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February 05, 2008

MOSHE RUBASHKIN & SON GUILTY; Head of Crown Heights Community Council Felon – Again

That's right. Moshe Rubashkin is now a felon for the second time, and the Crown Heights Community Council – headed by Moshe Rubashkin – is headed by a felon awaiting sentencing.

Crown Heights residents elected Moshe Rubashkin head of the CHCC only a few months after his parole. Rubashkin served more than one year on federal bank fraud charges.

But Rubashkin, who at one point promised to leave the check writing to other council leaders, was in fact involved in another fraud.

Details in the extended post below…

Building owner admits to  storing chemical waste

Man's son also pleads guilty to lying about who owned the property

A Brooklyn, N.Y., man pleaded guilty Monday to storing chemical waste at his former textile mill in Allentown, and his son pleaded guilty last month to lying about who owned the building, the U.S. attorney's office said.

Moshe Rubashkin, 49, ran Montex Textiles at 1101 S. Sixth St. until about 2002, then stored chemical waste at the site without a permit, according to a statement released from the office of U.S. Attorney Patrick Meehan.

Sholom Rubashkin, 28, also of Brooklyn, lied to federal investigators when he said his family didn't own the building during the time the chemicals were stored there, the statement says.

As part of the plea deals, Moshe and Sholom Rubashkin agreed to be held responsible for paying the government $450,000 for the site cleanup. The money will be divided between the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Allentown.

Moshe Rubashkin pleaded guilty to one count of illegal storage of hazardous waste without a permit. Sholom Rubashkin pleaded guilty Jan. 7 to one count of making a materially false statement. The charges were recommended by a federal grand jury.

Sentencing for Moshe Rubashkin is scheduled for July 16. Sholom Rubashkin is scheduled to be sentenced March 18. Each faces a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

Montex was a textile dyeing, bleaching and weaving business at S. Sixth and Cumberland streets.

Fires at the building prompted the EPA to initiate a major cleanup of the property in October 2005. The cleanup included removing containers of hazardous waste.

Allentown fire officials ruled that a blaze on April 19, 2005, was arson. There were three other fires at the old mill that year -- May 19, July 21 and July 25.

Here's a copy of the Federal indictment.

Here is the press release from the US Attorney issued at the time of indictment. Curiously, the release was not widely circulated by the US Attorney. New York City newspapers and other media appear not to have been sent the release. This makes little sense because both Rubashkins live in Brooklyn and their attempts to defraud were based in Brooklyn.

You'll also note that, based on the USDOJ's description of the crimes committed, more severe charges could have been brought against Moshe and Shalom Rubashkin.

Further, based on information FailedMessiah.com received over two years ago, more Rubashkin family members and confidants could have been charged.

This might lead one to suspect that the USDOJ is going light on the Rubashkins.

Why would this be?

Perhaps because of who now sits in the White House and, more specifically, who was the US Attorney General at the time the indictment was filed.

Moshe Rubashkin's brother-in-law, Rabbi Milton Balkany, has deep Republican connections and has himself been in trouble with the US Government. Balakany walked away from a scheme that saw him misappropriate almost $1 million dollars meant to aid handicapped children.

Did Balkany pull some strings to save his brother-in-law from more severe charges and other members of his extended family from indictment?

Time will tell.
                   

Comments

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it is becoming amply evident that consuming anything rubashkin, aaron's or anything agriprocessors, is as bad for the soul of innocent yidden as the consumption of cholov stam, or even worse.

You neglected to mention that Moshe Rubashkin in effect controls the Crown Heights Vaad Hakashruth which in turn certifies Sholom Rubashkin's meat.

Moshe Rubashkin in effect controls the Crown Heights Vaad Hakashruth which in turn certifies Sholom Rubashkin's meat.

wow! speak of arm's length relationship.

Archie –

Thanks. I'm not sure how close that control is, however. There is much infighting there.

Do you have any information re this?

According to information on DaasHakohol.com (that was also excerpted to other blogs like UOJ), Moshe Rubashkin kicked out Rabbi Schwei and installed Rabbi Osdaba as his puppet. Several of Osdaba's sons were then given jobs at the Vaad, the Council and at Agri. Many Lubavitchers among both the regular and Messianist crowds have stopped eating Rubashkin because they are hearing inside info about corruption at Agri and believe that the Vaad Hakashruth has been compromised. Some no longer eat anything that is supervised by the CHK.

Rabbi Osdoba is the Av Beit Din.

You identify Rabbi Osdaba by his correct title. What Moshe Rubashkin did is make sure that Osdaba is the only one officially calling the shots at the CHK.

For years Brook, not the rabbis, called the shots.

Brook has been out since being in an accident if I recall reading correctly. That's when Rubashkin made his move.

Brook is a very bad guy.

How is Brook a bad guy? According to some blog commentary out there, you'd think the guy is the goodwill ambassador.

He has a long history of behavior you would object to.

--You neglected to mention that Moshe Rubashkin in effect controls the Crown Heights Vaad Hakashruth which in turn certifies Sholom Rubashkin's meat.--

Don't Weismandel and OU certify Rubashkin's meat?

CHK certifies Rubashkin's "Shor Habor" label.

