Rabbis Stonewall on Humane Slaughter

The JTA reports:

Joe Regenstein, a professor of food science at Cornell University, advises Jewish groups and the meat industry on issues of animal welfare. He is part of a two-person negotiating team that is working to develop guidelines for humane practices amenable to the two dozen or so fervently Orthodox rabbis who are responsible for the glatt kosher industry.

A year ago, he says, the two sides reached consensus.

"They agreed to put it in writing," he says. "I am still waiting for that document."

That's no surprise to those of us who follow the kosher meat industry and the rabbis who supervise it. I told Regenstein then and in the year before that the rabbis would not come through.

What can we do about it?

Well, we could choose to eat humanely produced kosher meat, but this is a hard to find commodity and those producing it are not always, shall we say, truly interested in humane slaughter:

Rachel Wiesenfeld, who owns [Wise Organic Pastures] with her husband and son, says that as far as she's concerned, all kosher slaughter is humane. But when Whole Foods offered to carry their chickens if they were certified by Steritech, a company that verifies humane food production methods, the Wiesenfelds quickly agreed.

"Everyone was into this humane, humane, humane, so we went along with it as well," she says.

Understand this well. The owner of Wise Organic believes this is humane kosher slaughter.

I'm truly sorry to say this but, as things now stand, your only true option if you care about humane slaughter and humane growing of chickens, cattle and other kosher food animals is to go veg. That shouldn't be the case. Sadly, however, it is.

Comments

[yonah loriner]

shmarya give it up ur not gonna stop the world from eating meat!! we all want the stake not the slaughter!!!!!!

[yona loriner]

shmarya give it up ur not gonna stop the world from eating meat!! we all want the stake not the slaughter!!!!!!

[yona loriner]

shmarya give it up ur not gonna stop the world from eating meat!! we all want the stake not the slaughter!!!!!!

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Fellow citizens!
I can't stand this any longer and feel I must do something to correct the particularly gruesome barbaric practice still allowed in our modern civilized world.

Feeling outraged to the deapth of my heart and the core of my very being by the continued injustice I am founding PETWaI (People for Ethical Treatment of Worms and Insects)

I demand the boycott on free range grown organic fowl no matter how "humanely" it was decapitated.

Tolerance of cruelty against those who are weak and can't defend themselves should not be condoned in a civilized society.

Free range chickens are allowed to swallow worms and insects alive.

This clearly violates the "rights" of these species and looks no less gruesome than the shchita in the PETA video.

In fact the organic free range farmers and others who allow this flagrant disregard of the rights of worms should be tried and convicted or allowing and in fact directly sponsoring wormicide!

PS. Disgustingly gruesome video covertly taken by a dedicated PETWaI (People for Ethical Treatment of Worms and Insects) activist of an organic farmer helping his chicken commit wormicide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrv5cUt8BiM
:-)

[SJ]

howabout just to not care about kashrut? Rabbis who do kosher supervision will have to get real jobs! XD

[lakewoodshmuck]

shmarya
ther is a worm in your head eating the veg called your brain

[yidandahalf]

G-d forbid Shmarya should give the veggies any airtime. This must surely be above any earlier perceived transgressions on his part.
It would be great if everyone who read Faiiled Messiah would become vegan. It's unreasonable to entertain such ideas. However, I do entertain the desire that everyone who reads Failled Messiah will become vehemently opposed to the alleged mafioso of crown heights

[JB]

At least Shmarya is willing to analyze and question the things you dolts won't even discuss intelligently.

[Yossi]

Steritech certifies cleanliness and food safety. It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with animal abuse or humane slaughter.

[Shmarya]

They do Humane Slaughter audits:
http://www.steritech.com/site/12_95_47.cfm

That said, I doubt they are able to certify humane growing and handling or deal with the special requirements of kosher slaughter.

That, combined with Wise's attitude, leads me to believe Wise is no longer an option for those of us who want humanely slaughtered kosher meat.

[Anon]

Shmarya, do you eat meat? If so, which brands?

[suffernyenta]

a good idea. every one should say if they eat meat or not and if so which brands even if they only read here. this is a good idea - and no more hiding behind anon. just say what you eat truthfully.
so i'll start. I DON'T EAT ANY MEAT ever.

