Shas MK: Gays A "Plague" Like "Bird Flu"

A Shas MK wants to ban gay pride parades in Jerusalem. More than that, he wants to lock up gays and lesbians.…  

MK Nissim Zeev wants to confine gays and lesbians to treatment centers "along with drug addicts and alcoholics." He also thinks homosexuality is catching: 

Zeev went as far as comparing the gay movement to a "plague that may destroy Jewish Israel", adding that this "plague" should be dealt with "just as the Health Ministry is dealing with bird flu."

How does this religious MK want to go about banning gay parades and demonstrations? This way:

The proposed amendment to Basic Law: Jerusalem, would enable the Jerusalem Municipal Council to ban gay parades and rallies for considerations of disturbance to public order, offending the public's sensitivities or for religious considerations.

You'll recognize the last two reasons on that list, especially if you live in Tehran or Saudi Arabia.

Israel needs complete separation between synagogue and state. The best way to get this is to support political parties, like Meretz, who want this. If you find that not palatable, try to get right wing parties like Likud to adopt this as a platform item.

Comments

[AaronfromWG]

I disagree with the MK but I also disagree with your separation of synagogue and state statement. Israel was, is, will be, and should be a Jewish State both religiously and culturally. If Jews want to live in a nation which does not endorse religion then there are many dozens to choose from. If Israel no longer identifies itself as a Jewish State then it might as well ask for acceptance as 51st state of the union or let anybody move there(Islamists, Neo Nazis).

[Haforsko]

Becoming the 51st state of the Union may not be a bad idea.

[mordecai]

((offending the public's sensitivities or for religious considerations))

Au contraire! It is not the "public's sensitivities" but the religious fanatic's sensitivities. Why don't we lock up religious fanatics if they wish to lock up somebody?

[steve]

this just shows that you are a fraud supporting gays completely against the torah i always suspected you were just a bitter faget who could never make it therefore you spend you bitter days destroying good people althou 25% of the time you are spot on but you will burn in hell for the good people you have besmirched

[steve]

this just shows that you are a fraud supporting gays completely against the torah i always suspected you were just a bitter faget who could never make it therefore you spend you bitter days destroying good people althou 25% of the time you are spot on but you will burn in hell for the good people you have besmirched

[Dave]

Male homosexuality is completely against the Torah. But I think Nissim Zeev is wasting his time- he should just ignore the gays. Surely he should promote Torah study and promote speeding up the conversions of the non-Jewish Russian immigrants and helping the Falash Mura and the B'nei Menashe to make aliyah.
How about the Israeli government funding internet downloads of the original Arabic text of various books by Rambam, Saadya Gaon, Ibn Ezra- I think that would help promote peace with the Arabs.
There I've given Nissim Zeev lots of work to do, more useful work.

[Dave]

Male homosexuality is completely against the Torah. But I think Nissim Zeev is wasting his time- he should just ignore the gays. Surely he should promote Torah study and promote speeding up the conversions of the non-Jewish Russian immigrants and helping the Falash Mura and the B'nei Menashe to make aliyah.
How about the Israeli government funding internet downloads of the original Arabic text of various books by Rambam, Saadya Gaon, Ibn Ezra- I think that would help promote peace with the Arabs.
There I've given Nissim Zeev lots of work to do, more useful work.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Male anal sex is against the torah. The orientation per se is not mentioned. I don't like gay parades because I dislike exhibitionist behavior on anybody's part (gay or straight). It is not appropriate for Jerusalem, certainly. (But no reason to overreact, either). Other than that, it's live and let live, according to my biased opinion.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

i am all with reb yochanan's post.
nissim zeev is bad news

[Jewish State]

"A plague like bird flu" ... humm, some of us think Shas is the Black Plague. Israel was founded as a Jewish State, we just don't need someone telling us how to be Jewish.
From the Zionists who brought you the Jewish State.

[Archie Bunker]

It must meaning nothing to Shmarya that the flood in the days of Noah was caused by promoting acceptance of homosexual behavior. Oh I forgot, we can't cite early sources that he contends are fairy tales (pun intended).

Liberalism is another disease. These militant gays want their abominations in your face but Shmarya instead attacks those who are uncomfortable with it.

Or maybe there's another agenda here? Will SHmarya join Steve Greenberg in "coming out of the closet"?

