The Jewish Press and Plagiarism, Part 2

I wanted to give the Jewish Press a chance to respond to my Thursday, August 23 post revealing the gross plagiarism committed by one of its most well-known columnists, Rabbi Gershon Tannenbaum.

To do that, immediately after posting the original story, I emailed Jason Maoz, the editor of the Jewish Press. I sent a link to the story, asked him for his response, and included four specific questions.

Many hours later, when Jason Maoz had not responded, I called the Jewish Press to speak with him. I was told he had left the office moments before. At the secretary's suggestion, I left him a voice mail. He did not respond to that, either.

Here are the qustions I asked Maoz in that email:

1. What is the JP policy on plagiarism?

2. How does this policy effect a regular, weekly columnist who has violated it?

3. Will Rabbi Tannenbaum's column be withdrawn?

4. Will he remain a weekly columnist?

Rabbi Tannenbaum is said to be close to members of the Klass family, founders of the Jewish Press. This may explain why a plagiarized column is still posted on its website without correction or emendation more than two full days after being notified of the theft. It may also explain why a man with a thirty-plus-year record of fraud and SEC violations has a weekly column in "America's largest independent Jewish newspaper," and the current silence of its editor, Jason Maoz, as well.

The Jewish Press and Plagiarism, Part 1 is posted here.

Comments

[jj]

shmarya , i just took my french g/f to buddha bodai. thanks for telling us about it! it was awesome.

[jewish mess]

tannenbaum is related to the klass family

[Anonymous]

How is Tannenbaum related to the Low Klass family?

[Anonymous]

Another blatant sign that Shmarya is a HYPOCRITE if he eats at / recommends Buddha Bodai.

Rabbi Israel Steinberg is a fraud who advertises he is Yeshiva Torah Vodaath when his kosher "standards" are a farce. He knows he's full of it and does not eat from his own certification.

His clients are allowed to open on Shabbos. He provides close to no supervision while taking his fee. His vegetarian restaurants serve insect infested fare.

Shmarya lambasts Rubashkin (with good reason) and refrains from eating any meat, yet Shmarya does not apply his shita equally to other charlatans. I guess it's too hard for him to impose any more restrictions on himself when it comes to stuffing his face.

[jewishwhistleblower]

Can any one shed light on the following?

A) Civil judgements and tax liens:

1. Debtors: SARAH TANNENBAUM; GERSHON TANNENBAUM, Secured Parties: THE CITY OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING PRESERVATION & DEVELOPMENT, INITIAL FILING, 9/27/1993, 93204576, NYUCC

2. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, JUDGMENTS DOCKET, 11/08/2002, 98-2277JWL, US DISTRICT COURT, QUEENS COUNTY CLERKS OFFICE

3. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, JUDGMENTS DOCKET, 11/08/2002, 98-2277JWL, US DISTRICT COURT, KINGS COUNTY CLERKS OFFICE

4. TANNENBAUM, SARAH, INITIAL FILING, 10/01/1993, 93PK17660, NY City UCC Filings

5. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, 2606496, 5/31/1996, JUDGMENT, JUDGMENT - CITY COURT OF NEW YORK - BROOKLYN

6. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, 2606496, 5/31/1996, JUDGMENT, VACATED, JUDGMENT - CITY COURT OF NEW YORK - BROOKLYN

7. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, 2606596, 5/31/1996, JUDGMENT, JUDGMENT - CITY COURT OF NEW YORK - BROOKLYN

8. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, 2606596, 5/31/1996, JUDGMENT, VACATED, JUDGMENT - CITY COURT OF NEW YORK - BROOKLYN

9. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, JUDGMENTS DOCKET, 01/07/2003, 98-2277JWL, US DISTRICT COURT, NEW YORK COUNTY CLERKS OFFICE

10. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, DJ-506479-1997, DJ-00506479-1997, 11/6/1997, TAX LIEN, NJTXLN

11. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, FEDERAL LIEN - INITIAL FILING, 06/11/1997, 97FL30225, NY City UCC Filings

12. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, FEDERAL LIEN - INITIAL FILING, 03/04/1998, 98FL00308, NY City UCC Filings

13. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, FEDERAL LIEN - INITIAL FILING, 04/14/1998, 98FL00577, NY City UCC Filings

14. TANNENBAUM, GERSHON, 308, 3/4/1998, FEDERAL TAX LIEN, KINGS COUNTY CLERK LIEN

B) Assets with his name on the registration documentation:

1. GERSHON TANNENBAUM, xxx BROOKLYN, NY 11219, Kings County, New York, NYPROP

2. JUNGREIS, ISAAC; JUNGREIS, HINDA, xxx MIAMI BEACH, FL 33140-4008, 2/16/2002, Miami-Dade County, Florida, FLSALE

[jewishwhistleblower]

Rabbi Gershon Tannenbaum has a criminal fraud history going back to the 70s.

