Why Do Haredim Have So Many Children?

Because it's not such a big deal if one goes missing?

An 8-year-old Israeli boy spent six hours floating in the Dead Sea alone at night after his father left him there by accident during a family trip, police said Sunday.

They said they would not press charges against the errant parent.…

Rescue workers said the boy, Shneur Zalman Friedman, from Jerusalem, was in the sea with his father and two brothers on Thursday evening when currents swept him away from shore, without anyone else noticing.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the family was part of a large group visiting a beach reserved for ultra-Orthodox Jewish men — who do not bathe in the presence of women — away from main public areas.

His father left the water with other members of the group and only noticed the boy was missing as darkness fell, Rosenfeld said.

A major search by police helicopters and volunteers in motorboats finally found Shneur about 2 miles from the shore early Friday after six hours in the strong-smelling, corrosive water…

Okay, I know it's unfair. Anyone could forget their own 8-year-old child in a large inland sea. You don't have to be haredi to do that …

[Hat Tip: Neo Conservaguy.]

Comments

[Anon]

If this post isn't biggoted I don't know what is.

[Shmarya]

That explains much of your confusion.

[Phillip]

If this story was not so sad..........it
would be funny. At the the child was found
safe.
The recent stories of children being
left in cars dying and now this. There
is a serious need for parental skills
training.

[Unsurprised]

Yeah, I just read that story a few minutes ago on a news site, and when I saw that his name was Shneur Zalman Friedman, I instantly knew the poor kid was a Lubavitcher. From that I speculated that you'd be making mention of this on your blog. I came to check for sure, and lo and behold, you did not fail to meet your stereotype.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Ah, another kill the messenger troll. That's new.

[PishPosh]

Its not endemic to Charedim, but for all the focus allegedly on Mishpacha and kinderlach, I have encounterd more Charedim both men and woman walking along oblivious to the whereabouts of their kids struggling to keep up with them. Makes you want to slap them.

[Shmarya]

I instantly knew the poor kid was a Lubavitcher. From that I speculated that you'd be making mention of this on your blog.

It is by no means clear the family is Chabad. Schneur Zalman is anme used throughout the haredi world, although it is found most commonly in Chabad.

[avrohom]

they have so many so that failed scotty and his cohorts in the SS offices not know where to start from...and that failed scotty will remain a failed and flse idol for the rest of his life

[Sarah]

Someone posted that "There is a serious need for parental skills training." There is a just as serious a need for birth control.

[Yochanan]

Perhaps the title should've been "Why do people have more children than they can handle?" Or "How retarded can a parent be?"

[rebeljew]

I am rather shocked at the cavalier attitude of the commentors in this case. Anyone who has ever been to the beach knows what swift and unexpected currents can do, and the kid was not a baby but an 8 year old, who would need supervision, but not the constant watch afforded a two year old. Note that the kid was mature enough not to panic and took the steps to save his life.

We can discuss the merits or not of having too many children, but this case has nothing to do with parental negligence or forgetting about the kids. It could have happened anywhere, to anyone, and has happened in Florida, California etc. Obviously, the parents took appropriate steps when they realized the kid wasn't where he should be when it started getting dark. That is why they use the "buddy system" in camp, but this was a less formal family outing.

These attitudes of trying to pin total responsibility for an accident on parents who were obviously worried beyond belief would be more at home at a Republican pep rally than on this blog.

[shame on shmarya]

Hmm. Let me try to rephrase shmaryas line above to show exactly how unbelievably offensive his recent postings have become: "why do inner-city blacks have so many children? Because its not a big deal if one goes missing?"

Is that a comment anyone would take lightly if shmarya had made it after one of the recent stories that concern minority parents who abandon a child?

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Perhaps the title should've been "Why do people have more children than they can handle?" Or "How retarded can a parent be?"

This is a different Yochanan, not me.

[avrohom]

of course shame of scotty and on everyone else who protests on every single sneeze made by observant jews but when he makes this racist antismemtic crack he is not taken to task. he hates observant jews with apssion and yes he would be the first one to scream bloody murder had the heading been "why do inner cities ...." epsecially if the heading would of have been about ethiopian people but when the talk is about observant jews he is laughing....what an animal

[PishPosh]

And of course those who commit homicide thru their gross negligence get nothing compared to someon who kicks a dog. What son of a bitch can forget he has a child in his car. Who is that oblivious, and for the law not to file charges??? Accidental Death??? This putz should have his own accidental death and may he suffer to end.

"August 8, 2003, the body of Mark Warschauer's first son Michael was discovered in the backseat of Warschauer's car in the UC Irvine parking lot. Only 10 months old, "Mikey" had died of heat stroke. Warschauer told police he had intended to take Mikey to a day care center before going to his office, but had simply forgotten the boy was with him. Two months later prosecutors announced that they would not pursue criminal charges against Mark Warschauer, ruling the boy's death accidental.[2] Following the tragic event, Warschauer became active in groups educating parents about children's safety in and around cars.[3] He and his wife went on to have three subsequent children."

