Satmar and the Holocaust

Tibi writes:

My father is from the region of Satmar. He is now 82 and still remembers R' Yoilish bribing the regional governor to ban B'nei Akivah.

Many of the local Rebbeim went with their people to the camps and comforted them, supported them, until the very end.

[Rabbi Yoel] Teitelbaum [the Satmar Rebbe] was spirited off to Switzerland by the very Zionists he so despised.

After 46 years of, unfortunately, having dealings with the Satmar community my general impression has been that they are often ignorant, hateful and despise other Jews tremendously. Those that are more tolerant and decent among them are often forced to keep their views closeted so they don't suffer derision and loss of livelihood.

The one thing they sure can't be compared to is: Amish.

Comments

[SJ]

Titelbaum = Title Bum

Satmars, get a clue: NOBODY LIKES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[s]

Amish?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uMHvKb7Qw

[Paul Freedman]

Whether or not we accept the story that the Rebbe was saved due to a miracle, his choice was either suicide with his flock or rescue with the hope of rebuilding later--the above story is written from ignorance, the Rebbe was not rescued per se, his rescue was a last minute addition to the exchange worked out by the Zionist apparatchik Kastner for an evacuation intended for Zionists and his own family; there was no original plan or expectation to save his congregants. Moreover, the evacuated did not go directly to Switzerland but ended up in Bergen-Belsen. The Kastner exchange became a scandal in Israel, not because of the Rebbe's rescue but because of the nepotism and party-favoritism shown in drawing up the lists of those to be rescued.

[Wikipedia:

Teitelbaum was rescued from death in the Holocaust during 1944 in Nazi-controlled Transylvania as a result of a deal between a Hungarian Zionist official, Rudolph Kastner, and a deputy of Adolf Eichmann. Although Kastner intended to rescue only Hungarian Zionists on a special train bound for Switzerland, Teitelbaum and a few other religious Jews were also given seats. (Some of Teitelbaum's followers believe it was the result of a dream in which Kastner's father-in-law was informed by his late mother that if Teitelbaum were not included on the train, none of the passengers would survive.) En route, the train was re-routed by the Germans to Bergen-Belsen, where the 1600 passengers languished for four months while awaiting further negotiations between rescue activists and the Nazi leadership. In the end, the train was released and continued on to Switzerland.}

[Paul Freedman]

for those interested, you can Google "Kastner Affair"--this became a secular socialist scandal, not a heredi one

[SJ]

So how does this change the fact that if it weren't for the Zionists, Title Bum would be Title Dead.

In retrospect, the zionists probably should have let Title Bum rot with the rest of his followers because Title Bum was totally Title Unappreciative of the zionists after the help that he was given and did what ever he could to fight the zionists.

[Paul Freedman]

SJ: This was a Zionist scandal because it showed how rescue fronm the Shoah became distorted by the secular to serve private interests as favoritism distorted rescue negotiations. Kastner showed indifference to the plight of the Satmar congregants you lay at the feet of the Rebbe alone. If the story that Kastner's hand was forced by a dream is actually true, then Teitelbaum would conclude he owed his rescue to the Lord he continued, he thought, to serve by, yes, fighting Zionism.

[Tibi]

The point was this same man who vilified Zionism and even banned an Orthodox group like B'nai Akiva owed his life to Zionists. The wikipedia article is a whitewash of Teitelbaum and Kastner as well. Kastner facilitated the transport of Hungarian Jews to the camps in exchange for a few hundred he considered "worth" saving. No, Teitelbaum didn't 'commit suicide' as you put it, but he ran off and didn't even warn his people to at least try and run, hide, go to Palestine or anything else. He took advantage of the opportunity to save his own skin and nothing more. Some Tzaddik.

[Shmarya]

for those interested, you can Google "Kastner Affair"--this became a secular socialist scandal, not a heredi one

Not really. Satmar worked very hard to get the Rebbe saved, this after the Rebbe told thousands of people the Nazis would never take Hungary and Romania because God and God would "protect us" because we are "NOT ZIONIST." Earlier, he forbade people to leave for Israel.

Kastner has largely been vindicated. Yad Vashem has many archival documents that support Kastner and Jewish Slovakian historians who are survivors all support him.

Kastner put his family on that train because otherwise Jews would not have boarded. The Satmar Rebbe was added because his followers offered to pay the Nazis through Kastner and because the Rebbe, who was in hiding, became available as a result.

Kastenr hoped to have many trains after the first one. Instead, there was only that one and it did not go to Switzerland. Kastner worked very hard and took real risks to get those people out of German hands to freedom.

The scandal created years later in Israel over the Kastner Affair happened because the Slovak and other archives were sealed. All Israelis had to work with was the testimony of Kastner and of others. It became his word against other survivors who were NOT on that train.

Only now, after the Slovak archives have been opened do we know the extent Kastner went to to save as many Jews as he could. We also know why his family was on the train. (Jews did not trust the deal and did not want to get on; the Germans also wanted Kastner's family on the train to make Kastner come up with more money after the train left.)

The true scandal of the Kastner Affair is the behavior of Satmar. After the war in Williamsburg and in other Satmar enclaves, one could buy the book Perfidy, which (unintentionally, to be sure) libeled Kastner and other books criticizing Zionist rescue attempts. What you could not buy was a book that told the story of the Satmar Rebbe's rescue by Zionists.

[SJ]

>> it showed how rescue fronm the Shoah became distorted by the secular to serve private interests

The restoration of the State of Israel was not a "private interest."

>> " favoritism distorted rescue negotiations."

Its not favoritism. Its called, don't help someone who is going to backstab what the Jewish people was trying to do.

>> "then Teitelbaum would conclude he owed his rescue to the Lord he continued, he thought, to serve by, yes, fighting Zionism."

So, Title Bum's idea of serving God was by being against Jewish self defense, at a time when Jews particularly needed to defend themselves.

Title Bum was a moron.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya is trying to rehash his drivel to rehabilitate Kasztner.

Many Jews were not on Kasztner's train because they were on trains of a completely different sort. Kasztner, who was the only Jew in Hungary allowed by the Nazis to drive a car and own a telephone (among other freedoms), encouraged Jews to get on the train for "resettlement and work" (Auschwitz).

Even UOJ thinks Shmarya is a fruit loop for pushing this revisionist crap.

SHmarya should replace the logo atop this page, his misuse of Rabbi Chanina's statement, and replace it with "Arbeit macht frei".

Kasztner was a filthy accomplice to Nazi mass murder who Shmarya will use if thinks he can make Orthodox Jews look bad.

SHmarya tells us all to look forward to his masterpiece later this week on the supposed ancestry of Ashkenazim. He will no doubt claim some non-Jewish origins. To a certain extent this is true but he can speak for his own family and a few others. Who else would promote the trash that he does?

[Archie Bunker]

I should add that the Chofetz Chaim noted Rishonim on Nach who say that those among us who behave in the manner of Shmarya, descend from the Amalekites who snuck into Israel with the Erev Rav (The "mixed multitude" of over 2 million people of various races and ethnicities that included escaped convicts from ancient Egyptian jails).

[Paul Freedman]

Archie: Shmarya: I haven't come across sources that vindicated Kastner or connect a Satmar campaign to rescue the Rebbe with the Rebbe's inclusion on the train. It would be interesting to see a source cited based on the Slovak archives. I don't claim to approve or understand Satmar's reality construct--at a certain point insular idealism (aka "ghetto mentality") passes into "magical thinking". But Satmar's first and foremost victims are its own members (and the taxpayers of New York).

Maybe Satmar Chassidim refused to board the Kastner train because seating was not segregated between the sexes

[Anon]

think what you want about Satmar, but you are completely dillusional if you believe this revisionist history about Kastner.

