Eternal Jewish Family To Tighten Grip On Conversion In North America?

Eternal Jewish Family is a haredi-run Monsey, New York-based organization that seeks to standardize conversions worldwide. EJF is headed by Rabbi Leib Tropper, a controversial haredi "outreach professional" who is also the rosh yeshiva of Kol Yakov, a ba'al teshuva yeshiva in Monsey. Rabbi Tropper and EJF work hand-in-hand with  Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein, chairman of the Israel-based haredi Vaad HaRabbonim Haolami LeInyonei Giyur, whose goal's Rabbi Tropper shares. For his part, Rabbi Eisenstein is a close confidant of Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the so-called gadol hador, the preëminent leader in the haredi community worldwide.

Rabbi Tropper has been accused in the past of using bait-and-switch tactics to ensnare potential converts, and of using deception and outright lies to keep them on board. Sometimes Rabbi Tropper's bunko tactics fail him. What happens then?

One example of that was reported here several months ago, the first reportage of that story anywhere. Another example will be reported here within a few days. It will, I think, shock you.

In preparation for what is about to come, I suggest you reread this post from June 3, 2007:

Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum has done a despicable thing.

Rabbi Rosenblum is the only haredi spokesperson I respect. While I often disagree with him, he is usually honest and forthright, and he tires to make his case in a clear logical manner without using the tricks and verbal gymnastics so common to those who ply his trade.

Rabbi Rosenblum has a column in today's Jerusalem Post defending the haredi rabbi, Avraham Attiya, who voided a woman's conversion 15 years after the fact and ruled that her children are non-Jews. He forbade anyone in the family – including her husband, who either was converted separately or was born Jewish – from marrying into the Jewish community. Not content with this butchery alone, Rabbi Attiya went on to excoriate the state-sponsored Orthodox conversion courts and the rabbis who serve on them, calling them sinners and non-Jews. He summarily voided all conversions – thousands of them – done by these Religious Zionist Orthodox rabbis.

To defend Rabbi Attiya, Rabbi Rosenblum uses former Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren:

…I WONDER how many of those calling for Rabbi Attias's scalp remember that Rabbi Shlomo Goren "freed" a brother and sister from the halachic status of mamzerut by voiding their mother's marriage at the time of their conception. And that was done, in turn, by voiding her husband's conversion, despite the fact that he had been living as a fully observant Jew for decades. For his promise to "solve" the problem of two mamzerim, Goren was rewarded by prime minister Golda Meir with appointment as the Ashkenazi chief rabbi and became a national hero.…

There was a German girl in my ulpan class 30 years ago who was living at a nearby kibbutz. She was personally converted by then-chief rabbi Goren late in her ninth month of pregnancy. When I asked her whether Goren had inquired about the likelihood of her keeping mitzvot on the completely secular kibbutz, she laughed. "Right," she said, "a little German girl is going to come here and tell a group of German Holocaust survivors that they should make the dining hall kosher."

In the famous Seidman case, Goren personally converted a woman who had repeatedly stressed that she saw no need for an Orthodox conversion and had no intention of becoming mitzva observant in order to forestall a civil marriage law in the Knesset.…

Of course, what Rabbi Rosenblum does not mention, what he does not tell his readership, is that every Goren case mentioned involved ruling leniently, to kula, in order to reduce or prevent suffering (or, in the Seidman case, to protect the integrity of the rabbinic monopoly over marriage as a whole, which would have been removed in its entirety by the Knesset). What Rabbi Goren did, as controversial as some of it was, is well-supported in halakhic thought.

As I've written many times before, the idea is not for rabbis to be strict, especially with people who will not abide by that strictness. From Hillel the Elder onward (at least until the birth of haredism in the early 1800s), this has been the norm. As Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told a former teacher of mine (and I paraphrase), "It is easy to be strict. It is much more difficult to be lenient. My job is to ease the burden on Jews and to be lenient whenever possible."

To void a conversion 15 years after the fact, to be as harsh and uncaring, as brutal and as barbaric as Rabbi Attiya is to turn the entire halakhic process on its head.

There is no way Rabbi Attiya can know why this woman's converting rabbis did what they did. (More telling: He did not even bother to find out.) Rather than behave with kindness, to try to draw the woman closer to observance, to try to befriend the family, he lashed out, causing irreparable harm.

Rabbi Rosenblum goes on to compare the case of this poor woman to conversions done by non-Orthodox rabbis.

Then, Rabbi Rosenblum discusses with approval the work of the Monsey-based haredi group, Eternal Jewish Family. EJF, founded and run by Rabbi Leib Tropper, is a major player in the haredi move to control the conversion process worldwide.

