If at First You Don't Succeed, Lie and Lie Again – Aish HaTorah in the New Yorker

The New Yorker, of all places, has a brief profile of Aish HaTorah-New York City and its outreach program geared to wealthy executives who donate large sums of money to Aish – "(average: ten thousand dollars)". In this very brief piece, the Aish rabbi manages to mislead (okay, lie to) his student once and mislead the reporter once. First, the lie to the student:

“Maybe we can talk a little bit about Hanukkah,” [Rabbi Stuart] Shiff said.

“O.K.,” the executive said. “Seven candles?”

“Eight! We light eight candles to commemorate a miracle. What’s the miracle we’re commemorating?”

“I don’t know.”

“They found oil in a temple that was desecrated by the Syrian-Greek army,” Shiff began. He got as far as the eight days, and the executive interrupted. “Where did they get the idea in the first place? That’s my question—who wrote the book?”

“The Maccabees,” Shiff said. “It’s history.”

“Yeah,” the executive said. “History I can buy.”

Of course, the only books written by the Maccabbees or their supporters are 1 and 2 Maccabees and neither mention any "miracle of oil." No Jewish source even hints at such a "miracle" until hundreds of years later, and those sources are all rabbinic, not Hasmonean. (Parts 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5 .)

Now the lie to the reporter:

“We go everywhere,” Shiff said on the train. “We go to J. P. Morgan, Bear, Bloomberg, Goldman—and everybody is so different. It’s not about conforming to anything. That last guy, I think sometimes he thinks he’s not living up to my expectations of him. But I don’t have any expectations. My whole job is helping him to stay connected. We like questions.”

If Mr. Wealthy Executive were Mr. Poor Working Stiff Aish would have far more "expectations" of him. Why? Because, Mr. Wealthy Executive's money buys him a lot of leeway. Anyone who has spent significant time at Aish in Jerusalem knows that the amount of time spent of students varies with evidence of money and evidence of buying into the program. If you do not have evidence of money and if you have very real, challenging questions about the Aish presentation of Judaism, you won't last long at Aish. Conversely, that same student, full of probing questions and not buying the Aish spin, will last far longer if he or his family are wealthy. Aish actively weeds out nonconformists at all levels of their program. Anyone deemd to be "not Aish material" is quickly pushed out. This process is relentless and heartless.

Aish is built on deception. Rabbi Noach Weinberg has spent more than 40 years developing ways to "get" kids, to deceive them, to manipulate them, to trick them into observance. There is an oft repeated rumor about Rabbi Weinberg. He and his wife have lived separate lives for many years, in adjoining apartments. They are divorced in all but name. Both hush up the separation to protect Aish and its womens' school, EYHAT. I've  heard this from EYHAT students, from Aish students, from former BTs and from current "outreach professionals."

Rabbi Wienberg is a fraud, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman out to snatch the souls of your friends and your children. But don't worry. Even if he can't get your soul, he'll take your money – guaranteed.

Comments

[SJ]

"It’s not about conforming to anything"

From an Orthodox Jew?

BULL SHIT.

[Anonyguy]

Sounds like Shiff made an embarrassing mistake about non-canonical books of the Tanach. That's a "lie," huh? And your spin of what he meant by "expectations" makes Shiff a "liar," too?

Shmarya, you are utterly lacking in both intellectual honesty and empathy. And you're judging everyone else, and the supposed personal lives of others, right and left -- hilarious.

[Shmarya]

Aish has a very long history of using deception in outreach. The rest of what you write is foolish.

[R]

that's because if you didn't lie, then no one would conform t your crazy aishy ways.
I met someone who was aished and i have no idea what they teach there, but she was deffinately taught extreme stuff as if they are outright halachas.

[Archie Bunker]

It's easy to for someone with an agenda to cast the Aish operation in Manhattan as money grubbers who only seek those with 6 figure plus incomes. Who can afford to live in the City except for the very wealthy? It's predicted that in another 10 to 15 years, even Harlem will cease to exist as we know it and the entire Manhattan island will be an exclusive gentrified bastion for the rich only.

The rent for a luxury home in Minnesota will get you a shower stall in these here parts.