[Conservative apikoris]

You know, I sued to read these histories of old-time Jews on the American frontier during the colonial period. (The American frontier back then was somewhere between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh PA), and these guys supposedly got instructions from their rabbis about how to shecht chickens, and that's what they did. They did it themselves, they were able to do it, they needed no kosher certification bureaucracy.

Now, if you read "The Omnivore's dilemma," you can also see that the author was able to learn pretty quickly how to humanely kill a checken at an organic farm where he worked for a while. Not kosher, but it does show that you don't need years of specialized training to kill humanely.

I've seen chciekn shechted in a non-industrial setting (the bedouin market in Beer-Sheva during the winter of 1972.) It didn't look like it was that difficult or complicated. The shochet held the chicn, exposed the neck, and chick-chok, the customer had dinner. No muss, no fuss, and no apparent distress on the part of the bird. (Well, the bird had to be gutted in inspected and the feathers removed.

So why do we need professional shochtim and kosher supervision bureaucracies? We can do it ourselves. Teach each other the basic rules of how to do it, and then. just go to the Farmer, buy some chickens, and slit their necks and be done with it. Sure, the results might not be acceptable to the rabbis, but when you come to think of it, their complicated rules may well be a racket to ensure that the masses need to buy from the kosher food industry and thus support the kosher certification bureaucracy.

[Isa]

Wishek, North Dakota ~1900 to ~1930
My grandmother in law was born there, had a Jewish community with even a rabbi that schech meat there. As the story goes, the rabbi wanted his daughters to marry Jews so he moved away to Duluth(?). Now the community was left without a source of meat except in the winter time where it could be shipped in (this is before refrigeration) as a result the community resorted to eating treif. Yes there are all sorts of rules regarding scheching cows, but fowl is quite a different story, I have seen it done. Sharp knife without nicks, not technically difficult at all. The rabbi could have taught the most pious person in that community how to do it,but he did not, lest he get 'competition'I suppose. BTW his daughters never did marry.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, do you eat meat? If so, which brands?

I stopped eating meat because of the first Rubashkin scandal.

[Rach]

It seems some of these "frum" Jews are not only missing the point but they are would rather keep their “heads in the sand.” Shmarya is not advocating vegetarianism; at least I do not think he is. I think he is merely pointing out that the concept of eating kosher meat is partially based on not killing an animal in a cruel manor. When a frum Jew is sarcastic or cavalier about eating meat it only reflects their ignorance. They should be very concerned and appalled about the disturbing slaughtering practices at kosher slaughter houses. Do you think Hashem wants you to make a bracha over a burger from a cow that went though unnecessary suffering before it died?

According to The Humane Slaughter Act, passed in 1958, animals should be stunned into unconsciousness prior to their slaughter to ensure a quick, relatively painless death. This rule does NOT apply to the kosher meat market because it is a religious practice.

How much more money do you pay for kosher food? Are you paying a premium for kosher meat because it is under the guise that was killed more humanely? Maybe it was centuries ago. With the advent of the modern stun gun, it appears that kosher slaughtering is both barbaric and archaic. Why do Jews so passively trust their rabbis? Everyone is so skeptical of politicians but rabbis get the green light. Why?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"I'm truly sorry to say this but, as things now stand, your only true option if you care about humane slaughter and humane growing of chickens, cattle and other kosher food animals is to go veg. That shouldn't be the case. Sadly, however, it is."

That's your opinion, not a fact. You're spinning Rachel Wiesenfeld statement on kosher slaughter. Her statement may well have been more political than anything, just as most Orthodox rabbis publicly stated the beef from Postville was all kosher, even though in private some had quite different views.

The consumer should judge each producer on the basis of facts directly related to the products, not political positions. If the Wise chickens are raised and slaughtered humanely, they are a product I want to purchase and support.

[Peter]

That said, I doubt they are able to certify humane growing and handling or deal with the special requirements of kosher slaughter.

Steritech humane certification is OK by Whole Foods. Are your doubts based on actual information, or is it just a guess? (Links to Whole Foods' humane standards information follows.)

