Eternal Jewish Family: Belief in a Universe Older than 5768 Years is Heresy – Any Rabbi Holding This Belief Can NOT Serve as a Rabbinic Judge or Perfom Conversions; Most YU and Modern Orthodox Rabbis Therefore Banned

SR left this frightening comment on another post a few minutes ago. He does not know whether this account is true; apparently he saw it on another blog (which seems to be ExtremeGH). Can anyone confirm it?  UPDATE: CONFIRMED.

I just received a report from a friend of mine who attended the Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) conference here in Washington, DC. According to EJF's website, the goal of the conference was to discuss the creation of "universally accepted conversion[]" standards (see: http://www.eternaljewishfamily.o...gton/index.htm) . (Incidentally, I'm curious about who gave them the hetter to use the Internet.) This is my summation of my friend's report (to the best of my recollection).

First, in attendance were many of the "who's who" of "g'dolim" including, but not limited to, R. N. Eisenstein, R. R. Feinstein, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, in addition to many other well known dayanim and roshei yeshiva from America and Israel. Notably, the conference apparently was boycotted by several members of our local (greater Washington, D.C.) Va'ad (neither R. Anemer or R. Winter were in attendance, and the latter was maligned from the podium in front of hundreds of people for not supporting EJF's mission). On the other hand, several local rabbis, who serve in various capacities, were in attendance for various durations (hopefully, they were duped into showing up).

In any event, my friend tells me that R. N. Eisenstein declared, FROM THE PODIUM IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE CONFERENCE, in the name of R. Eliyashiv, that anyone who believes the world is older than 5000+ years is a kofer b'ikar, and is therefore unfit to serve as a dayan on a beis din, and that consequently any rabbi that holds such a view cannot perform conversions, not to mention that all of his conversions would be posul.

Similar such pronouncements were made about anyone who maintains that Chazal made any error in science or metzeius. Another "distinguished" speaker lamented that he saw a "supposed" dayan actually wearing some "brown" article of clothing and "smelled of cologne"; the EJF speaker commented something along the lines of, "can you imagine such a person serving as a dayan?"

In sum, the conference was not about establishing universal standards for geirus, but rather about establishing who's fit to be a dayan, and by extension, what does it mean to be an orthodox Jew. Indeed, in a private conversation with my friend, R. Eisenstein did not dispute that the effect of his pronouncement, in practice, would mean that no modern orthodox rabbi could sit on a beis din due to his philosophical, scientific, or historical beliefs, no matter how observant the rabbi is in all other respects.

Anyone who heretofore believed that the Israeli charedi g'dolim were not interested in imposing their standards and philosophy on Jews in the United States better wake up before our religion is hijacked by people who resemble those running Iran. But, such pronouncements also raise a broader philosophical problem -- who has the authority to define what Judaism is? This is a question I'm betting that most orthodox Jews always confidently pose and answer when talking to our non-observant, Conservative and Reform affiliated friends and relatives. What happens when the table is turned and those on the charedi right label us as kofrim? Are we going to continue to send our kids to their yeshivas and seminaries in Israel? Are we going to continue to hire the talmidim of the above speakers and conference attendees to teach our kids in our elementary and high schools? Are we going to put our heads in the sand and say "eilu v'eilu" about them while they will most certainly not say the same thing about YU?

Comments

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
It is interesting to note that at least one blogger had predicted such turn of events as a result of the Slifkin ban:
http://darkbluehat.blogspot.com/2005/06/can-you-rely-on-psak-of-someone-you.html
http://darkbluehat.blogspot.com/2005/06/burnable-heresy.html
It took a holocaust to at least temporarily deminish the machloikes between chassidim and misnagdim.
What will it take to end this one?
I wonder if the rabbis pushing this realize macro-economic and social implications of their actions.
If someone is a kofer he is also posul le'eidus.
If he is posel le'eidus this will drive up the costs of kashrus supervision.
It will invalidate many gittin creating children who are considered to be mamzerim and can't marry many other Jews.
There is nothing that forces such a ruling though as there are respectable precedents to rely on to avoid issueing it.
The gedolim of the previous generation didn't rush to issue such destructive rulings.
Of course there are also Torah sources that allow people like R. Fedlman , Berger, Gil Student the owner of this blog etc. to avoid branding Chabad heretical, but who said that Modern Orthodox camp lacks people who do stupid things?
Chareidim don't hold the monopoly on shtus.
Welcome to the brave new world...