[Archie Bunker]

The question begs, is Aish Jerusalem one of the BT yeshivos where Shmarya made a pit stop? Does Shmarya speak from personal experience as to Rabbi Weinberg and his mission? Or is there there something else driving this like that Aish does not have their racial quota of Falashas?

Exactly what kinds of lies are alleged to have been employed by Rabbi Weinberg to "trick" kids into observance?

[Archie Bunker]

"Rabbi Wienberg is a fraud, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman out to snatch the souls of your friends and your children."

A statement like that is really over the top and is not credible.

Even if we blindly take Shmarya's word for it that Rabbi Weinberg uses some less than honest tactics, is Rabbi Weinberg the Devil? From what I have observed, Aish BTs are among the more normal ones when compared to other organizations like Leib Tropper's. They are not in any kind of trance induced by a cult leader. This is what passes for "snatching souls" in the hyperbole-land of Failed Messiah.

[Paul Freedman]

Marriage is a funny thing and it's not the best of ideas to make judgement from the outside, "adjoining apartments" is not all that different from "adjoining beds" or "separate bedrooms" which is the fate of many. Jerry Garcia, when told by one of his daughters that she was engaged, advised her that in his opinion, marriage could work, but had the best chance if the couple lived in "separate houses".

[rabbidw]

There were the same stories about Esther Jungreis and her husband/cousin. Divorce records are public. Check it out or do not publish. You should no better. Intelligent people talk about ideas. dumb people talk about other people. Shmarya, whatever else you might be, you are too intelligent to turn this space into a gossip column.

[Archie Bunker]

How about some balance from Shmarya & Neo-Conservaguy?

We've never seen an expose on anything like this. Here are two examples, the first, published today, being the only Conservative "yeshiva" high school:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932728.html

Maurice "Chico" Sabbah - a very wealthy Jew, the legitimacy of whose businesses has often been questioned - has invested more than $100 million in the boarding school. A resident of Greensboro, Sabbah passed away several months ago at the age of 77. He never agreed to give interviews, on the grounds that "I really don't consider myself newsworthy." A suit that was filed against the academy, on the grounds that it received dubious funding, was settled in 2005 in a settlement whose details have not been disclosed. In any case, Sabbah's monumental contribution is evident at every turn - in the extravagant building designed by Aaron Green, a protege of architect Frank Lloyd Wright; the state-of-the-art laboratories; "green" heating system; the laptop per child; oval-shaped tables designed for the 12-student classrooms, and display screens that answer to the touch of a finger. Every electronic gadget that money can buy exists in this institution. You can plug your iPod into the wall of the exercise rooms. It is impossible not to be impressed by the investment in this place.

The tuition is high. Four years cost some $100,000 per student. In any case, nearly 70 percent of the students do not pay full tuition.

Case #2:

$86,000 swindle admitted by rabbi

5-year sentence likely after plea
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 01/31/07
BY JAMES A. QUIRK
STAFF WRITER

MARLBORO — A $5,000 ring for his mistress. Private school tuition payments for his children. Vacations in Israel.

From July 2004 to July 2006, Peter Light, former chief rabbi of Congregation Ohev Shalom, the Marlboro Jewish Center, pilfered $86,000 from his congregation's coffers to pay for these and other personal expenses.

Now, under an agreement following his guilty plea Monday, Light is expected to be sentenced to five years in prison, according to the Monmouth County Prosecutor's Office.

Appearing Monday before Superior Court Judge Ira E. Kreizman, Light admitted stealing the money from the temple's discretionary fund. The fund, made up largely of donations, is used when a congregant in an unexpected crisis approaches the rabbi for help.

The fund is loosely monitored and set up specifically so a member can work one-on-one with the rabbi and keep personal problems from becoming common knowledge, temple members have said.

"By stealing from a charitable account established by the Marlboro Jewish Center, Light placed his selfish personal interests above the expectations and needs of the congregations he led," said Prosecutor Luis A. Valentin in a prepared statement. "This deliberate criminal conduct impeded the congregation's ability to serve those who required assistance."

Light was hired in Marlboro in 2004. He had been primary rabbi of Beth Shalom Synagogue in Memphis, Tenn., from 1990 to 2004.

Light abruptly resigned from the Jewish Center, at Wyncrest Road and School Road West, on June 30. He was not asked or made to resign, according to Jeff Sacks, president of the temple's board of trustees.