Rabbi Zeilengold certifies the non-glatt, although the case has been made that Rubashkin "glatt" is a scam employing a trick that has never been used before by anyone claiming to offer glatt meat. This is of course besides the point that all Rubashkin product are suspected of not being kosher period.

Rabbi Hatchuel also certifies a special Rubashkin label for Syrians and Sephardim, although there are rumors that he is bailing out to follow KAJ's lead.

There is also a Rabbi Weiss, residing in Postville, who certifies a large Rubashkin concession in Los Angeles. UOJ and Yudel Shain have been trying to find out who Weiss is and what his connection to Rubashkin is.

I think he's a Chabadnik, isn't he? His father is a rabbi (or was a rabbi) in Miami. I think he's somehow related to Rubashkin.

There was a story written by some 'reporter' about one of the Rubashkin inviting him to a mikve , which the reporter being non-religious didn't quite appreciate. I thought WHY invite someone like that to a mikve?? The answer is clear now, the reporter will write about that then people will think the Rubashkin is all G-d fearing and all of that (trust the meat).
What a con job!

>it is becoming amply evident that consuming anything rubashkin, aaron's or anything agriprocessors, is as bad for the soul of innocent yidden as the consumption of cholov stam, or even worse.

Posted by: Yosef ben Matitya | February 05, 2008 at 09:29 AM <

Chalav stam is 100% kosher as long as it has a reliable hechsher. Cholov Yisroel is a scam. You indoctrinated idiot.

--Chalav stam is 100% kosher as long as it has a reliable hechsher. Cholov Yisroel is a scam. You indoctrinated idiot.--

As one who consumes chalav stam, I would suggest that you read Rabbi Feinstein's tshuvot n chalav stam. He permitted it, but he had to jump through some serious hoops in order to do so. So you are announcing your ignorance by referring to cholov yisroel as a scam. There is also another concern that has been raised recently relating to certain procedures conducted on cows that may cause the cows to be considered treifa. Rabbi Feinstein did not address those concerns either because he wasn't aware of that procedure or because the procedure was less commonly used at that time. So even if you accept that chalav stam is kosher there is a separate issue you must deal with. My rabbis still sanction chalav stam so I continue to use it, but it sure as hell isn't a slam dunk.

Actually, hachmaei Provence and other rishomim allowed gevinat akum because the rennet used in their countries was predominantly vegetable in origin.

The Tashbetz held that in any country without commonly found camels, the only non-ksher animal that can easily be milked, all milk is kosher.

Rav Moshe says that, because the government of the US fines farmers found to be adulterating milk, and because such adulteration is exceedingly rare, all US milk has the staus of halav yisrael.

That is not "jumping through hoops."

So-calledh alav yisrael milk has very light supervision. A mashgiach may be at the point of milking once per day for a brief moment. Sometimes he is only in the general area, not within site of the milking machines. Most often, he on the road between farms.

If the point is to prevent adulteration – which in practice does not happen anyway for a variety of reasons, including bth problems with pasteurizing and processing adulterated batches of milk and government supervision, testing and fines and their potential economic after effects – then the government does a better job than the rabbis.

In other words, if there were two types of milk available, the first regular halav stam and the other halav yisrael with NO government supervision, the halav stam would have better supervision.

Your understanding of the issue is flawed – but then so is your understanding of most every halakic issue, from brain death to your morning cereal with milk.

I talked to a Food Science scientist. The issue of non-cow milk getting into the milk supply is a BIG concern for the government. Milk cows are fed food that is NOT laced with penicillin- any other animal will probably be fed food laced with penicillin- which WILL get into the milk supply- Why the concern? Because there are MANY people that are allergic to Penicillin and many people would have a reaction and DIE. They DO check for this in milk and many other things. They can even tell if the farmer is thinning his milk out with water.

You need to talk to your local extension agents rather than a Food Science scientist as the information this individual is giving you is not accurate.

The vitamin D in most brands of cholov Yisroel may also be treif.

Don't count on the OU to do anything about these issues when tens of millions of dollars of their revenue is at stake.

The Vitamin D cannot be triefe. It is in and of itself inedible. It is not a food. Further, any taste it may have is not palatable.

All vitamin D used in OU certified milks are from kosher approved sources. No exceptions.

--Your understanding of the issue is flawed--

Well Master Shmarya says its flawed so it must be true. Do enlighten us oh great one, what do you think of Abe's comment that Cholov Yisroel is a scam?

--The Vitamin D cannot be triefe. It is in and of itself inedible. It is not a food. Further, any taste it may have is not palatable.--

You have no clue what you are talking about. Most reputable hashgachas consider all vitamins food. Some will permit non-kosher vitamin D in the milk because it is a miniscule amount and it is batul b'shishim. Other hashgachas do not rely on this since we are not supposed to rely on this heter "l'katchillah."

What you are probably confusing is that some poskim permit the use of non-kosher, nonchewable vitamins on the theory that it is not "derech achilah." That is clearly not applicable to vitamin mixed into a food product.

I note that in addition to general kashrus concerns, Vitamin D2 may be chametz.

"All vitamin D used in OU certified milks are from kosher approved sources. No exceptions."

That was the impression everyone was under until new information emerged about how lanolin is derived from a sheep's body. Even if Shmarya is correct, there is still the timtum halev issue if one wishes to be stringent. There is a synthetic substitute manufactured by Eli Lilly (whose CEO is an orthodox Jew) so it's not clear why the OU does not get a new source.