Rabbi Tropper, who is also the founder and rosh yeshiva of Kol Yakov, a Monsey-based haredi ba'al teshuva yeshiva, is a controversial figure.

Rabbi Tropper has been accused of using bait-and-switch tactics to lure potential converts from intermarried families. In one southern city, Rabbi Tropper promised potential converts that a mikva would be built and a shul opened – no one would need to move to Monsey or another Orthodox enclave. But, when the time for conversion neared, no mikva existed and no synagogue functioned. The promised rabbi Tropper was to send had not arrived. Then, Rabbi Tropper dropped a bombshell. These potential converts, all serious, all had studied for more than a year, would have to move from the southern United States to Monsey, New York – or their conversions were off.

Rabbi Tropper told me these converts confused his hopes with promises. But in email correspondence shared with me, Rabbi Tropper admits in part to misleading these poor people.

Further, there are cities with mikvas, Modern Orthodox congregations and YU-trained rabbis relatively close to where these people live. They could drive for an hour and a half and spend Shabbat and holidays with families there until a congregation can open in their home town. Rabbi Tropper did not propose that option. (In their home town, by the way, there are other such Tropper-involved families facing similar decisions, and where one or two observant Jews live. Some of those potential converts have been said to be fearful that Tropper will cut them off, too, if they speak out about his dishonesty.)

The husband of this family is in his 50s. He has years vested at his job with a pension due on retirement. He will lose all that if he moves, along with facing the problem of finding a new job at that age. Rabbi Tropper made many cloud-like promises – this friend in Monsey will find something for you or that man who works for the city will take care of you – but nothing concrete, and the family was unwilling to trust a man who had already lied to them.

Rabbi Tropper summarily threw the eldest son of this family out of his yeshiva, leaving him broke with no way to get to the airport and back home. He claimed the boy was not serious about his learning yet the boy's teachers had given the family nothing but praise – until the day they refused to move to Monsey. This teenager had to borrow money to get home.

Tropper had promised the family the boy would be able to get his GED at Kol Yakov, and he urged them to withdraw the child from public school and send him to Monsey and Tropper's yeshiva. But Tropper made no arrangements for that GED. It did not matter, however,  because the boy was ineligible for a GED under NY law because he was too young. He lost a year, and had to regroup and restructure his life, all because Rabbi Leib Tropper cannot tell the truth.

These people spent thousands of dollars on new kitchen appliances and dishes, kept strictly kosher and did whatever Rabbi Tropper demanded. They appeared on Tropper's EJF website praising the organization and were used by Tropper as examples of his "successful" approach. This material was apparently shown to Rabbi Shlomo Amar, Israel's Sefardic chief rabbi, and to other Israeli haredi leaders who later moved to block acceptance of all Rabbinical Council of America (Modern Orthodox) conversions. Now this family is "lost" to "Yiddishkeit" because of Tropper's failings.

(By the way, I, along with David Kelsey, pitched this story to a major Jewish newspaper last year. The paper, familiar with this blog, would not assign the story to me because I'm too close to the issue and too outspoken. But they were not aware of Kelsey's blog, and were willing to assign it to him. Or, if we wanted, we could do it as an op-ed. I was game for that; Kelsey was not. In the end, we turned it down hoping the paper would relent. It did not. No one else has the story, so, as far as I know, this is the first place this has appeared.)

While it is true that Rabbi Rosenblum can hardly be expected to know the details of this story, there are other similar stories about Rabbi Tropper. A bit of poking might have served Rabbi Rosenblum well.

To sum up: Extremely lenient rulings to spare individuals pain is the halakhic norm, not the halakhic exception. Using halakha for political gain, while unfortunately the common these days, is neither laudable or supported by normative halakha.

Jonathan Rosenblum should apologize for his lapse in judgment. He can then go on defending that which I believe he often, in his deepest thoughts, knows to be indefensible.

Sefardic chief rabbi Shlomo Amar was in the US last week, meeting with leaders of the Rabbinical Council of America. Rabbi Amar is attempting to get the RCA to agree to allow Rabbi Amar to have control over who sits as judges on the new conversion courts to be established in the US.  Along with that, Amar wants his standards (i.e., Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv's standards) adopted as law. Anything less than or different from his vision is to be rejected.

It seems that one of the things Rabbi Amar wants is retroactive cancellation of conversions, even years after the fact, if converts are found to be less or differently observant that Rabbi Amar's standards. This means that converts can be deemed non-Jewish years after the fact, their children ruled non-Jews, their grandchildren ruled non-Jews.

This is already happening. We have the case in Israel mentioned above. But there are other cases, as well.