But just before his resignation, rumors began to swirl about misuse of the rabbi's discretionary fund, including gifts for a mistress. This prompted an internal investigation by temple officials and concerned members of the congregation.

Just weeks after Light resigned, in an extraordinary presentation, the center's board of trustees convened a special meeting and, before more than 500 members of the temple, detailed its review of Light's use of the fund.

According to temple members at the meeting, who spoke to the Asbury Park Press last year on condition of anonymity, the board explained that it believed Light worked to have his mistress and her family move from Tennessee to Mississippi. Once the woman relocated, Light told the board that he had been contacted by a family affected by Hurricane Katrina that wanted to get a new start in Marlboro.

Under this ruse, Light paid the mistress' family's expenses as well as his own family's.

Those findings were included in a report given to local law enforcement authorities. Valentin has since praised temple officials for their swift action and cooperation.

Light is scheduled to be sentenced by Kreizman May 4.

[Isa]

Mr Bunker:
Expose them all! But in the first case something is strange in that a fully paid for facility has to charge tuition like 100K a year. That place must be top heavy.

[Isa]

I was wrong!
That school was dedicated Sept 10, 2001 the next day his business was wiped out cause it was in the aviation reinsurance [9 11!!]. That school cost 250 million in construction

[Yakir Pinchas]

What deception do they use?

[zach]

I stayed at Aish for about a year, living tuition and rent-free in a nice apartment in the old city. They never asked me for a dime.

But that was about 20 years ago.

[Shmarya]

Again, Archie, you're arguing at a far lower level than you are capable of.

1. Noach Weinberg has a 40 year track record of proven deception, from the so-called Torah Codes to absolute manipulation of recruits. I heard him explain this by saying it was permissible to lie if and deceive if the goal is "holy." I also have independent confirmation of Rabbi Weinberg's position from other kiruv professionals.

2. Noach Weinberg and his wife have been separated for years. They do not live together. They do not like each other. They cover up this situation because publicity would hurt Aish and EYHAT. (Although, knowing what I know about his wife's eccentricities, no one should balme the man for divorcing her.) It is the use of DECEPTION, not the split itself, that is the problem.

3. The non-Orthodox school you mention is a BOARDING school. Tuition for non-Boarding students is $13,000 per year. Students get a lap top, wireless internet, an extremely low student to teacher ratio, top of the line lab equipment, technology and classrooms, dorms that are nicer than most private homes, an abundance of glatt kosher food, house parents for small groups of students along with recent college grads used as dorm counselors and mentors, dozens of extra curricular activities and first class sports field, gym, pools and equipment. They receive a first class college prep education with teachers that are highly qualified. All this on a 100 acre wooded setting with its own lake frontage.

This is a bargain at $25,000 per year. These kids get a far better education than a day school provides.

[rabbidw]

Question: Are you sure they are using deception? Could they not believe in the pap they are selling? When I was Bar Mitsvah, many years ago, ai could always tell when My Rabbi was giving me the "party Line" when I asked him a question. There was an apologetic look on his face, almost embarassment, as for professional reasons he could not acknowledge the problem I raised was real, and could definitely not tell me how the biblical critics dealt with the problem. But I am sure he was aware of the Biblical critics. His son, now in his mid fifties like I am, either believes in the party line or is a much better actor and knowing him for almost 50 years, he is not that good an actor. IOW he has swallowed the party line, hook and sinker. I am sure he has never looked at biblical criticism because it is apikursus. This is a man who stands atthe top levels of Orthodox Jewish life in America.
So my question to you is what makes you think that they are deliberately misleading rather that plain ignorant.
As far as paying more attention to wealthy people than poor people. Let me put it this way. If two women were in danger, one young and beautiful, and the other middle aged and ugly, which one would YOU save first. There is no reason why they should not pay attention to the wealthy. As I tell my daughter as she is starting to date.Yes marry someone that you love, but there is nothing wrong with falling in love with a wealthy young man.

