Waiting Between Meat and Milk

Why do kashrut-observing Jews wait an amount of time between eating meat and then eating milk? Why does that time vary between communities? Why is the time we wait between milk and then eating meat (usually) much less than the time we wait between eating meat and then milk?

The Jerusalem Post has a great article by Rabbi Shlomo Brody on the halakhic history of waiting between milk and meat and vice versa.

Read it carefully and you'll see the layers of halakha added on by generations of rabbis, and you'll see the original baseline – no waiting at all. In fact, it seems to me the whole idea of waiting grew from a rabbinic pietist movement centered in Babylonia in early Talmudic times. Clearly the Torah does not envision waiting and there seems to be no trace of the custom in any biblical or even mishnaic source. King David (if he really existed) did not wait. Neither did Ezekiel or Hillel or Shammai.

Strange, one might mistakenly think, for a practice that is emblematic of Orthodoxy – but not when one considers other Orthodox practices like the tish, rabbis without real jobs, kollel 'til you're 50, kapparot, bar and bat mitzva, and so many others that have no biblical or mishnaic sources either. (Yes, all those Satmar children's books with ancient Israelites wearing shtreimels and tallesim are wrong. I hope this doesn't rock Williamsburg.)

Can you think of any other Orthodox practices that have no biblical or mishnaic source? If so, mention them in the comments section below. Thanks…

Comments

[The Beadle]

I thought that was common knowledge? Is this really news to some people?

[Aharon Varady]

Tashlich. But the problem isn't the custom... it's the idea that in order for the custom to be valid it has to be validated by an ancient source. This leads people to be either 1) intellectual dishonest about the history, or else 2) believers in a so-called "authentic" Judaism that is biblical or mishnaic. I think the best attitude is to appreciate all of these customs, but recognizing that some are really harmful (like kapparot) and inconsistent with Torah values like tza'ar baalei chayim.

[Fleishike Kishke]

Not cutting your nails sequentially, not stepping over people, not opening an umbrella in the house. Breaking plates and cups at weddings to pacify the mazikim. $3,000 human hair wigs to replace your own. Black hats. Not looking during the priestly blessing. Red strings to ward off evil. Not eating food in even numbers. Spending $100,000 on a wedding. Spending $10,000 + yearly on Yeshiva tutition. Men dunking themselves in a filthy stinking communal bathtub.

[yona loriner]

anti semite

[Garnel Ironheart]

First of all, the bat mitzvah was not an Orthodox invention but rather a Reconstructionist idea that somehow became standard throughout almost the entire Jewish world.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with customs and rituals like tashlich, or doing kapparos with money, or not stepping over people, as long as one remembers this are just customs, the spice one adds to the dish without it being essential to it. It adds colour to what otherwise might be monotonous daily behaviour. It's only when it becomes a new "halachah" that it becomes a problem.

[Garnel Ironheart]

And as for the Rabbi Brody article, the thick Artscroll Kashrut book starts off by going through the history of how the 6 hour rule developed from essentially nothing. So there's no chidush here if even Rabbeinu Arthur Scroll admits it.

[Yochanan Lavie]

What about wearing a yarmulke when not davening or eating? Isn't that an innovation about 400 years old or so? (NB: the word yarmulke is from the Polish word for cap, which is almost identical).

[SA]

"other Orthodox practices like the tish, rabbis without real jobs, kollel 'til you're 50, kapparot, bar and bat mitzva, and so many others that have no biblical or mishnaic sources either."

Orthodox Jews do NOT practice all these things you mentioned.

Rabbis do have real jobs. What does that mean? How else do they pay their bills?

Many people work and do not stay in kolel until they're 30, much less until 50, and even then, kolel is their grad school to be knowledgeable effective Jewish clergymen.

Kapparos can be done without tzaar baalei chaim; if you cannot, then do it with money, which is what many people do. Rather than knocking the entire practice, why not mention that using money is accepted as a kapparos method.

A non-ostentatious Bar Mitzvah party is a wonderful celebration IF its theme conveys to the boys that they should be happy (unlike the blog owner, it seems) to be assuming the ol mitzvos, the obligation to fulfill the Torah commandments.

