Syrian Jews In Brooklyn – The Edict Against Marrying Converts, In The NY Times

Writing in the NY Times Magazine, Zev Chafets has the best article I've yet seen on Brooklyn's Syrian Jewish community and its edict against marrying converts (or converting anyone, for that matter). Here's a choice quote:

Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” [Jakie] Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.”

How strong is the edict? Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, while he was still Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, traveled to Brooklyn to personally vouch for a convert. She is as Jewish as I am, Rav Ovadia allegedly said to Rabbi Jacob Kassin, the head of the Syrian community. Rabbi Kassin refused to let her marry into the community anyway.

Community members who violate the edict are shunned – some, like Rabbi Kassin's own daughter – have had no contact with the community or even with their own families, in some cases for decades.

But there is much good on Ocean Parkway:

But the solidarity of the SY [i.e., Syrian] community is based on more than fear of excommunication and the evil eye. There are positive inducements as well. Chief among these are the support and charity that the community shows to its members. It is an intensely social place; weddings of 1,000 guests or more are common (there are volunteer societies that loan out dishes, silverware and even tables and chairs to enable everyone to entertain in a respectable fashion). Grown children often live within walking distance of the parents, and family Sabbath dinners of 30 or 40 are the norm. Being an SY means never having to say you are hungry. The community is charitable to a fault: at Sunday-morning house parties and festive holiday cruises, grandees compete by making donations to one another’s pet charities.

The result is the most generous cradle-to-grave mutual-welfare society this side of the Saudi royal family. The community’s annual spending on charity and other civic services, including education, is around $100 million. “The services here are preconception to postmortem,” David Greenfield, executive director of the recently formed Sephardic Community Federation, told me.

An SY in good standing can expect free K-12 parochial education and summer camps for the kids, access to a palatial communal ritual bath, use of grand recreational facilities in a community center now being doubled in size, high-level care for the aged and attention to whatever material problems life may present. “If there are poor people among us, we try to help,” Jakie Kassin told me. “If a person falters in business, other men step in. I’ve even seen people in the same business, direct competitors, raise money to put the man back on his feet.”

Still, the article notes that Syrian Jews rarely get a higher education and even their Jewish educations take a back seat to making money. The community needs to import its professionals, which means Ashkenazim run some of the community's institutions.

Other Sefardim live and work in the Syrian community. But they're clearly second class citizens:

…You can find Egyptians, Moroccans and Iraqis in the Syrian community. Even so, they are considered second-class citizens. “Let’s just say that the real SY’s are dominant,” my guide told me. “We set the tone. They join us, not the other way around.

”The non-Syrian Sephardim, many of whom are Israeli citizens, do a lot of the labor and neighborhood shopkeeping. “Israelis own the local grocery stores,” my guide informed me in a dismissive tone as we cruised down the enclave’s commercial strip on Kings Highway. “How much can a grocery store bring in, enough to take care of one or two families?”…

Most fascinating though is the community's near-veneration of Sam Walton. The founder of WalMart, it seems, took many Syrian businessmen under his wing and guided them to successful business in China.

Read it all here.

Comments

[anon]

What if a woman is raped?

What if a child is adopted?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Oh no! Moshiach will have gentile characteristics because he will be a descendant of Ruth.

/I hope "rabbi" Kassin is enjoying his sojourn in hell.

[Michelle]

B"H

At least the SY community is clear about what they believe and who they are. They aren't like the lying group of black-coated nuts that pretend they are so open and loving but won't accept even a BT because they might be "Bat/Bar Niddah," or a convert, or anyone who is not "from their community"--but won't say that outright.

I'd rather deal with people who are up front about what they are and who they are than those who say one thing and do another.

And, by the way, the SY community is still a community BECAUSE they made the edict. Where are the Turks? Where are the Greeks? Where are the Romanite Jews? They have all assimilated away--but the Syrians are still strong.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Having prayed in a Syrian synagogue shabbos morning for almost 30 years, and having made friends in the community, I thought the article betrayed much of Zev Chafetz's own secular, anti-religious bias. For example, he doesn't mention that nearly 100% of the Syrian homes are Kosher, that 100% of the children receive a Jewish day school education, which means that the level of Jewish and Hebrew literacy is probably higher than any other group of Jews whose ancestors migrated here in the early 20th century. He doesn't mention that by any measure of religious observance, the community has a higher percentage of adherents than any other group which migrated here when they did. The reason the edict works is that the community has a strong religious (rather than ethnic or national) identification, and are therefore more inclined to listen to rabbis.

By the way, Rav Moshe Feinstein once remonstrated with one of the Syrian rabbis about the edict, insisting that it's halachicly wrong (which it is). The rabbi's reply was that if Reb Moshe were willing to take responsibility in this world and the next for every Syrian Jew who intermarries, he would see that it is repealed. Reb Moshe declined the offer.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Why didn't you quote the part of the article bellow to give a more honest picture of the situation:

"

Most American Jewish communities in those days (and many today) viewed intermarriage as a taboo. Conversion, however, was a loophole. The Edict intended to close that loophole. It proclaimed, “No male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non-Jews; this law covers conversion, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless.”

A 1946 clarification added specifics: “The rabbi will not perform Religious Ceremonies” for such unkosher couples. “The Congregation’s premises will be banned to them for use of any religious or social nature. . . . After death of said person, he or she is not to be buried on the Cemetery of our community . . . regardless of financial considerations.”