[Barry]

The most painful aspect of the Holocaust for Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and leaving for USA or Palestine or for abandoning their faith and intermarrying. Most Jews see those rabbis as unenlightened and superstitious having feet of clay but some still see those rabbis as demi-gods and try to blame others be they reform or Zionist for the suffering their own backwardness and refusal to be rational brought upon them and still brings them

[shmuel]

"I should add that the Chofetz Chaim noted Rishonim on Nach who say that those among us who behave in the manner of Shmarya, descend from the Amalekites who snuck into Israel with the Erev Rav (The "mixed multitude" of over 2 million people of various races and ethnicities that included escaped convicts from ancient Egyptian jails).
Posted by: Archie Bunker"

What's behaving "in the manner of Shmarya" entail? Debating points about which others are uncomfortable? Citing recent documents about which you're not aware? Fighting corruption, child sex abuse, coverup? If so, you're right: this is Amalekite behavior, I guess, because fighting corruption, child sex abuse and coverup sure isn't rabbinic behavior.

And another thought: it's been @3,500 years since the Exodus. After being pulverized by the Babylonians, Romans, Muslims, Crusaders, Turks, Ukranians, Poles, Russians, and Nazis (have I left anyone out?), I find it difficult to believe that any one of us is really descended from the "Erev Rav." It's a cute thing to say, but I believe it has no truth. We lost so many millions over the years that to be able to determine who descended from whom is a real long shot to be sure of. I believe we have a lot of Slovak blood in us, judging by our contemporary Ashkenazi look---fair hair, skin, blue eyes, etc., something you wouldn't have expected from dark skinned Jews 2000 years before (and I read recently that Slovaks served Jews in the medieval period and many converted, thus the Slav look some of us have, though we'll have to wait for Shmarya's upcoming post on that).

Rabbi Sonnenfeld thought the Kaiser of Germany was of Amalekite extraction, and other highly-regarded rabbis thought the Nazis were Amalekites. In your very humble opinion, do you really think Shmarya is in that category?

[Jew Boy]

The most painful aspect of the American experience for Non Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and abandon their faith and intermarrying.
Barry what is the future of Am Yisroel or do you care ?
Your method might win a battle but in the big picture if not for our cleeving to the Torah as taught by the Rabbis you so despise, Mark Twain would never have wrote his article about the "imortality of the Jew"
We would have been gone long before Hitler
Unless you wish the jewish people never exsisted (like many people wish) we need to hear a better philosphy from you

[Shmarya]

Paul –

Sources:

One
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/07/the-perfidy-tha.html

Two
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/07/the-perfidy-t-1.html

[Archie Bunker]

The behavior of the hidden Amalekites is described as attacking anything connected to the Torah, the rabbis and the teaching of the rabbis.

And yes, hidden Amalekites do have descendents left after various massacres. Thankfully, their numbers are small. There are not many like Shmarya who make this their life's mission.

Fighting corruption, child sex abuse, etc is the mission of UOJ and others who operate to protect religious Judaism from poseurs in black cloaks. Shmarya seeks to undermine it.

There is no question that many converts joined the ranks of Jews over the centuries but that is not the only reason Jews have blond hair. It is just plain silly to believe that all blonde Ashkenazim come from Slovaks.

The Halabi Jews of Syria, many Iraqis and a minority of Moroccans are also known for blond hair.

It is true however that most Hungarians come from the Khazar nation. That is a hot topic that gets most Hungarians unsettled. Come to think of it, if Shmarya is somehow not an Amalekite, Rosenberg is a very Hungarian name.

[A reader]

Abunker: What do you have against the Khazars? The Arab myth is that all Ashkenazic Jewry descends from the Khazar people. This claim has not been scientifically substantiated and is largely rejected by academics, other than of course, anti-semites and racist Arabs. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that "theory" is included in Shmarya's upcoming post.

[A reader]

Barry's astounding solution to the problem of other people wanting to exterminate a race of human beings for having a particular belief system or being born into an ethnicity is one for the ages. Give in to the demands of the genocidal killers and try to become like them (of course, they wouldn't allow this anyway). Let me give up who I am so that I can please those who believe certain human beings should be treated like animals and worse. Barry it appears you lack any dignity whatsoever. Most of the people posting here make me sick, but this one takes the cake. Let's blame the rabbis for not urging the conducting of idolatrous sacrifices, pagan rituals, and cross-wearing, and the utter denial of self-identity and any connection to G-d, in order to ward off the Nazis. Right...

[Shmarya]

I don't think you are accurately representing what Barry wrote:The most painful aspect of the Holocaust for Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and leaving for USA or Palestine or for abandoning their faith and intermarrying. Most Jews see those rabbis as unenlightened and superstitious having feet of clay but some still see those rabbis as demi-gods and try to blame others be they reform or Zionist for the suffering their own backwardness and refusal to be rational brought upon them and still brings them

[Charlie Hall]

While I detest the Zionist-bashing here, I must say that I have been blessed to know many Chasidic Jews, including Satmar, and find them all to be wonderful people. They even fully respect my modern orthodox rabbis and accept them as rabbis. I just don't talk Israeli politics with the anti-Zionists. (Then again, I don't talk Israeli politics with Kahanists, either.)

[Paul Freedman]

shmarya--I will check out the Haaretz articles

[Michoel]

Tibi wrote:

"Satmar worked very hard to get the Rebbe saved, this after the Rebbe told thousands of people the Nazis would never take Hungary and Romania because God and God would "protect us" because we are "NOT ZIONIST." "

Please provide a clear source for this claim. And no, saying "Everyone knows it" does not count as a sourse.

[Michoel]

I mean the claim re what the Rebbe told to thousands of people, not that Satmar worked hard etc.

[Shmarya]

Eim HaBanim Semeicha by Rabbi Teichtal is an eyewitness account of Hungarian rabbis doing what Tibi claims.
This is hardly even news, except, for some reason, to Satmar.

[Tibi]

Here's the facts: "Eichmann told Life Magazine that Kastner "agreed to help keep the Jews from resisting deportation — and even keep order in the collection camps — if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate to Palestine. It was a good bargain." [3]

By May 1944, Kastner and many other Jewish leaders knew that Jews were being sent to their deaths, having received the Vrba-Wetzler report at the end of April 1944. The report was released to the leaders of Jewish organizations in the hope that Hungarian Jews would be warned that they were being deported to a death camp and were not being resettled, as they had been led to believe. However, the report was not made public by Kastner and other Jewish leaders in Hungary. [21]"

That pretty much sums up Rudolf Kastner. He traded lives like they were playing cards. Y'mach Sh'mo V'Zichrono

[cassi]

"Most of the people posting here make me sick"

So why are you here?

If you only want to here what pleases you, then places such as this is not for you, this is those that have an interest in understanding the world the live in, as we are here only once, and by understanding it we may also improve it.

The truth can be painful, as such if one is not strong, but rather is instead weak (such as yourself) then that person will be unable to appropriately deal with both the emotional trauma and mental effects resulting from such knowledge.

"Let's blame the rabbis for not urging the conducting of idolatrous sacrifices"

Were not the priestly sacrifices offered to God, barbaric rituals?

"pagan rituals, and cross-wearing"

This clearly exposes your bigoted and racist character, how shameful, and you pretend to follow Gods teachings, seems more like the teachings of other racist and bigoted rabbi's. Racist ( only what your ways and what you believe to know is correct=racism = you are an ignorant and racist fool, the most dangerous kind).

[cassi]

"Most of the people posting here make me sick"

So why are you here?

If you only want to here what pleases you, then places such as this is not for you, this is those that have an interest in understanding the world the live in, as we are here only once, and by understanding it we may also improve it.

The truth can be painful, as such if one is not strong, but rather is instead weak (such as yourself) then that person will be unable to appropriately deal with both the emotional trauma and mental effects resulting from such knowledge.

"Let's blame the rabbis for not urging the conducting of idolatrous sacrifices"

Were not the priestly sacrifices offered to God, barbaric rituals?

"pagan rituals, and cross-wearing"

This clearly exposes your bigoted and racist character, how shameful, and you pretend to follow Gods teachings, seems more like the teachings of other racist and bigoted rabbi's. Racist ( only what your ways and what you believe to know is correct=racism = you are an ignorant and racist fool, the most dangerous kind).