[Shmarya]

Funny how it is that every bein hazman (summer recess) haredim in wildly disproportionate numbers get lost while hiking and need rescue, lose children in lakes, rivers, seas and oceans only to notice them missing hours later, and have various other sundry events that are so extreme and so noticeable that the Israeli media wrote about it this year BEFORE the summer break started.

This stuff happens so often to haredim because haredim do not take proper precautions and they do not have proper safety training. And one more reason – they have many children and let them run wild, another problem noted with regularity all year 'round on the streets of Jerusalem, Bnei Brak, Beitar Illit, etc.

[avrohom]

"And one more reason – they have many children and let them run wild, another problem noted with regularity all year 'round on the streets of Jerusalem, Bnei Brak, Beitar Illit, etc."

as someoneelse said imagine an observantjew writing: "the inner city blacks have so many kids and would not give a ....for them"

and what if one write "hthe ethiopians hav so many children in such a poor and unheathy enviroment... this animal go bloody murder biut he is entitled to do the same to observant jews. an antisemitic racist animal

[Abe]

Avrohom,

Inner city blacks and other groups that spawn too many children should rightly be condemned too. I don't want my taxes dedicated to supporting a negligent and neglectful society in the USA, be they white or black. My sentiments are similarly directed at ignorant haredim who raise more children than they can handle and are destined themselves to lives of ignorance and poverty.

exactly, avrohom. Shmarya's double standard is nauseating.

[Yos]

Let's face it, people with a lot of kids aren't that interested with keeping up with them. Be they Irish, Blacks, Hispanic or... wait for it... Charedim.

Or Mormons. Those people are freaks.

[Yisroel]

Shmarya,

Are you married? And do you have any children?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"We can discuss the merits or not of having too many children, but this case has nothing to do with parental negligence or forgetting about the kids."

It's unclear how long it took the father to realize his son was missing, but the story mentions it wasn't until after dark that he noticed. The implication is not a positive one.

To: Neo-Conservaguy,

Are you married? And do you have any kids?

[pushkina]

There is a wonderful orthodox woman in DEnver, CO, who discovered that 'unwanted' jewish children were being left in hospitals in new york by haredi families who already had 14-15 kids. why were these babies unwanted? because usually they were retarded or had spina bifida or had some other kind of problem that their families couldn't handle or didn't want others to know about for fear of what it might mean for the shidduchim of their other kids.

These left behind kids were then made wards of the state and adopted out to Xtian families, because all the US jewish welfare agencies have a policy that "there are no unwanted jewish children" and that if there are jewish children who are abandoned, better that goyim take them, so that just in case, they wouldn't marry a close relative.

so this wonderful woman created the jewish childrens' adoption network, to be able to place these sorts of kids in jewish families, to be able to maintain the integrity of their jewish souls. for years she has recieved all kinds of flak from the official jewish welfare community but she keeps on placing those kids.

to me, she it truly one of the 36 righteous ones.

when she told me in the early 90s about her organisation, run from her kitchen table, about how there were satmarer (and other chasidic groups) mothers who would just walk away from a less than perfect baby or young haredi girls who would take up with non-jewish guys, get pregnant and produce perhaps, a mixed race baby (these are just two examples) and abandon it to whatever fate, i was sickened. i was especially sickened because there are so many infertile jewish couples out there who would be so happy to have ANY kind of jewish baby, retarded. mixed race, part native american or whatever.

we were even blessed enough to have been offered one of these babies for adoption, but australia wouldn't allow us to adopt the poor thing (his white jewish mother had an affair with a black jamaican and didn't want her parents to know) even though as a jew, he most likely would be lost.

it is not only haredim who commit these kinds of crimes against their children, we jews are a funny animal: we want perfect children but if not, well, they can be disposed of somehow.

[Fro]

I find it interesting that people find fault with the double standard proposed by Shmarya. Why is that an issue? Shmarya has never claimed to not be a Jew and, from what I know, still identifies as a Jew. As such, he is part of the greater Jewish community. Do we not all expect more from our brothers then the random person on the street?
As someone who was brought up in a religious home and then left after many years, I can say I still feel the same way. When I see a Jew, especially a religious one, acting inappropriately or strait out wrongly, I hold him much more accountable for his actions. I hold him on a higher plain. Perhaps that is bigoted to some degree, but I believe the double standard is present in everyone's life.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Six Lubavitchers stranded in boating mishap

The Coast Guard says they had a very fortunate outcome despite the lack of cell phones and no marine radio on board. D'oh!