[Barry]

John Stuart Mills argued that consensual polygamy as practiced by Mormons should be legally tolerated despite the harm it does to women as these relationships are entered into voluntarily and by mutual consent and do not directly harm others. This 'no harm to others' argument ('privacy') seems to support toleration of homosexuals to engage in sodomy and is the 'liberal' position taken by the US Supreme Court in striking out anti-contraception and sodomy laws enacted by some states.
It has been pointed out that this attempt to divorce private morality from public morality is artificial. Liberals need to explain why laws against incest, bigamy and obscenity are any less legitimate then those against sodomy. The suppression of vice is as much the law's business as the suppression of subversive activities. It is no more possible to define a sphere of private morality than it is to define one of private subversive activity. All criminal law is morals legislation; and all morals legislation is ultimately rooted in popular feelings of intolerance indignation and disgust for which no rational foundation can be given. Voluntary acts between consenting adults may harm society by weakening popular moral code that prevents society from slipping into chaos (eg Euthanasia) . It is impossible to establish in advance by appeal to reason or principle, which types of immoral acts ought to be immune from legislation. It is enough for reasonable people in a given society to regard legislation as reasonable.
Israel is not a Torah state. Its people do not wish to see fornication, adultery or homosexuality criminalized anymore than desecration of the Sabbath or married women being forbidden from being bareheaded. Incest, sexual activity in public, public nudity, prostitution are matters which it does wish criminalized. Arabs are not offended by bigamy while secular Israelis are.
Of course the Torah declares homosexuality as well as adultery and idol worship to be a capital offense. Therefore MK Ziv's views are to be expected. His views however do not reflect Israeli's society which tolerates sodomy in private between consenting adults as it tolerates adultery and heresy. It does not tolerate public displays of indecent sexuality. It has its own standards of what is indecent display which is not that of a Shas Rabbi. So a march by homosexuals dressed within the bounds of general acceptable decency must be tolerated as a march by Hassidim dressed within the bounds of acceptable decency. By marching in Jerusalem, homosexuals are lehachesdic 'giving the finger' to orthodox Judaism by showing their presence in number on orthodox 'territory' but that is their right if they do so within the bounds of public decency.

[Yos]

I thought the deluge was caused by masturbation. Or intermarriage. Or one of the million other catch all sins attributed to it.

[R]

I don't agree with what this shas persn says about gays. He obviously doesn't know anything about it. However, i do not think gay parades should be held in jerusalem. What is wrong with Tel Aviv? Oh yeah, i forgot. Tel Aviv isn't so religious.
I want to see a straight parade. How come we don't have them? Gays have more rights than straight people/couples. So i think straight people ought to take a stand and make a straight parade in areas which have gay bars.
I somehow don't think you would see the gays in that area seeing it as peaceful and right and would make a big to do over it.

[Barry]

AB. Was not homosexuality Ham's sin rather than his father's generations sin?

[Fleishike Kishke]

"I want to see a straight parade."

Of course a frum "straight parade" would look like two gay parades.

All men, followed by all women.

[Archie Bunker]

Yos,

It was promoting acceptance of various sins, primarily of a sexual nature and theft. Their fate was not sealed because of the sex crimes themselves but because they tried to push for open acceptance. One of the specifics given was the introduction of gay "marriage" contracts. The fate of Sodom was sealed for the same reasons.

Barry,

There is an argument whether Ham raped or castrated his father. A gay homosexual act between father & son is worse than between strangers.

[Anon]

I don't think gay pride parades should be held in Jerusalem. Respecting each others views should apply to both sides. However, MK Nissim Zeev though his actions has just given his cause a big set back. I can't see many MKs joining him in this effort in light of those statements. At best, Zeev is guilty of extreme stupidity.

[yidandahalf]

No matter how enlightened or liberal an individual may consider him or herself; there will come a time in that person's life sooner or later ( probably later ) when the realization that a gay pride parade in Jerusalem is absurd and vulgar will make itself felt. That rational people even can entertain such notions as viable defies belief.
But even so, WTF are these homosexuals proud about and what gives them the idea anyone cares if they are proud or not? I think that they would have a hard time with PR under anyother name. It's as simple as that. 'KY EXTRAVAGANZA' would not do the trick.

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201523794958&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

What a load of rubbish.

[Shmorgel (Borgel)]

Dave suggested-
"How about the Israeli government funding internet downloads of the original Arabic text of various books by Rambam, Saadya Gaon, Ibn Ezra- I think that would help promote peace with the Arabs."

Cute, but I think major theological works by Shi'a and Sunni theologians are widely available in Arabic in print and the Internet and the fact that it's all in Arabic hasn't exactly promoted intra-Muslim amity and fraternity, so why would their seeing that some of our thinkers wrote their greatest works in Arabic foster get the Arabs all warm and fuzzy to the Jews? Did the Nazis feel that way to us because Shimshon Raphael Hirsch wrote "Horeb" and the "19 Letters of Ben Uzziel" in a very literary and polished German? (I agree that Shas should focus on other things and the MK's comments are despicable--though--just being argumentative.)

[Ari]

I don't think "pride" parades are a good idea to begin with, let alone in Jerusalem.