I don't know if this sits well with you or your readers, but we have a concept that a universally accepted minhag is kiHalacha - even if a practice started as a minhag, if (most) people came to adopt it, it is like halacha, and must be kept by future generations.

As for the kabbalistic stuff like cutting nails, not stepping over people, etc., does it really bother you that much? If it does, ask a reliable orthodox rabbi (there are many - seek and you shall find) if you need to worry about these practices. Take it from there.

[Mordecai]

Here is a Karaite Jewish exlpanation of this matter:

The main principle underlying Karaite Judaism can be summed up by a statement attributed to Anan ben David: "Don't rely upon me, but study diligently the Holy Scripture." Hence, according to Karaite belief, every person has the ability to comprehend the word of the Torah, and intermediaries are not required to mediate between humans and God. As a result, rabbis are never elevated to saintly status as they are in some Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish traditions. Additionally, although Karaites do have books of commentary, they are not regarded as binding documents that dictate human action.

Karaite interpretations of the Bible may also be more literal than those of Rabbinite Jews. For example, the passage from Exodus that prohibits the seething of a kid in its mother's milk is taken at its word and does not require the separation of all meat and all milk.

Karaism rejects the Oral Law because the Torah is regarded as perfect and complete on the basis of the following passage: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Jehovah, your God, which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2)

[Garnel Ironheart]

Mordecai, Karaites reject the oral law because their founder was rejected from being the prince of his Jewish community lo these many centuries ago. Your sect is the result of Jewish political infighting, not a special understand of Scripture.

Besides, I'd hate the Karaite version of justice if I had to undergo it. Imagine: an eye for eye being taken literally! Do you guys still sell your 3 year old daughters to older rich men on a whim? And how do you decide what "rest" on Shabbos means since your "perfect" Torah only mentions not cooking or lighting fires? Oh right, you don't get much chance to study on Shabbos because you don't use lights and sit in the dark. Fun!

[Ahavah]

Garnel, you should be ashamed of yourself.

That bunk about "rejected from being a prince" is total talmudic hogwash - self-serving propaganda of the rabbis with no historical basis whatsoever. I'll bet your Rabbi also told you that Karaite synagogues are so small they can't get a minyan (that's what my Rabbi claimed when asked about them) - which always amuses the tens of thousands of Karaites in Israel and Eastern Europe.

God is not an uptight anal retentive control freak - men are. There is NO NEED for every community to do things just alike (and "rest" is anything that you don't do for money or make someone else do for you for money - that's not rocket science). That power-mongering picture of God comes from the warped imagination of power-mongers.

Even as late as Maimonides time (12th century) there were dozens and dozens of (written) Torah observant communities who rejected the so-called "oral Torah" because THEY'D NEVER HEARD OF IT. That's a fact you can check in any objective history source (ie written by an actual historian who is not an orthodox rabbi). The idea of a "secret" oral code communicated from Sinai only to an "elite" group a complete and total fabrication by a bunch of European Jews who believed in the racial superiority of white people (and still do), based on the also-arrogant and racist practices of a bunch of Babylonian-contaminated returnee theologians under Ezra who looked down on the authentic near easterners who stayed in Eretz Israel and who believed they had the right to re-write scripture and history to suit themselves.

Spouting off junk that can be easily debunked by a ten year old with a Britanica doesn't do much for your credibility. That fake superiority of yours is disgusting - casting everyone else as "former hangers-on with grudges" is not only not historically true but shows that you yourself are not mature enough to admit that historical fact weighs in heavily against any so called "continuity from Sinai" - especially the idiotic attempt to pass off medieval polish customs as near eastern revelation.

[Mordecai]

My frined G. Ironheart:

I am not a Karaite. The post was illustrative of the fact that there are many interpretations as may be made to scripture. But if you do not like the fact that Karaites rejected the Oral Law because of "political infighting" explain why the Saduccess did not accept "Oral Law."

Furhter in fairness to the Karaites they did not reject the "Oral Law." They simply did not see it as a oral transmission of G-D to Moses. They saw it as the work of flawed human men. In fact they studied it because they many things in Talmud that was useful. They parted company as to the issue of it being the word of G-D.