[Lev]

Shmuel, Russians never "pulverised" Jews.
Find "200 years Together" by A.I. Solzhenitsyn, the best sincere friend of Jewish Orthodoxy outside of Judaism(well, his wife's Jewish).
Shmarya, without any pro and contra above I just want to note that Yoel Teitelbaum was of opinion that his beloved Satu-Mare and vicinity belong to Romania, NOT Hungary.
This opinion was sealed years later by Helsinki Final Act.
Archie, Hungarians are by NO MEANS Khazars.
They closely relate to small nations on the NORTHEN (Khazars were in the South) bank of the Volga river, also Finns and Estonians.
These are Finno-Ugric people, and Hungarians consider themselvs chosen among them that they live in Central Europe and not in Krapistans.

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Come to think of it, if Shmarya is somehow not an Amalekite, Rosenberg is a very Hungarian name."

Rosenberg is a German name, not a Hungarian one. I studied the language. (Disclosure, my real surname is also German, as are many Ashkenazi "Jewish" names).

[MalachHamovies]

Alfred Rosenberg was a top nazi. He was tried as a war criminal and was hung in nurenberg.

Shmayra,

Tibi makes some serious claims re: Kastner including quoting from a Life Magazine article/interview with Eichmann in 1956. 4 years before he was captured.

Care to comment ?

[The Monsey Tzaddik]

Thank you Shmarya for brining up this subject often. This mentality of people listening to rabbis and follow orders which are against their own best interest prevail today more than ever.

I hear so many stories of idiots poor souls (not only BT but FFB as well) who by advice of a rabbi go against their spouse, their parents, their children etc. and ruin the lives of everyone involved.

[PishPosh]

IMO, where the Rabbis went tra la la was not that they tried to keep the nation together after the Churban, its okay if some of the more learned tried to help the average joe keep up hope, to remember he still had family wherever there were Jews in the world and that the Torah was still the Darcei Noam.
But as Orwell said "he who controls the past controls the future and he who controls the present controls the past." So since the Sadducess and Essenes and other myriad sects went out with the Roman wars, the only version we truly have theologically speaking, is the Rabbis, So now that they control the past, they now in the present can use that to manipulate the people in the future and make them more superstitious and more burden with BS customs that my grandfather oh would never have heard of And we should remind them of Mordechais caution to Esther, that it is incumbent upon them to take action in this matter of charedi extremism, or that we the nation of Israel, the Am Haaretzimm that they so obviously despise, the common folk outside of their chavruta, will take actions on our own, and these Rabbis who should have stood up to be counted will end up destroyed along with the fanatics.

[shmuel]

"The behavior of the hidden Amalekites is described as attacking anything connected to the Torah, the rabbis and the teaching of the rabbis." Pretty self serving, no? And what of the Karaites? Do you really think anyone ever called them closet Amalekites? Are you crazy, or just ignorant? The rishonim argued with them for centuries. Were they debating theology with Amalekites?

"And yes, hidden Amalekites do have descendents left after various massacres. Thankfully, their numbers are small."
Small, like your head, Archie. It's a bubbe maiseh, you shlemiel. After 3500 years, they're not around anymore. It's just a term of art: if you don't listen to everything we rabbis say, you're an Amalekite. That's what they mean. Never learned Midrash, did you?

"There is no question that many converts joined the ranks of Jews over the centuries but that is not the only reason Jews have blond hair. It is just plain silly to believe that all blonde Ashkenazim come from Slovaks. The Halabi Jews of Syria, many Iraqis and a minority of Moroccans are also known for blond hair."

I never said it was the only reason. I said it may have been a major reason. But I forgot to add that our women were raped by Europeans for centuries. Sorry!
And as for Sefardic Jews and Arabs who have blonde hair, they're a fraction of their populations. The vast majority have a dark-skinned, swarthy look. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Finally, Lev wrote: "Shmuel, Russians never "pulverised" Jews."
Of course not, Lev. You're so right! I must have been thinking about another miserable hell-hole of a country which did non-stop pogroms on the Jews in the 19th and 20th centuries, such that millions checked out, after being told by their rabbis not to leave.

[Shmarya]

Tibi makes some serious claims re: Kastner including quoting from a Life Magazine article/interview with Eichmann in 1956. 4 years before he was captured.

Care to comment ?

I don't think the data backs Eichmann. I'm not even sure there was such an interview.

Eichmann's goal would have been to kill more Jews. Making Kastner look bad achieved that goal. It got Kastner killed.

The archival data supports Kastner.

[Shmarya]

In other words, AB, anyone who is critical of rabbis and what rabbis say is Torah is therefore an "Amalekite" – and, of course, we are all commanded to kill an Amalekite.

Your rabbis played dirty to fight challenges they could not win intellectually, based on the facts, just as you play dirty for the same reasons today.

[Michoel]

Shmarya,
What Tibi claimed is very clear and specific. I am waiting for a specific quote to substantiate it. As in, Joe Berstein writes in ... that he heard "The Satmar Rebbi say... to thousands of people that..." A vague reference to what Eim Habanim Smeicha says about Hungarian rabbis is not called substantiation. The "anti" blogger crowd tends to be very loose with their facts.

[Shmarya]

Try reading the book. Try learning history.

[Shmarya]

Or, put another way, TIBI IS THE SON OF A WITNESS WHO HEARD FROM HIS FATHER WHAT THE SATMAR REBBE DID.

It so happens there a DOZENS OF SIMILAR REPORTS, one of them published in EIM HABANIM SEMEICHA.

Now get off your ass and learn.

[Shmarya]

Or try it this way:

Do you have any facts that CONTRADICT Tibi? Can you QUOTE a source or two that does?

Of course not.

[Michoel]

Shamrya,
I am open to hearing you with an open mind. Don't loose your kishkas. It is not clear from what Tibi wrote that he was quoting his grandfather when he wrote that the Satmar Rav told thousands of people etc. But let's say that he did hear that explicitely from his granfather. If the shoe would be on the other foot, meaning if a Satmar chasid told you that they heard from there grandfather that they saw the Satmar Rav do some great act of mesirus nefesh and say thousands of yiddnen, would YOU and Tibi consider that a sufficient source? No, you would laugh at it. So, if the Seal of Hakadosh Baruch Hu is truth and that is your motto, you should live by it.

"Do you have facts that contradict Tibi?" This question is just silly and hopefully you'll agree with me after a bit of honest reflection. I did not publicly claim something to be true. It is upon him and you to bring a raya.

[Tibi]

To clarify: I'm the son of a witness. NOT the son of a witness who heard from his father. My father is from Baia Mare, Romania. He was (oddly enough) a Sephardic Jew in a Hungarian speaking family. He, and many of his friends, relatives and contemporaries from that region consistently report very negative experiences with R' Yoilish dating back to the late 1920's and early 30's. I respect Shmarya's point of view and I do appreciate the depth to which he does research his data. Nonetheless it's my opinion that there is a revisionism currently in effect to rehabilitate Kastner. Certainly a substantial amount of Nazi documentation does exist which condemns him, either directly or circumstantially. Next topics: Ben Gurion and how he screwed Survivors. The modern secular Holocaust Claims Commissions and how they allow Survivors to live in dire poverty while they sit on billions in restitution money. I'll let Shmarya start those threads. ;-)

[Tibi]

Also, you all seem to be mixing up some posts here. I NEVER posted anything supporting Satmar.

[Barry]

The point I was making was that no one people throughout the world suffered so much in the last century as the Haredi community in Eastern Europe, not the reform Jews in Germany, not the Zionist Jews in Palestine and not the Godless intermarried Jews in America. Not the Russians, not the Japanese and yes, not even the German Nazis. Contrary to what A Reader claims, by stating as fact that the Haredi Jews suffered far worse than Jews who married out, it does not follow that I suggest that we should marry out any more than my stating as fact that Jews suffered far worse than their murderers suggest that I recommend we become murderers! Neither do I blame Haredi rabbis for failing to understand the Nazi danger or forsee the Holocaust. Most people both frum and non-frum, Zionist and non-Zionist, Jew and gentile did not forsee that danger or grossly underestimated it. I say these people's failure to forsee the Holocaust can be explained by saying they are only human after all and we all can make mistakes. But for Haredis it is not possible to say that their Gedolim can be collectively mistaken because they are human. They see them as super human and therefore outside the world of rationality. So if Gedolim say that Jews can exist outside the rational world and that prayer and ritual are all that is needed to survive then so be it. After all Gedolim such as the 'Chofetz Chaim', noted rishonim on Nach as well as 'Rabbi Sonnenfeld and highly regarded rabbis' have said so. They are wrong whoever they are. They have been proven wrong by events just as they have been shown to be wrong in claiming that the world is 5768 years old or that men need not work.