[A]

After reading this blog and many others for the past year or two, I've ultimately concluded that Judaism will permanently spilt in much the same way Christianity has divded itself (Catholic, Protestant, etc.). No longer will we be one people.

This will be most difficult and gut wrenching for the traditional/modren orthodox, but if embraced will ultimately strength our numbers. I find it to be a sad commentrary on our people, but inevitable at this point. The drivel from this confernce, is only a drop in the bucket.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I guess "eternal" in Eternal Jewish Family means 5000 years old.

A: I hope the rational traditional camp will be strengthened in reaction to this, but I have a feeling they will be pulled rightward. How many MO rabbis are involved in chinuch? Not enough, so they hire black hats.

[Larry Lennhoff]

This is being spammed across lots of blogs, attributed to someone I don't recognized named mhs. I'm trying to get confirmation from someone with peripheral connections to EJF - I'm asking him to contact Rabbi Jacobs with the post above and asking him to confirm or deny. I don't know anyone who was at the conference, though.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H

Rabbi Yossi ben Elisha says in Tractate Shabbat (139a):

“If you see a generation that is beset by many troubles, go and examine the Judges of the Jewish People. For all the retribution that is visited upon the world is only on account of the sins of Jewish Judges, as it stated in Mikhah (3:9): Listen now, to this, O leader of the House of Jacob, and officers of the House of Yisra’el, who detest justice and twist all that is straight…”

If going around and declaring thousands of G-d fearing Jews heretics or the like is not
twisting all that is straight I am not sure what is....

[DK]

That would be awesome if it is true. Awesome.

[yidandahalf]

This post is completely off topic BUT Someone Who Is Capable MUST do something to edit the Wikipedia entries for Rubashkin. I have just seen one and,well, go see for yourselves. Please post about this someone, O.K.?

>>If going around and declaring thousands of G-d fearing Jews heretics or the like is not
twisting all that is straight I am not sure what is....

Then I will educate you on what is twisting all this is straight: when you attempt to maintain that heretics are "God fearing," you are doing just that. Your position is that such people are God feating. The consensus of the Jewish people and its leaders is that you don't know what you are talking about. This is not your fault: your own leader did not know what he was talking about, but that does not change anything. Its not your fault that you are not a well person. But, still you ought to leave everyone alone.

[Mordecai]

Has'nt the collective wisdom of several millenia of Jewish history taught us not to castigate fellow Jews as "heretic." ?

We Jews are quite apt at creating one CRACKPOT theory after another. The racist Tanya is but one example of many. And do not for a moment think this is limited to the "ultra-orthodox.

Reform Rabbi Ignaz Maybaum (who wrote Sacrifice of Isaac, Jewish Existence, and The Face of G-d After Auschwitz) believed that Auschwitz was not a unique event in Jewish history, but a reappearance of a time honored and holy event. Thus the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple was necessary for the diaspora which allowed Jews to spread G-D's work throughout the world. HE saw the Holocaust as a medium of spiritual development where JEws suffered for the atonement of sins of humankind. HE saw the destruction of Eastern European Jewry as "progress." Progress is understood by him as freeing of the Jew from halacha and the enabling of political emancipation of the Jew.

The point here is we have CRACKPOTS both from the left and the right. At least MM Schneerson believed it unconscionable for anyone to suggest that the Holocaust was brought upon the Jews as punishment. At least here Schneerson was on point, in my view, in warning of the frightening consequences in a morality that defers to no authority higher than man, and the great depths to which even the most progressive civilization can fall when man is allowed to become the ultimate arbiter of moral judgment.

[Yochanan Lavie]

The consensus of the Jewish people and its leaders is that you don't know what you are talking about.

Nope, that's the censensus of black hat wearing kosher Kool Aid drinkers. Most Jews are not Orthodox, and among the Orthodox not all are fundamentalists. And I don't accept the farbissneh Elyashiv as my "leader" simply because he knows more talmud than me.