--The Vitamin D cannot be triefe. It is in and of itself inedible. It is not a food. Further, any taste it may have is not palatable.--

You have no clue what you are talking about. Most reputable hashgachas consider all vitamins food. Some will permit non-kosher vitamin D in the milk because it is a miniscule amount and it is batul b'shishim. Other hashgachas do not rely on this since we are not supposed to rely on this heter "l'katchillah."

What you are probably confusing is that some poskim permit the use of non-kosher, nonchewable vitamins on the theory that it is not "derech achilah." That is clearly not applicable to vitamin mixed into a food product.

Again, you are incorrect. The Vitamin is both battel and not food. The Vitamin D used in milk is not something anyone would eat as a stand-alone product. It has taste issue, so to speak, and is therefore not food according to halakha.

The hashgahot that treat all oral vitamins as food are being stringent. Any swallowed pill is not derech achila.

The only real issue is chewable pills flavored with sugar and the like. The bracha is made not because of the medicine or vitamin content but because of the FLAVORING.

Regarding:""""You need to talk to your local extension agents rather than a Food Science scientist as the information this individual is giving you is not accurate.""""

Dear yidandhalf:

What part is not accurate??-maybe the government stopped testing -which wouldn't surprise me but penicillin in milk causing great harm STILL is true

There is a basis in halacha to be more stringent with vitamins than with actual medicine.

That "basis" is a minority opinion that vitamins are food because they do not treat any disease.

But vitamins do treat and prevent disease.

But this "basis" would not apply hear because the vitamin in question has no taste.

>...As one who consumes chalav stam, I would suggest that you read Rabbi Feinstein's tshuvot n chalav stam. He permitted it, but he had to jump through some serious hoops in order to do so. So you are announcing your ignorance by referring to cholov yisroel as a scam. There is also another concern that has been raised recently relating to certain procedures conducted on cows that may cause the cows to be considered treifa.
Posted by: Anon | February 05, 2008 at 06:12 PM ....<

Oh! Now I get it. Cholov stam was permitted by the Gadol Hador, except where ignorant authoritarians subvert his leniency to make their bias fit their chumrah-larded mindset. Not to mention the burden of costlier cholov-yisroel products to all those large poor families.
What a bunch of chasid-shoteh!

Isa, this information is inaccurate because it indicates that Penicillin is the only antibiotic administered to be of concern, that is is the favoured antibiotic, that it is introduced into the dairy cow milk supply by means of non dairy cow milk ( thereby it would follow that if non bovine milk was absent there would be no problem ), and that Penicillin is not used for dairy cows.

--That was the impression everyone was under until new information emerged about how lanolin is derived from a sheep's body.--

Some poskim will allow it as it is deemed the equivalent of excretion. Also only one type of vitamin D is manufactured in this manner.

--The Vitamin is both battel and not food.--

Certain kashrut certifications rely on battel. Others, like the OU, claim they don't. Relying on battel is a questionable exception since it is not supposed to be used l'katchillah. As far as it being food or not, none of the kashrut certifiers assume it is non-food but Shmarya thinks so. Hate to break it to you oh great one, but who do you think people will believe.

--But vitamins do treat and prevent disease.--

So does eating pork.

--Oh! Now I get it. Cholov stam was permitted by the Gadol Hador, except where ignorant authoritarians subvert his leniency to make their bias fit their chumrah-larded mindset. Not to mention the burden of costlier cholov-yisroel products to all those large poor families.
What a bunch of chasid-shoteh!--

In that case, I gather the Gadol Hador was a chasid-shoteh too. Since he recommended that people drink cholov yisroel and when asked prohibited a yeshiva from buying cholov stam at a lower price even though it was a financial burden to the yeshivah.

Relying on battel is a questionable exception since
it is not supposed to be used l'katchillah.

A Jew cannot add triefe intentionally lechatchilla. A non-Jew can, especially if it is not specifically for the benefit of a Jew.

--But vitamins do treat and prevent disease.--

So does eating pork.

Yes, in the form of Thyroid pills, which are – NOT FOOD.

Halav Yisrael –

Blather all you want. You clearly have no grasp of the halakha or its basis.

The only thing that the OU cerifies when they put their logo on chalav stam products, is the vitamins. They refuse to go out to the dairy farms and supervise the actual milk. This is in spite of all the reports showing the incidence of DA cows has risen to 20% on some of the larger dairy farms. These DA cows are rendered treife because of the veterinary procedures done to them (this is an indisputable fact, even the OU reluctantly acknowledged that). In order for the milk to be kosher, you need shishim which is 1.67%. There is no way that any of these dairy farms today have that low of a percentage of DA cows. Therefore, chalav stam=chalav treife, no matter what kind of spin and bogus "sefeikos" the OU comes up with. I challenged their "leadership" to go out to one of these farms and investigate the percentage. They will not because they are afraid to find out the truth.

Those cows are not treife anyway. They survive far more than one year.

To call them triefe is a misapplication of the term.

Earth to steve – haredi humrot ≠ halakha.

Earth to Shmarya, the puncture through the stomach renders them treife. Ask any Orthodox rabbi.