Other cases?!?! Yes, other cases.

What does the RCA have to say about this? Will it stand up to Rabbi Amar and his Ashkenazi haredi friends? Or will it, or has it already, buckled under pressure?

More on them to come early next week.

Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum has done a despicable thing.

Rabbi Rosenblum is the only haredi spokesperson I respect. While I often disagree with him, he is usually honest and forthright, and he tires to make his case in a clear logical manner without using the tricks and verbal gymnastics so common to those who ply his trade.

Rabbi Rosenblum has a column in today's Jerusalem Post defending the haredi rabbi, Avraham Attiya, who voided a woman's conversion 15 years after the fact and ruled that her children are non-Jews. He forbade anyone in the family – including her husband, who either was converted separately or was born Jewish – from marrying into the Jewish community. Not content with this butchery alone, Rabbi Attiya went on to excoriate the state-sponsored Orthodox conversion courts and the rabbis who serve on them, calling them sinners and non-Jews. He summarily voided all conversions – thousands of them – done by these Religious Zionist Orthodox rabbis.

To defend Rabbi Attiya, Rabbi Rosenblum uses former Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren:

…I WONDER how many of those calling for Rabbi Attias's scalp remember that Rabbi Shlomo Goren "freed" a brother and sister from the halachic status of mamzerut by voiding their mother's marriage at the time of their conception. And that was done, in turn, by voiding her husband's conversion, despite the fact that he had been living as a fully observant Jew for decades. For his promise to "solve" the problem of two mamzerim, Goren was rewarded by prime minister Golda Meir with appointment as the Ashkenazi chief rabbi and became a national hero.…

There was a German girl in my ulpan class 30 years ago who was living at a nearby kibbutz. She was personally converted by then-chief rabbi Goren late in her ninth month of pregnancy. When I asked her whether Goren had inquired about the likelihood of her keeping mitzvot on the completely secular kibbutz, she laughed. "Right," she said, "a little German girl is going to come here and tell a group of German Holocaust survivors that they should make the dining hall kosher."

In the famous Seidman case, Goren personally converted a woman who had repeatedly stressed that she saw no need for an Orthodox conversion and had no intention of becoming mitzva observant in order to forestall a civil marriage law in the Knesset.…

Of course, what Rabbi Rosenblum does not mention, what he does not tell his readership, is that every Goren case mentioned involved ruling leniently, to kula, in order to reduce or prevent suffering (or, in the Seidman case, to protect the integrity of the rabbinic monopoly over marriage as a whole, which would have been removed in its entirety by the Knesset). What Rabbi Goren did, as controversial as some of it was, is well-supported in halakhic thought.

As I've written many times before, the idea is not for rabbis to be strict, especially with people who will not abide by that strictness. From Hillel the Elder onward (at least until the birth of haredism in the early 1800s), this has been the norm. As Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told a former teacher of mine (and I paraphrase), "It is easy to be strict. It is much more difficult to be lenient. My job is to ease the burden on Jews and to be lenient whenever possible."

To void a conversion 15 years after the fact, to be as harsh and uncaring, as brutal and as barbaric as Rabbi Attiya is to turn the entire halakhic process on its head.

There is no way Rabbi Attiya can know why this woman's converting rabbis did what they did. (More telling: He did not even bother to find out.) Rather than behave with kindness, to try to draw the woman closer to observance, to try to befriend the family, he lashed out, causing irreparable harm.

Rabbi Rosenblum goes on to compare the case of this poor woman to conversions done by non-Orthodox rabbis.

Then, Rabbi Rosenblum discusses with approval the work of the Monsey-based haredi group, Eternal Jewish Family. EJF, founded and run by Rabbi Leib Tropper, is a major player in the haredi move to control the conversion process worldwide.

Rabbi Tropper, who is also the founder and rosh yeshiva of Kol Yakov, a Monsey-based haredi ba'al teshuva yeshiva, is a controversial figure.

Rabbi Tropper has been accused of using bait-and-switch tactics to lure potential converts from intermarried families. In one southern city, Rabbi Tropper promised potential converts that a mikva would be built and a shul opened – no one would need to move to Monsey or another Orthodox enclave. But, when the time for conversion neared, no mikva existed and no synagogue functioned. The promised rabbi Tropper was to send had not arrived. Then, Rabbi Tropper dropped a bombshell. These potential converts, all serious, all had studied for more than a year, would have to move from the southern United States to Monsey, New York – or their conversions were off.

Rabbi Tropper told me these converts confused his hopes with promises. But in email correspondence shared with me, Rabbi Tropper admits in part to misleading these poor people.