[Yochanan Lavie]

I love children, but recent experiences have made me a misanthrope. Children nowadays are left to run amok and go feral. Go into any store or family restaurant and they are shrieking, running around indoors, bumping into you w/o apology, or standing and blocking your way. I have noticed this trend in all races and socioeconomic groups: afluent Orthodox Jews, inner city Blacks and Latinos, and even white suburbanites. Everywhere you go, there is rudeness and boorish behavior, with parents apathetically standing by. (As a traditional, albeit not Orthodox Jew, I am particularly embarrassed by the shanda and Chillul Hashem of rude frum children).

As a teacher, I also notice school aged children, both w/parents and unattended, all hours of the night on school nights. Go into any inner city neighborhood, and you'll see what I mean. (My Black and Latino colleagues are equally appalled by it- more so perhaps because they want to uplift their people). This particular problem is not a "frum" issue, but I think it's symptomatic of the larger problem.

As a child, I had serious emotional difficulties, but despite that fact my parents insisted on socializing me. There was such a thing as an "Indoor voice" (something I still lapse in occasionally), you don't block people's paths, you don't run indoors, and you excuse yourself when you bump into people. These rules were enforced despite my problems. Nowadays, fugetaboutit.

I wonder if children were similarly neglected in the late days of the Roman Empire, or the Weimer Republic. Although Jews like to think of themselves as exceptional, a breakdown in civility is a symptom of a breakdown in civilization.

[Neandershort]

Nowhere in the quoted article is their any evidence supporting Shmarya's first sentence. The missing boy was on an outing with his father and two brothers. Three kids, that's all. Hardly out-of-control fecundity. As soon as the boy's absence was discovered, all concerned went into action. It was treated as a big deal. Shmarya himself admits that it could have happened to anyone anywhere. The police did not file charges, but no doubt that father will be punishing himself to the end of his days.
So that sentence about not a big deal if a child goes missing is in the realm of Purim Torah. But Purim comes only once a year. And yes, I am married and I do have kids, b"h grown.

[Neandershort]

Yochanan Lavie - What and where do you teach?

[Shmarya]

The father did not realize the 8 year old child was missing until it became dark and he could not find him. Before that, presumably, he was busy shmoozing with his friends and was not watching his children as they swam in an inland sea.

[Yoni]

You idiot, if you follow Israeli news so much you would've noted that a week ago an utterly non-religious guy with only two kids left his baby girl in a locked car in incredibly hot weather. When he came back to the car an hour and a half later she was of course dead. Wanna use that story to extrapolate some moral regarding the way chilonim treat their kids, genius?

[Shmarya]

Moron.

Every bein hazmanin there are dozens of incidents like this with haredim. Hiking without water or maps. Boating without life preservers. Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. Over and over and over again.

They cost the state hundreds of thousands of dollars every year and risk the lives of rescue personnel.

The media writes about it. People talk about it. Rabbis belatedly try to address it. But it just keeps happening.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Neadershort:

I teach English at a public high school in Harlem, and I adjunct at a Jewish-oriented college. If you want more details, contact me off blog via Shmarya.

Regards: Yochanan.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

One of Shmarya's great failings is that he is not married and that he has no kids. That's too bad for him, but good for his kids.

There are probably over one million "hareidim" in the world. Amazingly, news of a "hareidi" tragedy anywhere in the world spreads across the hareidi world and is taken to heart by the million or so "hareidim."

How many tragedies happen daily in a city of a million people? A lot more than we hear about every Bain Hazmanim!

Shmarya's criticisms of "hareidim" are becoming more and more tragically twisted. It is obvious to everyone that he has no spiritual or familial connection to Judaism.

The efforts he continues to invest in his imagined construction of an immoral people living by an immoral Torah indicates that he feels he must run from some kind of truth. Some in modern psychology would say that he profoundly fears an eventuality of having to embrace the Torah as such eventuality would leave him ashamed and confused beyond survivability.

He is afflicted with more than just wickedness. It is a Ruach Shtus that none of us should ever experience, R"L.

Anyway, while all us hardy Hareidi adventurers are having the wildest time this summer, let's remember that miserable Shmarya is just to uncool to be able to get away from his computer and do something fun.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Smarya said:
"Every bein hazmanin there are dozens of incidents like this with haredim. Hiking without water or maps. Boating without life preservers. Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. Over and over and over again."

Boating without life jackets? Who is renting boats to hareidis without also providing the lifejackets? Oh, you mean that the hareidim have their own boats? No, it's the Hiloni mariner who is renting them the boat without lifejackets, just like he rents to his hiloni customers.

Hiking without water or maps? Sounds like a patently hareidi thing to do.

Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. What kind of loser looks for a river with a lifeguard? I never swim in a river that has a lifeguard.

[Alex]

"Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. What kind of loser looks for a river with a lifeguard? I never swim in a river that has a lifeguard."

Bain Hazmanim Adventurer = shark food

[Shmarya]

"Every bein hazmanin there are dozens of incidents like this with haredim. Hiking without water or maps. Boating without life preservers. Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. Over and over and over again."