[Sarah]

Aish NYC is the same as they are in Israel. They only want very wealthy young professionals who will contribute big sums. And they like pretty young women from wealthy families for the young men. Probably for the pleasure of the rabbis gazing at them as well. It is not an honest place and not welcoming to the average young Jew. I must contradict an earlier posting: there are young Jews in NYC, and elderly ones, too, who are not rich. As for the lying, deception and schnorring, AISH isn't any more guilty on that count than Midtown Manhattan Chabad or the infamous Kabbalah Center on Manhattan's East Side.

[Meyer]

>Rabbi Wienberg is a fraud, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman out to snatch the souls of your friends and your children."

Spoken by a true fraud, charlatan, grease oil salesman out to snatch our souls and those of our friends and children.

[SJ]

Shmarya- despite the rumors, is it posible that Wienberg and his wife are in separate apartments as a sexual chumra?

I ask this because I know of a rabbi who sleeps on a separate bed from his wife. They do have a stable family, although I would label not being able to be in bed with one's own wife as something that reeks of fanaticism.

[Nachum Lamm]

SJ, many (most?) Orthodox Jews sleep in separate beds, at least for two weeks out of the month. Separate rooms is unheard of outside of Victorian-era millionaires.

[Archie Bunker]

http://jewishsurvivors.blogspot.com/2007/11/rabbi-david-alan-stein-was-in-court.html

For the record, one of the "rabbis" at the Conservative boarding school was arrested for raping a boy (apparently in a statutory, consentual way).

Funny that we haven't heard any murmurings here of rabbi-on-boy sex abuse.

[Archie Bunker]

If Rabbi Weinberg is indeed using deceptive tactics I don't understand how he could get away with it in the long run. Do his charges not have free will to leave his fold if they feel they were duped?

If there are problems in the Weinberg marriage, Shmarya has just described the living arrangement of uncountable couples in the public sphere who hold on to use each other for power and money.

Most of the world could care less about Bill & Hillary Clinton or anyone else.

There are also other factors in the religious world that might be considered. I don't know anything about the Weinberg children and how old they are but the parents may want to spare them anguish.

[Archie Bunker]

I read the Aish handbook on Torah codes.

What's the problem?

It's mainly a likut culled from Rishonim & Acharonim. It's also nothing new. Seforim have been written by rabbis in previous generations that do the same thing. Start with Rav Weissmandel (the one who escaped the Nazis from Nitra) and go backwards in time to others.

[Archie Bunker]

Question #1

Have any kiruv professionals been on record criticizing rabbi Weinberg's tactics?

Question #2

Has anyone besides Shmarya made similar accusations in print whether in a book, newspaper or on a blog?

[Archie Bunker]

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2007/12/02/Bingo.ART_ART_12-02-07_A1_5R8KK3M.html?sid=101

And speaking of unprofessional kiruv figures, how did Shmarya miss this one?

[Meyer]

>Has anyone besides Shmarya made similar accusations in print whether in a book, newspaper or on a blog?

You're catching on, archie. You're finally catching on. Shmarya is one sick puppy with a 20 foot axe to grind. And he's a bachelor to boot.

[Shmarya]

Ab –

You're either blind or lying. Aish tells recruits about the "scientific validity" of the codes, without telling them that the vast majority of scientists reject the codes out of hand and have clearly shown the codes work equally well with Shakespeare and the Tel Aviv phone book.

As for Aish's deception, and I relaize anything critical of your dear world is difficult for you to process, it is well known. It was discussed many times in North American WUJS meetings, including specific examples. It has been discussed on the senior level of the WZO, which was set to ban Aish from its activities and its funding (yes, Aish took their money) in the mid-1980s for this and for other problems. Aish is closely followed by cult watch groups and professionals (check out what Rick Ross has to say about them) as is Chabad. And, I have my personal experiences that include Rabbi Weinberg explaining why he uses deception.

If none of this is enough for you, you might ask yourself the following question. Why does Matis Weinberg live within three blocks of Aish Jerusalem and why do Aish students frequent his home? If this is confusing for you, ask UOJ.

[Anon]

As a former EYAHT student....

When I went to Eyaht, the Weinbergs were pretending to live in 1 apartment. Eyaht girls are in the apartment daily basically cleaning, cooking, etc but under the guise that we were learing to be Jewish women. We were also privy to the “workings” of the Weinbergs home. Eyaht girls were never invited for Shabbat, despite cooking the majority of the meals. We were told that the Weinbergs only have family for Shabbat, no guest. Half of the apartment was off limits, supposedly because of sniyut. Rabbi Weinberg was never around and most of the women assumed that he was busy studying Torah and that they lived a very sniyut life.