With these words, Chief Rabbi Jacob Kassin effectively excommunicated any member of his flock who married a partner with gentile blood. (There have been exceptions for converts judged to be “sincere” — that is, those who converted without the intention to marry — but these have been extremely rare and always controversial.)
"

There is ample halachik precedent for this type of edict.
It is based on a strong presumption that at the time when Jews are wealthy free and powerful there are stronger reasons to suspect the motives of converts.
Their children went to the public schools at that time as the article says.
They wanted to preserve their culture and character of their community.
There is a statement of chazal that converts who convert for wrong reasons pass "goyish" characteristics for 10 generations.
(Don't argue that is in itself a racist presumption because if the conversion was done just for the sake of marriage neither of the parthners in that marriage had strong convictions about religion and their kids would likely to be brought up the same way untill they face some event in their live that would lead them to reevaluate their whole attitude.)
One can question the wisdom of such edicts and their continued enforcement, but why selectively quote the article to give an impression that the ban is based on simple racism with no underlaying halachik basis to it?

"By Rabbi Maurice Lamm

Although traditionally, conversion for the sake of marriage to a Jew is not acceptable according to Jewish law, even some traditional rabbis have begun to realize that conversion is an evolving commitment. Exposure to Jewish life within the context of a Jewish family inspires many converts--who may have originally converted purely to accommodate a Jewish spouse or in-laws--to become wholehearted Jews. Excerpted with permission from "Becoming a Jew".

The genuine desire to embrace Judaism for its own sake, "for the sake of Heaven," was considered the sole legitimate ground for conversion permitted by the rabbis. Historically, it is the only motivation that "worked" for the Jewish people. The authorities rejected conversion for ulterior motives as unworthy, and indeed harmful, to the religious development of the Jewish people. They cite examples through the ages that amount to a litany of troubles. Those ulterior motives range from materialism to marriage, but they were all rejected as grounds for becoming a Jew. The Torah, even as God Himself, was not to be used as a means, only a goal.

Convenience or Conviction?

While it is true that many convert out of conviction--more than most people think--they are vastly outnumbered by those who convert for convenience or accommodation. Once the convenience was material: conversion for the sake of more food, a better job, or entering into a higher social class. Today this accommodation is mostly associated with prospective marriage, when conversion serves the purpose of appeasing volatile in-laws and also prevents future children from seeing more conflict in their parents' home than is necessary. Conversion to another faith, in this sense, is a marriage of convenience to facilitate the convenience of marriage.

The western world is fertile ground for such conversions. Blended communities have, in some ways, made mixed marriages commonplace, whereas [not that long ago] they were anomalies to be ignored or barely tolerated."

PS. Everyone who knows me personally can vouch that I tend to give all people benefit of the doubt.
I have many friends who are converts. The reason I chose to write this comment is to defend a point of view that I don't necesarily agree with which has been selectively quoted and thus misrepresented in your post creating a false impression about a whole community.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Incorrect html in my previous comment:
the link http://www.myjewishlearning.com/lifecycle/Conversion/AboutConversion/WhatMotivatesConversion.htm
should have been above the PS. not embeded in it.

[hungarian khazar]

these syrians are right. look at us hungarians , we mixed with the huns and the magyars and look how degenerate we became. look at the high rates of incest, sexual abuse and all kinds of criminal activity among us. may lord have mercy.

[Isa]

Ok I am going to defend the Syrians
The Syrian community is also composed of the non-religious. If one is wealthy one can 'buy' just about any women that one wants, also one can 'buy' all sorts of 'Orthodox' rabbis to do conversions. When this edict was enacted (~1937) there was some 'orthodox' conversions mills that were active.One has to realize that even Syrian Arabs are taught to keep other Arabs at 'arms length' This certainly influenced the Syrian Jewish community. Soooooo
The Syrian rabbis are saying in effect to the non-religious 'You cannot go out marry any one that you choose and somehow get her(him) converted because we will NOT accept her(him) under any circumstances, we don't care how esteemed the rabbis are that did the conversion because we don't care. In addition you are out of this community and your children will be out this community, neither you nor your children will even be allowed to be buried in our cemeteries.
Someone brought up """" What if the child is adopted"""" I suspect with money one can find a baby with a Jewish mother.

[Isa]

Ok I am going to defend the Syrians
The Syrian community is also composed of the non-religious. If one is wealthy one can 'buy' just about any women that one wants, also one can 'buy' all sorts of 'Orthodox' rabbis to do conversions. When this edict was enacted (~1937) there was some 'orthodox' conversions mills that were active.One has to realize that even Syrian Arabs are taught to keep other Arabs at 'arms length' This certainly influenced the Syrian Jewish community. Soooooo
The Syrian rabbis are saying in effect to the non-religious 'You cannot go out marry any one that you choose and somehow get her(him) converted because we will NOT accept her(him) under any circumstances, we don't care how esteemed the rabbis are that did the conversion because we don't care. In addition you are out of this community and your children will be out this community, neither you nor your children will even be allowed to be buried in our cemeteries.
Someone brought up """" What if the child is adopted"""" I suspect with money one can find a baby with a Jewish mother.

[AC]

I'm Syrian and I know for fact that adopted kids are accepted. Any other questions?

[Alex]

All that the article shows is that Sefardic religious lunatics are just as crazy as Ashkenaz religious lunatics.

To quote: " Syrian Jews have always regarded advanced secular education with something like suspicion. Not only does it promote outside values, it also distracts a boy from his proper role as an apprentice in the family business. “To understand us, you have to know that we are profoundly Middle Eastern,” Suede said. “Education is never the most important thing. People in the community thought we were weird because my older brothers and I became professionals.” "

That is really all that one needs to know.
-.-

[Nigrtitude Ultramarine]

that 100% of the children receive a Jewish day school education

If you take out all of that jazz about accepting and loving converts, it's not really Judaism.