He was charged and convicted (he plead guilty, withdrew the plea and then plead guilty again) for selling false fake diplomas. He got a fine.

see:
1) Four Accused of Using Mails for Diploma Fraud
By MORRIS KAPLAN
New York Times May 26, 1972, pg. 40

2) Two Rabbis Plead Guilty In Phony-University Plot
By MORRIS KAPLAN
New York Times Jul 14, 1972

3) 2 Brooklyn Rabbis Fined For Running Bogus School
New York Times; Oct 8, 1972

Two Rabbis Plead Guilty in Phony-University Plot
By Morris Kaplan
New York Times
July 14, 1972
p.36

Two Orthodox rabbis pleaded guilty in Federal Court in Brooklyn yesterday to mail-fraud charges arising from their having enrolled students in a fictitious university.

The two mild-mannered defendants – Bernard Fuchs, 22 years old, of 1639 45th Street, and Gershon Tannenbaum, 23, of 1537 41st Street, both in the Borough Park section – admitted that they had mailed brochures, pamphlets and other correspondence under the mythical name of Marlowe University in Mount Holly, N.J.

United States Attorney Robert A. Morse said that prospective students were bilked out of more than $200,000, having paid $400 to $500 apiece for baccalaureate, masters and doctorate degrees they never received.

“Marlowe University” never issued a diploma or conducted any courses and its administrators never intended it to, according to Emanuel A. Moore, an assistant United States attorney in charge of the Eastern District’s consumer protection division.

Postal inspectors said that the amount of the swindle probably would never be learned. A Federal warrant authorized a search of the Rabbinical Assembly Corporation, a Hebrew School at 1319 50th Street, Brooklyn, where the rabbis taught, but the search uncovered nothing.

The rabbis cleaned out all their own files at the school – including records of financial transactions – just before the search, a Postal Service spokesman explained. “The best we can do is to estimate the losses of their victims,” he said. “We learned that they made more than $2,500 in the three weeks preceding their arrest.”

Two Rabbis Rabbis Fined For Running Bogus School
New York Times
October 8, 1972

Two Brooklyn rabbis who had withdrawn pleas of guilty to operating a bogus mail-order university again pleaded guilty in Federal Court in Brooklyn Friday and received suspended sentences and $250 fines.

The two, Bernard Fuchs, 22 years old, of 1639 45th Street and Gershon Tannenbaum, 23, of 1537 41st Street, admitted that they had collected $2,000 from prospective students who enrolled in the fictitious Marlowe University. Its only “campus” was a post office box in Mount Holly, N.J.

Judge George Rosling placed both men on one year’s probation and ordered them to repay the $2,000. An assistant United States attorney, Emanuel A. Moore, said that additional proceeds had been returned.

[Nachman]

jewishwhistleblower:
I have sufficient reason to believe that you have your own can of worms...
Since we do not know who you are, we may never find out 'WHEN' YOUR day of judgment will come around and YOUR name will be besmirched.
על דאטפת אטפוך...
What goes around comes around.

I can't quite understand why ANYONE would 'expose'other people's wrongdoing just for the sake of doing such.

Shmarya:
YOUR intention is to feel good about yourself at least YOU have some cause...

[Isa]

Regarding:
""""I can't quite understand why ANYONE would 'expose'other people's wrongdoing just for the sake of doing such.""""

I cannot believe anyone would ever say this! At least in America we have the expectation of HONEST cops, courts, officials and such! Why should the Jewish house be run like some whorehouse where anything can be bought or sold. I have had direct experience of fake rabbis (no ordination) fake secular education credentials of rabbis and seen for myself that money can just about buy anything. Enough of this crap!! Shine the spot light on ALL these misdeeds!!