When I found out that the Weinbergs were separated, I called an Aish Rebbetzin to ensure it was not Leshon Hara. This woman confirmed the information but did not understand why I needed to know the truth. She told me that they were not informing anyone because they did not want to hinder the shiddach opportunities for their 70+ grandchildren. The Weinberg’s supposedly have been separated for years. She also told me some additional information, not positive things, about Eyaht, which why in her words, “Aish does not encourage women to go Eyaht.” I was stunned. My friends and I were never discouraged from going to Eyaht or taking things “with a grain of salt,” while we were there.

Many of the women who go to Eyaht do so for the dream of having a wonderful HAPPY marriage. The Torah world seemed like the perfect solution for the divorce crisis in the secular world. R. Weinberg dishes out HER thoughts on marriage and how to have a proper Jewish home. We all think she is living the perfect frum life with her “talmid chacham” husband; the whole concept is romanticized. I am positive that the vast majority of Eyaht girls do not know about the Weinbergs. It would probably crush them to know that their life was dictated by a woman who is living a lie herself. No one likes to feel duped, especially when you have changed your life 180.

[SJ]

>> they did not want to hinder the shiddach opportunities for their 70+ grandchildren.

Isn't there a rule in the Torah about not judging people by the wrongdoings of their parents? So much for that shit in the orthodox world, espically in the shidduch business.

[Kiruv Awareness Network]

>>>Many of the women who go to Eyaht do so for the dream of having a wonderful HAPPY marriage. The Torah world seemed like the perfect solution for the divorce crisis in the secular world. R. Weinberg dishes out HER thoughts on marriage and how to have a proper Jewish home. We all think she is living the perfect frum life with her “talmid chacham” husband; the whole concept is romanticized.

Anon,

Excellent comment! Your insightful and heartfelt remarks are themselves post worthy. I hope you do not mind if I incorporate your comment into a post of its own on my blog. It would fit perfectly with some ideas I have been meaning to post on i.e. the‘romanticized’ or sanguine portrayal of Frum life. I plan to do so in the near future (next month). I have already touched on the issue in my latest post here. Best of luck to you.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya,

I don't know why you are so quick to suggest someone may be lying.

The handbook that I reviewed was an early version around the time that Aish first started the Bible code seminars 20 years ago. It was pretty innocuous.

I am not really impressed when scientists, Bible critics etc attack an area such as this. They will use every ounce of their being to denounce everything from the Genesis to the splitting of the Red Sea to Torah from Sinai. I also only have knowledge of attacks on Michael Drosnin who has a hybrid theory of the codes that includes that ridiculous things like space aliens. I have never heard Aish coming under criticism but maybe I'm just not well read enough.

While the Aussie professor of computer sciences, Brendan McKay mocks Drosnin that the codes can be employed on Moby Dick,

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/drosnin.html

he argues from a silly standpoint. Drosnin was not and probably will never be killed in Athens or Cairo, while Yitzchak Rabin was killed in Israel after being found in the code.

If there is so much documented information against Aish as you say, you should link to it.

In the meantime I have asked UOJ if knows anything about Matis Weinberg & Aish. He allowed the post through but has not yet responded.

[Archie Bunker]

Shmarya,

I don't know why you are so quick to suggest someone may be lying.

The handbook that I reviewed was an early version around the time that Aish first started the Bible code seminars 20 years ago. It was pretty innocuous.

I am not really impressed when scientists, Bible critics etc attack an area such as this. They will use every ounce of their being to denounce everything from the Genesis to the splitting of the Red Sea to Torah from Sinai. I also only have knowledge of attacks on Michael Drosnin who has a hybrid theory of the codes that includes that ridiculous things like space aliens. I have never heard Aish coming under criticism but maybe I'm just not well read enough.

While the Aussie professor of computer sciences, Brendan McKay mocks Drosnin that the codes can be employed on Moby Dick,

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/drosnin.html

he argues from a silly standpoint. Drosnin was not and probably will never be killed in Athens or Cairo, while Yitzchak Rabin was killed in Israel after being found in the code.