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/meat-poultry/qualitystandards.html
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/issues/animalwelfare/cattle.pdf

[Ben Qor'ha]

אצל תלמודיים עקב ויתור ענין חמלה בשחיטה
כל בעלי פרכוס עוף שאפילו לא רפרף

[Ben Qor'ha]

This from the hilkhot shechita of the karaim:
with the rabbanites, due to them having given up on the matter of compassion in shechita....
אצל תלמודיים-עקב ויתור ענין חמלה בשחיטה - כל בעלי פרכוס עוף שאפילו לא רפרף
אלא גפו ולא כשכש אלא זנבו ובהמה שכשכשה בזנבה
בד'א בהיותה מסוכנת ובשר כוס שממהרים
וגוזרים על השוחט לשחוט את הבהמה
המסוכנת למען לא תמות מיתת עצמה ללא שחיטה
מותרים לשחיטה ואצלנו הרי זה נבלה הן מבחינת חמלה הן מבחינת אי אפשרות
צאת הדם הנשחט כראוי מן הגוף שאיננו מסוגל
להתפרכס היטב
maybe theirs is a more appropriate shechita. we do not have any here! unfortunately!

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
If I remember correctly it takes just 3 months to be certified as a shochet.
Why don't all the folks here concerned about these issues do that and Shmaryah in particular so he can continue his high protein low carb Atkins diet without feeling bad about his chickens having their heads cut off by someone else in a much more cruel way than he himself can apparently do.:-)

[Anon]

--I stopped eating meat because of the first Rubashkin scandal.--

Rubashkin is not the only meat producer. BTW Rubashkin is, I believe, the only kosher meat producer that has their own slaughterhouse. All others conduct their production in a third-party slaughterhouse where they just get certain space and/or time. Those slaughterhouses would apply the same standards to their kosher runs as they do to their non-kosher runs with the exception of using the stun gun.

[suffernyenta]

ariel shmariel, what drivel. write something compelling for fucks sake.

[suffernyenta]

" rubashkin is not the only ..." go back to watching cnn. vei, vei, vei.

[yona loriner]

shmarya why dont u eat the nonkosher brands? ur biting ur nose to spite thier face???????????

[Adam Smith]

Would you stop eating bread because they baker bakes out of greed rather than benevolence, or go shoeless because the shoemaker works for his own self-interest, and not the betterment of mankind?

The fact is that Wise slaughters chickens in a certified-humane fashion for one reason only: because it saw a niche market to fill, and an opportunity for profit. But does that really matter if the chickens are, in fact, slaughtered properly? Does the humanely slaughtered chicken care whether the motive for his type of slaughter is altruism or money? And the fact is that, according to any factual analysis, the chickens are -- in fact -- slaughtered humanely.

Stop expecting people to conform to your insane ideals about how people should act. Because no one is going to meet that standard. And start judging people based on how people do act. You'll probably be both happier person and a more enlightened commentator.

[Michael]

what about Empire chicken? is there a problem with them? I've never seen a negative post about them on this blog yet.

[An Eternity Turns]

Ariel -

You don't have to agree with PETA, but come on. Making sure that animals are treated humanely is not unreasonable.

Why do you find the issue of humane treatment of animals something to mock?

It's not very becoming of a rabbi.

[An Eternity Turns]

Ariel -

You don't have to agree with PETA, but come on. Making sure that animals are treated humanely is not unreasonable.

Why do you find the issue of humane treatment of animals something to mock?

It's not very becoming of a rabbi.

[satmars are scum]

Yoel Teitelbaum; liar, traitor,and charlatan

Satmar Rebbe and the Holocaust

check my blog

[Shmarya]

Stop expecting people to conform to your insane ideals about how people should act. Because no one is going to meet that standard. And start judging people based on how people do act. You'll probably be both happier person and a more enlightened commentator.

Let's see if your enlightened mind can grasp this:

1. Wise is certified by a company that, as a sideline, not as a main part of their business, assures that clients meet the USDA's understanding of Humane slaughter.

2. That USDA understanding of humane slaughter EXCLUDES everything done by the shochet or even his non-Jewish assistant during the slaughter process – even using a meat hook to rip out the throat of a fully conscious animal.

3. The USDA does this because it has, at the urging of various Bush appointees, decided to define the religious exemption very broadly.

4. For Wise to be certified humane by an agency specializing in animal welfare would raise the bar way beyond the now lowered USDA bar.

5. Wise did not choose to go that route.

6. It's owner's understanding of humane slaughter leaves much to be desired.

7. Therefore, the owner herself cannot be personally relied on.

8. So, if one cares about humane slaughter, I would not buy Wise until Wise owners can clearly state the ripping the throat out of a live animal with a meat hook is wrong – and until the audits done on their processing are made completely public.