Boating without life jackets? Who is renting boats to hareidis without also providing the lifejackets? Oh, you mean that the hareidim have their own boats? No, it's the Hiloni mariner who is renting them the boat without lifejackets, just like he rents to his hiloni customers.

Hiking without water or maps? Sounds like a patently hareidi thing to do.

Swimming in rivers without lifeguards. What kind of loser looks for a river with a lifeguard? I never swim in a river that has a lifeguard. Etc., ad nauseum.

Like the case of the Chabad students who went out boating off Long Island early this week but 'forgot' their cell phones in the trunk of their rental car.

When fog rolled in they got lost and could not call for help.

The marina demands that boaters either rent a two way radio OR take a cell phone on board (cell phones have very good coverage on the water in that area).

Or like the big communal payer meeting called in Israel because of the tragedies that have recently (i.e., during bein hazmanim) happened.

People like you who cover up these deficiencies in the haredi community perpetuate those deficiencies. Better you should try to bring change.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

"Or like the big communal payer meeting called in Israel because of the tragedies that have recently (i.e., during bein hazmanim) happened."

Right Shmarya, prayer is useless. Those Hareidis live dangerously and their only effort toward safety is prayer. What losers! They should try to just be more careful on their vacations, then no accidents will visit that population of a million or so...

"People like you who cover up these deficiencies in the haredi community perpetuate those deficiencies. Better you should try to bring change."

I'm not covering anything up. People will always do stupid things. And haredis (and lubavitchers and RWMOs, etc) ARE people after all. What's clear is that the vacation adventure mishap is not endemic to hareidim, and estimably, the Hareidi community has a better safety record than the general shlub population when it comes to their outings, trips and adventures.

Keep in mind, we hear about every Hareidi tragedy and near tragedy. We do not hear about every tragedy or near tragedy of the general population, but we can estiimate that per million, the occurences are higher worldwide than among the Hareidim (who pray and do other stupid stuff like that, and care responsibly for the welfare of their chilren's souls).

[Yochanan Lavie]

Prayer is not useless, but we should not rely on miracles. Or else we should send unarmed tehillim chanting yeshiva students into Hamastan to be slaughtered.

[Shmarya]

And you avoid my point. Every year, haredim go on vacation and literally dozens, if not hundreds, of these events happen.

Most take place because of poor or non-existent safety training and distain for secular laws, like the laws that mandate life preservers, etc.

I mentioned the prayer meeting not to disdain prayer, but to point out that haredim themselves see that a problem exists.

Their solution to that problem is to pray and to look for community 'sins.'

A better solution would be to teach young haredim to respect and obey secular law and to have basic safety and health education in haredi schools.

[Shmarya]

My above comment was directed to BHA.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

My point was that there does not exist this disdain for laws among any cross section of Hareidim. That is your fictional construct, and your constant revisiting that fiction shouts out your absolute disconnect from the reality of Judaism today.

"Hundreds" of mishaps every Bain Hazmanim? What about the millions in the "secular" world. Nothing is out of proportion. Nothing is endemic. And nothing indicates a prevailing disdain for laws and safety.

You knew a few Lubabs who were racist or whatever. Your narrow experience, and your fantasied view of that experience, is a poor basis for your view of Orthodox "reality".

Your grasping at issues here is just proof of your utter psychological and social failings.

Now do something fun and safe before summer is over. The fresh air may do you some good.

[Shmarya]

My point was that there does not exist this disdain for [secular] laws among any
cross section of Hareidim.

ROTFLMAO! That's very funny! Are you a professional comedy writer?

"Hundreds" of mishaps every Bain Hazmanim? What about the millions in the "secular" world. Nothing is out of proportion. Nothing is endemic.

Even haredim don't claim this. That's why they have prayer gatherings to deal with the crisis.

You knew a few Lubabs who were racist or whatever. Your narrow experience, and your fantasied view of that experience, is a poor basis for your view of Orthodox "reality".

Let's see. I lived, worked and learned in Chabad and Litvishe communities. I worked with Jews from across Orthodoxy, both in North America and in Israel (even a bit in Western Europe, as well.) I also worked with non-Orthodox Jews from all over the world.

Who were the most racist? Haredim, especially Chabad.

I deal with many people from outside of Orthodoxy who deal with haredim on a regular basis, often in professional capacities. To a person they all note the racism prevalent in haredi society. They also note the gaps in secular education and their effects on haredim.

You shill for a community that does not need your lies – it needs straight talk. It needs to, at the very minimum, recognize that basic health and safety education is essential for its children.

Your pathetic attempts at PR will not help them.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

PR? It's called "reasonable perspective" (RP).

Your declarations are extremist hype.

If I were an extremist Hareidi PR person, I would say that the hareidi world is perfect, better in all respects, etc.

I am saying that Hareidim are normal people as a class. There are the good, average and bad Hareidim in all manners of measure, just like any other society. That is tolerated by all people of reason.