Not when done for medical reasons. Go learn.

Here is testimony from a Jewish vet named "Roland":

A DA has nothing to do with beef as you know. I did about 700 DA surgeries before I left that business and was taught by my employers to always go full thickness so there’d be a little leakage for a better adhesion.

It was only later when a new vet joined our group of 12 and was doing flank omentopexies that I started doing them kosher since the farmers wanted standing surgery (it was easier for them. They would leave her in the barn with a note vs being there to roll her).
By that time in NY rolling and toggling was becoming popular. It is fast, easy (some farmers were doing on their own) and cheap and definitely treif. I haven’t drunk American chalov stam (Hacoompanies - as Rav Moshe said) since I realized what this was about.


No O-U D or OK-D for me. Now there’s a good reason to move to Israel where almost all the milk is cholov yisroel and DA surgery free. (as if mitzvas yishuv haaretz 24/7 was not enough incentive)‘Roland’ (Ziv in heb)


>...In that case, I gather the Gadol Hador was a chasid-shoteh too. Since he recommended that people drink cholov yisroel and when asked prohibited a yeshiva from buying cholov stam at a lower price even though it was a financial burden to the yeshivah.

Posted by: Anon | February 06, 2008 at 09:45 AM <

Arrrgh! How could I have been so obtuse!
The Gadol Hador permitted cholov stam except when he didn't permit cholv stam.
In his time, his flip flops would have made him a good candidate for a Democrat candidate for the presidency. Are you sure John Kerry isn't a crypto fundie yid?
You just don't get it. Chumra-besieged orthodoxy has degenerated into a pretentious panorama of self-abnegation, divorced from original halachic intent.
In 2 generations orthodoxy will be unrecognizeable from its present, already indoctrinated plight.
Mayim yisroel anyone? ... Oh, I forgot. You already have created that chumra -- microscopic bug-free water.

One thing is very clear. There are smarter people to be found contributing to this blog than can be easily found elsewhere. HOWEVER, it is also very clear that almost none of them have been around farm animals before they have been packaged into shrinkwrap. THEREFORE, if a significant number of you can make your way to the State of North Carolina, I will personally change your experience by escorting you to FARMS. I will even take you to hog farms. I will take you everywhere there are farm animals so that you will have more to base your carping on than what you have at this point in time.
Didn't know that lanolin came from sheep...JESUS!

Maybe Shmarya can explain then how even Belsky at the OU admits that the cows are treif before making the illogical claim that the milk that comes from them is not.

"Some poskim will allow it as it is deemed the equivalent of excretion."

There WAS an argument among poskim in the past if a lanolin "excretion" is permissable. With new information that emerged recently about the sheep's glands, those issuing the lenient opinion may have to retract.

There is also a question as to whether the vitamins in milk are a "davar hamaamid" which are not nullified. I personally don't understand why they should be, but so I've heard.

>Maybe Shmarya can explain then how even Belsky at the OU admits that the cows are treif before making the illogical claim that the milk that comes from them is not.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | February 06, 2008 at 11:08 AM <

By manipulating the same halachic regimen that decrees that honey from bees is kosher even when bees are treif. Wasn't that easy?
Ooops ! I forgot! You need to suffer a bit more. You havn't been sufficiently yet indentured to sclerotic halacha to maintain your degree of self-abnigation.

--Blather all you want. You clearly have no grasp of the halakha or its basis.--

My grasp of halakha was irrelevant in this instance. I was simply quoting a tshuvah of Rabbi Feinstein.


--To call them triefe is a misapplication of the term.--

--Earth to steve – haredi humrot ≠ halakha.--

Funny, some of the more halachic authorities who hold that milk from such cows are acceptable are haredi (Rabbis Belsky and Heineman), yet Shmarya seems to think that this is a haredi humra. Go figure.

--Not when done for medical reasons. Go learn.--

Please cite one halachic source that distinguishes whether the procedure is done for medical reasons or not. There are a number of theories given as to why this does not cause a cow to be treifa. The most common one (based on a ruling of the Shach which is not universally accepted) is that a whole in the stomach is only a rebuttable presumption of traifa and that in this case it has been rebutted since we know the cows can live for more than 12 months after the procedure is done. But there would be no difference whether this was done for medical purposes or not.

Funny, some of the more halachic authorities who hold that milk from such cows are acceptable are haredi (Rabbis Belsky and Heineman

The heter they give is based on a safek that doesn't exist. The safek is the percentage of DA cows on any given dairy farm. Rabbi Gordimer, the OU administrator said in Belsky's name, that the heter is based on a report he found on the internet from a Dr. Randy Shaver, which states that the incidence of DA cows on dairy farms is 0-21%. Belsky is somech that there are enough of the 0-1.67% farms to mattir all the milk. His heter has nothing to do with the procedure which according to all opinion renders the cow treife. Regarding Belsky and Heinemann's "safeik" status, they use the same logic when it comes to child molesters. Belsky sent a hazmanas beis din for motzi shem ra to a baal habayis who was trying to get Kolko removed from YTT. Meanwhile, there were 40 years of accusations against Kolko dating back to his days at Mir and Camp Agudah, where Belsky was involved in the camp. Heineman recently invited Eisemann to sit up front on the stage after the BJT article came out. They figure if we bury our heads in the sand and close our eyes, we can render all these things "safeik" and the cows as well as the molesters have a chezkas kashrus. This is necessary when there is a hefseid merubah involved for kashrus agencies, yeshivos and their rabbis.