Feel free to attack me personally, as your ilk are wont to do.

[Mordecai]

So Yochanan -- between you, me and the lamp-post, I think some of the themes in Fahrenheit 451 sheds some light on this subject.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I agree. If you ban books, you can rewrite history.

[Shmendrik]

Lavie, you missed the point, Anonymous 4:16 PM was responding to RebbeGod Sokolovsky.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmendrik: I disagree with Rabbi Sokolovsky's RebbeGod ideology. But his post seemed reasonable to me. He basically said that a torah-observant, God-fearing Jew should not be labeled a heretic simply because he believes the world is more than 5000 years old. Indeed, some of chazal would support a non-literal interpretation of Bereishit- that would leave open the possiblity of a 4 billion year old world. Anon 4:16 sloppily implied that a "consensus" of Jews and their leaders favor the ultra-literal interpretation. No such consensus exists. That is an extreme opinion of a small fraction of the Jewish people.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

Beheima (400 pounds and growing) rosho Tropper founder of EJF and Kol Eisav is striking again, he was the one who perpetrated the Slifkin ban. www.zootorah.com/controversy/account.html

He destroyed so many lives, he hates MO and he will expel studentsand call their job and complain to their manager if they dare to leave the yeshiva and pursued MO lifestyle, He will also call the student’s new rabbi and tell him lies about the student.

He canceled conversions because the girl did not cover her hair once or twice or the girl refused to drop out of college and to go to BT machon

He is the one who messed up the life of Gideon Busch, told him to drop out of medical school and pushed him to his death.

Rumor has it that with his new powers he retroactively going to nullify Bomzer’s conversions (MO/RCA).

you can search the archives for more horrors storied about this rosho.

The EJF is funded by Tom Kaplan of Leor Energy, he probably does not know what the behaima is doing in his money.

There is a contact page on their web site

http://www.leorenergy.com/t_kaplan.php

[r.singer]

does this mean....I ain't Jewish (again?)
LMAO
The ultimate cosmic joke.

[PP]

Gil Student on his blog wrote

I was able to confirm the statement with a reliable source who confirmed it with multiple attendees. It seems that R. Nachum Eisenstein did, in fact, say this. Presumably the RCA will have to deal with this in some way. Some of their members who perform geirus, like R. Barry Freundel, have public views on this matter (see R. Freundel's book, which has been quoted multiple times on this blog).

[Yos]

What if you're a Xtian who blindly embraces medieval BS science? Does that win them any points? Can you be a Muslim and believe the world is a disc resting on pillars and find favor with God over a MO fella?

I feel like I owe the Ayatollah an apology.

[Steve]

I'm surprised you didn't have anything to say about the Zemach Zedek permitting a rabbi who abused a boy to stay in his position (see the Seforim blog)

[Shmarya]

Steve,

Where? Please give me a link.

[mordecai]

My Friend R.Singer:

Think on "what is a Jew" as opposed to "who is a Jew." It will be far better for your psyche. Remember the rabbis have never been able to agree on anything. Even they could not agree on whether there should be a blue thread in the tzit tzit (Karaite view) or not. Do not defer to rabbis and give them hegemony over your mind. Do not let them burrow in to the obsidian recesses of your psyche.

If that does not work then read the following analysis that argues for patrilineal descent as opposed to matrilineal descent:

In the Biblical period, till the time of Ezra or beyond, patrilineal descent determined the status of a child, so the children of the kings of married to non-Jewish wives were unquestionably Jewish. This was equally true of other figures. Furthermore, our tradition has generally determined lineage (yihus) through the father, i.e., in all valid but originally forbidden marriages. This was also true for priestly, Levitical and Israelite lineage which was and continues to be traced through the paternal line (Nu. 1.2, 18; Yad Hil. Issurei Biah 19.15; Shulhan Arukh Even Haezer 8.1) Patrilineal descent XCIV(1984), 174-179 (CARR 61-68)

The proof for patrilineal descent can be observed throughout the TaNaKh.