Further, there are cities with mikvas, Modern Orthodox congregations and YU-trained rabbis relatively close to where these people live. They could drive for an hour and a half and spend Shabbat and holidays with families there until a congregation can open in their home town. Rabbi Tropper did not propose that option. (In their home town, by the way, there are other such Tropper-involved families facing similar decisions, and where one or two observant Jews live. Some of those potential converts have been said to be fearful that Tropper will cut them off, too, if they speak out about his dishonesty.)

The husband of this family is in his 50s. He has years vested at his job with a pension due on retirement. He will lose all that if he moves, along with facing the problem of finding a new job at that age. Rabbi Tropper made many cloud-like promises – this friend in Monsey will find something for you or that man who works for the city will take care of you – but nothing concrete, and the family was unwilling to trust a man who had already lied to them.

Rabbi Tropper summarily threw the eldest son of this family out of his yeshiva, leaving him broke with no way to get to the airport and back home. He claimed the boy was not serious about his learning yet the boy's teachers had given the family nothing but praise – until the day they refused to move to Monsey. This teenager had to borrow money to get home.

Tropper had promised the family the boy would be able to get his GED at Kol Yakov, and he urged them to withdraw the child from public school and send him to Monsey and Tropper's yeshiva. But Tropper made no arrangements for that GED. It did not matter, however,  because the boy was ineligible for a GED under NY law because he was too young. He lost a year, and had to regroup and restructure his life, all because Rabbi Leib Tropper cannot tell the truth.

These people spent thousands of dollars on new kitchen appliances and dishes, kept strictly kosher and did whatever Rabbi Tropper demanded. They appeared on Tropper's EJF website praising the organization and were used by Tropper as examples of his "successful" approach. This material was apparently shown to Rabbi Shlomo Amar, Israel's Sefardic chief rabbi, and to other Israeli haredi leaders who later moved to block acceptance of all Rabbinical Council of America (Modern Orthodox) conversions. Now this family is "lost" to "Yiddishkeit" because of Tropper's failings.

(By the way, I, along with David Kelsey, pitched this story to a major Jewish newspaper last year. The paper, familiar with this blog, would not assign the story to me because I'm too close to the issue and too outspoken. But they were not aware of Kelsey's blog, and were willing to assign it to him. Or, if we wanted, we could do it as an op-ed. I was game for that; Kelsey was not. In the end, we turned it down hoping the paper would relent. It did not. No one else has the story, so, as far as I know, this is the first place this has appeared.)

While it is true that Rabbi Rosenblum can hardly be expected to know the details of this story, there are other similar stories about Rabbi Tropper. A bit of poking might have served Rabbi Rosenblum well.

To sum up: Extremely lenient rulings to spare individuals pain is the halakhic norm, not the halakhic exception. Using halakha for political gain, while unfortunately the common these days, is neither laudable or supported by normative halakha.

Jonathan Rosenblum should apologize for his lapse in judgment. He can then go on defending that which I believe he often, in his deepest thoughts, knows to be indefensible.

Sefardic chief rabbi Shlomo Amar was in the US last week, meeting with leaders of the Rabbinical Council of America. Rabbi Amar is attempting to get the RCA to agree to allow Rabbi Amar to have control over who sits as judges on the new conversion courts to be established in the US.  Along with that, Amar wants his standards (i.e., Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv's standards) adopted as law. Anything less than or different from his vision is to be rejected.

It seems that one of the things Rabbi Amar wants is retroactive cancellation of conversions, even years after the fact, if converts are found to be less or differently observant that Rabbi Amar's standards. This means that converts can be deemed non-Jewish years after the fact, their children ruled non-Jews, their grandchildren ruled non-Jews.

This is already happening. We have the case in Israel mentioned above. But there are other cases, as well.

Other cases?!?! Yes, other cases.

What does the RCA have to say about this? Will it stand up to Rabbi Amar and his Ashkenazi haredi friends? Or will it, or has it already, buckled under pressure?

More on them to come early next week.

Comments

[yona loriner]

shame on u failed ur retarded!!!

[Mordecai]

We Jews are our own worst enemies. And many of us are just unable to look in the mirror and see our faults. Everybody is out to get us. Everybody is an anti-semite or at least an inchoate anti-semite. And there is always some officious intermeddling know-it-all Rabbi to clobber us with guilt-trips and the Talmud.

In an article on CHABAD.COM a rabbi who I will assume is well meaning explains why Jews should not inter-marry. IN an effort apparently to induce guilt, he says that the non-Jews are the descendents of the oppressors and the Jews are the descendants of the oppressed, therefore the implication is that we marry the oppressors. He also suggests that those who intermarry of finishing the work Hitler did not complete.