Also in fairness to the Karaites they were not, as many believe, just literal interpretationits. They did however believe in interpretation. If they were literal interpretationists they would have killed their disobedient sons pursuant to the commandment in Devarim.

Though I am not a Karaite I try to be curious. I feel our Jewish heritage is rich. And I will not condemn the Karaites as heretics as I will not condemn the Satmar, Ger, or others.

[Garnel Ironheart]

The Saducees were Hellenists who rejected the Oral Law because they weren't particularly interested in the Written Law either but had a harder time justifying such a radical step.
As for Karaism, it is well known that they were born out of political fight and the way their founder decided to make his group distinct was to dump the Oral Law. He then wound up creating justification for that.
Third, if the Karaites are literal interpretationists, what is the basis for their intepretations? Can anyone interpret anything any which way they want? Isn't that what Christians do with our Bible? If they're literalists, they can't have it both ways.
Finally, Karaites are NOT considered Jews and this fact saved their lives during the WW 2 because the Nazis were prepared to slaughter them until they were told they they weren't Jewish.

[Shmarya]

Actually, if I remember correctly, Karaites don't need to convert and there have been many marriages between them and us over the centuries.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Not always. See this:
http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/judaism/kara.html

Again we miss the point. I once spoke with an Orthodox Rabbi about some Karaite scholars. His response:
"The Karaites had no scholars." As the Latins would say: "Res Ipsur Loquitur" --- the thing speaks for itself. Hence we are in the State we are in -- a horribly divided Jewish people with little tolerance for one another. 70% of us do not give a rat's behind and the remaining 30% will argue till death do us part.

[Shmarya]

GI –

Intermarriage with non-Karaite Jews is forbidden.

In other words, Karaites did not always accept us as Jews – we, however, accepted them.

[Isa]

Regarding:""""Actually, if I remember correctly, Karaites don't need to convert and there have been many marriages between them and us over the centuries.""""
A Sephardi Rav was faced with this question about marriage to a Karaite and he could not get a straight answer, this he told me. BTW this was NOT in Minnesota

[Yochanan Lavie]

I have done much studying in this area, because I considered becoming a Karaite at one time. The Karaites (and the Christians for that matter) do have an interpretive tradition. However, they also encourage people to study and interpret for themselves.

The non-Jewish "karaites" who saved themselves during WWII were Gentiles who took upon themselves a karaite form of relgion without converting (Karaites require non-Jews to convert to their form of Judaism). This particular community was similar to modern day Noachides; they saw themselves as righteous gentiles rather than Jews. The rabbis, of course, concurred, so they were spared.

It is very easy for a rabbinic Jew to become a karaite. They simply have to declare allegience to the Written Law only, in front of a Karaite congregation. No formal conversion ceremony is needed, unlike for a non-Jew who wishes to become a Karaite Jew.

I finally decided to stay with rabbinic Judaism for reasons I don't want to get into. However, I developed a newfound respect for the alternative Karaite tradition.

History is written by the victors, and since the rabbinic brand of Judaism has won, it has distorted the message of Karaism. (And also developed a self-serving mythology that makes Moshe Rabbenu a streimel-wearing rebbe). In theology, this is called "triumphalism," the idea that success means that God endorses your beliefs (or that your beliefs are correct). Christians, Muslims, and now atheists have used this pov aganist us.

Meanwhile, if you want to hear what they say for themselves, click on www.karaitekorner.com. Just like you wouldn't want Jews for Jesus to speak for us, so too should they be allowed to speak for themselves.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

As the Latins would say: "Res Ipsur Loquitur"

Res ipsa loquitur

[Mordecai]

To My Brother Yochanan:

Once again you show yourself to be a voice of reason and demonstrate that we Jews can have a dialogue and should have a dialogue.

[Sephardic-Male]

this idea of "kol isha" which say men should not ,listen to women singing is not foun in the torah like most of the rules in orthodoxy this is also a man made invention.

[Yos]

Kol Isha, yeah. As a kid that one always made me laugh. Nothing turns me on like a tone-deaf grandma screeching in Yiddish.