But Archie Bunker, who in the hell are YOU to determine whose fate is sealed? If you think you are in the least bit qualified to make that kind of statement, you are going to have one hell of a surprise when your time comes...and judging from the way you speak I hope that's not too far off.

[Archie Bunker]

Ari,

You're such a pathetic bore. So now the Shmarya groupies are going to dispute the concept that Sodomites were destroyed because of their evil ways?

And I hope people are more to kind in their desires for your fate than the way you viciously wish harm on others.

[Ari]

And you're every bit as bad as Islamic fundamentalists. And you will meet the same ends, G-d willing.

[A reader]

Shmarya shows his true colors yet again calling on you to support the anti-Jewish antisemitic pro-Islamist meeretz party. Honestly Shmarya, who pays you to say this stuff? Who are your handlers?

I am personally of the opinion that Shas is corrupt and are traitors, but that means I would look for a legitimate party to support, not one that is far worse.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya and his ilk like Ari can make any person with faith want to vomit. This latest loser accuses me of being intolerant then starts cursing me with destruction, thinking he's some kind of ancient Roman soothsayer. Inshallah yourself. You may not know that curses tend to have a boomerang effect.

http://radaronline.com/features/2008/01/finding_a_jewish_husband_shiksas_david_abitbol_jewlicious_01.php

Now Shmarya's buddy David Kelsey is helping a non-Jewish woman fulfil her desire of finding a Jewish husband. Follow the links to page 2 or 3.

If you morally bankrupt guys had your way, there wouldn't be a Judaism.

[Archie Bunker]

http://radaronline.com/features/2008/01/finding_a_jewish_husband_shiksas_david_abitbol_jewlicious_01.php

Link didn't post in full the first time. Maybe this will work

[Archie Bunker]

http://radaronline.com/features/2008/01/finding_a_jewish_husband_shiksas_david_abitbol_jewlicious_01.php

Or add "abitbol_jewlicious_01.php" after david_

[Ari]

Archie,

I have tremendous faith, and YOU are the one that induces vomiting. Your "holy righteousness" is sickening.

Though you are correct on one thing, I was hasty in hoping for your destruction; so I do apologize for that.

However, you still make me ill.

[rebitzman]

Uh Archie: *So now the Shmarya groupies are going to dispute the concept that Sodomites were destroyed because of their evil ways?*

Don't see anything to so indicate - but would challenge you to show that their "evil ways" included homosexuality, because that line appears to be missing in my copy of the Tanakh.

[Archie Bunker]

Ha! Rebitzman really makes me laugh. Even in the secular world, where the heck do you think the word sodomy comes from if not Sodom?

[Archie Bunker]

For the record, when it says the entire town tried to break in to Lot's house to "know" his guests, that is referring to homosexual rape.

[Shmarya]

For the record, when it says the entire town tried to break in to Lot's house to "know" his guests, that is referring to homosexual rape.

The operative word here is rape.

he wants to lock up gays and lesbians.…

I'm not gay, but in a show of solidarity with our LGBT brothers and sisters, I'll volunteer to have myself locked up with the lesbians! (Provided that they're the hot kind of lesbians, of course.) ;)

just a bitter faget

Does anyone here know what a "faget" is?

I'm guessing it's something French, and something which can be bitter, but beyond that, I can't come up with anything.

Of course a frum "straight parade" would look like two gay parades.

All men, followed by all women.

Oh wow, that's a GOOD ONE!!!!! HA!

So very true . . .

[Not a Lot]

For the record, when it says the entire town tried to break in to Lot's house to "know" his guests, that is referring to homosexual rape.

Yes, and what was Lot's response?

Didn't he ask the crowd to leave the visitors alone, and in their stead he would give them his two virgin daughters to do with as they pleased? Doesn't that sound an awful lot like Lot was offering up his daughters to be gang raped? To get an idea of what the crowd might have done to Lot's daughters, read horrible story of what happened to the Levite's concubine who found herself in that same situation in Judges 19 22-28.

So, Lot wanted to prevent one set of rapes from occurring by offering the opportunity for a second set of rapes in its stead?

And the Sodomites were the only ones punished? Seems to me that if we are applying the "they were going to rape them" standard (and right one would be to do so), then Lot should have been left behind for the fire and brimstone as well.

I've always been surprised that the Torah doesn't record any rebuke of Lot by the angelic visitors for offering up his daughters to be raped.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Not: It always bothered me, as well. It shows that Lot was only relatively righteous, not truly righteous.

Hospitality was a cardinal virtue of the ancient world. Avraham Aveinu excelled in it. The breakdown of hospitality, by a cruel host or abusive guest, was considered shameful. See The Odyssey: Odysseus encounters many bad hosts, most notably Polypehmus the Cyclops. At home in Ithaca (the Greek island, not NY), abusive suitors take over his house. In both cases, the perps are severly punished. (I am not equating the Torah with the Odyssey, only offering an analogy, lehavdil).