In fairness to Chabad, I do not think this argument or line of reasoning is part of the official doctrine. Frankly I have met wonderful people affiliated with Chabad but that is beside the point.

It is apparently "us" against "them" to many Jews. Many of us still have at least our little toe in the figurative Shtetl if not our whole bodies. Many of us are still afraid of the armed Polish peasantry or waiting for the Coassacks to appear over the next hill.

How hard it must be to go through life and see every non-Jew as a descendant of the oppressors instead of possible friend or a decent soul.

But if one has this "us" against "them" attitude it is a very short step to religiously cleanse the mishbucha. The "purity" of the Jew must apparently be maintained. The Rabbis will tell us who has a "Jewish soul" and who does not. Like a Jewish Dr. Mengele in Rabbi garb who stands at the train station and goes down the line of the Jews separating the ersatz Jews from the real ones. You -- Nicht Juden and You -- Juden.

I find all of this utterly disgusting.

[Mordecai]

Here is the exact quote of the Chabad Rabbi that I was referring to:

"Intermarriage usually results, sooner or later, in endless friction and unhappiness. That a casual, or even more serious, kind of relationship seemed in the past to indicate compatibility, is no proof that it would be so ever after in a marriage situation. On the contrary, it is inevitable that two people of such divergent backgrounds, one descending from generations of oppressed and victimised people the other from the world of the oppressors and predacious, should be affected by hereditary forces."

THIS RABBI IS ACTUALLY MAKING A GENETIC ARGUMENT TO SUGGEST THAT THERE IS SOME KIND OF HEREDITARY OPPRESSOR GENE IN THE BIOLOGICAL MAKEUP OF THE NON-JEW. I WONDER IF THIS REFERS TO ESKIMOS AND MAORIS AS WELL.

HERE IS THE LINK JUST TO SHOW I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108396/jewish/Intermarriage.htm

[r.singer]

As a product of both intermarriage (father, unbelievably, came from orthodox Jews)and a scam conversion of my mother by an orthodox rabbi on Long Island-- 'mi yehudi' and conversion--defined and impacted every aspect my life, prior to and inside CH.

Only the Rebbe' z'tl understood what this meant and what to do; shluchim didnt even know how to handle someone like me.

I'm one of those crazy fanatics who agrees intermarriage will finish what the Nazis couldnt complete--but I came to my conclusion from a hard learned personal lesson.
Non halachic conversions unquestionably should be identified and either corrected or voided.
Are we accepting Jews-by-default now? If you've sorta beena a Jew long enough, you should be welcomed into the mashpacha?

My mother in explaining why she didnt want to correct her status when I offered to help her do it the right way, told me, "its what's in your heart that counts.." ahhh, mentschlichkeit:-)

Not knowing better I made the same arguement when I found out my own status after years of being taken for a Jew.

Conservative Judaism and the rabbi across the street from us, never said a word...and I naively tell rabbonim, 'but I "feel like a Jew" and "eveyone thinks I'm a Jew" so, aint I a Jew?.

BTW, everyone is out to get us and we are our own worst enemies and this is a classic example of a head in sand issue effecting the entire body of Judaism; but it pops again up every so often. If things continue as they are, low birth rate, intermmarriage we wont have to discuss it at all soon.

[Mordecai]

My dear friend Mr. Singer:

Greetings to you my friend and brother.

But what Jewish precept shall we adopt to resolve this issue? The Karaites believe in paternal transmission and cite excellent authority on which to base this view. Apparently you have found the answer that suits you. But are you now to generalize your answer, your truth, your reality to that of everyone?

The problem with orthodoxy is that it claims FINALITY and CERTITUDE for its proclamations but makes understandable only the abstractions upon which it is based. You either accept it by faith or you do not.

But the Karaites have faith too as do the Reformed. Modern orthodoxy was yesterday's heresy. The Saducees did not accept the oral law or believe in the world to come. The Pharisees (often seen as the beginnings of Rabbinite Judaism) was a radical and new version of Judaism in many ways.

We all have a personal story that we unfurl somehow to accentuate our point as if we are the authority.

I myself have inter-married and am the traitorous Jew apparently to many of the Orthodox. I do not hate the Orthodox. I have been told that our souls are incompatible. If this is so it is only because my soul has not reached her level of perfection.

Many of my fellow Jews (whom I love) in contemplating my wife cannot see the beautiful soul beyond the "goy." After all it is NOT a "Jewish Soul." (whatever that means). What a loss for them.