Your extremist hyped view of Hareidim is pronounced with unqualified statements and questionable anecdote.

My responses are an argument of statistical behaviors and natural distribution. That is understood by reasonable people, who unless they are infected with some prejudice or hatred, would see no overall bad behavior by Hareidim. That's not comedy.

You dismiss it as comedy because your twisted perspective that you have developed for yourself can't tolerate the arguments that Hareidim are normal people with normal people faults and greatnesses. This intolerance indicates a profound fear of something. Have yourself checked out by any well regarded, peer-reviewed, secularly educated psychologist, and they would conclude the same.

[Shmarya]

My responses are an argument of statistical behaviors and natural distribution.

And all anecdotal evidence to the contrary, even gathered from professionals who deal with haredi communities and rescue workers who have to pull these people out of lakes and off mountains be dammed, eh?

And don't start in about statistics – haredim famously refuse to cooperate with studies and information gathering.

But of course, you know that.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Wow! Your poor tortured soul is on display for everyone to see. You are not making any points, just raving hype.

I was not speaking of observed statistics. My point is that you project abnormality onto the Hareidim as a class. That is not an honest position. It is more acceptable to a reasonable person, who has a sense of statistical natures, that Hareidim as a class are normal. If they are prejudiced, they would think that hareidim are abnormally good or abnormally bad. Their reasonableness would not be swayed by anecdote, but their prejudice might.

Your anecdote is not an effective argument to a reasonable mind, an neither is my anecdote. That's why I'm not relating my myriad positive anecdotes about the superiority of the Frum world. I admit that that is my prejudice. I am only arguing that your extremism and intolerant prejudice is revealing of your psychoabnormality.

[Shmarya]

I was not speaking of observed statistics.

Then the many stories from professionals – doctors, lawyers, police offices, social workers, etc, – that deal with the haredi community and the stories from rescue workers should be accepted.

yet you reject those stories without having a shred of statistical evidence to rely on.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

The many more positive stories from professionals – doctors, lawyers, police offices, social workers, etc, – that deal with the haredi community and the stories from rescue workers should also be accepted....

[Shmarya]

Except that those stories really do not exist.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

You are defeated here, and anyone can see it.

You are reduced to spouting flippant assertions that do nothing to support your premise.

Your statements continue to reveal your pathetic condition.

You have again betrayed your clumsy tactical posture as a Truth Seeker Whose Criticisms Propagate from Eminent Honesty.

Face it, any sense of honesty you ever had has been obliterated by your Yetzer Hora, which was aided in its amazing success by your arrogance. Your arrogance has gotten you nowhere, and you continue being an absolute failure.

Pretty soon you will have nothing to do with your life but end it, and I am concerned that your evident psychopathology will give rise to a sinister death wish. May God have mercy.

[Shmarya]

Right. Enjoy your Kool-Aide.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Another tactic of yours: always have the last word.

Interesting that your fellow haters like nig and alex aren't helping you out here. Maybe it's because they're just being a little more objective in light of my arguments which are fashioned of a scientific method.

[Shmarya]

Please. You have NOT statistics to support you. You are relying on haredim being just like the norm, even though there is much evidence that puts haredim out of the norm.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Last word again?

Hareidim are a broad class of human beings, therefore they are normal - unless there is a causal fault. Such a fault would be evidenced by statistics, but anybody with a modern understanding of science knows that such statistics are impossible to measure. Your version of observed statistics reflect a prejudice. There is nothing honest about your "statistics". (The same may be true for someone with casual statistics "proving" the superiority of Hareidim. That would also be prejudice.)

An scientific mind would, therefore, not judge Hareidim to be abnormal as a class, irregardless of any volume of anecdote. The scientific assumption is that Hareidim are normal. Society sees this the way I do. Law enforcement personnel, rescue personnel, medical personnel, etc. generally do not have a dim view of Hareidim. Some of them are prejudiced against Haredim, but as many are prejudiced positively about hareidim. That is a presumptive fact. All your screaming that Hareidim are ill regarded by the general population does not make that so. Your not giving up on this one just makes a bigger and bigger fool out of you.

You have demonstrated that you have no understanding of general science. Where has your great secular education gotten you? Your rants prove your ignorance of law, science, economics. The typical yeshiva graduate has a better grasp of all these subjects than you do. Too bad. Do something useful with your mind. Read a primer on science or something.

[Shmarya]

Let's try this again.

1. Haredi schools do not teach basic public health.

2. Haredi schools do not teach basic safety.

3. Haredi schools do not have gym programs and do not teach swimming or outdoor safety.

4. haredi schools do not teach civics and haredi leaders regularly state that secular laws are not binding on haredim.

5. Professionals who work with haredim note that haredim have a poor sense of nutrition, medical and health science, basic safety and, and the same time, tend to disdain secular law.