[Shmarya]

Another blatant sign that Shmarya is a HYPOCRITE if he eats at / recommends Buddha Bodai.

Non-Jewish-owned and operated, non-meat restaurants can by halakha be open on Shabbat with no restrictions. In fact, there are many p[laces in the US where such establishments are open on Shabbat, including places where the supervision is given by haredim, even Agudah-affiliated haredim.

Add to this the extra safeguard that Buddha Bodai is owned and operated by Jainists. They are even more careful about bugs than haredim are.

But, as usual, the anonymous haredi commenter knowns no actual halakha, knows no etiquette, and behaves like spoiled child.

[mr moose]

Any resonable person has known for years that their are two true things in the Jewish Press the date and the price.

[Anonymous]

"Buddha Bodai is owned and operated by Jainists. They are even more careful about bugs than haredim are."

What a hoot! As if a goy has chezkas kashrus.

And then Shmarya has the gall to say that *I* don't know halacha.

The point is that Steinberg is a fraud that according to Shmarya's standard should be exposed and lambasted. He does virtually no follow up while taking his cut. Why is Shmarya unconcerned that the guy won't even eat from his own "certification"?

[Yisroel]

As a registered democrat, I call for the resignation of John Murtha, for the fraud he tried to commit.
I also call on the other democrats, accused of doing fraud, to step down.
No more ear marks.
After all didn’t the democrat party claim that they will be the party of honesty?

[Nachman]

I will agree that there is plenty of fraud going on in kashruth orgs. There's an old cliche though:
לא ניתנה תורה למלאכי השרת...
The world is not perfect (duh...)
Life must go on and one needs to choose whatever Hashgacha HE feels comfortable trusting and go with that. After all, our existence depends on such trust.

So if Rabbi x is my Rav of choice, so be it, but in no way should I force my opinion on anyone else.

If Rabbi Steinberg's Hashgacha is acceptable to Shmarya Then so be it.
After all it is the rabbi who'll be held accountable for misleading the public...

[Shmarya]

What a hoot! As if a goy has chezkas kashrus.

If you had actually learned poskim, you'd know that, in actuality, a goy does have a hezkat of trustworthiness. All hashgacha is based on that hezkat.

Janists have their own religious-theological reasons for not eating anything that was once sentient and alive. They are very strict about these rules.

Halakha looks at motivation when determining how non-Jews are believed and trusted. Janists are therefore more trustworthy than other non-Jews when it comes to bugs, animal products not used, etc.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya is engaging in acrobatics again. He knows full well that a goy does NOT have a chezkas kashrus in the way that I am referring to. That is why "meat hidden from the eye" for instance needs a double seal, no matter how saintly a goy may be.

Shmarya has no right to come up with his bogus psakim no matter how much his Liberal ideologies (or is that idols?) mean to him.

[Anonymous]

This is hilarious. Shmarya has gone to town for years about Charedim supposedly being too machmir about bugs in vegetables.

Here's the two faced phoney praising Jainists for being ever stricter!

[Shmarya]

Shmarya is engaging in acrobatics again. He knows full well that a goy does NOT have a chezkas kashrus in the way that I am referring to. That is why "meat hidden from the eye" for instance needs a double seal, no matter how saintly a goy may be.

Which is why I specifically wrote "non-meat" restaurant.

Besides being a rude person, you do not understand the halakhot involved.

Almost every kosher product you buy has no mashgiach temidi (24/7, always on kosher inspection). Most are inspected once or twice per year. Why? A non-Jew is believed for many things, except for meat, wine and matza.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I can't quite understand why ANYONE would 'expose'other people's wrongdoing just for the sake of doing such.

I think in the case of these "rabbis" I believe they should be exposed because they are hypocrites of the highest order. What's so bad about a hypocrite? Well, according to Rabbi Aryeh Carmell, zt"l, they are thieves. They steal our hearts and minds (i.e. גנבת דעת). In the case of the fake college, they also steal our money. Shouldn't people be alerted when thieves are about?

[Sarah]

Hopefully by warning us about these lying and thieving rabbis (and phony rabbis) it will make other so-called religious ones think twice before attempting to commit similar crimes against their fellow Jews and others as well. Isn't Elul the perfect time to do this?
Many of us want to give tzedakah but every time we look into Jewish organizations that supposedly feed and help the poor, we find out that they spend more money on administrative expenses than on the people who need the assistance. It's very depressing.