As my dear wife is now slowly wasting away from a terminal disease I feel an obligation to express my disagreement with the narrow-minded persecutors among my beloved people and attempt to remonstrate with them and dialogue with them. I should further say that there are some Chabad Rabbis with whom I have spoken that have provided for me wonderful solace in my difficult time.

You may be aware of the Harvard Professor Feldman, a brilliant man, who married a Korean woman and was ostracized by his orthodox community. Rabbis such as Shmuley Boteach (Chabad trained) is a personal friend of his and has written that we Jews should not ostracize those among us who inter-marry. Thus I do not see Chabad as the enemy vis-a-vis this issue nor do I wish to demonize Chabad. Many individuals however give in to the yetzer-hara of prejudice and bigotry -- even Rabbis-- and seek to cloak this in an imprimatur of righteous doctrinal theology.

However to read the trash written by the Rabbi pursuant to my previous posts stating that my saintly wife (simply because she is not Jewish) is genetically pre-disposed to oppress Jews is nothing more than trash-talk and hate speech. I assume your mother, though not born Jewish, is a lovely woman and deserves basic human respect.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Mordecai: I am sorry to hear your wife is not well. I agree that not all gentiles are evil, and that intermarried Jews shouldn't be ostracized. Best wishes.

[The Heilge Rebbe of Otisville]

Tropper has two lovely twin girls, Gila and Rina. They always have sad look on their face. Makes me wonder if they are sexually or physically abused by him or maybe by its students.

I pray that I am wrong but I hope that child services will interview the girls soon.

The problem here is that out here in real life, hundreds of reform or reconstructionist or secular Jews who wanted to "return" to orthodoxy and become Torah observant end up being driven away instead. And every person like me whose ba'al teshuva experience ended up being a disaster has no choice but to tell others the truth of the situation - so many more couples never even try and find a sane rabbi in an honest program that will not keep them constantly in danger of "revoking" their spouse's conversion a decade or so from now when someone they've never met decides you aren't following the "proper" stringencies. Intelligent educated people aren't going to put up with that garbage. You are most certainly your own worst enemy - and ours, too. Do you really think that telling kids who have been Jewish all their lives that they "really" aren't is going to endear them to Orthodoxy? Will they jump through these idiotic hoops? Not hardly. Tropper and his cronies are going to have to stand in front of Hashem on judgement day and explain to Him just why these stringencies were more important to them than the children's souls - and there is no answer that will be acceptable. Tropper certainly deserves to burn in hell for his actions - and all the others with him. It's all about power and money and control - they don't give a rats rear end about the people they rope in with their lies. They just want to make their pond a bit bigger so they can pretend to be big fish. That's all we are to them - fodder for their inflated egos and ambitions.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

r.singer wrote:

"I'm one of those crazy fanatics who agrees intermarriage will finish what the Nazis couldnt complete--but I came to my conclusion from a hard learned personal lesson."

One interesting question is: which comes first - assimilation or intermarriage? Anecdotally, my observation is the former by far.

"Non halachic conversions unquestionably should be identified and either corrected or voided.
Are we accepting Jews-by-default now? If you've sorta beena a Jew long enough, you should be welcomed into the mashpacha?"

I suggest you research the Jewish legal history of the acceptance of such "questionable" conversions. The real history clearly indicates the authentic tradition is to find any way possible to accept such conversions. It's the strict approach being pushed by current Orthodox rabbis that goes against the tradition.

"My mother in explaining why she didnt want to correct her status when I offered to help her do it the right way, told me, "its what's in your heart that counts.." ahhh, mentschlichkeit:-)"

In her own way, she may have been more correct than you understand. Again, I suggest learning the history of this subject for what I suspect will be surprising information.

"Not knowing better I made the same arguement when I found out my own status after years of being taken for a Jew.

Conservative Judaism and the rabbi across the street from us, never said a word...and I naively tell rabbonim, 'but I "feel like a Jew" and "eveyone thinks I'm a Jew" so, aint I a Jew?. "

That Conservative rabbi may have been closer to the halachic mark than you currently understand with respect to accepting your status as a Jew. There are plenty of serious scholars from JTS than know the "real deal" when it comes to the history of halachic development - and it ain't always what your local Orthodox rabbi sez.

[r.singer]

Gentlemen:
It's Ms. Singer.
My father's family sat shiva for him for marrying my mother. He never had contact in my lifetime and I never knew them, only some names. I did however experience ferocious, blunt and in your face antisemitism from my mother's Italian catholic family.

I've thoroughly researched the rabbi and shul that 'converted' my mother; The
'orthodox' rabbi told her to take a dip in the waters off Long Island and bring 2 female friends with her as witnesses.
And, this all took place after I was born.
The conversion took place because as with many intermarriages, my father had a twinge of fear or guilt and wanted his daughter raised by a Jewish mother.