6. Rescue workers, police, coast guard and military all notice a large increase in rescues during the weeks after Tisha b'Av until haredi school resumes in Elul. A disproportionately high number of those needing rescue are haredim.

7. You disregard 1 through 5 and then dismiss six, taken alone, as being "unscientific."

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

1 through 5: Which Hareidi school did you attend?

#6: Who the hell says that "Rescue workers, police, coast guard and military all notice a large increase in rescues during the weeks after Tisha b'Av until haredi school resumes in Elul."???

If you tell me that the schools in Meah Shearim don't teach safety, well they are not the ones out there adventuring in the wilderness. Other Hareidi schools? Which ones. What percent of hareidim do they serve? How likely are the attendees of those scholls to be out doing motorsports during bain hazmanim? You are making stuff up, and showing yourself to be a loser.

What safety lessons did you learn in public school? Which Hareidi student today did not learn the same lesson somewhere?

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Where's nig and the other haters?

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

I'm sure you'll spout out another unqualified statement displaying your prejudice again. You may pathetically attempt to "document" something, showing just how unscientific you are.

[Shmarya]

Well, we've cleared this up.

Who the hell says that "Rescue workers, police, coast guard and military all notice a large increase in rescues during the weeks after Tisha b'Av until haredi school resumes in Elul."???

There was just a large article in Ha'aretz about this a couple of weks ago, I think.

And this is common knowledge, even acknowledged by haredi leadership (although they see the cause as unrelated to their school system).

f you tell me that the schools in Meah Shearim don't teach safety, well they are not the ones out there adventuring in the wilderness. Other Hareidi schools? Which ones. What percent of hareidim do they serve? How likely are the attendees of those scholls to be out doing motorsports during bain hazmanim?

You are wrong. Why do you thin Rabbi Elyashiv and Rabbi Steinman banne dhiking this year?

You are making stuff up, and showing yourself to be a loser.

You are ill-informed and showing yourself to be so.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

You are very removed from Frum society. You base your judgements of Haaretz, and other printed of webbased sources, without actually having any experiential knowledge. The few written words you rely on to arrive at your conclusions are not evidence of an abnormality manifest in a certain large population. Of course rabbis care about the safety of their flocks. This is true in other societies and cultures as well. The quotes from "officials" are anecdote or prejudiced opinion. The rate of mishaps among Hareidim was never proven to be abnormal. Haaretz be damned, they didn't measure anything.

Additionally, you have this weird notion that good secular citizens get their safety, health and good citizenship training from their school system. What kind of commie loser are you? What do you know about schools and citizenship training? Your notion is so out of touch with reality, both in America and Israel.

You show me one decent study relating school system policy with good citizenship or safety awareness. You can't, but you'll assert it anyway.

[Shmarya]

I lived in haredi communities, my friend. I worked for and with haredim. I was a haredi.

The rest of what you write is foolish.

There actually are reams of studies that show the positive effects of particular health and safety education in schools.

That – and media-based campaigns which do not work in haredi culture because the only media they regularly see is haredi-controlled – is what works.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

"Reams of studies" - - - your unqualified assertions. You are making something up and standing behind it.

Commies think that a societies schools and media are the best and most effective in citizenship training. MOST people do not. Most people wouldn't suppose that the general population has one standard of safety awareness and that hareidim have a different standard because their schools are so different. That is your weird idea. So again you are defeated in the eyes of reasonable readers.

[Shmarya]

Actually, it's a fundamental principle of Public Health taught in universities all over the world.

That is why so much money and effort is invested in public health and safety campaigns.

And, yes, there really are reams of studies to back this all up, along with empirical successes ranging from the anti-litter campaign (the crying Native American) from the early 1970s through the anti-smoking campaigns of today. That would be empirical successes. And that would be worldwide.

[Shmarya]

From a Jerusalem Post article on a new haredi charity in NY that published a booklet on the economics of summering in the Catskills:"…But for many families, the summer trend of renting a place in a bungalow colony is such a financial stretch that a summer vacation can feel more like a burden than anything else. Just how much trouble it can be was brought to light this summer, when a haredi organization distributed a booklet on how to deal with summer expenses.…

[It] has never been the practice of voluntary agencies in the haredi world to give social advice [on a large scale,]" said R., an editor at a haredi newspaper.

"If the City of New York were to distribute advice on home economics, haredi people would be very suspicious," he said. "You don't trust what you are reading, but written in your own language, in plain, unsophisticated Yiddish, this is a huge leap forward.…"

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

So? R doesn't speak for the whole hareidi world. R also has something of his own to promote, as is evident from your excerpt.

Charities do stuff like that. That's normal.

