Satmar and the Holocaust

Tibi writes:

My father is from the region of Satmar. He is now 82 and still remembers R' Yoilish bribing the regional governor to ban B'nei Akivah.

Many of the local Rebbeim went with their people to the camps and comforted them, supported them, until the very end.

[Rabbi Yoel] Teitelbaum [the Satmar Rebbe] was spirited off to Switzerland by the very Zionists he so despised.

After 46 years of, unfortunately, having dealings with the Satmar community my general impression has been that they are often ignorant, hateful and despise other Jews tremendously. Those that are more tolerant and decent among them are often forced to keep their views closeted so they don't suffer derision and loss of livelihood.

The one thing they sure can't be compared to is: Amish.

Comments

[Barry]

One can be a bit foolish by stating that the Gedolim would have seen what was coming by Nevua and protect Ehrliche Yidden through Daas Torah and could have stopped Hitler through curses but because of Hester Pannim they were blinded since one cannot compare the forsight of a Torah Gadol with a British or French Prime Minister). One can be very foolish like the Neturei Karta and imply that even after we know what happened to the Jews of Europe, it would be better that those Jews who escaped Europe to Palestine to have suffered their fate because those Zionists caused the Holocaust with some help from Hitler (who I suspect in a few years time they will claim was revealed by Daas Torah to have been Bnei Akiva Madrich when young!).

[SJ]

Wasserman was a false prophet in the fullest sense of the term.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Why did the Jews of Britain survive? Because of 20 miles of salt water. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

Barry, I enjoy your eloquent posts. The channel certainly helped, but so did the Royal Air Force and Sir Winston Churchill.

[saul]

ELIEZER ( LOUIS ) Kestenbaum was also arrested with the rabbi of spinka as being a part of the money laundering team. Kestenbaum is the president of the ODA organization in Williamsburg brooklyn NY

[Archie Bunker]

"Not sure I understand why the Amalekites had to "sneak in" to Israel."

They have a sneaky nature. They also disguised themselves as Canaanites in one epsiode in Chumash. This is where the Purim custom stems from to wear costumes.

"Now you're quoting me a Rambam who calls them tinokos shenishbu. Are you right, or is the Rambam right?"

There is no contradiction and I explained the difference earlier.

[Archie Bunker]

"Don't some authorities say that Amalek no longer exists as an ethnic group, thanks to invaders such Sennechareb the king of Assyria (Ashur) and others?"

That is as far as the commandment to root them out and destroy them as a group. Everyone agrees however that individuals can display the tell tale signs and that at least a high percentage of the German nation comes from them.

As far as Jews with Amalekite lineage, many great rabbis in history say they do exist. What's ironic is that Rabbi Wasserman who is under attack here says they do not physically come from Amalek, seemingly disputing what his teacher the Chofetz Chaim said.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Everyone agrees however that individuals can display the tell tale signs and that at least a high percentage of the German nation comes from them.

Interesting comment, Archie. Who is everybody? Sources? I am not being sarcastic- I want to keep an open mind about this.

[Archie Bunker]

Sources for German Amalekite origins:

Vilna Gaon
Rabbi Yaakov Emden
Rabbi Nosson Adler (teacher of the Chasam Sofer)
Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld
Bluzover Rebbe

There is a reference in the Talmud Bavli Megillah, while not mentioning Amalek specifically, says that the patriarch Jacob prayed that "Germamia" not destroy the Jews. Medieval commentators mention that the original text was Germania and was corrupted by printers.

[Archie Bunker]

There is also a contemporary work titled "Reishis Goyim" showing how many Nazi & German traits mirror those of Amalek.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya's spin:

1. Rabbis say with certainty do or do not do something. (In this case, do NOT move to Israel or the West.)

2. Large numbers of Jews die or suffer or lose money or become Christians, etc. as a result.

3. Rabbis explain their failure by blaming that failure on "blindness" caused by God, for reasons known only to God.

4. Therefore, the failure was NOT the rabbis' fault.

5. That means that people still must follow the commands of these rabbis.

Sick, circular, haredi reasoning.

The facts:

I do not know of any rabbi who discouraged going to Israel.

The Bible says both that one must listen to rabbis AND that there are times of Hester panim. There is no contradiction if an Earthly rabbi cannot see clearly during a chaotic period mandated by G-d.

Even among the greatest rabbis, there were only seven people in history who never committed a sin. G-d understands that rabbis are mortal and prone to error but nevertheless commands that they be followed.

(As far as today, there are much greater rabbis that those who (dis)grace the dais of Agudah functions. They disagree with the Agudah's behavior and are ignored when they don't fit the Agudah's agenda.)

[Shmarya]

I do not know of any rabbi who discouraged going to Israel.

Your ignorance does not make the problem go away.

Very many haredi rabbis told congregants NOT to go to Israel. Among those rabbis, Yoel Titelbaum.

Try reading Eim HaBanim Semeicha for a blow by blow eyewitness account.