[yona loriner]

the fact that t bothers u so much shows a guilt on ur end for not being a part of it!

[Michael]

If you look at the different opinion in times and the places they come from, you see that the time between waiting between meat and milk is also the normal time between people eating - indeed, in Holland, the snack trolly would roll around once every hour. In the Germany area, once every three hours. Coincidence?

[mb]

If you look at the different opinion in times and the places they come from, you see that the time between waiting between meat and milk is also the normal time between people eating - indeed, in Holland, the snack trolly would roll around once every hour. In the Germany area, once every three hours. Coincidence?

Posted by: Michael | October 28, 2007 at 07:54 PM

Nonsense!

[Isa]

Regarding:"""If you look at the different opinion in times and the places they come from, you see that the time between waiting between meat and milk is also the normal time between people eating - indeed, in Holland, the snack trolly would roll around once every hour. In the Germany area, once every three hours. Coincidence?"""

In the far past ,my orthodox (MO) rabbi said about the same thing- it was the time between meals

[Dave]

This is a fascinating topic.
I am not Orthodox. I am thinking hard about becoming mostly Orthoprax. I think that anyone who has really studied the shrinking state of the Jewish people today, should really consider that- whatever happened in the past- this is now, and Karaite Jews have a lot to contribute. For one thing, even though they are a tiny group, they have some great ideas, which should be promoted In Preference to Reform, Reconstructionist and Humanist Judaism.

[Dave]

Put it this way, if I had a bazillion dollars to spend, I would promote the following groups:
left wing MO (Yeshivah Chovevei Torah)
UTJ (Union for Traditional Judaism)
MKM (Modern Karaite Movement)
Samaritan Israelites
SHAS

Looking at the Karaite site and reading about what they have to say . . . I must say, it actually makes a lot of sense!

[mb]

Regarding:"""If you look at the different opinion in times and the places they come from, you see that the time between waiting between meat and milk is also the normal time between people eating - indeed, in Holland, the snack trolly would roll around once every hour. In the Germany area, once every three hours. Coincidence?"""

In the far past ,my orthodox (MO) rabbi said about the same thing- it was the time between meals

Posted by: Isa | October 28, 2007 at 08:34 PM

Look at the Rema. It is related to time between meals on Shabbat in northern winters. Not snack trollys as somebody suggested!

[yona loriner]

this guy failed makes up stories!!!!!!

[yona loriner]

this guy failed makes up stories!!!!!!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Mordecai. I enjoy your comments, too.

Sephardic Male: As you may know, the Yeminite Jews (long payot and all) have an ancient of tradition of women singing the diwan. It is a collection of very beautiful songs that blends Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic seamlessly. Ofra Haza recorded some of it. The women would sing to mixed company. The songs were religious, not sexual. It is a beautiful, holy tradition. Kol isha is an innovation (and a bad one in my opinion- it tells women to shut up in public).

[Music Fan]

I'm another one who finds "kol isha" to be a lousy innovation that should be jettisoned straightaway.

There is no Torah source for it. In fact, the references we do have for women singing in Torah seem to indicate the singing was done in mixed company.

Why is there no "kol ish" for women? They can listen to men sing. What? Women have never been known to swoon, faint, or scream wildly when listening to attractive male singers?

Sure, there have been, and are attractive, female performers who have been marketed on their sexuality (Madonna, Pussycat Dolls, Britney Spears, etc.). However, most of the people who buy and listen to their music are actually young women. The males would rather just watch their videos or put their pictures up on the wall. Their vocal talent (or lack of it, depending) is irrelevant to the males. If they didn't record or sing at all, it would make no difference to their male "fans".

To the real appreciator of music, it is the performer's ability to sing, or write a good song, or perform the song with a certain quality that really matters.

Hence, there are many well-appreciated female singers who are not conventionally attractive: k.d. lang, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Janis Joplin, Patti Smith, Annie Lennox, P.J. Harvey, etc. I'm sure that most men who go see Patti Smith live are not having sexual fantasies about her.

This is not to say that being attractive doesn't help the attractive singers who do have talent (Nora Jones, Regina Spektor, Fiona Apple, Amanda Palmer of the Dresden Dolls, etc.), but rather that such singers are appreciated by, and have many, male fans for reasons much beyond than their level of attractiveness.