Let anyone tell me under any definition of halahic conversion, that this was al pi halacha? Maybe by reform standards, those are not my standards.
Even the frei Israeli kibbutz I lived and worked on told me my 'status' needed attention ASAP when I returned to the States.

It's become chic to toss the label "Nazi" on people, groups, activities who's behaviour, political stance or acitivities we dont like...its ugly enough when goyim do it, its unconscionable when Jews do it to one another.

While no one can judge another person for the act intermarriage is, we certainly have a system in place (shiva, shunning, excommunication--all of which my father experienced)that regards intermarriage as unacceptable.

Intermarriage is a conscious, deliberate decision and choice. But dont call it other than what it is or excuse it with personal circumstance, good goyim, ad infinitum--its one of the most destructive acts and its verboten.

As far as spooking away the incorrectly converted or misguided folk who think they're really Jewish by demanding they actually learn what being a Jew means, and commit to observance prior to a halachic conversion, if that's asking too much...I'm somehow reminded of Groucho's famous phrase, "I wouldnt want to be a member of any club that accepts me as a member."

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Beheima Tropper (400 pounds and growing) is an evil person, his actions left broken families, shattered lives and even dead bodies (Gideon Busch).

The fact that he like Kolko is allowed to operate and abuse in our community is a shame. Maybe UOJ can stop him from destroying more lives.

He does have his enablers: Tom Kaplan of Leor Energy, Susan Blond and chometz ben Yain (give me some gelt leibele) Reuven Feinstein.

Regarding the conversion issues, it is funny that Chabbad and the MO beleive they can work something with him and he will let them operate their basei din. yeah right !!

What Tropper hates most is MO, Chabbad, Bomzer and Noach Weinberg. by the way he is musmach of the sick weirdo Pinchas Sheinberg of ‘No Penetration No Harm Done’ and cousin of alleged child molester Shlomo Carlbach (check Awareness Center) So the previous comment about Gila and Rina does not surprise me.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Ms. Singer, I know nothing about your family history. In the general case, however, you offer only rhetoric, not facts. Please, do yourself a favor, go look into what I suggested. From the tone and content of your position, you're in for a big surprise when it comes to the traditional halachic position on accepting "questionable" conversion.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

I can add that rumor has it that when Tropper get the ultimate control on the North American Orthodox conversions he is going to retroactively nullifies all Bomzer conversions by saying (allegedly the way he interpreted Rav Moshe in Igros Moshe) that it is hediot beis din or even non kosher beis din.

[r.singer]

rhetoric shmetoric and the same goes for pushing the envelope in defining 'mi yehudi' and what to do.
With all respect, there's no doubt everyone here is light years ahead of me in every aspect of religious law etc. or is it possible (!) how we interpret these issues has changed since my parent's married and my own status came to light? I've already gone thru a halachic conversion B"H, its an academic exercise to backtrack and discover how everyone but the orthodox and chassidum view conversions.

If anyone should be clammering for 'open admissions' to the klal, you'd think it would be someone like me. Au contrare.

Having lived thru the impact of the deceptions and a conversion done expediently rather than halachically, my last word on this is, being Jewish is a priviledge. A priviledge not to be taken for anything less by diluting, interpreting, nit picking, and convoluting to make accomodations.

Here's an example...fact, not rhetoric. Erev shabbos the box of tzadekah food contained a chicken whose miltz was quite grey and withered. I mention the tzedakah point because its negayah. I ask husband, is this kosher... because I dont think we should use it. It's now close to 11pm Thurs nite. He calls Rav, Rav says come and bring chicken. Rav looks at miltz and says, I wouldnt eat it but its kosher for you, you can use it.

Choose your answer below:-)

1. We can use it because the Rav interpreted the law to acomodate 2 poor slobs who needed a chicken that he wouldnt allow on his table for him, his family and guests.
or
2. We can use it because the Rav has different standards depending on who's asking the question.
or
3) A brocha before eating over such a miltz renders the chicken kosher, what's the question? Next!

[Neo-Conservaguy]

4) Stop evading and go and learn what I suggested and then you'll be able to write intelligently on the subject of conversion.

I do not think it is an issue at all, people who want to live in (Modern) Orthodox community or to move to Israel can get an Orthodox conversion if not they can get an Conservative or Reform one.

If the children when they grow up want to be Orthodox they can start being observant and make sure they whip their ass with their right hand (if they are guys because of the tephilim ) or left hand if they are girls otherwise they would not considered Jews by the Orthodox and the children will be called Goyim.