The Bible says both that one must listen to rabbis AND that there are times of Hester panim. There is no contradiction if an Earthly rabbi cannot see clearly during a chaotic period mandated by G-d.

Where exactly does the Torah say there will be times of "hester panim"?

And where does it say you must listen to foolish leaders?

[Archie Bunker]

Specifically "astir es panai" and the message of the larger Tochacha is the source in the Torah.

"Lo sasur" is the commandment to listen to rabbis.

You are correct that Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum was a minority opinion against going to Israel ( I forgot about that) but he had no problem with anyone escaping to a neutral haven like Switzerland or Sweden.

[Shmarya]

Specifically "astir es panai" and the message of the larger Tochacha is the source in the Torah.

"Lo sasur" is the commandment to listen to rabbis.

In other words, rabbinic spin on the Torah, not the Torah itself.

You are correct that Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum was a minority opinion against going to Israel ( I forgot about that) but he had no problem with anyone escaping to a neutral haven like Switzerland or Sweden.

Yoel Teitelbaum's opinion was the MAJORITY rabbinic opinion in Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania. And his "permission" to escape to Swededn or Switzerland was only given after the Germans invaded these countries, not during the time that Jews could have escaped before, when the Nazis were ravaging Poland, etc.

[Archie Bunker]

"rabbinic spin on the Torah, not the Torah itself."

In other words, Shmarya denies the validity of the Oral Torah like all good Tzedukim, (bad) Samaritans and other heretics do.

What's next? The X-tians say the New Testament overrides Chumash too, ya know.

In any case, Shmarya proves time & again that he has no connection to orthodoxy whatsoever. It's high time he admitted it.

[Archie Bunker]

As far as the rabbis in the "Underlands", let's see. You have the entire Nitra yeshiva that escaped to Morocco. Many more were prevented from escaping by secular Zionists working in cahoots with the Nazis. But alas, that's where Shmarya's attempted rehabilitation of Kasztner comes in so he can blame the rabbis instead. There was really no way of knowing what would happen in Hungary anyway until the Nazis invaded very late in the war in 1944. The Zionists then persuaded Jews to get on trains to certain death and disuaded Romanian Jews from escaping to Turkey.

Read "The Unheeded Cry" by Rabbi Michel Ber Weissmandel for many facts that Shmarya selectively omits.

[Shmarya]

"rabbinic spin on the Torah, not the Torah itself."

In other words, Shmarya denies the validity of the Oral Torah like all good Tzedukim, (bad) Samaritans and other heretics do.

No. You said it was in the Torah. I asked you where in the Torah? Your answer again proves you cannot separate between d'orita and d'rabbanan.

[Shmarya]

Read "The Unheeded Cry" by Rabbi Michel Ber Weissmandel for many facts that Shmarya selectively omits.

The Unheeded Cry is by my friend Avraham Fuchs. The Hebrew version, which predated the ArtScroll English language translation by a couple of years, was published while he taught at Minneapolis Talmud Torah. Hi sson was a friend of mine. I purchased seval copies of the Hebrew book and gave an English language copy to Senator Rudy Boschwitz some years ago.

What does all this prove?

Archie Bunker is again incorrect.

[Shmarya]

I should add the Unheeded Cry does not prove in any way that Zionists stopped people from escaping.

The closest thing to that is a refusal to illegally transfer money to a country at war with the Allies, because of what that transfer would have meant if discovered.

There is also a fatalistic sentiment that the Jews dying in Europe will cause the State of Israel to be born.

Anti-Zionists make much of this without ever pointing out that anti-Zionist heroes like Rabbi Elchannan Wasserman said almost the same thing, viewing the death of Euopean Jews as a korbon, a sacrifice, that will cause God to spare the Jews of America.

[SJ]

Isn't human sacrafice forbidden in Leviticus? O.o

[Archie Bunker]

I also suggest reading Perfidy by Ben Hecht and the pamphlet published by Malkiel Grunwald if it is still accessable on how Kasztner personally sent Jews to death in Aushwicz.

Considering the turn that Shmarya has taken in recent years, I don't think he would give anyone a copy of the other book today because it still contains information damaging to his cause.

Where does it state that Rabbi Wasserman viewed European Jews as a sacrifice for America?

This concept is not out of the question but it can only be used in retrospect I believe or with his own life and not by anyone trying to play G-d with other people's lives. Rabbi Luzatto (Ramchal) writes that during the Chmielnicki massacres of 1648, there was an equation of the 3 greatest rabbis corresponding to one third each of the Jewish population. Because the Shach for instance survived in Lithuania, one third of Jewry in Europe perished. Shmarya will probably mock the discussion that Rabbi Samson Ostropoli had with the Satan. Rabbi Samson was informed of the Heavenly decree condemning the Jews to death (Rabbi Nosson Nata Hanover writes of the reasons why) and tried to cut a deal. Rabbi Samson did not fall for the Satan's deceptive tricks and sacrificed himself to save a third of Jewry.

[Archie Bunker]

"I asked you where in the Torah?"