[yidandahalf]

Let's make it easy for the doubters, let's bring it back to basics. WATCH THE VIDEO PEOPLE. That's all you have to do. After you watch it in its long version and without interruption come back and post. That is really all you need to do. If you don't watch the video, then refrain from posting because YOU REALLY DON'T GET IT. All this alte yehshiva kaker rhetoric is BESIDE THE POINT. Wake up!

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
An Eternity Turns says:

Ariel -

You don't have to agree with PETA, but come on. Making sure that animals are treated humanely is not unreasonable.

Why do you find the issue of humane treatment of animals something to mock?

It's not very becoming of a rabbi.

Posted by: An Eternity Turns | December 03, 2007 at 11:37 PM

PETA supports and finances terrorism against humans. It is made up of bunch of eccentric people trying to impose unreasonable standards they came up with (but don't necessarily hold by themselves) on the rest of the society.
They deserve to be rudely mocked, but since I am usually a very polite
man and find the whole biz of mocking people unsettling I'll let Penn and Teller do it for me by presenting stunning video evidence of PETA itself hurting animals and humans and its leaders stating their ultimate goals:
The truth about PETA "Bullshit!" by Penn and Teller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY
before jumping on the bandwagon to protest or ban something one needs to research who is behind it and if the issue really has merit otherwise you are just 1 step away from doing something as stupid as participating in banning of Dihydrogen Monoxide
Penn And Teller Get Hippies To Sign Dihydrogen Monoxide Banning Petition http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw

PS. Animals should be treated humanely not because they have some inherent rights but because Torah commends us to treat them humanely. Yet the Torah has many commandments and their observance needs to be balanced. To wash the shochets knife with ones own tears instead of water (as reported in some Baal Shem Tov stories) wouldn't work on a large scale and to raise standards of animal treatment would also raise the prices of kosher meat and thus hurt poor Jews.
As Shmaryah and PETA want to impose these standards perhaps they should also set up funds to help people pay for increased prices of kosher food.

[Shmarya]

Funny. Rubashkin rips the throats out of live, fully conscious animals and Ariel Sokolovsky says that is both humane and kosher.

If Ariel is correct, Jews should stop keeping kosher altogether.

If he is wrong, Jews should force firing of the rabbis who endorsed Rubashkin cruelty.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Rubashkin does, Wise does not, and your attempt to link the two seems weak.

[Shmarya]

Wise has a weak 'certification' as humane. It's owner does not have her heart in the right place. All I'm saying is that Wise should not be relied on. It's better than Rubashkin, but the line separating Wise from Rubashkin is thin.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
I haven't mentioned Rubashkin at all.
If it were up to PETA it would have Rubashkin , Empire , Hebrew National and Wise etc. banned.
Bunch of stupid hypocrites :
http://www.petakillsanimals.com

PS. As long as we are not talking about this issue from the Torah point of view it ultimately becomes a matter of taste as I have tried to point out above in my comment about "PETWaI protesting against wormicide".
I don't believe that PETA's taste or your taste Shmaryah is inherently better from the Torah point of view than the current standards of kosher animal slaughter. I also don't believe that a bunch of eccentric rich celeberties who support PETA should be able to force changes in laws and standards that will ultimately hurt the poor Jews thru higher prices for kosher meat even as they might make some animals a little bit more comfortable in the last moments of their lives and some humans feeling better about themselves for being able to impose their tastes on the rest of us.
For the likes of PETA so called higher standards are merely stepping stones to having kosher slaughter totaly banned as is already the case in some European countries:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0702/euro_kosher.asp

PETWaI (People for Ethical Treatment of Worms and Insects) shall prevail!:-)

[Shmarya]

Simply ignorant, Ariel.

[Rach]

"PETA supports and finances terrorism against humans. It is made up of bunch of eccentric people trying to impose unreasonable standards they came up with (but don't necessarily hold by themselves) on the rest of the society.
They deserve to be rudely mocked, but since I am usually a very polite
man and find the whole biz of mocking people unsettling..."

Funny, I know plenty of people who would say the same thing about "orthodox Jews." You cannot abandon a concept because some people hijacked the message took it to the extreme. Maybe you do not think wearing wool tzitzits, long black coats or striemels in the hot summer is a bit extreme? What about peeling all your vegetables for Passover in order to avoid eating chametz or having kosher for Passover soap? Having a rabbi cheek your wife’s underwear is normal? Before you throw stones over at PETA, (I am not a member and I am not a vegetarian), you may want to look in the mirror at your own religion that has moved further to the right.