Judaism - Convert Related Stuff = SY

[Nigrtitude Ultramarine]

I'd rather deal with people who are up front about what they are and who they are than those who say one thing and do another.

The KKK is upfront about their views. Are you enjoying the meetings?

[Nigrtitude Ultramarine]

I'm Syrian and I know for fact that adopted kids are accepted.

How magnanimous.

[WalkingAlongTheShore]

It proclaimed, “No male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non-Jews; this law covers conversion, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless.”

(There have been exceptions for converts judged to be “sincere” — that is, those who converted without the intention to marry — but these have been extremely rare and always controversial.)

A bit of inconsistency here, no? If they consider conversion to be "fictitious and valueless," how can they make "exceptions" for some converts. If conversion is fictitious and valueless, then no matter how sincere the convert is, they are still not Jewish.

Why would this be a "rare" exception? Why would it be "controversial"? I know plenty of people who have converted not for the sake of marriage. Some are still single, and some have since married. What if a married couple, either both converts or one being a convert, moves into their neighborhood? Would they be accepted? What of a convert who is single, but already converted years ago?

This is biggoted, no matter how much of a spin on preserving Jewishness one wants to put on it.

The lie is easily exposed when one thinks about how easy it would be for the community to prevent false conversions in order to preserve their community. They could rule that all conversions must be done through them, or ratified by them if done earlier (which should be fairly simple and self-evident, if one is already married, or single but Orthodox for a few years, it's pretty self-evident that they didn't convert just to marry into the SY community). In the event that a member of the SY community thinks of marrying a non-Jew who professes to be serious about conversion, the SY community could (with the community infrastructure described in the article) easily set up a course of conversion sufficiently educational and stringent such that anyone who passes it would be acceptable.

With these words, Chief Rabbi Jacob Kassin effectively excommunicated any member of his flock who married a partner with gentile blood

Looks like the Moshiach won't be able to marry anyone from the SY community.

Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” [Jakie] Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.”

Gentile characteristics like the ones underlying White Supremacy, Afrocentrism, Nazi racial purity laws? Things like that?

White supremacists label anyone who even dated outside their "race" to be a "race traitor" and is unwelcome among them. Afrocentrists are the Black version of White supremacists. The Nazis? Didn't matter if a Jew became a Christian, they still had "Jewish blood."

Jewish characteristics are more along the lines of: you must be Jewish to marry into or be counted amongst our people - and we will stand by this steadfastly, without exception. However, if you are truly sincere, you may convert - it won't be easy, but the opportunity is there.

Therefore, a Moabite woman converts and becomes the grandmother of the king from whom the Moshiach will descend. A Cushite woman marries the man who is Judaism's greatest prophet. A man converts, and becomes the author of a book in Tanach. A man converts and becomes the father of one of the greatest rabbis ever.

Also, has anyone noticed that the takkanah of the SY community is practically a point-for-point inversion of Ruth's declaration to Naomi?

I'm not sure exactly what "gentile characteristics" the leaders of the SY are trying to keep out of their community, but with their "edict," they are already exhibiting some of the most vile ones, themselves.

[Alex]

Walkingalongtheshore- so orthodox jews are arrogant. what's new? nothing.

[Yos]

Bottom line, conversion is right there in the Chumash. If you deny it, you're playing fast and loose with the Torah the same as any reformer.

As far as the plus side to inbreeding, the gypos and tinkers all get along with one another as well (because they're all bloody related). But being proficient in cant is hardly a practical talent. And for the syrians the lashon ha-kodesh is no less a cant and Judaism is nothing more than a tribli.

[Steven]

Isn't it about time that we all start (re)thinking of ourselves as Am Yisra'el Ehad? Funny, I don't know any Arabs who refer to the "Syrian" Jews as Syrian. The only name that I am familiar with is the term "Yahud."

I laugh at Jews who call themselves by the name of the country of Galut that they come from. Especially, when they are already 2nd or 3rd generation American born!

[Alex]

Steven- Secular jews are perhaps safer in the United States then they are in Israel.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

WalkingAlongTheShore: well stated! I will note, however, that the idea that conversion is supposed to be hard is a fiction that is not supported at all in halachic history. In fact, quite the opposite: the requirements for conversion spelled out in the legal codes are far more simple than the usual time-consuming modern conversion process. Additionally, the history of legal decisions about conversions "in question" is overwhelmingly in favor of accepting them whenever possible, sometimes even when there were clear technical errors made by the beth din.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
More on the history of this edict:

[...]
In the beginning of this century a decree was made in the spirit of Ezra Hasofer. Chacham Shaul David Sutton of Blessed Memory was a rabbi in Argentina for the small Syrian Jewish community.

....It is forbidden to accept converts in Argentina forever... If they desire they can go to Jerusalem, perhaps they will accept him. (Diber Shaul - Yoreh Deah Siman 3)

Additionally, it was decreed that it is forbidden to circumcise the children of such marriages. It is also forbidden to teach Torah to these children. The children of mixed marriages consecrated with the onset of the Spanish Inquisition were known to turn in their Jewish parents in to the authorities who tortured the Jewish spouse and then burned them to death. (Diber Shaul - Yoreh Deah Siman 2)

This decree was also enacted in the Syrian Jewish Community of Brooklyn. Indeed, I have been told that my grandfather Chacham Moshe Gindi was active in enacting the decree. He was also a signatory of this decree.

Today, most communities are accepting of those who convert for marital purposes. However, Let us try to see it through Chacham Shaul David Sutton's eyes. Buenos Ares was a free Westernized city. In Syria Rabbis and the Bet Din were respected. In Western cities rabbis and community councils did not have any legal power or implied power. Only a strong community wide decree could aid situation which Rabbu Sutton found. A Cherem precludes doing business with those who have been ex-communicated.