Astir es panai is explicit in the Torah

"Your answer again 'proves' you cannot separate between d'orita and d'rabbanan."

As for the rest, Shmarya certainly proves he is a non-believer who denies the Oral Torah any validity in explaining the Written Torah.

[Shmarya]

Where does it state that Rabbi Wasserman viewed European Jews as a
sacrifice for America?

His own words, printed in a little booklet with his name as the author, circulated widely in haredi yeshivot in the early 1980s.

It was an English translation of what he said to the men he was learning with when the Nazis came. Survivors from that group printed it.

As for the rest, Shmarya certainly proves he is a non-believer who denies the Oral Torah any validity in explaining the Written Torah.

You claimed something was "in the Torah."

I asked you where. Your answer is that it is in the gemara, not the Torah.

Also, stop altering my quotes.

[yoine]

it is the simple fact of the matter that as ultra orthodoxy continues to grow and astonishing rates and secular jewry continue to intermarry at astonishing rates, the former will overtake the latter as the dominant branch of world jewry. in 20 years it is likely chareidi jews will be the both the majority of jewry in israel and the united states, for the simple reason of reproductivity and intermarriage rates. with 8 kids a family it will not take very long to become the ruling majority! it's already evident in jerusalem and in new york. next the yidden will take over the ganzer velt!!

[Yoely]

In the sefer "Moshiyan Shel Yisroel", which is a multi-volume biography of the Satmar Rebbe, zy"a, it says the following (I'm going to paraphrase):

The Satmar Rebbe never told people not to go to Eretz Yisrael. He told them not to go with the Zionists, because he knew that Zionist aggression would lead the British to close down immigration to Eretz Yisrael. This is indeed what happened. The Zionists used terrorist tactics against the British because they wanted independance, thus the British said we don't need these troublemaking Jews here. The Satmar Rebbe said that 6 million Jews could have gone to Eretz Yisrael and been saved from the Nazis if it were not for the arrogance of the Zionists insisting on sovreignty!

[Shmarya]

That may be the Satmar spin but it is not the truth.

[Jgarbuz]

The ultraorthodox rabbis share in the responsibility of the death of millions of Jews in Europe because they were antizionists who told their congregants to remain in Europe even though the League of Nations opened up Palestine for Jewish settlement from 1920-1938. If not for them, there might have been a million more Jews in Palestine, and even a Jewish state by 1938.
The rabbis were WRONG! Along with the leftist communist Jews, they must accept blame themselves for the needless deaths of millions who could have escaped to Eretz Yisrael and saved their own lives when the gate of Palestine were wide open. Rommel was defeated and miraculously never entered Palestine, and so the Jews who were there were spared extermination. The rabbis have lost all right to tell Jews anything, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jgarbuz]

Those who say that the "yidden" will takeover are talking like the Muslim Arabs who say their prodigious birth rate will take over "Palestine." Clearly the ghetto Jews (as I call the "ultraorthodox") have allied themselves with the Muslims who want to "remove Israel from the pages of history." Why don't they go to Iran and become Muslims? Not that the assimilationist leftists are any better. Both are renegades.

[Jgarbuz]

Anyhow, must of these Hungarian Satmar types are of Khazar and Magyar origins and have little or no ISraelite DNA in their genes, and so they reject the State of Israel because their true homeland is in Khazaria south of Russia. If they are honest at all, they should convert to Islam so that true Jews can be rid of these ignoramuses.

[Jgarbuz]

My mother wanted to go to Palestine from Poland in the 1930s, along with some her girlfriends, but my grandmother wouldn't let her. A few years later, my grandmother, my mother's first 4 year old baby; her two brothers, and her first husband were all murdered by the Nazi collaborators. My mother was lucky to be saved by some Christian farmers. Those "sabotnik" Christian farmers who saved Jes were BETTER than all those Hareidi rabbis who bailed out and bribed their way out a the last minute, after telling their sheep that all would be well! So much for following rabbis.

[Henry]

I'm sure that the Zionists staged this to convince the Rebbe to move to Israel and side with the people who chooses to disobey G-d. While this is a seen as a good deed by you people for obvious reasons, the Rebbe had every right reason to acknowledge that he was rescued by G-d. As far as I know, the Rebbe kept on praying for his people especially during his journey out of Hungary when he obviously had no control of the situation and most likely did not know if he would make it out alive. Yeah you Zionists can keep patting yourselves for "loyally rescuing the Rebbe," but G-d will always know that the Rebbe is innocent and it is you people that are actually evil.

[Henry]

I'm sure that the Zionists staged this to convince the Rebbe to move to Israel and side with the people who chooses to disobey G-d. While this is a seen as a good deed by you people for obvious reasons, the Rebbe had every right reason to acknowledge that he was rescued by G-d. As far as I know, the Rebbe kept on praying for his people especially during his journey out of Hungary when he obviously had no control of the situation and most likely did not know if he would make it out alive. Yeah you Zionists can keep patting yourselves for "loyally rescuing the Rebbe," but G-d will always know that the Rebbe is innocent and it is you people that are actually evil.