No, Jew Boy, I do not wish that the Jews never existed. What I fear is for the future in that Judaism will retreat into superstition and irrationality turning its back on history or science (so as not to show up the Gedolim for being very ordinary people of their time) talking nonsense about present day Amalekim and dead people appearing in dreams warning about saving some rebbe's life in 1944. Its a shame those dead people did not appear in someone's dream some 60 years earlier giving advice how to stop Hitlers parents meeting each other! Whatever the future for Judaism is, it must not be irrational Haredi.

[Barry]

The point I was making was that no one people throughout the world suffered so much in the last century as the Haredi community in Eastern Europe, not the reform Jews in Germany, not the Zionist Jews in Palestine and not the Godless intermarried Jews in America. Not the Russians, not the Japanese and yes, not even the German Nazis. Contrary to what A Reader claims, by stating as fact that the Haredi Jews suffered far worse than Jews who married out, it does not follow that I suggest that we should marry out any more than my stating as fact that Jews suffered far worse than their murderers suggest that I recommend we become murderers!

[Barry]

Neither do I blame Haredi rabbis for failing to understand the Nazi danger or forsee the Holocaust. Most people both frum and non-frum, Zionist and non-Zionist, Jew and gentile did not forsee that danger or grossly underestimated it. I say these people's failure to forsee the Holocaust can be explained by saying they are only human after all and we all can make mistakes. But for Haredis it is not possible to say that their Gedolim can be collectively mistaken because they are human. They see them as super human and therefore outside the world of rationality. So if Gedolim say that Jews can exist outside the rational world and that prayer and ritual are all that is needed to survive then so be it. After all Gedolim such as the 'Chofetz Chaim', noted rishonim on Nach as well as 'Rabbi Sonnenfeld and highly regarded rabbis' have said so. They are wrong whoever they are. They have been proven wrong by events just as they have been shown to be wrong in claiming that the world is 5768 years old or that men need not work.

No, Jew Boy, I do not wish that the Jews never existed. What I fear is for the future in that Judaism will retreat into superstition and irrationality turning its back on history or science (so as not to show up the Gedolim for being very ordinary people of their time) talking nonsense about present day Amalekim and dead people appearing in dreams warning about saving some rebbe's life in 1944. Its a shame those dead people did not appear in someone's dream some 60 years earlier giving advice how to stop a certain Austrian's parents meeting each other! Whatever the future for Judaism is, it must not be irrational Haredi.

[Barry]

Neither do I blame Haredi rabbis for failing to understand the Nazi danger or forsee the Holocaust. Most people both frum and non-frum, Zionist and non-Zionist, Jew and gentile did not forsee that danger or grossly underestimated it. I say these people's failure to forsee the Holocaust can be explained by saying they are only human after all and we all can make mistakes. But for Haredis it is not possible to say that their Gedolim can be collectively mistaken because they are human. They see them as super human and therefore outside the world of rationality. So if Gedolim say that Jews can exist outside the rational world and that prayer and ritual are all that is needed to survive then so be it. After all Gedolim such as the 'Chofetz Chaim', noted rishonim on Nach as well as 'Rabbi Sonnenfeld and highly regarded rabbis' have said so. They are wrong whoever they are. They have been proven wrong by events just as they have been shown to be wrong in claiming that the world is 5768 years old or that men need not work.

[Barry]

No, Jew Boy, I do not wish that the Jews never existed. What I fear is for the future in that Judaism will retreat into superstition and irrationality turning its back on history or science (so as not to show up the Gedolim for being very ordinary people of their time) talking nonsense about present day Amalekim and dead people appearing in dreams warning about saving some rebbe's life in 1944. Its a shame those dead people did not appear in someone's dream some 60 years earlier giving advice how to stop a certain Austrian's parents meeting each other! Whatever the future for Judaism is, it must not be irrational Haredi.

[Archie Bunker]

"Rosenberg is a German name, not a Hungarian one."

Yochanan,

We are both correct. Rosenberg of course has German origins but there are several such names that are predominately Hungarian as far as Jews go.

Hungarians have the monopoly on size based surnames like Gross and Klein and on color based surnames like Roth (Red), Weiss (White) & Schwartz (Black).

[Archie Bunker]

"And what of the Karaites?"

Listen chuchem,

First some background. The Karaites' motivations are in question as to whether they were sincere converts from day one. Over the centuries they then proved themselves to be frauds, becoming apostates to other religions when it suited them.

The Karaites get creative with interpreting the Torah to make life easier for themselves. They don't attack it with bitterness.

Shmuel's ad hominem attacks notwithstanding, it's almost impossible that any trace of Mixed Multitude Amalekites was wiped out. I did say their descendents are few in number. Surely Shmuel can find something better to get all worked up about. The Scotsman newspaper broke a story a few years ago that a Nazi disguised as a Jew had made his way to Israel, married a Jewish woman and raised a family. It's very likely that his 3 sons will have a few descendents many years down the road.

Oriental Jews from Aleppo, Syria with blond hair are a very large "fraction", not the miniscule number that Shmuel implies.

When Jews lived somewhere for over a thousand years, they can develop blond hair for the same reasons that gentiles do, even without unfortunate rapes and being joined by converts. SHmarya probably believes in the Indo-European theory. So explain how European non-Jews had blonde hair from India..

[Jew Boy]

Barry -Take it or leave it - its the superstitions and the kabbalistic jews,be them hasidic or non -sephardic or Ashkenazic that have survived and continue to flourish. The only jews that complain about jewish superstitions are jews with parents or grand parents that practised them.
The reformers and academic jews(maskilim?) of the 1800,s (even those that to a certain extent stayed torah observant dont have grand children today that look at failedmessiah or uoj or other such jewish blogs,or even know who they come from. This is were its at like it or not.

[Tibi]

"Hungarian" names are often the same as German names because Hungary was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Metternich mandated Germanic surnames for a period of time.

Barry, plenty non-Haredi suffered to the same degree. Just take a look and see how few Greek Jews survived the Holocaust.

By the way- the ONLY known group of Jews to collectively refuse to work as Sonderkommando and facilitate the murder of their fellow Jews were Greek Jews. In 1945 a group of (approximately) 490 Jews from the Island of Korfu chose death rather then become Sonderkommando. No group, be it Haredi or other, ever has been reported to show such courage, integrity and love for their fellow Jew during the Holocaust.

[Jew Boy]

Barry
I guess I'll see @ kaparos next year........
using organic chickens that are only housed in an air conditioned ,padded crate fully stocked with organic chicken feed and an supply of perrie .

[SJ]

Tibi, the way that heredim "showed courage" during the holocaust was by two of them holding a twig together on shabbos so that they can do it with a "shiinuy" so that its "not such a bad chilul" and they can look like retards.

[shmuel]

Barry writes:
"Neither do I blame Haredi rabbis for failing to understand the Nazi danger or forsee the Holocaust. Most people both frum and non-frum, Zionist and non-Zionist, Jew and gentile did not forsee that danger or grossly underestimated it."
He makes a point, but wasn't Jabotinsky running around, screaming about an impending catastrophe? Noone listened. Certainly not charedim. Those Jews who, seeing pogroms for decades, inquired whether they could leave for the US or Palestine were told no, they were treife places to settle. Then some may have heard some madman in Germany yelling about the Jews. When they inquired, they were told the same thing. Those who listened and complied with the advice stayed and were murdered. All of us alive today had, or have, grandparents who either didn't ask the shaila or ignored the advice. They emigrated and lived. We're all here today because our grandparents ignored rabbinic charedi advice, not because they listened to it. A painful thought. And it's a thought no charedi wants to give a moment's attention to.
Further, I'm often shown a piece by the Ohr Samayach who predicted in the late 19th century that there would be a terrible conflagration not long in the future (if memory serves me well). Not sure why that didn't encourage more people to leave.