[Anonymous]

This Rabbi Steinberg, a member of the Igud, provides hashgachot for meat establishments opened on Shabbos and owned by Jews. There is absolutely no constant supervision and thus it would seem that we have a situation of basar shenisalem min haayin.

As to the Jainist establishment, I know from someone who witnessed first hand the existence of non-kosher wines being sold at one of R. Steinberg's establishments. When the rabbi was apprised of this he advised it would be removed. Ten days later it was still there.

[Shmarya]

This Rabbi Steinberg, a member of the Igud, provides hashgachot for meat establishments opened on Shabbos and owned by Jews.

And even that may be okay if there is a non-Jewish partner.

There is absolutely no constant supervision and thus it would seem that we have a situation of basar shenisalem min haayin.

That would depend on the simanin that the mashgiach has.

As to the Jainist establishment, I know from someone who witnessed first hand the existence of non-kosher wines being sold at one of R. Steinberg's establishments. When the rabbi was apprised of this he advised it would be removed. Ten days later it was still there.

The "Janist establishment" does not even need a hechsher. As for the other restaurant, I do not find you to be reliable. I've had friends who checked with NYC rabbis and the OU regarding Rabbi Steinberg, and all they would say is *MAYBE* he doesn't check thoroughly for bugs.

The problem here is that you really do not understand poskim and your knowledge of halakha is superficial, at best.

[Anonymous]

There is now a second poster using the "Anonymous" moniker. Israel Steinberg is not an Igud member as far as I know. Peretz Steinberg (who joined Kolko-protector Belsky on the fake bittul kiddushin) is an Igud member.

Either Shmarya is naive or he is putting on an act to deceive people. Many rabbis will not give you a straight answer about unreliable hashgochos because they could be sued. This goes on all the time.

If you personally know a rabbi in kashrus who trusts you, he will tell you that you can't trust Steinberg as far as you can throw him.

There is a fleishig restaurant in Downtown Brooklyn owned by an Albanian Jew. They are open on Shabbos and he has no partner.

SHmarya is being disingenious as usual. He still has not answered several questions that raise the spectre of his hypocrisy on this issue.

[Shmarya]

You are positive he did not "sell" a part of his business to a non-Jew?

You are positive?

I know many people in the kashrut business and many well-connected NYC Jews.

I believe you are confused – both about the halakha and about the circumstances in question.

[Anonymous]

1. I do not choose to be combative with you. Suffice it to say, I speak from first-hand knowledge. Because of this I choose to be anonymous. (If my anonymity is compromising of what I have to say, then I understand if you feel you need to delete my message).

2. Joint ownership with a non-Jew, you are claiming, provides mitigating circumstances. I am not 100% positive of the ownership composition of the meat establishments supervised by R. Steinberg but when I spoke to him about one in particular (Ben's) he gave no indication whatsoever that his non-tmidi supervision is justified due to this joint ownership.

3. What is the seeman we're talking about that removes the problem of basar shenisalaym? R. Steinberg's mashgiach is not there whenever meat deliveries are made and the meat is butchered--this I know.

4. If, Shmarya, a restaurant advertises it is under R. Steinberg's hashgacha, do you believe it is acceptable that it sells Stam yayin because it is owned by Jainists?

[Shmarya]

What is the seeman we're talking about that removes the problem of basar shenisalaym? R. Steinberg's mashgiach is not there whenever meat deliveries are made and the meat is butchered--this I know.

Could be based on the weight and the paperwork. Could be based on other things.

But having meat come in and be processed without a mashgiach is a kula, to be sure.

If, Shmarya, a restaurant advertises it is under R. Steinberg's hashgacha, do you believe it is acceptable that it sells Stam yayin because it is owned by Jainists?

Well, you won't like this but there are Rishonim who hold that there is no more yayin nesach today and we don't need to worry about it. There are also poskim who allow stam yayin b'dieved.

It may be Rabbi Steinberg is (if what you report is both true and in context, which I doubt)relying on these poskim to paskin to kula until the wine sells out.

[Observer]

What about Bishul Akum? whos turning on those fires?