Abe, you are a pathetic ignoramous.

Honey is specifically permitted in the Bible. It is not from some rabbinically derived teaching. It's besides the fact that honey is broken down nectar from flowers and not part of the bee's body. Royal jelly which is part of the bee's body is prohibited.

Go back to laughing at your own dumb jokes.

--His heter has nothing to do with the procedure which according to all opinion renders the cow treife.--

Wrong. Included in their heter is the notion the it is a sfek s'feika. (i) that it is a safeik batel b'shishim (which we pasken l'kula because batel b'shishi is itself a d'rabonon chumra) and (ii) it is a safeik whether the animal is treif and therefore we may be able to rely on the d'oiraysa standard of "rov" instead of the d'rabonon standard of shishim.

--Regarding Belsky and Heinemann's "safeik" status, they use the same logic when it comes to child molesters. Belsky sent a hazmanas beis din for motzi shem ra to a baal habayis who was trying to get Kolko removed from YTT.--

Rabbi Belsky's bet din sent the hazmanah because Margulies or Kolko went and asked that the baal habayim be summoned. Every bet din in the country would do the same and it doesn't reflect any substantive opinions of the bet din on the merits of the case. The baal habayis in question replied with a demand for zabla and Margulies and Kolko never pursued it so case closed. Your logic makes as much sense as blaming a civil court for allowing me to file a lawsuit against you.

Anon, while you seem to have some grasp of poskim, there are tremendous talmidei chochomim, roshei yeshiva, who have spent hours debating the cholov issue with Belsky and do not understand how his conclusion is logical.

Belsky backed down on the safek treife when other leading rabbis including R' Chaim Kohn of KAJ gave long tshuvos on this issue. You can ask the OU's Rabbi Gordimer or Seth Mandel if you don't believe me. The only "safek" they are relying upon is Dr. Randy Shaver's report.

Regarding Kolko, Belsky was aware of the allegations from the late 60's in Mir and the early 70's in Camp Agudah. Instead of having him removed from the camp, which would have saved a countless number of children from being abused, he kept him on and the rest as they say is history. Defending his hazmanas beis din is like defending Lynne Stewart. If you don't know who she is, then look it up.

>Abe, you are a pathetic ignoramous.

Honey is specifically permitted in the Bible. It is not from some rabbinically derived teaching. It's besides the fact that honey is broken down nectar from flowers and not part of the bee's body. Royal jelly which is part of the bee's body is prohibited.

Go back to laughing at your own dumb jokes.

Posted by: Archie Bunker | February 06, 2008 at 12:44 PM <

Archie's halachic logic is infected with the same irrational pathogen that has afflicted fundies from days of yore.
The honey that is specificaly permitted in the Torah is date honey as in "eretz asher zavat chalav u'dvash".
Cow milk is also a product of plant consumption just like the bee's conversion of nectar into honey. The cow ingests the plant and converts its nutrients into milk via a process that changes its molecular structure and converts it into milk. A bee does the same to flower nectar.
Use of similar logic could have made cow milk a non-issue as far as cholov stam is concerned. However the dopey halachic authoritarians refuse to apply a possible leniency so as to ingratiate themselves to a higher level of abstinence where suffering is a virtue.
And the only dumb joke here is your presence on these boards.

Bee honey is also permitted by the Torah, not just date honey.

"Every bet din in the country would do the same and it doesn't reflect any substantive opinions of the bet din"

Not true because Belsky should have recused himself as impartial. "Every" bet din should read every CORRUPT bet din. Belsky is not only guilty of being an enabler but he is good personal friends of both Kolko and convicted child rapist Lewis Brenner who served together with him at Mendel Epstein's mafia-style Igud.

"The baal habayis in question replied with a demand for zabla and Margulies and Kolko never pursued it so case closed."

Not quite. Greenwald later summoned the 3 stooges and they became mesarvei din, just like Kolko and Margulies did twice earlier to Machon LeHoraah and the special bet din of the Agudath Israel led by Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetzky. According to Shulchan Aruch these evil bums are excommunicated and must be ostracized.

Wow. I forgot what the original post was about there.
The only thing i do know anything about is the whole vitamin thing and medicines.
Vitamins are all seen as kosher because they are inedible.
However, the chewable ones have problems because they are made to taste nice and are enjoyed for their taste more than anything else.
This works the same for liquid medicines which are bought over the counter. Any medicine, liquid or not which is prescription only has no problem at all. Unless you are ultra frummy and have a look at the ingredients of your child's anti depressant liquid and notice it has glycerol and so will not give it and will go back to your pharmacy to ask for one which doesn't have glycerol...sadly none exist and so the child i dare say must suffer.
Vitamin D is not edible and is not one of the vitamins that the body excretes. Which means there cannot be that much vitamin D in the milk or it would deem it as un-safe to drink.