R's statement that, "If the City of New York were to distribute advice on home economics, haredi people would be very suspicious," is foolish and unrealistic. What is there to be suspicious of? R's statements are in the interest of self promotion, that Yiddish language media are important for the normalization of a hareidi community. It's just the ordinary BS newsprint filler common to all print media today.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Oh, also, I didn't see your other post about empirical successes like the anti smoking campaign. You're an out of touch fool if you don't think these campaigns' successes carried to the hareidi community in equal proportion. It has nothing to do with which schools (in a region) your kids are in. Schools are not what make these campaigns effective. Kids don't learn positive behavior such as not littering from school specifically.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Shmarya,

Your statements, proclamations and arguments here all derive from your hatred of "hareidim" (whatever, specifically they are), and it is clear from almost all of what you post that you hate "hareidim." It is sociologically abnormal for someone to be so bigoted against a social identity. Hareidim are not a race, ethnicity, nationality. They don't even root in unison for the same sports teams or political candidates. Haredism, as you identify it, is just a social identity.

Why the hatred? What is it about "hareidim" and whatever characteristics that unify them that drives you so crazy?

I posit that it is the Torah. That even the most "enlightened" or even disingenuous groups of (Shmarya's classification of) hareidim can't abandon certain immutable principals of the Torah law. For example, Gays can't marry. Homosexual activity is a sin. A gentile is not halachically reliable when it comes to ritual activity. It's a mitzva to eat meat on Shabbos. Slaughter is ritually regulated, etc.

Even LWMOs can't get past these primitive social principals. You hate that. You hate and fear RW Christianity too. You don't blast them however, because you'll look silly saying that the millions of them are "not normal." You also know that there is hope for them to become more decadent. But authentic Judaism, you know will not forsake or pervert the Torah principals. And you know that it is here to stay.

Keep hating, but it will do you good to visit the core of your abnormality. You may enlighten yourself a little. You can completely leave Judaism or embrace it more, but where you are right now is worse for your soul than either.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Everyone,

See Shmarya get his a** kicked in a debate right on his own blog!!!

Look at last week's post about "Why Hareidim have so many kids.:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/08/why-do-haredim-.html#comments

Hurry, Bain Hazmanim is almost over. The fun can't last forever!

[AC]

I'm glad bein hazmanim is finally over, now you can go back to smokin cigarettes and shteigin

[Shmarya]

AC-

That's about it, isn't it?

[ed]

>I'm glad bein hazmanim is finally over....

You still have to put up with me. My schedule isn't dependant on Bain Hazmanim.

And great job, Reb Bain Hazmanim. You kicked em right where it hurts.

[pushkina]

'You knew a few Lubabs who were racist or whatever. Your narrow experience, and your fantasied view of that experience, is a poor basis for your view of Orthodox "reality".'
i feel i must weigh-in on the colorism and racism of ortho (haredi and otherwise) communities.

as a graduate student, i lived in boro park; coming from LA where i had been brought up in a yekke high reform community (which at the end of the first day of pre-school, my mother was asked to remove me ebecause i, as a 'colored' child [my fahter 's family came from ethiopia], made the other parents uncomfortable), i felt that i would be exposed to a true, authentic judaism there. (i had thought that about lubavitch also, but was pretty quickly disabused of that thought when i went to the chabad house in LA the frist time.)

i think that most ba'ali tschuvah who had recived suburban Reform / Conservative Hebrew school educations went/go toward hasidism or hareidim in search of soemthing that is an authentic judaism, often only to be severly disappointed.

in any event, i was the housemate of two iranian muslim graduate students, very religious, but 'reform' muslims, who in iran had been educated at a famous jewish school.

we lived on a block that was a 'belzer' block; everyone on the block (except us and the couple who owned the building) were belzer hasidim. my housemates, truly believing in particpating in whatever is/was Holy, used to act as shabbat goyim for the shtiebel at the corner, turning the furnace and lights off at night and back on on Shabbat mornings. everyone in the neighborhood knew them, knew all of us obviously. the chasid who owned the corner grocery used to quiz me on things he believed a jews should know, and i passed his questions. however, when i would pass the neighbors talking in yiddish, i would sometimes hear them marvel about the kindness of the 'persicher kinder' but i would also hear them talking about the 'schwartze maidl' or the 'schwartze kurveh' even sometimes. these pious women in their model's coats, congregating at their gates would have such nice things to say about 'the boys with the beards' but nothing even nice about me in their gossip. these modest women would even sometimes speak to and/or answer the boys but never me. but i figured, that is brooklyn.

even here in sydney, when i came here to marry a 'secular' hungarian of all things, the word was out that i was as 'black as the ace of spade' with 'monkey fur for hair.' a dozen years later, not much has changed.

jews of all varieties, ortho, MO, Reform, Conservative, American, European, Israeli and anything else, can be as racist as the KKK, indeed i believe that many would be the first to join up, if they only could.

Randy Newman has a great line in a song about just that:
"Her brothers and her sisters drove down from jackson, mississippi
In a great green hudson driven by a gentile they knew.
Drinkin rye whiskey from a flask in the back seat
Tryin to do like the gentiles do
Christ, they wanted to be gentiles, too.
Who wouldnt down there, wouldnt you?
An american christian, God damn!"