"Funny. Rubashkin rips the throats out of live, fully conscious animals and Ariel Sokolovsky says that is both humane and kosher."

If a cow was knocked unconscious, like at non-kosher slaughter houses, there would not be fully a conscious animal, with its thoat ripped out, struggling to get up. At least knock out the animal before you rip out its esophagus!

[An Eternity Turns]

"PETA supports and finances terrorism against humans. It is made up of bunch of eccentric people trying to impose unreasonable standards they came up with (but don't necessarily hold by themselves) on the rest of the society.
They deserve to be rudely mocked, but since I am usually a very polite
man and find the whole biz of mocking people unsettling I'll let Penn and Teller do it for me . . .

Didn't I start my comment with, "You don't have to agree with PETA . . . "?

Penn and Teller also did a segment on why the Bible is BS. So, just know that they look at you and me the same way they look at PETA-followers and the H20 hippies. (Which is not to say that I don't like Penn and Teller, since I do.)

Animals should be treated humanely not because they have some inherent rights but because Torah commends us to treat them humanely.

So why are you mocking it?

Yet the Torah has many commandments and their observance needs to be balanced.

The Conservative movement takes a lot of heat for holding such a position. (Just an aside, not to get into that subject.)

To wash the shochets knife with ones own tears instead of water (as reported in some Baal Shem Tov stories) wouldn't work on a large scale

If strictly observing the rules of shechita won't work on a mass scale, then maybe it's an indication that shechita was not intended to be done on a mass scale.

. . . and to raise standards of animal treatment would also raise the prices of kosher meat and thus hurt poor Jews.

On the scale of things, how much would this hurt poor Jews? Meat is not the only food available. Many people live either without meat or eating very little. There are plenty of kosher non-meat foods available (including eggs and dairy - see this is not a PETA rant), which will enable anyone of any economic situation to eat healthy either no or low-meat. Our anscestors, whilst poor, made do with very small amounts of meat - sometimes only eating meat once a week, or on special occasions. What? Now we're so much better than our anscestors and we're entitled to more than they? They scrimped and saved, but our generation shouldn't go without luxuries?

As Shmaryah and PETA want to impose these standards perhaps they should also set up funds to help people pay for increased prices of kosher food.

Actually, you should, since you seem to hold that everyone should have meat whenever they wish. Start a fund like those for weddings and yeshiva study if this matter is so important to you.

There are many factors (societal, economic, political) which hurt the poor, Jewish or not, and an increase in the price of kosher meat would be among the least problematic of the things they have to deal with.

[An Eternity Turns]

For the likes of PETA so called higher standards are merely stepping stones to having kosher slaughter totaly banned as is already the case in some European countries:

Again, come on.

As you well know, "the likes of PETA" would ideally like to see all slaughter banned - not just shechita. Don't you remember the big dust-up they had with KFC not too long ago? The last time I checked, KFC didn't stand for Kosher Fried Chicken. Burger King was also a PETA target a few years ago.

When they go after KFC, BK, and Wendy's they're just vegetarian kooks, but when they target a kosher slaughterhouse, suddenly they are anti-Semites out to ban shechita? Much of their efforts also deal with animal testing and animal ingredients in non-food products (they leaned very heavily on Gillette years ago, and they have a big thing against Proctor and Gamble). Where does this fit in on their worldwide anti-shechita agenda?

And yes, PETA has also publicized complaints regarding Halal slaughter in Middle Eastern countries, too. I found this while looking up "PETA" and "Halal" (it looks like a PETA website, to me):

http://www.savethesheep.com/f-ausliveexport.asp

So, when it comes to religious slaughter, they don't just pick on the Jews.

These are animal rights groups. Animal rights groups oppose eating animals. Shechita is animal slaughter, so they will oppose it - just as they do regular slaughter.

[C-Girl]

Eternity, thanks for your totally on-the-mark comments. The link you gave for "save the sheep" is actually in response to really sick, twisted abuses of sheep on Australian farms. Sheep have really fluffy backsides, so in order to keep them clean so that the wool doesn't get disgusting, the ranchers were hacking off part of their bottoms. Apparently, a large enough proportion of the sheep healed sufficiently to make the practice viable, in their opinion. the ones who didn't do so well either lived with massive infections, both microbial and insect-infested, or died.