[Yos]

Everything in Torah assumes women are either cold or are more able (and willing) to control themselves. No, I'm being generous. It just assumes they're cold. But if everything based on baseless assumption were to be removed, what would be left?

[Anon]

Shmarya, are you proposing that the customs, whenever instituted, relating to waiting between milk and meat be abolished?

[Anon]

"What about wearing a yarmulke when not davening or eating? Isn't that an innovation about 400 years old or so?

The custom of covering one's head is referenced in the Talmud so it clearly is more than 400 years old. While it originally was a custom, at some point int time it achieved, according to many poskim, force of law (including in the opinion of Rabbi Karo in the Shulchan Aruch). Rabbi Karo died more than 400 years ago and it is clear that by then the custom was nearly universaly adopted among observant jews.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Covering a male's head when praying: yes. Other times: no. There are large groups of religious Jews that do not have the tradition of covering their heads at other times, including many Sephardim who accept R. Karo's positions as definitive.

[Anon]

"Covering a male's head when praying: yes. Other times: no. There are large groups of religious Jews that do not have the tradition of covering their heads at other times, including many Sephardim who accept R. Karo's positions as definitive."

I have no quarrel with those whose custom is not to cover one's head other than during prayer, however that is clearly not R' Karo's position. (There is some question as to whether R' Karo ruling that it is required applies indoors as well as outdoors, but it certainly was not limited to during prayers.)

[Alex]

Orthodox Jews are caligynephobic. XD

[Dave]

I am Sephardic. We have the tradition of men covering their heads only when studying Torah or praying. In the old country/ countries, most of our rabbonim used to wear some form of head covering all the time, but they did not require or expect their male congregants to do so.
By the way, I read that the Vilna Gaon said that head covering was by no means obligatory at any other time (other than praying or studying Torah).
If someone wants to do something obligatory, one should wear talit katan/ tzitzit. That's mandated by the Torah.

[Shmarya]

The GRA held it was nothing more than a pious custom and that one could pray, eat, etc., without a head covering.

And even though the custom is mentioned in the Talmud, the observance of that custom was by no mean universal or absolute.

[Shmarya]

And tzitzit are only mandatory *if* one is wearing a four cornered garment. Otherwise, it's only a custom.

[Anon]

"By the way, I read that the Vilna Gaon said that head covering was by no means obligatory at any other time (other than praying or studying Torah)."

There is a disagreement among halachic authorities (dating back many years) whether wearing a kippah is obligatory or not (even though it clearly originated as a custom), so if this is truly the the Vilna Gaon's position he is not the only one. My point was that by the time of R' Karo, the custom had become quite widespread and in many communities universal and that R' Karo's position is that it is an obligation. Please note that even according to R' Karo, some halachic authorities are of the view that his position only applies outdoors and not while someone is in a building. I am not familiar with the Sephardic custom in this regard, though it is my impression that it was impractical to wear kippahs in many sephardic communities due to anti-semitism and my guess is that this caused many such communities not to follow R' Karo's position in this regard.

[Ichabod Chrain]

"Kol Isha, yeah. As a kid that one always made me laugh. Nothing turns me on like a tone-deaf grandma screeching in Yiddish."

Lol. Except they want to think they can turn you on that way.

As for me, Joan Sutherland isn't tone deaf and doesn't screech, and doesn't sing in Yiddish, but I've never been turned on by hearing her sing. Same with any other good opera singer I've heard. I can admire their voice quality without getting turned on.

[Name with held]

Ever listen to Fairouz? (Lebanese singer) She sings like she is 'coming' THAT in the old days before photography WOULD turn you on.

[Ken]

From an old comedy routine:

Dr. Kildare, do you know what you did this morning, you young whelp? You performed an appendectomy with a milkhidik scalpel!

[The Elder]

Another 'holiday' that is a total invention of the 'evil' rabbis is Channukah.

Based on the topics discussed so far, I would recommend two lectures to look into.

One is the audio class at outreachjudiasm.org which deals with the Oral Torah. The second one is a three part lecture on the issue of waiting between meat and milk, which you can find at machonshilo.org.