Rabbi Sutton felt that those who had married "Converts" were trying to canard him. He asked them how the spouse was converted. The answer was that it was "none of his business" how things were done. Rabbi Sutton saw that such people desecrate the Shabat and continue to eat trief. He did not write that he did not believe that the spouse converted. Rather he felt that it was impossible to keep "the community" together under such circumstances. Therefore, he made a decree against accepting converts. He additionally ruled that it is forbidden to teach Torah to the children of such a relationship. He viewed these children as worse than gentiles.

Rabbi Sutton believed that these converts must have immersed in a mikveh without kosher witnesses or Baki Bet Din. A Baki Bet Din is one which is known to be very knowledgeable in Halacha. A Baki Bet Din could not have ordinary Shabat observant people.

The decree is certainly accepted in the given communities and has a lot of strong backing. It seems that although Rabbi Sutton's view of reality is true the halachot upon which it is based is a Mochloket (Argument). Indeed, the Rishon Letzion Rabbi Ben-Tzion Chai Uziel of Blessed Memory discussed the issue in depth
see whole article here:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:A5RkXYnskr0J:www.milknhoney.co.il/torah/conversion.new.html+Syrian+jews+conversion&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Indeed, I have been told that my grandfather Chacham Moshe Gindi was active in enacting the decree. He was also a signatory of this decree.

I hope the flames aren't too hot for him "there down" -- if you get what I mean.

[Sion Setton]

I am impressed with the interest of this blog on this topic and enjoyed come of the posts. Now for my two sense; Me being born into Syrian descent acknowledge some of the claims of the article but must say that it is hard to generalize 75,000 peoples individuality in a small article. Chafez did gig up a bunch of dirt and intentionally skewed many stories in the article. Also, unfortunately there was an unqualified person being interviewed, Jackie Kassin. He has disgraced the face, of not just the Syrian community, the Jewish community as a whole.

Personally the Syrian community is in a bubble- although we have a tremendous focus on education we are not really exposed to interfaith or even indetermination. Just like everything in life there are pluses and minuses to each side. Our Edict is one pivotal thing that held us together- but throughout the duration of this edict we have embraced the convert who have "converted for the right reasons". I personally am of the opinion that we, the Syrian community, follows the Rambam on the laws of conversion- where he says in the time of Daveed no one would be of proper conversion becuase the Jewish people were looked up to and everyone wanted to be part of the thriving Jewish Empire. Meaning, if the convert would have any ulterior motive to be Jewish aside for the love of Judaism itself then their conversion would be tainted. (I personally don't agree with the Lamm article stated above.)

[R]

How can you talk about fellow jews that way and even believe it? Who cares if they converted, quite often they are more jewish than those born into the fold.
So do they ever talk about Rabbi Akiva at the seder, or do they miss what he says out because he was a convert and obviously is a mudblood and brings out the non jew in all of us.
It's a joke, if there was no such thing as conversion the jewish people would have died out long ago due to genetic mutations and diseases from interbreading all the time.
It's bad enough there are already genetic illnesses out there, all this community is doing is actually killing themselves off because soon enough there will only be one gene pool...so it;s a bit like a double edged sword. Don't accept any one else into the special elitist community because we want to preserve our faith, then a few generations down the line they die out anyway.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I'm surprised that people zeroed in on the convert issue, without addressing an even more troubling one. The SY's although they will marry JW's and other Sephardim, want 3 generations of "proof" that one is Jewish, according to the article. How the hell does one proove that? My maternal grandparents were Tchotkover Chassidim in the old country, who became secular over here. They lived in a shtetl that no longer exists, and a country that no longer exists- Czarist Russia (probably Ukraine now). If I hypothetically wanted to marry into that community, how do I "proove" my Judaism?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

If I hypothetically wanted to marry into that community, how do I "proove" my Judaism?

I agree, it's an onerous requirement. I once heard Rabbi H. Billet of YI of Woodmere say during a shiur, "How do any of us know that we are Jewish? We have a chazaka."

In other words, Jews don't have to walk around with a "Certificate of Authenticity" to prove their Jewishness.

I wonder if this obsession with Limpieza de sangre (purity of blood) is something the Syrian community learned from the Spanish exiles who later joined the community in Syria.

Limpieza de sangre was an important feature of Spanish life. Certain benefits and opportunities would accrue to one who could prove that one was an old-line Christian without Jewish or Muslim blood in the family.

[The Monsey Tzadik]

In my experience people who converted for the sake of marriage are more stable and normal than “sincere converts:. The “sincere converts” are so weird, some of them are just not here.

Who do you think leave resonate life beyond and chooses Orthodox Judaism or Wahabi Islam for that matter.

I remember some of them hate their parents with vengeance because they are idol worshippers.

[Jay C]

The edict was applied in 1935 thus R' Akiva and all others who converted before are kool with the SY's.

I for 1 could see the logic in thier argument. It is an unfortunate safeguard they must make in order to preserve the purity in the RELIGION.

Think about how many kids go off to college, bars, library, or supermarket and date non Jews thinking it wont lead anywhere then end up at the alter with them. Majority of the conversions that begin this way are not authentic and the couple ends up with a Hannukah bush in December. I wonder what will happen to the offspring of this type of union... will they move closer or futher from authentic judiasm? My money is on further...

[WalkingAlongTheShore]

The edict was applied in 1935 thus R' Akiva and all others who converted before are kool with the SY's.