And so what did they do with the sheep once their wool-bearing days came to an end? They sold them as livestock to countries that would take them- as in shipping them *live* from Australia to Egypt so that they could be slaughtered as halal. Again, enough managed to live that they considered it a viable business decision (besides, no other countries wanted these sheep- their animal welfare standards, well, existed. And what else do you do with a gazillion old sheep?)

Awareness of this situation led to boycotts of Australian wool by knitters (you don't wanna piss off the knitters, man...) and led to changes in policy and a phasing out of the practice.

Y'know Ariel, psychologists say that indifference to the suffering of animals is pathological and that people who are involved in sadistic crimes toward others often have a history of cruelty to animals. Just sayin'.

[Rach]

"Y'know Ariel, psychologists say that indifference to the suffering of animals is pathological and that people who are involved in sadistic crimes toward others often have a history of cruelty to animals. Just sayin'."

i totally agree! it makes me question the rabbis who were hovering over cows stuggling with their throats ripped out. It seems less crues to shot them in the head, but of course that would not make the cow kosher.

[C-Girl]

From the American Humane Society:

"...research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder."

Cruelty, for these purposes, is defined as both active acts of violence and/or passive behavior, such as indifference and neglect. Mahatma Gandhi is quoted as saying, "the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals."

[C-Girl]

sorry, should read "indifference to animal suffering".

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H

Y'know Ariel, psychologists say that indifference to the suffering of animals is pathological and that people who are involved in sadistic crimes toward others often have a history of cruelty to animals. Just sayin'.

Posted by: C-Girl | December 05, 2007 at 04:45 PM

It is so presumptious of you to assume that I am indifferent to the suffering of either humans or animals when I have shown very early on in this thread that I even care about worms and insects (see my comment here : http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/12/rabbis-stonewal.html#comment-92037138
to whose welfare you, Shmaryah and PETA are so callously indifferent.:-)

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H

There are many factors (societal, economic, political) which hurt the poor, Jewish or not, and an increase in the price of kosher meat would be among the least problematic of the things they have to deal with.

Posted by: An Eternity Turns | December 05, 2007 at 03:22 PM

When one is commanded to eat meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov it adds up.

I don't feel that we must have a knee-jerk agreement to standards pushed by people like this:
7 Things You Didn't Know About PETA

1) PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group’s overall goal as “total animal liberation.” This means no meat, no milk, no zoos, no circuses, no wool, no leather, no hunting, no fishing, and no pets (not even seeing-eye dogs). PETA is also against all medical research that requires the use of animals.

2) Despite its constant moralizing about the “unethical” treatment of animals by restaurant owners, grocers, farmers, scientists, anglers, and countless other Americans, PETA has killed over 14,400 dogs and cats at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. During 2005, PETA put to death over 90 percent of the animals it collected from members of the public.

3) PETA has given tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and other violent criminals. This includes a 2001 donation of $1,500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF), an FBI-certified “domestic terrorist” group responsible for dozens of firebombs and death threats. During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory. In his sentencing recommendation, a federal prosecutor implicated PETA president Ingrid Newkirk in that crime. And PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich told an animal rights convention in 2001 that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”

4) PETA activists regularly target children as young as six years old with anti-meat and anti-milk propaganda, often waiting outside their schools to intercept them as they walk to and from class-without notifying parents. One piece of kid-targeted PETA literature tells small children: “Your Mommy Kills Animals!” PETA brags that its messages reach over 2 million children every year, including thousands reached by e-mail without the permission of their parents. One PETA vice president told the Fox News Channel’s audience: “Our campaigns are always geared towards children, and they always will be.”

5) PETA has used a related organization, the PETA Foundation, to fund the misnamed Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM), a deceptive animal rights group that promotes itself as an unbiased source of medical and nutritional information. PCRM's president also serves as president of the PETA Foundation.

6) PETA runs campaigns seemingly calculated to offend religious believers. One entire PETA website is devoted to the claim-despite ample evidence to the contrary-that Jesus Christ was a vegetarian. PETA holds protests at houses of worship, even suing one church that tried to protect its members from Sunday-morning harassment. Its billboards taunt Christians with the message that hogs “died for their sins.” PETA insists, contrary to centuries of rabbinical teaching, that the Jewish ritual of kosher slaughter shouldn't be allowed. And its infamous “Holocaust on Your Plate” campaign crassly compares the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide with farm animals.