[Shmarya]

The rabbis did not invent Hanukka – they invented the miracle of oil and changed Hanukka from the celbration of the Hasmonean military victory (which the rabbis played no role in) to a religious holiday (which they controlled.

Read these posts:

http://www.google.com/search?q=hanukka&btnG=%C2%BB&domains=failedmessiah.typepad.com&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Ffailedmessiah.typepad.com

[Yochanan Lavie]

Not that anyone asked me, I prefer Chanukkah as a celebration of a military victory. I am tired of Jews as victims (although the rabbis seem to like the idea).

--The rabbis did not invent Hanukka – they invented the miracle of oil and changed Hanukka from the celbration of the Hasmonean military victory (which the rabbis played no role in) to a religious holiday (which they controlled.

Read these posts:--

Those posts are silly and simply reflect your personal view that miracles cannot have occurred and your bias towards trying to reject anything not written in the torah.

Hanukkah likely initially started as a "local purim" type holiday (there have been a number of cities throughout the generations that established holidays to commemorate local miracles). It also initially was designed to be celebrated for one year only. It was only later, that it was adopted as an obligatory holiday for all jews at which time the designation of 8 days was based on the miracle and not as a substitute for Sukkot. Hanukkah was established to commemorate both the miracle of the oil AND the military victory (or have you never read the Al Hanissim). The notion that the rabbis has something to gain by inventing a miracle is just silly. The deemphasis of the military victory is likely due to the fact that the Hasmonean victory turned out to be short-lived. The Hasmonean dynasty lasted less than 100 years and even while it lasted did not represent one of the prouder moments of jewish self rule. Can't say for sure if this is the reason, but it would have been quite logical for the importance of the military victory to have lost its importance. Frankly, I can't imagine that jews were too excited about celebrating the Hasmonean victory even during the Hasmonean rule if the stories about the Hasmonean rule are even partially true. There was also concern about Roman (and during Talmudic times other regimes) reaction toward a celebration that is primarily about a jewish military victory which may also be part of the cause of the deemphasis of the military victory.

As far as your reference to there being no historic source that the miracle occurred (I'm assuming that the Talmud is not good enough for you), it is referenced in Megillat Antiochus. It is not entirely clear when Megillat Antiochus was written but it clearly existed in the times of the Geonim and some sources from that time state that it was written during the times of the Tanaim.

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

What happened is this:

Hashem was giving the Torah to Moshe Rabbenu at Har Sinai...he gets to the part where he says ..."lo tevashel gedi be helev imo" ...Moshe Rabbenu (henceforth, "MR") says, "Excuse me, excuse me, wait up, wait a minute, erbishter...I don't follow...what are you trying to say? Can I have a glass of milk with my pastrami sandwich?" Hashem says to MR..."No, LISTEN...lo tevashel gedi behalav imo...don't boil the baby goat in it's motehr's milk..that's CRUEL, ya know"

Moshe Rabbenu, says, "OK, OK, I got it...but let me get this down...let me clarify this, wait a sec, Hashem, I just want to make sure I understood you correctly...no cheeseburgers, right?" Hashem, says: "No, pay attention: I said--'lo tevashel gedi behalav imo'"

MR says---"OK, ok, gotcha!"

Hashem says: "Good!"

MR says "just one more thing, hakoidesh baruch hu--?"

Hashem: "Yes, Moshe?"

MR: "I just want to make sure I got this straight--so let's say, I eat some flesihigs..right, now how long exactly should I wait, , before I can have some milchigs..I don't know, maybe an egg cream...because I am pretty sure you don't want the meat and dairy getting all mixed up in my tummy, right?"

Hashem gets impatient and says: "Nu, Moshe, enough already--DO WHAT YOU WANT!"

[Shmarya]

As far as your reference to there being no historic source that the miracle occurred (I'm assuming that the Talmud is not good enough for you), it is referenced in Megillat Antiochus. It is not entirely clear when Megillat Antiochus was written but it clearly existed in the times of the Geonim and some sources from that time state that it was written during the times of the Tanaim.

It is, a) NOT real and, b) no older than about 300CE – about 500 years AFTER the events of Hanukka took place.