If there is so much documented information against Aish as you say, you should link to it.

In the meantime I have asked UOJ if knows anything about Matis Weinberg & Aish. He allowed the post through but has not yet responded.

[avi]

http://www.rickross.com/disclaimer.html

Disclaimer:

However, the mention and/or inclusion of a group or leader within this archive does not define that group as a "cult" and/or an individual mentioned as either destructive and/or harmful. Instead, such inclusion simply reflects that archived articles and/or research is available about a group or person that has generated some interest and/or controversy.

All the information archived must be evaluated critically, through a process of independent and individual judgment. Please note that there are links often prominently posted to a group or movement's own official website, which reflect their views. It is important to see what they have to say.

[Anon]

-"they did not want to hinder the shiddach opportunities for their 70+ grandchildren"

To be honest, The Rebbetzin said (less than a year ago) that they did not want to hinder the shiddach's of their "children". Since their children are married I just assumed grandchildren but then again, perhaps they have been seperated for so many years that at that time, their children were single.

[Shmarya]

AB –

Actually, McKay is arguing correctly. What Drosnin and Aish do is find things that have already happened and say, "LOOOK! HERE IT IS!," while at the same time IGNORING all the things found through those codes that did NOT happen. They also claim use of the codes for future predictions, although Aish qualifies that with the idea that only the greatest rabbis with das torah ware able to correctly do this.

Avi –

I know from you repeated posts that logic is foreign to you. Still, try to understand that whether or not Aish is defined as a cult by Rick Ross does NOT change whether or not tactics used by Aish are also tactics used by cults.

Rick Ross clearly note those tactics.

Now go play with your Google and see what other inane things you can find for us.

[SJ]

>> Actually, McKay is arguing correctly. What Drosnin and Aish do is find things that have already happened and say, "LOOOK! HERE IT IS!," while at the same time IGNORING all the things found through those codes that did NOT happen. They also claim use of the codes for future predictions, although Aish qualifies that with the idea that only the greatest rabbis with das torah ware able to correctly do this.

Let us assume that the bible codes are actually legit. Next, let us assume that a code was found for Captain Kirk. Does it mean that Captain Kirk existed? No, it merely would mean that the IDEA of Captain Kirk existed, and Captain Kirk is merely an idea.

If the bible codes are actually legit, and something is found in it, I would think that that it only means that the idea of that thing is extant, not necessarily that thing itself.

[Walking Along the Shore]

I am not really impressed when scientists, Bible critics etc attack an area such as this.

The Bible Codes as done by Aish and others today are only possible through the use of a computer program. It was computer science that enabled this in the first place. So, if scientists wish to critique the Codes claims, it is 100% within their purview to do so.

They will use every ounce of their being to denounce everything from the Genesis to the splitting of the Red Sea to Torah from Sinai.

So what? That doesn't invalidate their findings in regard to the Bible Codes. I'm sure that you have no problem accepting and making use of the findings of scientists when it comes to medine. So, why should it invalidate the findings of matehmaticians, statisticians, and computer scientists in this case?

While the Aussie professor of computer sciences, Brendan McKay mocks Drosnin that the codes can be employed on Moby Dick,

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/drosnin.html

McKay didn't mock Drosnin, et al. He demonstrated that their claims were incorrect - that the Codes are not exclusive to the Torah, and that the same type of "predictive" information could be found in other books.

he argues from a silly standpoint. Drosnin was not and probably will never be killed in Athens or Cairo, while Yitzchak Rabin was killed in Israel after being found in the code.

From the wikipedia article:

"Drosnin's most famous success was to predict, in 1994, the 1995 assassination of Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin, using a Bible code technique.[4] Drosnin uses this prediction as evidence for the validity of bible code techniques.[5] Opponents claim that in the political atmosphere of the time, predicting with no additional details the fact that Rabin would be assassinated is not compelling, though dramatic.[citation needed]

Drosnin, in The Bible Code II, suggested the possibility of nuclear holocausts and the destruction of major cities by earthquakes in 2006, saying "The dangers will peak in the Hebrew year 5766 (September 2005 - September 2006 in the modern calendar), the year that is most clearly encoded with both 'World War' and 'Atomic Holocaust'."[6] These events did not occur during the predicted time.[citation needed]

Drosnin, however, refrains from making concrete predictions, saying, "I don't think the code makes predictions. I think it reveals probabilities." Drosnin also said "I think it might tell us all our possible futures. That appears to include a warning of a possible nuclear war."[5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code#Predictions

It is also the way of psychics and their followers to made a big deal about the "hits," but ignore or downplay the misses. One wonders how many "predictions" Drosnin found that did not come true.

