vegetarian.

3. You can't make a logical argument or even muster coherent facts. Why? You cult leader Richard can't, and you get your 'material' from him and his derivatives.

[one of many]

We are observant, Torah keeping Jews and so are you
My question is, do you love your fellow Jew?
Shmarya, do you love your fellow Jew
Thats all you need to answer pleasefor me.
You that we love you but my question for the day is Do you love any of us?
ANY?

[one of many]

Yes Leibowitz was a Woman!! One that should be hightly respected for her work.

She also commented on the Torah readings regularly for the Voice of Israel radio station. From what I understand she was respected for her work and also was awarded the Israelie prize for this work she was doing because she furthered appriciation and understanding of the Scriptures.

[one of many]

We are observant, Torah keeping Jews and so are you
My question is, do you love your fellow Jew?
Shmarya, do you love your fellow Jew
Thats all you need to answer please for me.
We love you but my question for the day is Do you love any of us?
ANY?

[Shmarya]

What in the world does this have to do with your incessant preaching, your misuse of Jewish sources, and your dictatorial understanding of what is and what is not Judaism?

[one of many]

Shmarya, We are observant, Torah keeping Jews we love Hashem and so do you.
My question is, do you love your fellow Jew
Shmarya?
Do you love your fellow Jew?
Thats all if you can please answer the question in all honesty for me.

We love you but my question for today March 12 2008 is
Do you love any of us?
ANY of us?

[Shmarya]

Again, the issue here is not ahavat yisrael. The issues are:

1. your incessant preaching,

2. your misuse of Jewish sources.

3. your dictatorial understanding – often based on no actual Jewish sources –of what is and what is not Judaism.

What you preach is not Judaism.

[one of many]

I never claim to be a rabbi or preacher
I am a Torah Observant Jew like you, thats all. I love my fellow Jew and my Neighbour, and I love our G_d with completness.

SO again, my question was not answered by you Shmarya.
I state my claim please will you state yours in regards to love for your fellow Jew please for all of us here.
Once and for all please answer the question, simple yes or no will suffice.

Do you love your fellow Jew?
Any of us?
Thank you