[Shmarya]

It's a machloket poskim. Basically, mot of the food can be eaten raw or is not considered hashuv.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

With respect to bishul akum, given that the rabbis have declared one may satisfy this gezera by having a rabbi remotely ignite the pilot light via a telephone interface, is it a surprise that few observant Jews still hold this to be relevant to being a good Jew keeping kosher? Same for yayin stam: anecdotally, I know many "frum" Jews that use kosher wine for qiddush but otherwise have no issue drinking yayin stam. Do you really think there is a Christian priest sneaking around blessing the giant processing vats at most wineries? Things change.

[Anonymous]

Do readers remember when Shmarya took potshots at Rabbi Blumenkrantz the day he died - BEFORE he was even buried - for being machmir on bugs.

Shmarya deems Charedi rabbis to be demonic you see. If you are Black or a Jain however, you can do whatever fanatical things you want and it's just fine and dandy.

Jains refuse food obtained with unnecessary cruelty. Many are vegan due to the violence of modern dairy farms, and others exclude root vegetables from their diets in order to preserve the lives of the plants from which they eat. Potatoes, garlic and onions in particular are avoided by Jains. Devout Jains do not eat, drink, or travel after sunset.

Jain monks walk barefoot and sweep the ground in front of them to avoid killing any insects.

Some wear either the muhapatti or possibly a small card over their mouths so as to avoid accidentally inhaling even a single insect when awake.

Jains do not drink unboiled water because it contains billions of micro-organisms.

[Avichai Phelps]

A while back Tenebaum wrote those glowing articles about Leib Tropper and his bait And switch organizations. Readers can check the archives here and on UOJ to see that Tropper and his enabler Thomas Kaplan are made from the cloth as Tenenbaum and just as crooks.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya deems Charedi rabbis to be demonic you see. If you are Black or a Jain however, you can do whatever fanatical things you want and it's just fine and dandy.

Jains still eat far more vegetables than haredim. Why? Because Jain extremism is still less severe in real life impact than haredi insanity.

That said, this is not a blog about Jains – it is a blog about Jews. Of course you know that.

[Anonymous]

As usual, Shmarya cannot answer the substance of the questions posed to him. He throws out accusations that people that he doesn't know from a hole in the wall are not learned.

It was Shmarya who brought up the subject the Jains. When you engage him, him chides you for being off topic.

And here's a real howler:

"Because Jain extremism is still less severe in real life impact than haredi insanity."

The above is how Shmarya describes Jains who won't walk anywhere unless barefoot while sweeping with a broom, who avoid all root vegetables and will not even imbibe filtered water because of microscopic organisms.

Jains are cool but Charedim are "insane" in the topsy turvy world of Shmarya Rosenberg.

[Abe]

To Anonymous:

So the haredim are justified because they are less of a bunch of crackpots than the Jains. That's a nice compliment for the haredim.

[Anonymous]

Hey Abe, Shmarya doesn't need an echo but that's the kind of non-answer he usually comes back with to skirt the question.

[Anonymous]

SHmarya also doesn't take issue with Steinberg misleading people with bold print about Torah Vodaath. What Steinberg is doing is not the yeshiva's standard whatsoever. Steinberg of course knows this since he doesn't eat from himself.

SHmarya is all of sudden hands off when he wants to stuff his face and promote some ethnic minority that he cherishes more than Jews.

[Anonymous]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-me-hate25aug25,1,4554469.story?coll=la-news-a_section

Blacks attacking Haredi Jews in Los Angeles. How is Shmarya going to figure out that the Jews deserve it?

[Isa]

HEY ANONYMOUS!!!!
I read that LA Times article NOWHERE did it mention the race of the attackers ONLY a black CAR was used by the attackers. It could have been skin heads, could have been Hispanics, could have been this ot that or maybe even dumb high school kids on a 'prank'. Latest dumb high school prank is to shout "FIRE IN THE HOLE" and toss a drink in at the drive up window, saw that on Utube.

[Shmarya]

Try to process:

Janist MONKS do those extremist things. Janist monks do NOT, as a mission in life, attempt to get non-monks to become extreme. They do not have recruitment centers set up to lure unsuspecting Buddhists to extreme Jainism.

In other words, they do not behave like haredim.

As for Rabbi Steinberg, all I can say is that you are far from a trustworthy source. You are repeatedly wrong about halakha and you argue like a small child.