He covers himself well, though. By saying that they are "probabilities" and "possible futures" it allows his claims to be shielded from every outcome. If one were to find a Code for Rabin that said he would be retired and living in a villa at age 80, which would contradict what we know really happened, it can easily be answered with, "Well, that was one of the possibilities for him, if things went a certain way. They went a different way, and he was assasinated. These aren't predictions, they are possible futures."

[Anon]

--You're catching on, archie. You're finally catching on. Shmarya is one sick puppy with a 20 foot axe to grind. And he's a bachelor to boot.--

Perhaps Shmarya is jealous that Weinberg has a wife even though she does sleep in a different room.

[yossi]

thre is actuely a megilass chanucah and some opinions hold that it was written by the sons of mattisyahu cohen godol and it states their clearly about the story of the oil (so much for no torah source)

[rabbidw]

To Yossi: and there also is a Santa Claus. There is NO megilat Chaukah. The story of the oil originated 150 years after the wars. The Al Hanisim says nothing about the oil. And if they found a cruze of oil sealed with the seal of the COhen Gadol, that was Menealus. Since when is a chotei u'machtee es harabim a valid hechsher.
The Bible codes do no predict, they can only be used afterwards, to find "evidence" of the event. In addition, EVERYONE who knows anything about chumash knows thatour current text did not become fixed until after the printing press. I am not talking about biblical criticism, I am talking about the Aleppo codex, the Leningrad codex, and the work of the Masoretes, the developers of the Masoretic text. The arguments deal mainly with words that are spelled with an added letter, or without. There are places where Rashi does not have the same spelling that we have in our chumash. The point being that if the letters of the Torah are not fixed, any codes that are based on the number of letters must be a fraud.
But I will bet that these people believe every word that they preach. Therefore they are fools, but not con-men.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have heard that Christian missionaries find Jesus all over the torah using "codes" (apart from their allegorical readings of that guy into it). If so, does that "prove" what the Christians believe about Yushka? The codes are a neat trick, but I wouldn't base my faith upon them.

[Fran]

funny because from your quote (maybe you didnt quote it right) he did not say they got it from the BOOK of macabies rather just from them (as in the people named as such).

So i know you are LOOKING for a lie, but there is none.

[avi]

Shmarya,

I am merely pointing out to the public your modus operendi of insinuation and slander without fact or merit.

You quoted this guy as a factual source, which was misleading. Now you backtrack as usual.

Regards,

Avi

BTW, logic tells me that you need professional help.

[Shmarya]

I am merely pointing out to the public your modus operendi of insinuation and slander without fact or merit.

No. You are misrepresenting Rick Ross and you are lying, as well.

Regards …

funny because from your quote (maybe you didnt quote it right) he did not say they got it from the BOOK of macabies rather just from them (as in the people named as such).

So i know you are LOOKING for a lie, but there is none.

Well, by his answer, Rabbi Shiff DID imply that we get this from a book that the Maccabees wrote. Since the only books attributed to the Maccabees are I&II Maccabees, we will have to take it that he meant those books. Unless Rabbi Shiff knows of another book written by the Maccabees - in which case that would be a major find in the world of ancient texts. Or maybe Rabbi Shiff did not take "who wrote the book" to mean a literal book, but rather as the expression form, as in, "The Jews wrote the book on latkes."

Maybe Rabbi Shiff made a mistake and misspoke. That might be the case. But, if he meant what he said, then the only two books we can thusly attribute are I&II Maccabees - and they don't mention the miracle of the oil.

“Where did they get the idea in the first place? That’s my question—who wrote the book?”

“The Maccabees,” Shiff said. “It’s history.”