Further, I agree with the rest of Barry's comments there. Charedim who feel their rabbis are infallible sure have a lot of 'splainin' to do. But when you put it out of your mind, it's easy to get through a day. Imagine having to think that maybe you're rabbi isn't God? Another painful thought.

Finally: much praise is heaped on Rabbi Aharon Kotler for his vision of an America with a yeshiva modeled on the Eastern European yeshivos of old, with full-time Torah students, kollelim, etc. All fine and good. But what of the many other Eastern European rabbis, who screamed against emigrating to America? Where was their vision? Lacking, right? Isn't that the unspoken criticism of all those who
support(ed) Rabbi Kotler?

[SJ]

tibi, to put it in as precise of a way as possible, that is how haredim rationalize the fact that they fucked up badly by not getting out of Europe while they still could.

[Archie Bunker]

These Monday Morning Quarterbacks like Shmarya & SJ are incredible.

I bet they would make the wrong decision had they been there.

[Paul Freedman]

It seems we have two versions of Kastner: a community apparatchik who crosses over into collaboration with Eichman in order to rescue those near and dear to him and a selfless and maligned rescuer --indeed a martyr--the legal record is ambiguous, the Israeli Supreme Court itself overturning the court condemnation. I would like to follow-up Shmarya's references and Tom Segev although I don't accept as automatically credible hypothetical scenarios such as Eichman's intent to play the provocateur in naming Kastner as a buddy--if such transcripts exist).

Similarly we have charge-countercharge on the Satmar Rebbe.

My thought is that the Naziis are the enemies here not the victims who were forced to play very slim hands indeed when they fell under Nazi control in a moral universe gone, in Kastner's words "blacker than night, darker than hell"--Jews, Judenrat, Kastner, hero's, saints, sinners, were in the direst of straits in which the ethics of self-preservation were no academic exercise but an interminably daily lachetz.

But I think Barry is very wise in noting that the challenge to heredi by the Holocaust is not the proof that their leaders are immoral but that their leaders are human and fallible, the challenge is to the doctrine of supernatural tzaddikus that over time replaced the more grounded and qualified charismatic tzaddikus of the Besht.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmuel has the timeline mixed up. Most rabbis had an aversion to the "treife medina" much earlier. Rabbi Kotler first got started in 1943 and wanted to resurrect Judaism from the ashes of the Holocaust.

[Barry]

Tibi, of course non-Haredi Jewish communities be they in Greece, Holland or France as well as those in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe suffered horrendously. God forbid that I would suggest that Haredi communities deserved destruction more than others or that they were singled out by God. The life of a Jew in Thessaloniki is as precious at that of a Jew in Warsaw, Satmar, Amsterdam or Paris. As I already stated, I do not blame Haredi rabbis for failing to forsee the dangers of Nazism anymore than I blame the leaders of other Jews communities. If the leaders of Britain and France failed to understand Hitler than why should Jewish leaders be better? No doubt if I had been sitting in Warsaw in 1939, I too would have been confident that Hitler would not dare take on Poland if that meant war with Britain and France (who 'on paper' had a combined stronger army). Not being Churchill or Jabotinski does not make you a fool or evil. What I do know is that there are Jews in the Americas, South Africa and Israel who are descendants of Jews (be they Polish, German, Dutch or Greek) who chose for whatever reason, to leave areas which later fell under the control of the Nazis. The rational attitude to take (and which is taken by the few Greek Jews I know) is to thank God in retrospect, that some Jews who would otherwise ended up in Nazi occupied areas did not do so, and to regret in retrospect that more Jews did not do the same. The Haredi attitude which I find particular offensive is to suggest AFTER WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN EUROPE, that those Jews who left Europe (particularly to Palestine) should have stayed because to say otherwise would imply that the consensus of the Gedolim (some of whom may have lived hundreds of years ago based on 'What was Written' maybe a thousand years ago), could sometimes be disastrously wrong and inapplicable in later circumstances, and that those Jews who think otherwise are descendants of the Erev Rav or even Amalek and who brought the Holocaust on Ehrliche Yidden. If you wish to see why Teitelbaum was wrong, do not look up any sefer. Just take a walk in Tel Aviv and count the Jews and then do the same in Transylvania.

[Barry]

Tibi, of course non-Haredi Jewish communities be they in Greece, Holland or France as well as those in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe suffered horrendously. God forbid that I would suggest that Haredi communities deserved destruction more than others or that they were singled out by God. The life of a Jew in Thessaloniki is as precious at that of a Jew in Warsaw, Satmar, Amsterdam or Paris. As I already stated, I do not blame Haredi rabbis for failing to forsee the dangers of Nazism anymore than I blame the leaders of other Jews communities. If the leaders of Britain and France failed to understand Hitler than why should Jewish leaders be better? No doubt if I had been sitting in Warsaw in 1939, I too would have been confident that Hitler would not dare take on Poland if that meant war with Britain and France (who 'on paper' had a combined stronger army). Not being born a Churchill or Jabotinski does not make you a fool or a knave.

[Barry]

What I do know is that there are Jews in the Americas, South Africa and Israel who are descendants of Jews (be they Polish, German, Dutch or Greek) who chose for whatever reason, to leave areas which later fell under the control of the Nazis. The rational (and more importantly the Jewish) attitude to take (and which is taken by the few Greek Jews I know) is to thank God in retrospect, that some Jews who would otherwise ended up in Nazi occupied areas did not do so, and to regret in retrospect that more Jews did not do the same. The Haredi attitude which I find particular offensive is to still suggest AFTER WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN EUROPE, that those Jews who left Europe (particularly to Palestine) should have stayed because to say otherwise would imply that the consensus of the Gedolim (some of whom may have lived hundreds of years ago based on 'What was Written' maybe a thousand years ago), could be disastrously wrong and inapplicable in later circumstances, and that those Jews who think otherwise are descendants of the Erev Rav or even Amalek and who brought the Holocaust on Ehrliche Yidden. If you wish to see why Teitelbaum was wrong, do not look up any sefer. Just take a walk in Tel Aviv and count the Jews and then do the same in Transylvania.

[shmuel]

Archie Bunker responds to me as follows:
I asked him,
"And what of the Karaites?"
He writes:
"Listen chuchem,

First some background. The Karaites' motivations are in question as to whether they were sincere converts from day one.
Over the centuries they then proved themselves to be frauds, becoming apostates to other religions when it suited them.
The Karaites get creative with interpreting the Torah to make life easier for themselves. They don't attack it with bitterness."

Where does one even begin to address such ignorance and drivel? We'll do it step by step, slowly, for Archie's sake, since he's the real "chuchem" from the Mah Nishtaneh.
Regarding their alleged "conversion" to Judaism, here's the Encyclopedia Judaica 10:763-764 (1974) on "Historical Development" in the entry "Karaites":

"The sect appears to have come into being as the result of a combination of factors: the amalgamation of various heterodox trends in Babylonian-Persian *Jewry*...and the social and economic grievances of the poorer classes of *Jewry*, particularly those who had left the populous center of Babylonia and had migrated to the sparsely settled frontier provinces of the caliphate, where they were more or less independent of the Babylonian Jewish authorities. The Karaite sect absorbed both such *Jewish* sects as the Isawites and the Yudghanites, who were influenced by East-Islamic tendencies, and smalll remnants of pre-Talmudic *Sadducees* and *Boethusians* and similar anti-traditional movements." The EJ continues that the Karaite version of their origin is fanciful, unhistorical and biased. So let's stick with what I provided above.
What do you say now, chuchem? Not a word of "converting" from some other faith. Jewry, Jewry, Jewry. These were Jews to begin with. And they stayed Jews. We think they're mamzerim (nothing personal, just business) because of their different gittin and kiddushin. But only JEWS can be mamzerim. They always were, and still are, Jews.