7) PETA has repeatedly attacked research foundations like the March of Dimes, the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, and the American Cancer Society, because they support animal-based research that might uncover cures for birth defects and life-threatening diseases. PETA president Ingrid Newkirk has said that “even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we would be against it.”
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/article_detail.cfm?article=134

who clearly care more so about their egos than either humans or animals.

[C-Girl]

Ariel, you might notice that no one here has been defending PETA. Your anti-PETA diatribes have absolutely no relevance and make no point other than that you are unable to consider at a message when you don't like the messenger. Allow me to jog your memory a little- "who is wise?...."

Unfortunately, a PETA rep was the only one around with a camera to catch what was going on those days at Agriprocessors. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But it means that the bunch at Agriprocessors got caught. And they didn't like it. Take PETA out of the picture and the facts stand on their own merit

People can live (longer, even) eating less meat and they can certainly live without it altogether. And no joy without basar can be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with flanken.

And finally, meat consumption has been linked to heart disease and pancreatic cancer and cured meat has been linked to pulmonary diseaes. Scientists are still arguing about whether eating meat contributes to dementia. Apparently, the carte blanche you say that Hashem has given comes with a few nasty surprises.

[An Eternity Turns]

It is so presumptious of you to assume that I am indifferent to the suffering of either humans or animals when I have shown very early on in this thread that I even care about worms and insects (see my comment here . . .

Yeah, Ariel, and that whole post was a spoof mocking animal welfare issues.

So, C-Girl's point stands and my original point stands.

When one is commanded to eat meat on Shabbat and Yom Tov it adds up.

Not entirely. There are a number of devout, Orthodox Jews who are vegetarians and they are not running afoul of halacha.

The "obligation" to eat meat is not applicable to those who do not like meat or those repulsed by meat. I would think that the majority of thoughtful people would be repulsed by the idea that the meat on their table was the result of cruelty. How much Shabbat Joy can it bring to your home to know that a creature needlessly suffered so you could have that brisket?

By way Ariel, didn't I state in my post something about our ancestors who, when poor, made use with very little meat - basically just eating it once a week or on special occasions? The implication was that those who can't afford to eat meat every day could do the same. Wouldn't that cover Shabbat and Yom Tov? (Plus, you're starting the fund to help them buy meat, right?)

As for the rest of your post, ONCE AGAIN, I will say that my original post said You don't have to agree with PETA . . . . So, WHY must you keep bringing up PETA?

I've known for many years that PETA does stupid things. They had the potential to be a positive force like the Humane Society or the many SPCAs, but they've messed that up with the nonsense they've been involved in.
(Not that all other organizations are free of nonsense - be they religious, political, etc.)

[yidandahalf]

"things you don't know about peta..."
Who cares about Peta? Or more to the point, apart from the rubashkin video, what have they done about factory farms or anything reasonable for that matter? Teaching the world to go veg? They are past lame. All they do is harrass hunters and save cats. I move we stop even bringing them up at all. I don't think they are useful to either side and they don't even know what the fucking Forward newspaper is.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
1)I rarely eat meat. Usually on Yom Tov and some chicken on Shabbat.
While I like the taste of chicken , turkey and meat I notice that when I eat more than the bare minimum I don't feel well.
2)It's hard for me to look at suffering of animals being slaughtered I also for some reason feel revulsion looking at the videos of surgery on humans.
I don't think that either of these reasons are enough to support various restrictions on animal slaughter from Torah point of view
as it allows otherwise cruel treatment of animals "le tzorech bnei adam"-for human benefit.
Thus what I see here are people including the owner of this blog some of the commenters and PETA among others wanting to impose various extra regulations on kosher meat producers that will no doubt raise prices of kosher meat which are already high enough to discourage many Jews from buying it (there are elderly Russian Jews who try to keep many mitzvot but are reluctant to buy kosher meat because it is so expensive
. (Shmaryah has already had a post about this and a possible solution of making non-glatt meat more available.)
Happy Hanuka!

[yidandahalf]

Tell the rabbis and all the religious bureaucrats who MAKE MONEY on every aspect of the benighted custom to give the poor meat starved souls coupons and vouchers or whatever they will find halachacly correct.
Then they will not go without and will have lots of meat to eat.
btw, ariel - your posts are going from bad to worse in the fast lane.