Schocken Translation: Lev. 24:10 -12 Now the son of an Israelite woman went out -he was (also) the son of an Egyptian man- amid the Children of Israel; and they scuffled in the camp, the son of the Israelite-woman and a (fully) Israelite man. Now the son of the Israelite woman reviled the Name, and insulted (it), so they brought him to Moshe -now the name of his mother (was) Shelomit daughter of Divri, of the tribe of Dan and they put him under guard, to clarify it for them by order of YHWH.

Contrast this situation to a King of whose mother was an Amonite:

1 Kings 21. And Rehoboam the son of Solomon ruled in forty-one years of age was Rehoboam when he became king and seventeen years he reigned in Jerusalem, the city that the Lord had chosen to place His Name there out of all the tribes of Israel, and his mother's name was Naamah the Amonitess.

2Ch 12:13 So king Rehoboam strengthened himself in Jerusalem, and reigned: for Rehoboam [was] one and forty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name [was] Naamah an Ammonitess.

2Ch 12:5 Then came Shemaiah the prophet to Rehoboam, and [to] the princes of Judah, that were gathered together to Jerusalem because of Shishak, and said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Ye have forsaken me, and therefore have I also left you in the hand of Shishak.

2Ch 11:17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

2Ch 12:16 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.
There was never a question that Rehoboam was a valid Jewish King.

The Rabbis may think they are closer to G-D my friend but have you ever thought the opposite is true in many cases?

Remeber the Yiddish Proverb: The nearer to the shul the further from G-D. Believe me there is truth to that one.

Much of Jewish polemic is nothing more than casuistry and sophistry at its worst.

[Steve]

check out the last seforim blog in one of the notes

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yos: The modern Catholic Church is actually more open to science that right-wing Orthodox Judaism (as opposed to MO). They admitted their mistake with Galileo, and even embraced evolution (with an intellegent design spin- but still). The Christians who are "medieval" are usually Protestant Fundamentalists.

Mordecai: Yashar koach. As I have said elsewhere, I would accept patrilinear, except for the fact that it is too divisive. (In my heart I accept partilinear Jews who feel a part of Am Yisrael, but I won't count them in a minyan).

R. Singer: You are more Jewish than most.

>>Lavie, you missed the point, Anonymous 4:16 PM was responding to RebbeGod Sokolovsky.

Let's see if an MO can give an apology for a mistake . . .like that will ever happen.

Ariel's posts are usually about himself. I am sure he meant to include his brand of God fearing Jew into the mix when he made his comment. Its important to distinguish heretics who say they are God fearing Jews from God fearing Jews who are labeled as heretics. Ariel is an heretic. He is a naar, an am hooretz, a boor. Moridin v'lo maalin.

Anon: You are correct in saying Ariel is a heretic (however, I like him personally). I would never defend the deification of the rebbe or any other human being. However, a broken clock occasionally tells the correct time. You are correct in saying he had himself partially in mind when he made his post. But he was also defending non-fundamentalists. As far as that goes, I agree with him. Rabbi S. is well-meaning, and in some sense of the word he is God fearing. However, his idolization of the rebbe is heretical and misguided.

I hope this clears things up.

(BTW, I am too heterodox in my opinions, and too lax in my praxis, to be classified as MO. I call myself Traditional. But I daven in an MO synagogue.)

[Yochanan Lavie]

The previous post is by Yochanan Lavie. I don't know why the computer didn't save my info.

[Jim the Catholic]

>Yos: The modern Catholic Church is actually more open to science that right-wing Orthodox Judaism (as opposed to MO). They admitted their mistake with Galileo,

Actually they have always been open to science. Nobody bothered Copernicus & he was even honored by the Pope. Galileo OTOH was a shmoe who plagerized some of his theories from a Jesuit who had powerful friends. The result was predictable.

>and even embraced evolution (with an intellegent design spin- but still). The Christians who are "medieval" are usually Protestant Fundamentalists.

There are Catholic Young Earth Creationists, the Church allows this view along with Old Earth Creationist views & Theistic Evolutionist views. Naturally it condemns Atheistic Evolution. Ironically among certain Catholic Fiat Creationists there is a small minority who actually believe in Geocentracism. They will actually use Einstein's theory of relative motion(motion is dependant on the viewpoint of the observer) to rationalize it.