If the children are Euro-Asian the parents should be extra careful because in beth yaakov and other schools they like to molest very young Asian girls.

If they do not care about which hand they wipe their ass can hang around and marry Reform or conservative Jews and not worry about anything (or at least not to worry about ass wiping or wearing denim clothes or wearing the wrong type of snood/burka)

.

[r.singer]

I understand reading the overemotioal subjective rants of a hysterical female isn't anyone's idea of fun, but instead of pushing me into traffic with blinders on, can you suggest something specific to read or do I just Google 'history of Jewish conversions' or ring up the JTS?

Mordechai:
Your thoughts are generous and kind. On her deathbed last year as I nursed her in a hospice for 4 months as was my duty, mother announced 'yashka' had abandoned her because her cancer had returned. Other than that, she was a lovely person.

Chabad's position on non-jewish relatives was be polite and keep your distance.

[Mordecai]

My dear friend S. Singer:

At the end of the day as we travel through this life filled with impediments and craziness, we have our faith and we also have each other. This beautiful thing called Judaism reminds me of a story about Benjamin Franklin.

Old Ben Franklin was asked by an erudite woman what kind of government we now have. He said: "Madame you have a Repiblic -- If you can keep it."

We all want to keep Judaism. ANd I suppose in our own ways we try to do that. But we are all lawed human beings, even the Rabbis.

[r.singer]

....dear Mordechai
On this erev shabbos, please accept my apologies for not offering more comforting words about your wife last night. It's hard to sit by, watching or caring for anyone so close.
One persistent human flaw is the need to 'idolize' a leader; I think its hard for those who are not chassidic to understand the attachment which is too often blind, with love--not stupidity. In light of that, the definition of "Judaism" --what and how to save it, becomes very complex as we cannot even agree on how to do an accurate 'headcount' of who is Jewish and how to fix this most fundamental problem. I keep thinking of the 'amnesty' discussion regarding 12 million immigrants; can't turn them back, so make them legal.
Ultimately, the people who entered from hard effort, did the right and legal thing, were somewhat foolish...its becoming clear that if you wait long enough, make enough noise, insist you have rights even if you obtained them illegally, you'll get what you want. The flaw seems to be lack of courage or will to do what is right, more than anything else. As we see this 'flaw' in govt. corporate and religious leaders, I suppose its symptomatic of our time.

gut shabbos...

[Isa]

Regarding the above with regard to illegal immigrants: Their children (or grandchildren) that are born here ARE USA citizens soooo eventually amnesty or not the problem will be solved.
BTW I have my lawn done by an illegal couple, good work too! Imagine ME working in the hot Texas sun, why I would have fallen over dead. Cops here will NOT arrest JUST because somebody here is illegal- keep your nose clean- find a job somehow- NO PRONBLEM!!!

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

Yona Loriner commented:
"shame on u failed ur retarded!!!

Posted by: yona loriner | November 01, 2007 at 05:47 PM "

I've googled him, and noticed that Yona Loriner has made some other interesting observations on other blogs...

http://blogs.nypost.com/travel/archives/2007/10/liveblog_carrot.html

[Shmarya]

Schmorgel (Borgel)–

Crown Heights kid with not much productive to do and with all the training in 'mentchlikeit' living in Crown Heights gives people. A living testament to Chabad schools and the community leaders who run them.

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

Hey Shmarya, don't be retarded! ;)

[Mordecai]

The Rabbi I referred to in the earlier post who wrote the article is Nissan Dovid Dubov
Rabbi Nissan D. Dubov is director of Chabad Lubavitch in Wimbledon, UK.

The article should be read in its entirety so that any person may draw their own conclusions as to the meaning conveyed by the author. Th website is

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108396/jewish/Intermarriage.htm

[in the know]

Leib Tropper was one of the main engineers of the Slifkin ban.

[Lev]

Monsey Tzaddik, thank you always for telling people WHO Troppper is and REMININDING about Gideon Busch--tagic victim of the "kiruv" graft!

[Lev]

tragic victim

[NCO Chassid]

Dear Ms. Singer,

I think you have it exactly right. It is false mercy to accept as a convert someone whose halachic status will be questioned years hence; it is real cruelty towards all those affected.

I find your words inspiring as well. I have a connection with [or a connection with a connection with] R' Tropper and I am sure he would be similarly inspired. I will try to get them to him.

As far as Neo-Conservaguy is concerned, I am not sure what he is referring to, but the traditional interpretations of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds do not support his claims [although, he may be misreading Shabbos 31a]. Perhaps he could make himself clearer.