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Pushkina honey,

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences. I know that racism and "xenophobia" exist in all populations, including the various Jewish ones. Small-mindedness also exists among city dwellers who congregate on the street to gossip.

Anyway, without knowing you, I have a couple comments in general about disaffected BT's and their experiences with "xenophobia". First of all, many Jews are awkward around Geirim (or what they think might be a Ger). They are not sure what is right or wrong to say. There is often a strong sense of curiosity tempered by a fear of violating the Torah's laws protecting Geirim. This can lead to weird remarks or offensive behavior.

The Ger or BT is usually self conscious, and often thinks they sense some form of disapproval, distrust, gawking or bigotry. I imagine that more times than not, the Ger/BT senses something that isn't there.

(In your case, I wonder whether your Yiddish is that good to have really understood what the women were saying. I don't doubt that they could have been making racist remarks, but I would suspect that you were probably judging based on your sensitivity rather than your actual comprehension of their exchanges.)

Anyway, your post noted that racism exists, but do not seem to say that it is prevalent among hareidim (as Shmarya would).

I will say, as an insider, kollel FFB, that racism is not at all prevalent, some "xenophobia" is common and sometimes justified based on circumstances. Stereotyping is as common in the Hareidi world as it is outside of it. A Hareidi is more likely to joke about rednecks than blacks. They may joke about HipHop culture, etc. but not blacks (for their race) per se.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Oops, premature posting.

I meant to add that sometimes the disaffected "outsider" refuses to behave in a manner that the group (belz or whatever) expects from a genuine hareidi. That may be why they are not showing acceptance. If they really were calling you a kurvah, I would wonder about how you dressed or how you carried yourself. (I'm not pointing a finger at you, It's just a suspicion based on your version of the story.)

Sincerely BHA,
(related to Geirim)

[Dayan Ben]

Shmarya and BHA-
I just took the liberty to peruse your lengthy banter. A few observations:

1) The name calling is childish, for both of you. There is a very fine line between a educated discussion and a unsettling screaming match, and the two of you have long crossed it.

2)Anyone who reads Shmarya's Bio, or keeps track of his Blog and has a modicum of intuition will know that he has a tendency to focus on the shortcoming's of the Haredi and Chabad worlds. Shmarya's devotion to the issues challenging these communities is a direct outcome of his personal experiences. This does NOT mean that he believes all Chabad/Hareidim are bad, rather that certain policies and people are subject to careful scrutiny.
Further, as a 'themed' blog, the content SHOULD be critical... if while editorializing Shmarya crosses a line with a unfair comment, readers should respectfully call him on it. You may be surprised at the consensus that can be reached.

3) Although not all sources were cited, the general thrust of the argument would be in Shmarya's favor. I do not always agree with him, but in this event he presented facts which can be immediately denied by anyone who is familiar with the Haredi education system at large. Yes, some communities may have exceptional educational records, but the norm is evident in the lacking curriculum and news reports.

One last word: Everyone is biased, even BHA. Even the news agencies, who report on the Haredim and their irresponsability and even holy Jews of all shapes, sizes and colors.
If you are someone who cannot seperate concrete and verifiable facts from the editorializing and opinions, it is because you are too involved with justifying your own self-righteous opinion.

[Bain Hazmanim Adventurer]

Thank you for your intercession Dayan,

(pant, pant , huff, puff)

OK I splashed some cold water on my face.

Now,

1) I admitted that I have bias, and I carefully made points that (regarding the Hareidi community) did not assert anything positive or counteractive to Shmarya's bias.

2) I only borrowed language from Shmarya when I engaged in name calling (namely "fool"). Describing someone as pathetic or psychologically abnormal based on the sincerity in which they advance unreasonable arguments is not name calling. It's a perceptive observation.

3) "(The) norm is evident in the lacking curriculum and news reports."
You're completely off base here. I am not arguing whether there are "some exceptional" schools/communities. I am saying that any argument that the norm among Hareidim is worse than the general norm, is not unbiased and without prejudice. The "scientific" presumption is that Hareidim are normal, and any assertion that they are abnormal is prejudiced as it can only be argued with anecdotal experience (at best) and the existence of remarkably different anecdote is a given. Saying that there "do not exist" many positive stories from law enforcement, clinicians, bureaucrats, etc. is revealing of a loudly sophistic debating stance.

And on the last point:

My exposition was manifestly not in answer to Shmarya's specific claims. My purpose was to articulately point out, insurmountably, that Shmarya's purpose in nearly all his posts is to rant against whatever he identifies as Hareidi. A reasonable person would not find fault with an entire population or even a majority of a population, even if the negative reports on these incidents were taken at face value. A reasonable person understands that individuals are capable of doing bad stuff regardless of which society they are identified with.