You further write that Karaites were into "becoming apostates to other religions when it suited them."
You mean, like us rabbinic Jews, who've been converting to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and every other "ism" over the past 2000 years? They're still around, son. Many are in Israel, in Ramle. They have a shul in California. They have a web presence, www.karaitekorner.com. Check them out. You'll learn something. Did they convert out? Maybe some did. So did we. And for convenience's sake, yes. We did that, too. Why accuse them of something we've done?

Finally, you write:
"The Karaites get creative with interpreting the Torah to make life easier for themselves. They don't attack it with bitterness."

Nothing true in that statement. Not in the reisha, not in the seifa. You really are ignorant of history. But I'll school you. And I'll even stop the ad hominem attacks, you moron:
Here's that dreaded EJ again (id. at 765): "Anan [commonly considered the founder of Karaism] cannot, however, be said to be a true 'reformer' of Judaism: far from easing the 'yoke' of traditional law, he made it more difficult to bear: he did not recognize the minimum quantities (shiurim) of forbidden foods fixed by the rabbis; he introduced more complicated regulations for the circumcision ceremony; he added to the number of fast days; he interpreted the prohibition of work on the Sabbath in stricter terms, etc. He was particularly severe with regard to the laws on marriage between relatives, ritual cleanliness, and relations with non-Jews."

So, chuchem...how are you feeling now? More enlightened? They didn't teach you this stuff in yeshiva, did they? There are 20 pages more on Karaites there for you to read and learn. So, good for you, you came to this blog and you're getting schooled. Feels good, no?

You write that they don't attack the "Torah" with bitterness. Of course that's true, if you restrict the word "Torah" to Scripture, which they revere. But as a rabbinic Jew you'd have to agree that the Oral Law is very much a part of the "Torah", don't you? And friend, they attacked (and still do, on their website) the Oral Law, for centuries, against Saadyah Gaon, and other Gainim and Rishonim etc., with all the sarcasm and bitterness that the guys over at www.daatemet do.

So what do you know? You've actually learned something today. Your lucky day. And I'll stop the personal attacks, you're right, since they detract from the impact. So, sorry about that, and enjoy your new- found knowledge!

[Archie Bunker]

Barry,

No sane individual will accuse someone who wanted to escape Europe of being an Amalekite.

And I have to commend you on your honesty for admitting what Shmarya will not:

"I do not blame Haredi rabbis for failing to forsee the dangers of Nazism anymore than I blame the leaders of other Jews communities. If the leaders of Britain and France failed to understand Hitler than why should Jewish leaders be better? No doubt if I had been sitting in Warsaw in 1939, I too would have been confident that Hitler would not dare take on Poland if that meant war with Britain and France (who 'on paper' had a combined stronger army). Not being born a Churchill or Jabotinski does not make you a fool or a knave."

[A reader]

Barry, your point as far as 'listening the the rabbi's advice' vs 'going with what the rabbi says wholesale no matter what' is a valid one.

What I take issue with is that you suggested intermarriage and "abandoning the faith" as a solution to the impending or ongoing Holocaust. This is disgusting on any wavelength, Jewish, or nonJewish. You suggested that in addition to listening to rabbis who said not to migrate to Palestine or America, that they also listened to rabbis who said not to intermarry or abandon the faith. They did not suffer because of this. They suffered because people hated the Jews and still do. Firstly, a rabbi is never going to tell a Jew to abandon his faith, no matter what strand of Judaism, and neither would a nonJewish priest of another religion. Secondly, it's not my job as a human being to change who I am because someone else doesn't like it. That is what intermarrying achieves to some extent, and it is certainly what "abandoning the faith" achieves, especially if these two things are done as a response to persecution.

To the person, cassi, that went on a diatribe calling me a racist: settle down, dismount the high horse, and if you bring a claim, have some kind of substantiation to back it up. Otherwise you are just slandering me, and while I don't appreciate that, it also reflects negatively on you. Your trite lecture about understanding the world is completely out of place (except of course if you were trying to paint a certain picture of me). The insult of calling me "weak" is an attack on my character. Not to mention that it doesn't stem from anything logical.

"Let's blame the rabbis for not urging the conducting of idolatrous sacrifices"

You say: Were not the priestly sacrifices offered to God, barbaric rituals?

I said idolatrous, not barbaric. And how is this relevant? My point about 'idolatrous practices' was addressing Barry's suggestion of abandoning the faith. An idolatrous practice would be a means of showing the Nazis you had abandoned Judaism, a way to grovel at their feet and beg for your life in a way lacking any dignity, in addition to it being an affront to G-d. Do you believe this is a productive and acceptable way to deal with killers who want to exterminate you for who you are?

"pagan rituals, and cross-wearing"

You say: "This clearly exposes your bigoted and racist character, how shameful, and you pretend to follow Gods teachings"

How so? Yet more slander from you, although the ensuing sentences get even more wildly insulting, sensational, and ludicrous. Again, 'pagan rituals and cross-wearing' as an answer to the Holocaust refers to Barry's taking issue with people who didn't listen to rabbis about "intermarrying" and "abandoning the faith." Perhaps you lack the reading comprehension to understand me before jumping to paint me as a 'bigoted Torah Jew' straw man. For your information, I never pretended about anything, and the way you viciously insult me reflects a lack of character development on your part. Of course, nothing (even in your own "weak" and farfetched interpretation of what I wrote) that I said was even the slightest bit racist at all. So that makes me wonder what your really attempting to do here.

Although not relevant at all to this discussion, I can't help but to address your wild accusation in some way so: I have no problem with people of other "races."

[shmuel]

Archie writes:
"No sane individual will accuse someone who wanted to escape Europe of being an Amalekite."
Naturally. But what Archie wants you to forget is that if you're *critical* of the charedi leadership for not having any foresight of the impending Holocaust, *then* you are, indeed, an Amalekite. But if you want to run away, be my guest. Though if you asked the shaila and you're not listening to your rabbi, there's a place in hell for you...

Archie then applauds Barry, who wrote:
"I do not blame Haredi rabbis for failing to forsee the dangers of Nazism anymore than I blame the leaders of other Jews communities. If the leaders of Britain and France failed to understand Hitler than why should Jewish leaders be better?"
They should be better, have greater vision, foresight, read the tea leaves better, because they hold themselves out as repositors of "Daas Torah", which IN THEIR opinion, is superior to all knowledge, is the very mind of God, should shed light on the future if we just learn it properly, and who is more schooled than they, etc. So, yes, I expect much more of my gedolim than from the Prime Minister of France. Especially if they have "Daas Torah" in their minds and the welfare of the entire Jewish population under their control. The fact that Jabo ran around warning people? Didn't matter. They ignored him. A wacko. A nut. Who's right now?

[Shmarya]

I have to commend you on your honesty for admitting what Shmarya will not:

"I do not blame Haredi rabbis for failing to forsee the dangers of Nazism anymore than I blame the leaders of other Jews communities. If the leaders of Britain and France failed to understand Hitler than why should Jewish leaders be better? No doubt if I had been sitting in Warsaw in 1939, I too would have been confident that Hitler would not dare take on Poland if that meant war with Britain and France (who 'on paper' had a combined stronger army). Not being born a Churchill or Jabotinski does not make you a fool or a knave."Foolish, Archie, and you know it.

Haredim – especially hasidim – make supernatural claims for their rebbes and leaders.

Whether the 'daas Torah' of the Litvaks or the 'navuah' of the hasidim, the claim is rabbis know best because they are 'closer to" and "better connected" with God.

Neither the followers of Jabotinsky or Churchill made those claims.

Haredi leaders did and thousands – really hundreds of thousands – of Jews died, in part as a result of those spurious claims.