[R]

I also thought it was weird that Lot got saved. Mainly what was learned from that story was that when you live in a place like that it tends to rub off on you. No matter what sort of person you were at the begining.
G-d saved Lot because Avraham pleaded with Him to do so. However, He did not save Lot's wife and i assume it was because she was worse than Lot. But then you have that problem with Lot and his daughters. They thought the world was destroyed and they were the only ones left, but Lot probably knew the real truth and yet didn't tell them not to panic. Instead, he willingly allowed himself to have sex with his daughters and so Moav as a nation was born.

I wonder why G-d doesn't destroy other nations that are homosexuals in such a way. The Greeks lasted a while and yes they eventually were conquered and ended, the whole Greek nation wasn't erradicated even though they were very much into homosexuality. The Romans enjoyed their orgies and today we have everything bundled into one.

R: The Greeks and Romans converted to Christianity, and acquired thereby negative feelings towards Homosexuality. The Roman Western Empire, and the Greco-Roman Byzantine Empire were both strongly Christian when they fell (a fact that does not escape Gibbons).

You write: "I wonder why G-d doesn't destroy other nations that are homosexuals in such a way."

You are apparently in agreement with the Westboro Baptist Church, that demonstrates at soldiers' funerals. They gloat over the deaths, which they see as divine retribution over American toleration of Gays.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The last post was by me. Sorry.

[King David]

Was not King David a homosexual

there are strong hints of a homosexual affair in the stories surrounding the friendship of Jonathan and David,

King David’s lament on the death of his friend Jonathan, remarking that Jonathan’s love for him was “dearer than that of any woman’s”.

David was also a womanizer, (remember Bat Sheva and Michal, the daughter of Saul), so we can discount that he was exclusively homosexual, David was gay…..could he have been, like the Greek and Spartan soldiers, bisexual?

Homosexuality in the Greek and Roman world while tolerated it was never the norm or condoned, Emperor Augustus made specific laws strengthening the family unit, and forbidding these practices.

Keep in mind that laws are made to control what has become all to common, (the more severe the condemnation the more widespread the practice) that is why some argue with valid points of reference that homosexuality was more prevalent in jewish communities than others, as shocking as that sounds and feels, it seems to have a solid foundation.

[Friar Yid]

By marching in Jerusalem, homosexuals are lehachesdic 'giving the finger' to orthodox Judaism by showing their presence in number on orthodox 'territory' but that is their right if they do so within the bounds of public decency.

The exact point is that it isn't ORTHODOX territory. The State of Israel has maintained since its founding that it was the rightful home of ALL Jews, not such ones wearing kippot and sheitels. The Orthodox do not have the right to change this or declare certain portions of the country exclusively theirs. Jerusalem should belong to everyone. I agree that community standards may vary depending on specific areas, but I very adamantly believe that a tasteful and appropriate parade about gay identity is legitimate. Jerusalem belongs just as much to gay Jews as any other kind, and the rainbow flag is no more inherently offensive than that of Degel HaTorah (maybe less, actually).

[Paul Freedman]

Not a Lot--the "concubines" tale is a horrific "black-comic" condemnation of ethical decay--and it's strictly hetero--I think this "reader's repetition" is Torah's way, if you will, of teaching us that the story of Sodom is not a "kill the gays" moral

[Jimmy23]

Yes, put the Jews into camps to re-educate them. It worked great last time.....

This guy is a twit. I feel sorry for people like him.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

-Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Not a Lot]

Not a Lot--the "concubines" tale is a horrific "black-comic" condemnation of ethical decay--and it's strictly hetero

I put the cocubine's tale in there just as a reference as to what would likely follow Lot's suggestion, were it taken.

However, it isn't entirely hetero. While the rape was a heterosexual rape, the men of Gibeah made the same homosexual demand "bring out the man who entered your house, so that we may know him." So, the Sodomites likely would not have left Lot's daughters alone had he actually put them outside.

I've never heard of the cocubine's tale as being a "black comedy." Please explain this. I've always found it horrifying, with no comic elements in it. It's not "Heathers," for example.

-I think this "reader's repetition" is Torah's way, if you will, of teaching us that the story of Sodom is not a "kill the gays" moral

I am not sure if I follow you here. I think I get what you mean, but please explain this a little more fully.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Not: Men, in prisoner situations (including POW), rape other men. The rapists are usually heteros, who do not normally seek out same sex partners. It's a form of humiliation/domination. It's not that the Sodom people wanted to buy the malachim dinner and date them. They wanted to subjugate them.