Many rabbis give hasgacha to products they themselves will not eat. But you are far dishonest to admit this (or, more likely, far too ignorant to know this).

Here is a brief, partial list:
1. The OK which certifies non-pas yisroel and non-halav yisrael products its rabbis will not eat.

2. United Mehadrin Kosher, which does the same, along with certifying non-glatt meat, which its rabbis will not eat.

3. Many rabbis working for OU kashrus are machpid on halav yisrael, pas yisrael, and other areas of halakha that the OU is not machpid on. Yet they work for the OU and certify those products.There are two basic philosophies of hashgacha.

One is to certify only what the certifying rabbi will himself eat.

The other is to certify at a particular standard different from that of the certifying rabbi. The idea here is usually to make kosher food widely available.

Anonymous, it is time for you to apologize for your foolishness. Do so and then go away.

[Anonymous]

Jainist Monks take SOME of those extreme measures. The others are practiced by regular adherents of Jainism.

They may not behave like Haredim but they are much better behaved than Shmarya who always throws insults as his opponents (who is the child?) to try to diminsh their credibilty to the readers.

There is a huge difference between rabbanei machshir not eating their own label because of chumros on milk, bread, glatt, etc and what Steinberg is doing.

[Anonymous]

The ONLY thing that Jainist Monks do that is different from the population is to walk barefoot while sweeping bugs out of the way. ALL the other EXTREME practices regarding bugs are either practiced by ALL Jains or at least the Svetambar, one of the two Jain sects.

So who is it that is willfully distorting facts or just plain ignorant? Sounds like Shmarya takes grand prize.

[Anonymous]

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=18097

The LA Times is too politically correct to say the attackers are Negroes. Their editors are a bunch of Shmarya type über-Liberals who would keel over and die if they had to admit that pallor challenged folks are responsible for violent crime.

The LA Jewish Journal identifies them as BLACK.

[Shmarya]

Jainist Monks take SOME of those extreme measures. The others are practiced by regular adherents of Jainism.

This is like arguing with a child.

1. The regular stringencies Jainists follow still allow them to eat far more vegetables than haredim.

2. In even the stricter of the two Jainist sects this is true.

3. Jainists do not try to tell others that their methods of being religious are false and not good enough and they do not attempt to inflict their beliefs on others.

4. The original issue of discussion here was plagiarism. You hijacked this to carp about perceived deficiencies in the kashrut of a Jainist-run restaurant.

You are so caught up in your attempts to prove others wrong that you do not even see what you are saying.

I pointed out that Jainists are more careful about bugs than Jews are, and that their inspection of vegetables can be relied on.

What you posted only supports what I wrote.

Further, you do not understand even the basic halakhot of hashgacha. As I pointed out above, all hashgacha is based on trust. The cookies you eat, the potato chips you buy, the canned vegetables, etc. are all produced by non-Jews without a mashgiach temidi.

Indeed, nowhere in halakha is a mashgiach of any sort required for bread and many other non-meat items.

Buddha Bodai is a vegetarian restaurant run by Jainists. It needs no hashgacha to begin with. Any hashgacha it has is really halakhicly superfluous.

[Shmarya]

I'd also note that you attacked Rabbi Steinberg for certifying food he will not himself eat. I showed clearly that your complaint is based on your ignorance.

Now apologize and go away.

[Anonymous]

My criticism of Rabbi Steinberg is not just based on his roster of mechalel Shabbos restaurants owned by both Jews & gentiles. Rabbonim in the kashrus field have told me he is completely unreliable for someone trying to keep kosher without any extra chumros like cholov yisroel.

Steinberg misleads people by advertising the name of Yeshiva Torah Vodaath WITHOUT permission. Shmarya has not even attempted to blurt out some half-baked defense of that.

Haredi Jews will not boil filtered water that is void of copepods. They are not concerned about billions of microscopic organisms.

Haredi Jews do not wear surgical masks to avoid inhaling airborne insects.

Haredi Jews do not abstain from ANY let alone ALL root vegetables.

There are very few items that Haredi Jews will completely avoid unless checked like broccoli and berries. They may eat even those items if properly pureed. Do the math and it shows that Shmarya is making yet another bogus claim that Jains eat more vegetables.