Naturally I am unmoved by such arguments.

[Mordecai]

Jim the Catholic:

It was only when Gallileo published a book in the form of a dialogue between a scientist and a catholic religious reader in which the religious leader was mocked and made to look stupid did the Pope begin to persecute him.

Therefore, I have always felt that the attack upon Gallileo though in the guise of religion was really personal in nature. Perhaps I am mistaken but that is my take on it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jim: I heard a Chabad rabbi use the same argument for the geocentric theory! So much for not being influenced by the "goyim!" You Christians have a saying: The Scripture is a mirror. You cannot have a jackass peer into it, and have an apostle peer out of it. Amen.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jim: Check this out:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/IK06Aa01.html

[A perplexed reader]

Mordecai, why do you assume that Solomon's wife the Amonite did not convert?

[Dave]

Yochanan, excellent post. The mesichists/ elokists have been able to get "traction" on their heretical view that the Rebbe is G-d precisely because we as Jews have sadly bifurcated into basically two schools of thought:
1. The Torah Mi'Sinai crowd, who basically have the attitude, Na'aseh ve nishmah, and let's not talk about theology at all, just do mitzvot.
2. everyone else (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, secular, etc.) who basically have the attitude that Judaism has some good ideas which we accept and follow, and let's not talk about theology at all, let's just do Jewish cultural stuff (whatever that is) and social action.
So no-one wants to talk about theology and beliefs at all, so how can we argue with anyone when they arguably do mitzvot and Jewish cultural stuff, as the mesichtim/ elokistim certainly do? I agree that some Christian groups have overdone the theology/ beliefs bit, but we as Jews are nowadays totally minimizing our theology to the point of absurdity, to the point where many Orthodox groups could theoretically accept an atheist Orthoprax person and many liberal groups could theoretically accept an atheist Cultural Jew.
Actually many Jews across the full spectrum could probably accept and believe (even with a liberal interpretation) fundamentals 1-5, and 10, and 11 of the Rambam's 13 fundamentals of the faith. I do, and I'm not even Orthodox.

[Dave]

Also, as part of this whole trend, I notice that Nevi'im and Kethuvim are really minimized in importance compared to the Chumash/Humash. I certainly agree that Chumash study is very important, but I propose a radical- let's minimize Midrash and Kabbalah, and boost emphasis on Neviím, Kethuvim and Mussar, of course with Chumash being pre-eminent. In fact I think Kabbalah studies should be totally de-emphasized and dumped.

[scared shit]

the powers that be, those being the social pressures of the community(the rabbinic establishment) are intrested in continuty.the fact that there was an accepted sefer holding the worlds renewal at 50.000 yrs(yovel yrs) at the time of the ari z"l doesnt seem to matter. the fact of fixing the opininion at 5700 plus seems to be achdut of the teaching method so diffrent schools wouldnt collide.there are enough machlokets on everything else

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: Evangelical Christians know Tanach better than Jews do. That is why Jews for Jesus and the like are so successful. Not only should we dump kabbalah, but we should limit gemara. It's important for everyone to have a taste of it, but apart from dedicated scholars Tanach is more important. (There are those who disagree with me, and I respectfully differ).

[Dave]

Yochanan,
I agree with you.
I am going to post later as to some anti-missionary and outreach ideas I have.
However, my main feeling is that even if someone is not a great Torah scholar (I am not), Jews for Jesus can have no "traction" with any Jew who has "internalized" the concept of G-d's Oneness (the Muslims call it "tawheed"- I am not sure what we call it in Hebrew). As Rambam said Hashem is "a Unity unlike any other unity", and then he went to explain further. This is a such a primordial faith concept in Judaism, that is a strong rock to hold onto.

[Lev]

Dave, you take it all to seriosly.
Just the maddnessof contemprorary society, that's all.
Helllooo, A Perplexed Reader.
What is your grandparents name?
Mine is Yosef Meerovich Shmookler, zul zain gezunt, and Yakov Aron-Wolfovich HaLevi Royzengurten o'h.