As for this whole cow thing. I don't really know much about treif cows producing treif milk as kosher animals are kosher animals and they aren't anyway kosher until they are slaughtered in the correct manner. You cannot go eat a live cow which produces your kosher milk for you. The cow isn't dead when it produces the milk and dairy farms actually create the veal industry. So why would they do something to a cow that will kill it shortly? They need the calfs so they can sell them to slaughter them.

So why would they do something to a cow that will kill it shortly?

To maximize its milk output. Remember, these are dairy farms and they are in the milk business.

--Unless you are ultra frummy and have a look at the ingredients of your child's anti depressant liquid and notice it has glycerol and so will not give it and will go back to your pharmacy to ask for one which doesn't have glycerol...sadly none exist and so the child i dare say must suffer.--

This is not really a problem as most ultra frummies I know don't buy over-the-counter any depressants for their kids to begin with.

that should have read "anti depressants"

But there would be no difference whether this was done for medical purposes or not.

If a surgery is done to save a life, and the normal outcome is a saved life that lives past 12 months, the animal is not treife – just like the Shach you later quote.

So, too, I should add, for any other medical procedure,

The surgery is not done to save the animal's life but to maximize milk production. There is no evidence that the animal lives past twelve months, and besides, that is irrelevant.

--If a surgery is done to save a life, and the normal outcome is a saved life that lives past 12 months, the animal is not treife – just like the Shach you later quote.--

Nice try but that it is not what you said before. Why don't you just fess up and admit it. Here I'll even lay it out for you, just repeat after me. "I, Shmarya, had no clue what I was talking about and was just talking out of my ass."

--There is no evidence that the animal lives past twelve months, and besides, that is irrelevant.--

What is irrelevant? That the animal lives past 12 months? Not according to the Shach. That the surgery is done to save the cow's life? Correct.

The twelve months is a factor only when the animal is a "questionable" treifa. In this case, the procedure which punctures the wall of the stomach through and through, the animal is unquestionably a treifa.

--The twelve months is a factor only when the animal is a "questionable" treifa. In this case, the procedure which punctures the wall of the stomach through and through, the animal is unquestionably a treifa.--

Again, you are not paying attention. That is the view of many but not all poskim. There is also a view, based on a Shach, that a puncture in the stomach only creates a persumption that the cow is treif which can be rebutted. Those poskim that rely on this do so in conjunction with other heterim, including the theory that it is a safek treifa and therefore it is sufficient to rely on rov (not shishim) or that there is a safek shishim as well.

To add to my earlier statement, contrary to what Shmarya would have you believe, there are many reputable poskim (perhaps even a majority) that are of the view that this puncture in the cow's stomach raises a serious kashrut concern. It is not my intent to criticize those that follow that view, I was just trying to explain the basis for those that are mattir.

Read Rabbi Chaim Kohn's long tshuvah on this issue. Also, the rabbonim of EY have all declared that this procedure renders the animal a vaddai treifa. Gordimer and Belsky have already retreated from their original positions of safeik treifa regarding the procedure, and only have Dr. Shaver's report to rely upon. If you read up on the actual procedure and how it's done, you will realize that there is no safeik. The safeikos have been created by these people to avoid sending mashgichim and paying them to actually supervise, which we all thought hashgacha was about.

Steve, do you have the ability to post Rav Kohn's teshuva or send it to UOJ / Rabbi Shain? You wouldn't believe how many people are sitting on the fence until they see something in print contradicting the OU.

http://www.dairyreporter.com/news/ng.asp?n=82586-adulterated-butter-organised-crime-fraud

So much for Shmarya's argument about adulteration of dairy being "rare". And then there's the huge dairy conglomerate Parmalat that was also messing around.

I said adulterated MILK was rare.

Past that, the article is talking about a FRENCH scandal, not an American one.

BTW, for all you rushing to use Chaim Kohn to hurt R. Belsky, Chaim Kohn was the genius who allowed Rubashkin to use a meat hook to rip out the throats of live cattle.

The surgery is not done to save the animal's life but to maximize milk production. There is no evidence that the animal lives past twelve months, and besides, that is irrelevant.

First of all, Steve, milk cows are not rushed to slaughter. No farmer will do a procedure on a milk cow that will kill it in a few months.

Milk cows are milked for many years, not a few months.

The twelve months is a factor only when the animal is a "questionable"
treifa. In this case, the procedure which punctures the wall of the
stomach through and through, the animal is unquestionably a treifa.


That is makhloket poskim, Steve.

If a surgery is done on a cow to repair a problem that hurts the cow but does not make it treife, and the animal lives five years after the surgery, is the animal treife?

You think yes. Others think no. So buy milk from cows that is guaranteed not to have had this surgery – by organic, perhaps, or halav yisrael. But leave the rest of us alone.

--Milk cows are milked for many years, not a few months.--

Once again you don't know what you are talking about, the average herd life of a US Holstein cow is less than 3 lactations. After which they become less productive and are culled and sold for slaughter.

That means the cow is about 5 years old when sent to slaughter.

Therefire cow is milked for a few years, not a few months.

No farmer is going to do something to a cow that wil cause it to die in less than one year – unless you're talking about something done late in the fourth year of the cow's life. That would not make economic sense, however.

the nafka mina between honey and milk is that honey is metabolized OUTSIDE of the bee's body while milk is obviously processed internally

Archie,

Rabbi Kohn's answer to Gordimer was printed in the Hamodia last September. In it he punches enough holes into their arguments that he makes swiss cheese out of them. He goes into a long explanation why DA cows are vaddai triefe and why you can't apply the laws of bittul when you have a bittul l'catchila on an issur d'orysa. I had posted excerpts on Yudel's blog as well as UOJ's.