The rest of what your write is simply foolish. The Hasmoneans were clear about what Hanukka was. No miracle of oil is mentioned in their sources, and no miracle of oil is mentioned in any source contemporaneous to the event.

Rather than attack my "bias," I suggest you look at your own.

[Schmorgel (Borgel)]

Here is another issue---what about "Krembo" cookies? How do you deal with them on Shabbat? What if you just want to eat the cream and not eat the biscuit?

Artcile from Yediot with the video clip:

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3462913,00.html

Just the video clip for those with Macs who probably won't be able to view it on the ynet site:

http://players.mediazone.co.il/media/authors/34/playlists/84102/84102_static.asx

[Rabbi Luciano Mordekhai Levi de Lopes]

Hello everyone,

After reading almost all the commentaries, i'd say that most are correct according to the Talmud.

Waiting after meat and dairy is very debatable in the sense of time. This is what we can read from Mor Uqbá, in Tractate Hullin, when he says: Compared with my father, i'm like vinager compared to wine, because my father waited from a day to another, and me, i wait from a meal to another.

We, the Spanish&Portuguese Jews, which follow most of Talmudic rules as well as the Rambam, just wait one hour. But i think that i depends on the cultural backgroud of each people. The reason is that i do not think one has another meal in less than one hour. I guess Rambam stated six hours for medical reasons.

Covering the head is only mandatory while making Tefillá. Even Hakham Y. Caro does not say it's an obligation.

One must remember that lotos, if not the majority of the "Jewish", customs we have nowadays, have cabalistic influences and not TALMUDIC. Such as not putting tefilin in Hol haMo'ed, using "special", rings at the marriage, the stress on superstitions, kaparot, just to number few.

Although, most of Miswot that are obligatory, such as usuing tefilín the whole day or at least on both Shahharít and Minhhá, as well as talét gadol, saying the blessings always BEFORE performing the Miswót, syaing them at the sequence we find in the Talmud etc, these have been sat aside, being substituted by "popular ou commmunal minhaguim", most totally anti Halakhic.

As for other communitary minhaguim, as long as they do not go against what decided in the Talmud, they are acceptable and most, very beautifull.

[Arnold Wolf]

After reading all the various opinions, I find it very interesting that the Talmud Sages claimed themselves to be greater than Hashem and His Torah.

Talmud MOED: Erubin 21b

"….And furthermore, my son, be admonished of making many books. My son
be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words
of the Torah, for in the laws of the Torah there are positive and negative precepts, but, as to the laws of the Scribes whoever transgresses any of the enactments of the Scribes incurs the penalty of death."

Hashem must be very proud of His Sages who create commandments that supersedes Hashem Himself.

What did Hashem say about the wise men Sages of Talmud?

Isaiah 29:13-15

And the L-rd said: Forasmuch as this people draw near, and with their mouth and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote;

Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the prudence of their prudent men shall be hid.

Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the L-RD, and their works are in the dark, and they say: 'Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?'

KOHELETH 12:11-14

The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails well fastened are those that are composed in collections; they are given from one shepherd.

And furthermore, My son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear G-d, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man.

For G-d shall bring every work into the judgment concerning every hidden thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil.

http://images.e-daf.com/

[Shmaryahu]

Our Rabbi (Sephardic) was once going over the laws of Rosh Hashanah and Kippur, when he asked us "Would you like to know what Maran Bet Yosef said about kapparot?"

We all responded in the affirmative, to which the Rav said "You don't want to know what he said, trust me!" We insisted that we did, and so the Rav said "Fine. In Sefer Bet Yosef, Maran says the following words:

'Minhag kapparot, minhag *shtoot* hee!' (The custom of kapparot is a foolish custom)."

[debra]

Thank you Yochanan for a rational approach.
It never ceases to amaze me that there is so little tolerance in orthodoxy for any view they don't like - mostly views that take power away from the rabbis.

Karaites are true to Torah and rightly disdain human additions, because they detract from the connection to G-d we are all entitled to. Rabbis need humility and that is sorely lacking because they insist they have all the answers. They lead us astray with self-serving interpretations.