[barry]

The last prophet was Malachi. That is why I wont be dreaming of a White Xmas and why my teddy bear is called Mohammed. That is why I am suspicious of Daas Torah and Papal infalability

[Archie Bunker]

While Shmuel continues to hurl personal insults with all the politeness of a street urchin, I will set the record straight.

He can continue to waste everyone's time and excerpt entire volumes of encyclopedias. I assume he knows the discussion in Talmud Bavli, tractate Chulin and elsewhere about the Karaites being "gerei arayos" a type of insincere and thus invalid convert, which in this case converted because they feared being killed. They were joined by breakaway Jewish sects later.

It was well known in the Talmudic era that Karaites worshipped idols as part of their non-Jewish religious practice and they later became apostates en masse to both Islam and Xtianity when it suited them and later returned to being Karaites when the coast was clear.

Shmuel expects us to pay attention to the garbage he dishes out, comparing regular Jews who become apostates to the entire movement of Karaites. What idiocy.

It's also obvious that Karaites have no connection to Amalekites since they have different goals in attacking rabbis.

[Shmarya]

Got a source for your Karaite=idol worshipper claim, Archie? BTW, I don't have a Chullin handy right now, but I believe the gemara is talking about Kuthim NOT Karaites.

[Archie Bunker]

What Shmarya and his cheeky sidekick Shmuel are ignoring is that the Holocaust was a time of "hester panim". The Torah itself explains the chaos that ensues which is beyond the comprehension of even great rabbis. The dayan of Brisk pointed this out when explaining why he could not give advice to flee or stay put, one way or the other.

Not everyone who is critical of rabbis dropping the ball during the Holocaust is an Amalekite. That designation is reserved for people like Shmarya who attack everything connected to rabbis AND the Torah itself.

[barry]

A Reader, you misunderstand me. . Contrary to what A Reader claims, by stating as fact that the Haredi Jews suffered far worse than Jews who married out, it does not follow that I suggest that we should marry out any more than my stating as fact that Jews suffered far worse than their murderers suggest that I recommend we become murderers!

[Shmarya]

Note Archie's 'logic':

1. Rabbis say with certainty do or do not do something. (In this case, do NOT move to Israel or the West.)

2. Large numbers of Jews die or suffer or lose money or become Christians, etc. as a result.

3. Rabbis explain their failure by blaming that failure on "blindness" caused by God, for reasons known only to God.

4. Therefore, the failure was NOT the rabbis' fault.

5. That means that people still must follow the commands of these rabbis.

Sick, circular, haredi reasoning.

[Archie Bunker]

We were taught in yeshiva that Kuthim were the original Karaites before merging with others. If someone can disprove that I am willing to listen.

In any case it was Karaites according to everyone who temporarily became Muslims and Xtians

[Shmarya]

The Kuthim lived more then 1500 years before the Karaites. They did not "become" Karaites.

What you may have been taught is that Kuthim became Samaritans.

[Archie Bunker]

SHmarya conveniently leaves out of the equation that there were several opinions among the rabbis to choose from.

1. No opinion

2. Stay put

3. Flee

[Shmarya]

Archie –

The vast majority of haredi rabbis chose option number 2. Next in line, although far more infrequent, was option number 1. Only a few haredi rabbis told people to choose option number 3 and flee.

You argue from the minority to 'prove' your point.

[Tibi]

Now I seem to be misinterpreted as a supporter of Satmar when in fact I believe that Teitelbaum's actions contributed to the death of most of my family. Weird.

[SJ]

Shmarya kicked Bunkhead's ass! XD

[shmuel]

Though Shmarya has certainly beaten me to the punch---you can't visit other blogs and websites in the middle of a machlokes like this!---and well done, too,if a "sidekick" may say so, I'd like to chime in, if I may. As usual, Archie makes a total ass out of himself. But that's ok! It's the 10th of Tevet and we are in a good mood, no food, drink or anything to put a damper on our happiness as we teach Archie right from wrong!
He writes, hilariously,
"It was well known in the Talmudic era that Karaites worshipped idols as part of their non-Jewish religious practice and they later became apostates en masse to both Islam and Xtianity when it suited them and later returned to being Karaites when the coast was clear."
Sure guy. Street urchin Shmuel here, with a shout out to a shmo who couldn't care less about history, encyclopedias, nuttin'. Don't be giving me facts to foul up my hashkafiz, says Archie. It's too confusing! Poor Archie is so poorly schooled he doesn't even know that Ravina and Rav Ashi put the finishing touches on the Talmud Bavli at around the beginning of the 500's CE. And when did Anan ben David, founder of Karaism, live? Karaism was started at the beginning of the 8th century (700's)CE. So the Talmud was completed a full 200 years before the founding of Karaism! And there's poor Archie, trying to blow smoke up the ass of everyone who reads this, that the Talmud can make a comment about the Karaites. Before they even existed! Because Archie learned it. In Chulin! In YESHIVA! And if not for Shmarya correcting him about the Kutim/Samaritans (and not for one second are the Karaites involved in this), he still would be walking around, believing his own nonsense. Because he wants to set the record straight! Because I'm a street urchin! And I can quote encyclopedias all day long...it won't matter! Archie learned his information from his YESHIVA! ROTFLMAO!

[Archie Bunker]

Ok guys, you got me here. Perhaps I shouldn't try to multitask & argue while I'm distracted / on the phone.

I wasn't even thinking and made a fool out of myself over the Samaritans, although they do have many beliefs that are similar to the Karaites. I did know the difference once upon a time and now feel like a fool caught in a fog.

However, Maimonides in Mamrim holds that later Karaites are tinokos shenishbu (certainly not Amalekites). Some later authorities insist for other reasons that they are considered like gentiles unless they convert.

[Archie Bunker]

"Rabbis explain their failure by blaming that failure on "blindness" caused by God, for reasons known only to God."

Shmarya's lack of faith is striking here.

In other words he doesn't believe in "hester panim", "andralemusya" and other items that are imposed against sechel and the course of nature.

The Chofetz Chaim was asked to curse Hitler in 1933 but refused saying he couldn't interfere in this case. Shmarya would lambast him if he could prove the story is true. Shmarya of course "knows" better than the holy Chofetz Chaim.

According to SHamrya's "logic", no one should keep any mitzvos of chok either like kashruth & shaatnez since we don't know all the reasons behind it.

[shmuel]

OK, Archie. We accept your apology. Just stay off the phone and stop looking for a full-time job while you're posting. This stuff is IMPORTANT.
One point at a time:
1. You wrote:
"I should add that the Chofetz Chaim noted Rishonim on Nach who say that those among us who behave in the manner of Shmarya, descend from the Amalekites who snuck into Israel with the Erev Rav (The "mixed multitude" of over 2 million people of various races and ethnicities that included escaped convicts from ancient Egyptian jails)."
Not sure I understand why the Amalekites had to "sneak in" to Israel. They were living very close to it, if not inside it, for the whole time we were in Egypt. Why the sudden need to "sneak in"? Were there Israeli tax agents at the border, asking everyone to open their luggage and declare their videos, dvds, computers, and whatever else yeshiva guys tried to smuggle in in those days?

2. You wrote:
"The behavior of the hidden Amalekites is described as attacking anything connected to the Torah, the rabbis and the teaching of the rabbis."
Nu? So we've finally proven to you that Karaites did that, and continue to do so, for the past 1200 years or so, give or take a century. According to you, they should be Amalekites, or in the geder of Amalekites. Now you're quoting me a Rambam who calls them tinokos shenishbu. Are you right, or is the Rambam right? I need to know. Can't complete my fast without an answer.

[Archie Bunker]

SHmarya, are you sleeping?

The Spinker Rebbe and some of his followers were arrested by the Feds today and there is an alleged case of Chabad incest in suburban Detroit. Both parents were arrested.

[avi]

"Karaism was started at the beginning of the 8th century (700's)CE. So the Talmud was completed a full 200 years before the founding of Karaism!"

See Pesachim, 117a
"The 'Kerai' add " etc
Rashi: The baalei Mikra add.

This may not be a valid reference to the actual Karaites. ( it could be a reference to another group).