I'm not sure about that. After all, it was the products of the conversion mills before the edict was passed that started the whole thing.

I doubt that those conversions were approved just because they happened before the ban.

Rabbi Akiva would probably pass - but he still has the "gentile blood" that the "rabbi" in the article was decrying.

I for 1 could see the logic in thier argument. It is an unfortunate safeguard they must make in order to preserve the purity in the RELIGION.

Yes, but the lie is exposed again when one looks at their community. Is it 99% full of religiously observant people? While it's great that the majority are not marrying outside of Judaism, it doesn't seem to have done much to increase religious observance within the community.

They are no more observant than any other community.

Which is ironic, since the majority of sincere Orthodox converts are quite observant, and are more observant than the average person in the SY (or most other non-charedi/chassidic) community.

So, with all that, it basically comes down to the edict being little more than a tool to enforce the cultural chauvanism of the leaders of the community.

If it was really about intermarriage and religious observance, all sincere Orthodox converts would be welcomed with open arms, hassle-free, since:

1)a convert is a Jew therefore, intermarriage is not an issue with them

2) since most sincere Orthodox converts are rather religiously observant, there shouldn't be any worries that they will dilute the observance of the community (in fact, they might raise the bar a little).

While I understand why the takkanah was issued, I think that it is really stretching things to say that because of some conversion mills that were running back in 1935 the takkanah has to be enforced today, long after the "rabbis" running them have all died. Especially today, given the ease with which rabbis from distant communities can now communicate with each other, it should not be a difficult thing to verify someone's conversion to make sure that it didn't come from some "mill."

All of their arguments fall flat on each point that they stake their claims.

[R]

Not all converts who convert for the right reasons are weird at all, i would say BTs are more weird, as they all get holier than thou.

[C-Girl]

I wonder what will happen to the offspring of this type of union... will they move closer or futher from authentic judiasm? My money is on further...

My money is on their already having moved far away from "authentic Judaism", whatever that may be. Marrying a Jew is not an ironclad guarantee that the resulting family will entertain any thoughts of Judaism. Why not let someone who's already left the fold intermarry? You cannot seriously expect people to abide by beliefs to which they do not subscribe.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Yochanan Lavie
need to prove "3 generations of "proof" that one is Jewish"
is not unique to SY Jews.
If you go to get married in Israel the Rabbinate may ask you same type of proof.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Rabbi Ariel: I am aware of that and I think it is atrocious. If you don't have the documentation (ketubot?) how does one "prove" Jewishness? Why isn't the old fashioned chazakah alright? Because many rabbis are pigs. (Present company excepted, of course).

[jersey]

hey mr. lavie,

you mentioned chortkov. are you familiar with the jewish communist Felix Morrow, son of wayward Chortkover Chassidim.

By the way, Chortkov was staunchly Zionist back in the old country. This is before Zionism and Chassidism have become mutually exclusive (if not opposing) terms.

[Yochanan Lavie]

jersey: Thanks for the info. I didn't know that there were any Tchortkover left after the Shoah. My grandfather was a Zionist, and his father disapproved. My grandfather was considering aliya, but didn't because he was afraid he couldn't make a living there. He would speak his limited Ashkenazi Hebrew to his likeminded friends, which was considered very daring. He told me the Zinkover chassidim in town were relatively more modern- I didn't know that at one time the Tchortkover were Zionist.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Yochanan

#1 In your comment you made it seem like this requirement was exclusive to SY Jewish community.
#2 Apparently the old presumption is not enough since there are now too many dishonest people who want to be considered Jewish without converting according to halacha and we later end up with anti-semitism is Israel see http://pogrom.org.il
#3 I think in Israel rabbinate they don't actually ask for 3 generations of ketubot in all cases otherwise they would have to do conversions for most Russian Jews and many others too.
#4
It's interesting that Rothschild banking dynasty apparently also descended from a Chossid of Tchortkover Rebbe see:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112275/jewish/The-Rothschild-Family.htm"

[Rabbi Moshe Shamah]

Oct. 15, 2007
Letters to the Editor, Magazine
The New York Times
620 Eighth Ave.
New York, NY 10018

To the Editor,

Jakie Kassin is the son and grandson of rabbis and a dynamic do-gooder, but he is neither a rabbi nor a scholar of Judaic studies. The statements attributed to him in “The SY Empire” (Zev Chafets, Oct. 14, 2007) are a gross distortion of Judaism as well as of the 1935 Edict promulgated in the Syrian Jewish community of Brooklyn. That Edict was enacted to discourage community members from intermarrying with non-Jews. It acknowledged the reality of the time that conversions were being employed insincerely and superficially. Accordingly, conversion for marriage to a member of the community was automatically rejected.

However, it is important in this regard to clarify the policy of the community rabbinate and particularly that of the long-time former chief rabbi of the community, Jacob S. Kassin (the originator of the Edict), and his son, the present chief rabbi, Saul J. Kassin. I quote from an official formulation of the Sephardic Rabbinical Council of several years ago that reflects their position: “1. A conversion not associated with marriage that was performed by a recognized Orthodox court – such as for adoption of infants or in the case of an individual sincerely choosing to be Jewish – is accepted in our community. 2. If an individual not born to a member of our community had converted to Judaism under the aegis of an Orthodox court, and was observant of Jewish Law, married a Jew/Jewess who was not and had not been a member of our community, their children are permitted to marry into our community.” Based on these standards a goodly number of converts have been accepted into the community. Genetic characteristics play no role whatsoever.

No rabbi considers sincere and proper conversions “fictitious and valueless.” (The comma in the English translation cited in the article that gives that impression was the result of a mistranslation by a layman, a matter I made clear to Mr. Chafets when we spoke.)

