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November 14, 2007

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The answer should be a combination of offering Hebrew language as an elective in mainstream puiblic schools(why should everything be Spanish?)and afternoon Talmud Torahs. A generation ago, this was the common setup. In NYC, many public schools had Hebrew as an elective. In my shul, there is an old Hebrew language textbook written by the chairman of the Hebrew Dept. of Thomas Jefferson (public) High School! The only thing people learn about our culture nowadays is the Holocaust. An elective, of course, would be secular and open to all. Christians and Muslims would also be interested, and that's fine.

Talmud Torahs varied in quality. Some were like "Hebrew Schools" which sucked. Others were high quality afternoon yeshivot. Because they only offered limudei kodesh, they were more cost effective than today's pricey day schools.

Hebrew electives would give students language literacy. Talmud torahs would provide religious and cultural instruction relatively inexpensively. I want to steer between the Scylla of religious fanaticism and the Charybdis of secular blandness.

(Disclosure: I went to public schools and Reform Hebrew schools up until Bar Mitzvah, and an MO yeshiva day school for High School- my choice).

> Another concern I have are Muslim charter schools and the potential for their radicalization.

Didn't they open one of those in New York recently where all instruction would be in Arabic? They're ahead of the curve on this one.

The vast majority of teachers in day schools are certainly not engaged in what you imply. Your post borders on slander.

Steinhardt's prescription for secular Jewish charter schools won't work. The Jewish identity is too tied up with the Jewish religion to survive in the enforced secular atmosphere of a public school. (And even the Moslems get away with trashing the constitution in their charter schools, we won't). And this is hardly an Orthodox idea. Arthur Hertzberg, a self-confessed apikorus and kofer beikur said the same thing in an essay published in Commentary. And Mordechai Kaplan, who was anything but Orthodox, said the same thing his entire life.

Meanwhile, allow me to defend my difficult friend Marvin Schick. It is true that "he has worked for and advocated his entire adult life is for Federations to fund Orthodox Jewish education." However, of late, he has castigated the Orthodox community for its lax support of day schools as well. You can read recent columns and articles in both the Jewish Press and the Jewish Observer to that effect.

Finally, one can't talk about "Marvin Schick's friends over at Agudath Israel of America" because he doesn't have many left. He has been criticizing them for so long that he now outside the PC pale, an occasional JO article notwithdstanding.

My post borders on slander?

Please.

The men you shill for enabled the molestations done for 40 years by Rabbi Yehuda Kolko. They covered for and protected many other rabbis who molested children, and some who are still molesting.

One rabbi-molester can have dozens, even hundreds of victims.

Start counting the molested children.

Your post borders on slander because it implies that most, if not all, teachers in day schools are involved in this conduct.

Those that are guilty can be hung, for all I care; their enablers can also be hung. I "schill" for no one.

The problem in your post is that you impute the conduct at Tora Temmima to all day schools and yeshivos ("Marvin Schicks day schools") Let the guilty suffer and the innocent be left alone.

P.S. If the Orthodox really wanted political power, they would send their son and daughters to public school. the level of obervance may go down, but greatly less than imagined, but the amount of disposable income among Orthodox Jews would go up sun=bantially, thus increasing political power exponentially.

If you do not believe this, look to the Mormons and Amish, both of whom do not mainatain their own chool systems and do quite well. based on observance and political power.

"If you do not believe this, look to the Mormons and Amish, both of whom do not mainatain their own chool systems and do quite well. based on observance and political power."

The Mormons have political power in Utah, because they are the majority of the population. Their power in neighboring states is limited to where their concentration of people allow them to influence government, public schools, culture. However, in Washington, their power is nil.

The Amish have no political power since they don't even vote. However, they do have their own elementary schools; post elementary education is nonexistent. If you want to read more about Amish education, go back to Wisconsin v. Yoder, a 1972 supreme court case. (406 U.S. 205).

Still unable to read a simple paragraph, I see.

Process:

I'd also point of the following: Marvin Schick's friends over at Agudath Israel of America have worked tirelessly to oppose mandated background checks and other security measures meant to protect religious school children from teachers who sexually abuse them.

If Marvin Schick's day schools (many if not most of which are yeshivas) want to expand their base, they might first try protecting the students they currently enjoy from the rabbis who are, shall we say, enjoying them.

1.Agudath Israel BLOCKS measures meant to protect religious school children.
2. Marvin Schick is close to Agudath Israel.
3. Marvin Schick has, to my knowledge, never called for mandatory background checks or any of the other safeguards his friends at Agudath Israel oppose.
4. Therefore, since Agudath Israel both OPPOSES safeguards and has prominent members and leaders who have COVERED for rabbi-child molesters, and since Agudath Israel is the major umbrella organization for American haredim, my point is not only valid, it is perfectly logical.

Shmarya:

Marvin Schick is not particularly close to Aguath Israel anymore; he's been critizing them way too much, although for things with which you might not agree. Also, you talk of "Marvin Schick's day schools (many if not most of which are yeshivas" Marvin Schick has been a tireless promoter of non-yeshiva day schools as well. Although he does see them as kiruv vehicles, he still supports them even when they don't measure up to the haredi standards. In his capacity as president of RJJ, he arranged for RJJ to take over the bankrupt Foundation School in Staten Island, a co-educational, modern day school, and has been maintaining it as such for the past 18 years.

Marvin Schick is difficult, he is a kvetcher and can be a crybaby. He acts all too often as a shill for the right wing. But he is not a mindless Agudah drone, and he is capable of criticizing them for their faults as he sees them.

Marvin Schick is difficult, he is a kvetcher and can be a crybaby. He acts all too often as a shill for the right wing. But he is not a mindless Agudah drone, and he is capable of criticizing them for their faults as he sees them.

Unfortunately for children, he does not seem to see Agudath Israel's refusal to protect children from predatory rabbis as worthy of note or criticism.

To Reisman: Even if I am wrong about Amish scfhools, my point is still valid. Orthodox Jews are concentrated geographically, and will remain so for obvious reasons. Although it will most probably never happen, imagine if all the children in Yeshivos currently transferred to public schools. They would constitute the majority in their neighborhood schools and the education they receive, within bounds, would inevitably reflect that, just as public education throughout hye city reflects the ethnic norms of the population.

In the long run Orthodox Jews would be more numerous, more wealthy, better secularly educated and somewhat less observant of Torah and Mitzvos. Poltically, they would be stronger, because they would need les favors and have more money.

"And Mordechai Kaplan, who was anything but Orthodox, said the same thing his entire life."

Don't forget, Kaplan helped found the Young Israel movement (they would like you to forget, though). He knew something about Orthodoxy at the time.

Kaplan also started The Jewish Center on 86th Street in Manhattan, the first "shul with a pool." It was, and remains, Modern Orthodox, even though other JCC's are now either Conservative or secular.

Back in the day, JTS was an Orthodox institution, and its graduates filled pulpits in Shearith Israel (MO, Sephardic) and the British Empire (Hertz of Chumash fame). It almost merged with YU. History would have been better if it did- maybe the excesses of the current crop of denominations wouldn't have arisen.

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