However, some do believe that the Saducees morphed into the Karaites. ( Anan ben David, notwithstanding)

Can anyone shed light on the different sects and their differences?
1. Jod'anim or Jodganim.
2. Makrites or Magrites.
3. Akhbarites.
4. Abn Amronites or Tiflisites.
5. Balbekites.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm

Regards,

Avi

[A reader]

" by stating as fact that the Haredi Jews suffered far worse than Jews who married out, it does not follow that I suggest that we should marry out any more than my stating as fact that Jews suffered far worse than their murderers suggest that I recommend we become murderers!"

Barry, you are wrong on several accounts. Your bizarre attempt at syllogism is confusing at best, but to address the matter at hand, first, I will extract the passage in question from where you originally wrote it, in its original context.

"The most painful aspect of the Holocaust for Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and leaving for USA or Palestine or for abandoning their faith and intermarrying. "

This shows rather clearly that you are equating those various forms of advice by the rabbis (to not leave, to not marry out, to not abandon the faith), which were heeded by those haredim who suffered. My stance is regardless of who suffered more or who suffered less, but now you are taking this on as an additional qualifier.

The "Jews who married out" of Judaism didn't suffer any more or less from the Holocaust, so the original syllogism you present becomes rather bizarre. For one thing, the Nazis considered a person Jewish even if one grandparent was Jewish, no matter what religion the person in question practiced, so a Jew marrying out at the onset of the holocaust in order to save his life, didn't save anything at all. Secondly, those "Jews who married out" by ignoring the advice of their rabbis (not to mention the advice of the Torah, the prophets, and mostly any Jewish commentator's opinion since Sinai), if they don't fall into that first category I just described, and if you mean Jews who did so before the Holocaust, now must fall into another category. Did they leave Judaism in order to escape the suffering that Europe's Jews experienced? Or did they marry out because Judaism wasn't important to them to begin with so they married someone of another faith they fell in love with? On either account, you are saying that by doing so, they caused a life of non-suffering, to live as a Jew with no continuation of Jewish heritage to his children but who wouldn't be killed off in the Holocaust, and that he is to be applauded by not following the advice of his rabbi? Intermarrying or abandoning the faith, are not mere questions of a given rabbi's opinion. There is a stark contrast here between these concepts and the idea of simply moving to another country or location. This is a matter of opinion of a given rabbi. The ruling to not intermarry or not abandon faith is rather universal in Torah Judaism.

According to your present logic, we could present a hypothesis that says, Jews have suffered in their history. People who weren't Jews or who left the faith did not suffer the way that Jews have, therefore it was wrong for rabbis to tell the Jews to remain Jews and proves they are fallible since Judaism is no protection from suffering at the hands of the enemies of the Jews, and therefore the haredi philosophy is proven false. This logic is appalling, wouldn't you agree?

And on the point that you make that hareidim suffered more than reform, zionist, etc, do you have statistics to back this up? Without presenting evidence, it comes off as a bigoted accusation, which I don't think you were intending, but which others on this site do intend.

[janitor]

I have covered this a while ago. Check out my site.

[Lev]

Shmuel, without ad hominem attacks, I am NOT right.
Source quoted by me, A.I. Solzhenitsyn, always acknowledged that Russia is a hell-hole, that Peter the "Great" was a sick maniac, that it is RUSSIANS fault for everything bad that happen to them, but no "pulverisation".
Pogroms happened in what now Ukraine, Poland, Moldavia, etc.
Tibi, I understand the extent of a tragedy but, I think, Teitelbaum had other things going before the War...

[Yochanan Lavie]

Don't some authorities say that Amalek no longer exists as an ethnic group, thanks to invaders such Sennechareb the king of Assyria (Ashur) and others? They certainly don't exist today. Those authorities say that Amalek is now an ideology- of Judaeophobia and murder. I have strong disagreements with many Jews, but I would almost never call another Jew an Amalekite. That is sordid.

(Almost never- the Neuterei Karta who support Islamofacism are my exception. Not because of their lifestyle, but because they have joined forces with murderers, like the Kapos before them).

[Isa]

Titlebum is like a Jim Jones who exhorts his followers to drink Koolaide but yet does not do so himself.
So too he exhorts his followers to not go to the evil (Palestine, USA, etc take your pick) but yet, scoots away to safety the first chance he gets.

[janitor]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071219/METRO02/712190357

[Shimon]

ELIEZER ( LOUIS ) Kestenbaum was also arrested with the rabbi of spinka as being a part of the money laundering team. Kestenbaum is the president of the ODA organization in Williamsburg brooklyn NY

[janitor]

check out my site for more massive fraud involving spinka of boro park. busha vecharpa..

[shmuel]

"Don't some authorities say that Amalek no longer exists as an ethnic group, thanks to invaders such Sennechareb the king of Assyria (Ashur) and others? They certainly don't exist today. Those authorities say that Amalek is now an ideology- of Judaeophobia and murder. I have strong disagreements with many Jews, but I would almost never call another Jew an Amalekite. That is sordid." --Yochanan Lavie
Right. 'Nuff said.

[Barry]

A reader. Let me try to be more precise:

"The most painful aspect of the Holocaust for Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and leaving for USA or Palestine, lands which the Nazis never reached. The Haredim even suffered disproportionally compared to those descendants in Germany of mainly Reform Jews who had married out and abandoned their faith in the 19th century (the so called Mischling who through persecuted, largely survived the war, many having served in the Wehrmacht)."

I have already stressed that failure to predict the Holocaust in the 1930's until it was too late was perfectly human. Rabbi Wasserman was as human as Neville Chamberlain. Those Reform Jews who abandoned their faith in the 19th century, like the Jews who left for the Americas and Palestine did not 'forsee' the extent of the Holocaust. Even those German Jews who left between 1933 and 1939 did not appreciate the calamity to come. The Jews who fell into Hitlers hands after 1941 were not any stupider than those that did not. Neither were they particularly cursed or punished by God for not becoming Christians, sufficiently zionist or for wearing funny clothes. They just happened to be in the worst possible place at the worst possible time in unforseeable circumstance of the cross hairs of genocidal maniacs. Why did the Jews of Britain survive? Because of 20 miles of salt water. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

[Barry]

A reader. Let me try to be more precise:
"The most painful aspect of the Holocaust for Haredim is that they suffered disproportionally by not ignoring their rabbis and leaving for USA or Palestine, lands which the Nazis never reached. The Haredim even suffered disproportionally compared to those descendants in Germany of mainly Reform Jews who had married out and abandoned their faith in the 19th century (the so called Mischling who through persecuted, largely survived the war, many having served in the Wehrmacht)."

[Barry]

have already stressed that failure to predict the Holocaust in the 1930's until it was too late was perfectly human. Rabbi Wasserman was as human as Neville Chamberlain. Those Reform Jews who abandoned their faith in the 19th century, like the Jews who left for the Americas and Palestine did not 'forsee' the extent of the Holocaust. Even those German Jews who left between 1933 and 1939 did not appreciate the calamity to come. The Jews who fell into Hitlers hands after 1941 were not any stupider than those that did not. Neither were they particularly cursed or punished by God for not becoming Christians, sufficiently zionist or for wearing funny clothes. They just happened to be in the worst possible place at the worst possible time in unforseeable circumstance of the cross hairs of genocidal maniacs. Why did the Jews of Britain survive? Because of 20 miles of salt water. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

[Barry]

I have already stressed that failure to predict the Holocaust in the 1930's until it was too late was perfectly human. Rabbi Wasserman was as human as Neville Chamberlain. Those Reform Jews who abandoned their faith in the 19th century, like the Jews who left for the Americas and Palestine did not 'forsee' the extent of the Holocaust. Even those German Jews who left between 1933 and 1939 did not appreciate the calamity to come. The Jews who fell into Hitlers hands after 1941 were not any stupider than those that did not. Neither were they particularly cursed or punished by God for not becoming Christians, sufficiently zionist or for wearing funny clothes. They just happened to be in the worst possible place at the worst possible time in unforseeable circumstance of the cross hairs of genocidal maniacs.