Shmarya,

Some people actually care about what they eat and drink. They are being deliberately misled by the kashruth agencies. When one sees an OU symbol on a product, that is supposed to mean that a rabbi has actually supervised the production of that product and that he can feel comfortable that he is eating kosher. They should not be relying on smokescreens and heterim based on sefeikos that may or may not exist. If the OU can send mashgichim to Zheziang, China to supervise milk and whey production, why can't they send them to Wisconsin, or PA, or wherever the dairy farms are? By doing so, they not only can insure proper kashruth but they can also prevent cruelty to animals. By telling these dairy companies that they will not allow DA cow milk to be mixed into the regular supply, the farmers will be a lot more careful in how they treat these cows. DA's are caused by mistreatment of the cows, namely their diet and being forced into narrow stalls. When these farmers realize that these cows getting sick will potentially lead to a total loss, rather than spend $200 on the procedure, they will invest in taking better care of them.

nafka mina, 3 lactations,Rav Chaim Kohn's teshuva, etc. etc. ... blah blah blah

Useless, worthless and inane pretentious prattle.
Stand back and look at yourselves in the mirror and see how dopey you all sound trying to justify restrictions on common cow's milk.
Fundie Ortho-Judaism has become a laughing stock, a miasma of compulsive self-abnigation.
Idiots all.

--Fundie Ortho-Judaism has become a laughing stock, a miasma of compulsive self-abnigation.
Idiots all.

Posted by: Abe | February 07, 2008 at 10:09 AM--

Are you orthodox?

--By doing so, they not only can insure proper kashruth but they can also prevent cruelty to animals. By telling these dairy companies that they will not allow DA cow milk to be mixed into the regular supply, the farmers will be a lot more careful in how they treat these cows. DA's are caused by mistreatment of the cows, namely their diet and being forced into narrow stalls.--

Oh boy, a dilemma for Shmarya. Should he come accross as pro kashrut because it fits with his animal rights policies or should he promote animal cruelty so that no one can accuse him of being pro kashrut.

By telling these dairy companies that they will not allow DA cow milk to be mixed into the regular supply, the farmers will be a lot more careful in how they treat these cows. DA's are caused by mistreatment of the cows, namely their diet and being forced into narrow stalls. When these farmers realize that these cows getting sick will potentially lead to a total loss, rather than spend $200 on the procedure, they will invest in taking better care of them.

If the OU and other kashrut agencies would enfore tzaar baalei hayyim halakha, this would be a good thing, the correct thing – but they refuse to do so.

What animal treatment may gain from being machmir on DA cows animal treatment may just as easily lose in another way, as a reaction.

The solution ot animal cruelty associated with kosher food production is to enforce tzaar baalei hayyim halakha.

If the OU and other kashrut agencies would enfore tzaar baalei hayyim halakha, this would be a good thing, the correct thing

Agreed.


What animal treatment may gain from being machmir on DA cows animal treatment may just as easily lose in another way, as a reaction

I don't think there will be any negative reaction. It think it will be a win-win situation for all involved. Only the agencies would have to spend more on mashgichim and perhaps let them earn their fees. Also, the chalav yisrael companies might have to become more competitive, (or they will become irrelevant) which is a good thing for the kosher consumer. Right now, all they are supervising is the vitamins. I think the milk needs more supervision than the vitamins.

People primarily buy halav yisrael as a weird pseudo-kabbalistic humra.

Nothing the OU does with regard to halav stam will change that.

As for the reaction, you're wrong. There are always new an better ways to deal with production problems. Farmers will find another way around the issue.

The point is, enforcing humrot for ultiror motives is not good halakhic policy.

If they ever agree to supervise the milk production, doesn't that in effect make it chalav yisrael?

You're not asking them to supervise milk production, steve – you're asking them to supervise which cows can be milked.

So, you see, steve, if a farm has kosher and "treife" cows mixed together, what you are asking for is a full time, 24/7 mashgiach.

Halav yisrael is not supervised that way. All kalkha asks for is a mashgiach who is somewhere on the premises during part of the milking.

In practice, the mashgiach shows up for a few minutes once or sometimes twice during an many hours long milking session. Therest of the time, he's at other farms.

So how can so-called halav yisrael claim it has no DA milk?

Because halav yisrael milk comes from very tiny milk producers who see a niche market and exploit it.

But production of milk for the ENTIRE Jewish community would be impossible using these small producers. Large producers cannot and will not rely on one market segment.

So, if Jews are to have access to dairy products at reasonable prices (not $8 per gallon of milk or $16 per pound of processed cheese), something has to be done.

Your 'solution' will make dairy products prohibitively expensive and will create an extreme burden for Jewish families.

But,of course, you factored all this in to your 'halakhic' decision, now didn't you?

Nonsense. All that will happen is that the OU will earn the fees that they are already charging the dairy companies for their fake supervision. The chalav yisrael companies are currently in cahoots with each other with their price fixing. This will benefit ALL kosher consumers in the long run by breaking their cartel and by giving them "real" kosher milk instead of treife, or if you prefer, "safeik" milk.