[Fran]

he never said the book, you just WANT him to have said that. There is a reason the books never made it to TANACH (mostly due to its inacuracies but other reasons too). Since a "man of the book" such of him doesnt accept the book, why would he reference it. Again you are looking for something that isnt there. He SEEMS to have been refering to the people themselves who passed down the tradition of what happened

[Fran]

btw just on the bible codes thing....there are 16 different ways (at least) to prove that jesus was messiah through them so they dont really hold a lot of water

[Anonyguy]

Actually Aish acknowledges, in the "codes" lectures, that there is some historical variation in certain letters and words, and discusses the meaningfulness of that variation given the total amount of data that is corrupted as a percentage of the whole and with reference to other bodies of comparable data.

So this is what it comes down to? The Bible codes are maybe problematic, probably oversold, so Noach Weinberg is "a fraud, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman out to snatch the souls of your friends and your children" -- ultimately by exposing them to orthodox Judaism? And that makes it okay to "out" him for not being able to get along with his wife and preferring, like 75% of people in unhappy marriages, and being an elderly man, not to get a divorce nor issue a press release regarding what is ENTIRELY a private matter?

Shmarya, you're pathetic.

[avi]

A man was talking to his friend about what to do for his 50th wedding anniversary. The friend asked, “What did you do for your 25th?”

He said, “I took my wife to Hawaii.”

The friend then asked, “What are you thinking about for your 50th?”

He said, “Well I was thinking of bringing her back.”

[Shmarya]

1. Noach Weinberg and his wife have been separated for MANY years.

2. Being separated did NOT stop eaith Noach Weinberg or his wife from lecturing worldwide about the "better" marriages and "few" divorces of the yeshiva world, all without telling the truth about their own lives or the lives of so many other yeshiva families in similar situations.

3. The caveats you say Aish puts in the codes lectures are NEW. As recently as four years ago, long after the problems with the codes were exposed, Aish was giving seminars worldwide as if the codes were perfect and unchallenged.

4. Aish uses many deceptive techniques in recruitment. The codes is only one of those deceptions.

[Archie Bunker]

The Weinbergs touting "better" marriages and "few" divorces of the yeshiva world is NOT hypocritical.

The system can and does work better for most people even if the Weinbergs were unfortunate. Why not credit them for wishing the best for others? I can think of two reasons.

1. Shmarya is not generous in this respect.

2. Shmarya suspects the Weinbergs are driven solely by money, which despite his deep seeded aversion to Haredi kiruv, he cannot prove.

[Archie Bunker]

Sorry, a tree does not grow in Shmarya.

Make that "deep-seated"

[adam]

That is interesting that the Weinberger's are living seperate lives because the issue that angers me the most about Aish is the feminism that Aish pushes(which is not torah at all they claim feminism is consistant with torah and is to help women which is not true) and the way they like to bring young attractive women into the movement and then brainwash them and they never get married and are basically become helpmates to Aish Rabbi's. I THINK WEINBERG'S ISSUE WITH HIS WIFE IS VERY SIGNIFICANT because that is WHY they overcompensate with Aish and they have NO BUSINESS GIVING DATING OR SINGLE ADVICE which that aspect of Aish is HORRIBLE BEYOND WORDS AND NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY. Why do they have 2 women schools and only 1 male school for a very narrow age range. I once got a letter from Rabbi Shraga Simmons in an article about dating that item 3 said MEN DON'T GET WOMEN. Specifically blaming the men. Many complained about it and get a letter from Rabbi Shragga saying divorce is the man's fault because he has less Bina. And they continue to bash Jewish men all the time. I was so angered by Aish. Chabad for it's problems at least supports the family to some degree.

[Lev]

Hello, Yochanan.
This is A.I. Solzhenitsyn(himself the best sincere friend of Jewish Orthodoxy in the world) of BT Archipellago.
"Kiruv Awareness Network"(above) is probably Anne Applebaum(author of "Gulag").
Shmarya and others(girls from EYAHT) brought another sorrowful and horrid chapter about one of the "vertuhais" or "kooms"(aka "kiruv Rabbis").
Archie Bunker, you should know that Rav Weissmandel ztzvkl'v LIMITED "CODES" by parshios Behukoisai and Ki Savo ONLY!
"Aish" was on Rick Ross since at least 1999!