In addition, the quote claiming that even other Jews are disqualified from marrying into the community “if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi” is a totally false portrayal of community rabbinical policy. Many Ashkenazim whose parents were married by such rabbis have married into our community.

Sincerely,

Moshe Shamah
Rabbi, Sephardic Synagogue
511 Ave. R
Brooklyn, NY 11223

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Summary: the SYs accept allow some converts to daven with them, and allow some children of converts to marry into their community. Still looks like it goes against Torah and halacha to me; there are zero such limitations placed upon gerim by authentic Jewish law.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Rabbi Ariel: Thanks for the info. I disagree with your blogs, but I like you personally.

[Alex]

Jakie Kassin is the son and grandson of rabbis and a dynamic do-gooder, but he is neither a rabbi nor a scholar of Judaic studies.

So. Does that mean that Kassin can't have an informed view basied on *gasp* OBSERVATION???

Rabbi Moshe Shamah sounds like Rabbi Moshe smear-job.

[Isa]

Regarding Rabbi Shamah's response:

Something stinks! It HAS been the policy of the Syrian community to reject ALL converts. Either they have relented since Rav Yosef vouched for one convert OR it is a LIE to discredit Jackie Kassin. The Syrian community absolutely does not want any publicity and this may be one way to end the issue.

[Yochanan]

Maybe, the should rephrase the edict and say they're only against half-ass conversions.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
Dear Yochanan!
You are welcome. I also like you personally while I disagree with some of your comments.

Rabbi Moshe Shammah makes a valid point- the syrian community does accept converts who convert for the right reasons! I know of examples! There are those crazy unhalakhic rabbis who don't but we shouldn't follow those who don't follow the torah- all those black hat rabbis who put chumras- which distort the torah and end up uprooting the torah principles.

[ST]

Rabbi Shamah is quite accurate in his letter.Unfortunately there are some who ,for personal or "un"religious reasons attempt to use the Edict and other venues of jewish law to further a fundamentalist view of Judaism.The refusal to accept converts is part of the ghetto mentality that has peverted orthodox judaism and made the religion to look outdated and in contrast to the verse from Deuteronomy 4:6
"Observe them(the laws) carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people."

To paraphrase Maimonides/Rambam we now look like a foolish and unwise people.

[RO]

An interesting aside to this story can be found in this New York Times article from 2000:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00E4D6113EF937A25757C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

Basically, a 10-year-old Catholic boy from a small village in the Asti region of Italy was dying of leukemia and was in desperate need of a bone marrow transplant. People from across the Asti region donated blood, but no match for the boy's marrow was found in Italy. The only match for his marrow turned up in the American bone marrow registry. And the donor turned out to be a rabbi from the Syrian Jewish community of Brooklyn. The marrow transplant saved the boy's life. So perhaps the boy had a Jewish ancestor who became a Christian. Or maybe the rabbi is the descendant of a Christian who converted to Judaism.

[Simon]

THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE EDICT

Kassin's grandchildren are now goim since his daughter married a goy, Kassin's son is no better than an apikoros, It is sad to see the children bear the brunt of the parent. So the SY jews who scream their (Quasi-Arab)purity so loud and display their wife who mostly dress like whores should realize the price they are and will pay for going outside halacha and creating such a chillul

[Dahvid Beb Avrahm]

Remember the gentleness of time he makes such a wonderful book Till Eternity then such a chilul as the edict in Syrian Jewry against marrying converts. Over ruling Torah with a man made minhag. And the Hasidim went in with him on the book? Are they too shunning the sons of Abraham? No wonder there is terror no wonder the scoffers in Jerusalem give away our Jerusalem while super frum Shas allows them to do so. Sad very sad

[Aryeh]

These posts are filled with Ayin Hara and sinat hinam. There are famous converts who speak in local shuls, the gezera is against marrying them, not loving them. The community has been known to give homes to needy converts. There are converts who pray in minyanim, BLACK converts and children of converts who feel more at home on Ocean Parkway than on Eastern Parkway. This whole website is stupid.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I think that the Syrians are afraid that if they allow converts into their community, some of our goyish genes relating to honesty in business and respect for all other human beings may dilute their bloodthirsty rapacious ostentation, or maybe we will ask our daughters to dress like something other than streetwalkers when they go to the synagogue.

[stephan shrem]

Dear readers, The first temple was destroyed because of racist rabbis! The second temple destroyed because of racist rabbis ! Six million jews killed because of racism in world war 2 because of racism ! Do you beleive GOD loves racism ? Then continue Rabbis to teach racism in america and dont ask yourselves when your in the Fema concentration camps why? Just be proud of your idol worshipping racist jew lessons and watch as your children are murdered for the sake of your evil pride ,greed,materialism,and worse than murder rape and all sins combined is to be a racist against GOD and all his children everywhere! I guess you people think forgetting your racism would be the end of your religion yet if you can stop being racist you will finally do what GOD wanted you to do from the very start LOVE EVERYONE AND YOURSELVES OR YOU CAN NEVER LOVE GOD ! DONT JUST PRACTICE RELIGION BE REALIGIOUS! Be REAL! ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE ! One thing your money cant buy!

[stephan shrem]

Im half syrian and I know the inside of the syrian community and Thanks GOD I know the outside of the community ! I have personally been affected and have seen others in my family destroyed by the edict of racism created at the same time Hitler also made his edict for the good of the German people and for a short time racism works! Yet in the long term racism breeds hate and destruction for all who go against the Law of Anthropy and the laws of humanity! The reason both temples were destroyed is obvious RACISM includes every sin ! If a football teams fans yell racism words the club is penalized how much more should all GOD loving people end organized racism in the houses that claim to worship GOD ! Stop intermarriage with your own family maybe then your teachers might not have such genetic brain dammage ! Peace and All You Need! The only racism that should be tolerated is against racists! One world One Love One GOD ! Love GOD with all your heart!