No. Steve, you don't understand it at all.

--People primarily buy halav yisrael as a weird pseudo-kabbalistic humra.--

Know any reputable orthodox rabbis that agree with this statement? Please cite a source. It can't be Rabbi Feinstein this time.

--So, if Jews are to have access to dairy products at reasonable prices (not $8 per gallon of milk or $16 per pound of processed cheese), something has to be done.--

Ahh now I see what is motivating you. It is that you are concerned that you won't be able to afford kosher dairy products. Why don't you just get a job instead of schnorring for donations and you won't have this problem. You may even save enough to be able to splurge on a juicy Rubashkin steak once every couple of months.

--The point is, enforcing humrot for ultiror motives is not good halakhic policy.--

There is an opinion in halacha (a minority view, but nonetheless an opinion) that there is no obligation to minimize an animals pain as part of the slaughter. Since it is your policy that we should always adopt the most lenient view available it would seem that the whole tzar baalei chaim thing relating to slaughter is just a chumrah. And since you have an objection to any chumrot it would seem that you should be promoting Rubashkin meat.

The comment by anon shows again that he does not understand both the issue at hand and halakha in general.

1. Hasidim keep halav yisrael because of kabbalistic reasons. Halav stam supposedly "stops up" the heart.

The Frirdiker Lubavitch Rebbe even tried to say this was a halakha in the Shulkhan Arukh. It turns out that halakha was referring to a gentile nursemaid.

2. Economic realities are taken into halakhaic decision-making all the time. Why? Because they are SUPPOSED to be taken into consideration. Even Rav Moshe's teshuvot on halav yisrael do this quite openly.

3. The opinion that says we can disregard an animal's suffering if that suffering benefits man is meant to be applied when there is no other way to achieve the goal. It is not meant as a carte blanche to abuse animals.

The idea that one can simply ignore tzaar baalei hayyim is wrong, even according to that minority view.

OK
What are DA cows?
What is this puncture thing that is done to cows?
I would like a technical explanation with no 'axe to grind' slant.
Isa

Just to get back to the original subject --- we now know why Agriprocessors really raised their prices. They need the money to pay an army of lawyers, pay Moshe and son's fines, and pay for the clean-up of the textile mill site.
Who's really paying for all this law breaking...any Jew who eats Agriprocessor meat and chicken!!!

--Hasidim keep halav yisrael because of kabbalistic reasons. Halav stam supposedly "stops up" the heart.--

Wrong. Timtum halev is attributed to all treifa. That does not mean that chasidim don't eat treifa because of kabbalistic reasons.

You are dense.

The Frierdiker Rebbe specifically said halav akum (no matter who paskened what) "stops up the heart" and misquoted the Shulkhan Arukh in the process.

Timtum halev with treife is based on a KABBALISTIC reason.

What I wrote is correct.

Isa, distended abomasum. You can google it and find all the information. All rumimants are susceptable to it if their diet is unbalanced and it is very dangerous. If you want to see farm procedure done in the old days for it you can rent the old film "Far From The Madding Crowd" ( Julie Christie and Alan Bates and Bates punctures the sheep. ) This is the best way to see first hand what da is ). It looks bad, but it is quick and the alternative is prolonged suffering and death. If ruminants are given proper diet and protected from dangerous feeds or browse ( corn for example which ferments rapidly within the rumen ) they will be free of this but in factory farming this is not always the case.

" and misquoted the Shulkhan Arukh in the process. "

i am curious, which shulchan arukh did rebbe rayatz misquote? also, since they have the shulchan arukh of the alter rebbe, what is chabad's attitude towards that of R' Yosef Caro? another thing is the shulchan arukh harav patterned on all 4 parts of the 4 turim or it covers only the orach chayim?

Karo's.

Except for the brief period of learning for "Chabad smicha," most Chabadniks will never pick up Karo's Shulkhan Arukh, not because they are opposed to it – they simply learn the Alter Rebbe's abridged version.

Yorek Dayah, Hoshen Mishpat, Orach Hayyim. I think Even HaEzer was lost in a fire…

--What I wrote is correct.--

Wrong. It would at best be correct with respect to chabad, not with respect to hasidim generally.

Shmarya,

"most Chabadniks will never pick up Karo's Shulkhan Arukh"

You are, of course, a liar in this regard.

Furthermore, as usual, your comments show a rudimentary and corrupt knowledge of halacha which is extremely dangerous since you quote those erroneous views with such authority.

If you are so expert in these matters, cite a source for your views, otherwise they are no better/worse than that of others.

Regards,

Avi

I was a Chabadnik for twenty years. I worked for Chabad. I davened in Chabad synagogues all over the world.

My home synagogue in MN did not have a complete copy of Yosef Karo Shulkhan Arukh, yet it had hundreds of volumes of Chabad hasidut. (It did not have a complete Babylonian Talmud, either.)

The same was true for the Chabad House.

But don't think people did not learn. They did learn – primarily Chabad hasidut along with Humash w/Rashi and the Alter Rebbe's Shulkhan Arukh.

I saw this same pattern everywhere I went, except for some of the old Yerushalmis and, of course, Steinsaltz.

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