[Michael Douglas]

I have been heavily involved with Syrian Jews through business. This world needs more communities like them. Anyone opposing them is clearly JEALOUS AND IGNORANT. Stop being jealous, instead try to copy their good ways.

[ronnie G]

The SY community yes ,pretentious as they are still do not compare with the self indulgence in the material world of the ashkenazim upscale beyond belief manhattan ,hamptons style or the frum japy five town or tacky boro park.As far `as converts the SYs have the right to accept whoever they like into their community which usually means only SYs sometimes an upscale JDub,but rarely if never a lower class sefardic Israeli style.The frum flatbush,boro park,monsey,fivetowns type even though they claim converts are ok & BTs are ok.WILL NEVER LET ONE OF THEIR CHILDREN MARRY ONE,ultimate hypocrosy,its good for the next guy so who is left some old maid or unattractive unfortunate person or maybe someone divorced then they will ask will you date a bal tshuva or a convert with even then the answer being ohh my g-d never.How about a sephardic ,well just maybe only if they do not look Sephardic.So please the one that is the most unaccepting is not the SY community but the JDUBS.Iknow I grew up in both worlds.

[Stephan Shrem]

Racism breeds incest, Incest creates brain damage,Brain damage writes racist decrees! Racist decrees upset GOD ! Then GOD corrects all who uphold the racist edict! How many times have we been through this ?

[Steve]

Its quite simple: Syrians didnt really ask anyones opinion, and based on numbers they got it right. I would say 99.9% of their people never intermarried and wouldnt give up their community for anything. As for the rest of Jews about 50% assimiliation ( and Im talking the hannuka-bush type).
Most people convert to marry , not because they want to be Jewish. Trust me as a Jew, you got to be out of your mind to want to adhere to Jewish law if your not required to. The Rabbi decieded to protect his people rather then allow assimilation because maybe one day a real convert would come. Sounds like a good decision to me.

Just some food for thought, look at history. Hitler's path through europe happen to be exactly the same path the reform movement in Europe took and what was their main goal? To assimilate with gentiles.

[Y.]

If you accomplish good through the doing of evil, is it really good?

A convert is to be treated no differently than any other jew.

[Convert Among You]

Well, today the lovely community made the news again. I live among them as a convert and they have no idea. I have to say I am not surprised by today's news, nor am I disappointed. The worst part of it is that the rest of the world doesn't know the difference between them and ashkenaz jews. They give jews a bad name.

[great grandson]

if you look closely at the origional edict of 1935 you will see that rabbi kassin was not the cheif rabbi. it was my great grandfather rabbi HIAM TAWIL.

[Sion]

It would be foolish to believe that this edict which was enacted was "wrong" or halachically unacceptable.

Yesterday, Rabbi Kassin and other SY constuitents were sent off to jail for money laundering. I have faith that the SY commmunity will get by this hastily.

Furthermore, I feel the jealousy by others who typed on this forum. Either your jealous that we've been successful in business or your jealous that we have been able to spring up a community stronger then any other community in the world.

We created this edict as a cautionary against intermarriage.

All of you are quick to criticize those in which you are jealous of.

Please be careful because this edict is acceptable halachically, but Lashon hara about such a great community will never be!

[Witznudle]

Isn't anyone more worried about the materialsm than issues of converstion? To me the New Jersey corruption sweep of yesterday shows more problems with this community than any of their marriage practices. They are mad at Dwek but not the rabbis who were money laundering? Being rich seems to be the all consuming priority than following the Torah.

[Leibel]

"Furthermore, I feel the jealousy by others who typed on this forum. Either your jealous that we've been successful in business or your jealous that we have been able to spring up a community stronger then any other community in the world.

We created this edict as a cautionary against intermarriage.

All of you are quick to criticize those in which you are jealous of.

Please be careful because this edict is acceptable halachically, but Lashon hara about such a great community will never be!"

And what about that pesky "little" mitvah from G-d to love the gair? (Which is in the Torah we received through a man married to a *giyores*, apparently Moshe wasn't concerned about his kids assimilating "gentile characteristics) Or does that part of the Torah not apply anymore? It's not halachically acceptable to treat legitimate gairim like dirt either last I checked. And last time I checked two *gairim* named Avraham and Sarah are the *only* reason any borns Jews exist at all, is the Syrian community going to challenge the validity of their conversions?

[Elliott]

My sentiment on the matter is not one newly expressed on this board, but there is no end to denying falsehood until it is gone:

"Also the aliens, that join themselves to the LORD, to minister unto Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast by My covenant: 7 Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon my altar, for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" (taken from mechon mamre )

These Syrian Jews must have entire blacked out verses in their tanach.

[Elliott]

Isaiah 56:6-7

[pete]

SY's are a bunch mamzers. They need some gerim to make their blood kosher again.

[Ali]

To the people that said things like "it doesnt say anywhere in the bible or jewish relig that converts were unacceptable" neither did the rabbis, they do it to maintain community and are very clear about it. If u think this is nonsensical and its being closed minded for its own sake as opposed to being effective, look at the facts. The syrian community (as noted) is liberal in the sense that theyre involved w ppl in daily life and unbiased in all relatinonships not relating to marriage- wed come here many generations ago and are still close knit. Thats what we value ( the closeness of community without segregation and it works)
If it bothers u its your own issue no ones taking any offense to the comments, join a support group

[Syrians are not better than anyone]

Aaaah, excuse me? He said he wont let them marry converts because, "we don't want gentile characteristics". So does that mean that laundering is a jewish character??? I'm confused. And isn't Moshiach coming from Ruth who was a convert? Maybe when Moshiach comes HE will not accepts these syrian bastards.

[Betto]

The problem is they made the edict public, in Mexico SY have a similar edict (not the same but it's the same idea), but it's not public, not many people have see it, to avoid axactly this, bad press. In fact the Rabbi who signed my newborn baby conversion signed the edict.

The bigger diferrence with the NY, argentina Edict, it's that the Mexican say that the SY community can't make a conversion (exeption newborn babies), but it implies that they accept any conversion made by the chief rabbinate of Israel, many converts live are part of the community.

Also newborn babies conversion was common until some 10 years ago, since then the community helps childless families pay for fertility treatments and only make baby conversion as last option.

The edict works, intermarriage is only 3% in Mexican SY, and it's 25% for azkenazi an Sepharadim, 25% is lower than the world average, but a 3% it's only seen in Hasidic communities, and the Mexican SY, are far from beeing ultraorthodox (there are, but no more than 30% of all)

[Halabi Amiti]

It's great to see everyone doing their research, including the author of this now infamous article.

For those interested, the quote from the free translation of the Edict caused more controversy than the actual contents of the Edict. The line about "conversions, which we consider fictitious" doesn't have a correlation in the Hebrew (the only part of the Edict that was actually enacted by the Rabbis.) Indeed, if one reads the Hebrew, it is clear that conversions on the whole are considered legitimate, and the same goes for converts.

The Edict is zeroing in on a grey area of Halakha. As per Shulhan 'Aruch and Rambam, a conversion cannot go through if the woman has ulterior motives (namely marriage). This must stop the conversion from taking place; however, according to the Law, once the conversion is done, regardless of his/her motives, the person is now considered Jewish and can be accepted as such.

The Edict addresses this unique class alone, and only those conversions done within the Syrian community. If a women or man is converted by a Syrian Beit Din, and it was known that she did so only to marry a Syrian man, the Edict claims that as far as the community is concerned, the children of such a marriage will not be accepted into community venues. This includes schools, shuls, and graveyards.

The force of the Edict is meant to discourage the youth from attempting to convert their love interest, hiding under the loophole that once a conversion is done, it is done, regardless of intent. The Edict says to such a person, you may have gotten around Halakhah, but our community closes it doors to such trickery methods.

It is very important to recognize what the Edict does not cover. It does not ban conversions for marriage, as this is already Assur according to the law. It does not invalidate conversions done by other communities, nor marriages of other Jews to converts. The scope of the Edict only applies to conversions and marriages within the community itself, and is only an extension of the Halakhah. Obviously righteous converts are accepted, both within the community and those coming from other communities. To imagine that the Edict means that Syrian Jews view the entire institution of Conversion as fallacious is ludicrous. The Edict only seeks to block a loophole that Halakhah had allowed, ruling only under its own parameters, to protect its own interests. Its success is clear.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Halabi Amiti | January 04, 2012 at 08:08 PM

Please.

You can't be more frum than the Shulkhan Arukh.

The Edict was wrong when it was made and it's wrong now.

[Thom McCann]

As an egotist what do you believe your place will be in the next world with your anti-Semitic rants?

[Aryeh]

This is picking and choosing what Torah to follow and what Torah not to follow, therefore These SY's are not Orthodox and do not Accept the Complete Torah. Period. The fact that this is not delt with within the Larger Daati community is a shame and a total Chillul H'SH"

[Aryeh]

http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/syrian-jews-shock-after-rabbis-arrest

No goyish Behavior??? Really?

[Aryeh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem

[adam]

This is an old article. However, I have been working for a job for a boss who is not Jewish who is married to a Jewish woman. 2nd marriage for both and the wife wanted to divorce her 1st husband who was a Cohen by the way.

It seemed really odd to me a religious woman marrying a Non-Jewish man. My boss tells me she is Syrian and her and her friends love to go to Deal, NJ. At first I thought it may be Jews for Jesus but now upon further research I see she traces to a community that is extremely insular and I think not only doesn't accept converts but seems to be completely isolated from other Jews from other countries including other Muslim countries.

And my bosses wife married a Non Jewish man and from what I have heard seems to be an upstanding member of the community and is involved in a camp in Deal, NJ now in the husband.

My boss has his own place but goes to his wife's place for some weekends.

It really shocked me but to not trace it to community that is completely against converts the irony is quite amazing as I have to say most Jewish woman in most religious communities would not be respected for doing something like this.

[adam]

Type at the end of the 3rd paragraph in "now in the husband" as she is involved in a camp in Deal, NJ

It seems her community fully accepts she married a non-Jewish man as she brings him to the Seder and Shabbath and Holiday meals. He has his own place and jokes that his wife can kick him out but big deal he can leave whenever he wants and go back to his place in Morris County NJ.

She has a hyphenated name so do the so called Rabbis know this or they don't even care as corrupt as they seem to be in Deal, NJ and Brooklyn, NY. As I said is involved in a camp there in Deal, NJ and seems to be no problem married to a Non-Jewish man who sadly in my view has some ulterior motives for this as well to try to learn about Judaism a religion he doesn't care for because he eats ham and considers him a Christian.

So it seems this Syrian Community has a lot of extremism and part of their hate is of other Jews as well to the point no problem a woman being married to a Non-Jew who I don't think even thinks well of Jews and this is just to pry. It is really creepy.