A gentile has no neemanus for checking bugs. Shmarya keeps insisting that they do but he cannot bring a source in halacha because none exists. The mechutzef then attacks me as ignorant.

Shmarya has never answered when asked in the past which yeshivos he attended. Were they yeshivos where the bochurim are even capable of making a leining in Mishna Brura?

[Shmarya]

I will do this one more time. Try to process:

My criticism of Rabbi Steinberg is not just based on his roster of mechalel Shabbos restaurants owned by both Jews & gentiles.

The restaurants can only be "mechalel Shabbos" if Jews do the work and/or retain the profit. Non-Jews are not allowed to keep Shabbos, as you should know, and they cannot be "mechalel Shabbos."

You have in no way proved that Jews do this work or retain the profit from it (in a non-halakhicly approved manner.

Steinberg misleads people by advertising the name of Yeshiva Torah Vodaath WITHOUT permission.

Whay EXACTLY does he say? That he graduated from or received smicha from TVD? If he did either, he is completely within his rights.

If Rabbi Steinberg is truly violating halakha – which I doubt – the correct way for TVD to deal with it would be to revoke his smicha or to publish an announcement explaining Rabbi Steinberg's violations.

TVD has done neither.

Further, you are an anonymous commenter with a proven track record of misunderstanding halakha. You make misstatements and factual errors, along with serious errors of logic, at almost every turn.

You are far from a credible source.

The rest of what you write (which, again, is more extreme than most Jainists) only proves my original statement, that Jainists are more careful with regard to bugs than haredi, true.

It therefore supports my original contention, one that is backed by halakha, that there is no need to supervise Jainist food for bugs.

A gentile has no neemanus for checking bugs. Shmarya keeps insisting that they do but he cannot bring a source in halacha because none exists.

All of hashgacha is based on trusing the non-Jewish food provider.

Bugs are no different halakhicly than any other non-meat, non-wine, non-cheese halakha in this regard.

When a non-Jew has a personal reason to avoid a particular food, procedure or ingredient, we can halakhicly rely on that. Indeed, Yorah Dayah and poskim mention this regularly.

Shmarya has never answered when asked in the past which yeshivos he attended. Were they yeshivos where the bochurim are even capable of making a leining in Mishna Brura?

I learned in Chabad and Litvish Ba'al teshuva yeshivot and in non-BT yeshivot. People I learned with are now rabbis of shuls, rabbis of college campuses, heads of noted outreach organizations, etc.

I also learned privately for years with hevrutas.

I would, however, point out that all of your supposedly good education has done nothing other than create a boorish fool who does not understand even the basics of hashgakha or halakha.

Anyone who wants to can see this for themselves by reading you foolish, bigoted and often contradictory comments and the responses posted by myself and others to your blabbering.

[Isa]

I buy large bags of Iceburg Garden salad from HEB[has Iceburg, carrots and red cabbage] (BIG chain here in Texas)Its says "All fresh Express salads are thoughly washed,rinsed and gently dried..."] What does that mean? They wash all the buggies away- Not ONCE have I ever seen a bug on my healthy lettuce. Why do I trust them ? Cause if people found bugs on their lettuce HEB loses $$$$$$

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"A gentile has no neemanus for checking bugs. Shmarya keeps insisting that they do but he cannot bring a source in halacha because none exists."

Really? Tell me: is a gentile a believable source for checking the knife used for schita?

[Anonymous]

Isa should get his eyes checked. The Vaad of the 5 Towns did extensive checking of all major bagged lettuce brands and publicly announced this finding:

Fresh Express had the biggest ratio of bugs per bag.

Don Yoel Levy & the OK are bums taking money for bags of bugs with kashrus stamps, but that's another story.

[Anonymous]

Wow is Shmarya ever stubborn. He keeps ignoring points central to his being refuted. It's no wonder, is it?

It's not only a question of who is profiting. A restaurant open on Shabbos in the NYC area is a huge red flag. In Steinberg's case it also means that he doesn't do his due dilligence to show up on a regular basis to make sure nothing is amiss.

I am not sure if YTV has taken any steps to get Steinberg to stop advertising their name. Other yeshivas have made moves against similar characters. Mir yeshiva terminated Rabbi Dovid Katz, the self proclaimed "Mirrer mashgiach" who was in their employ and asked him not to come around anymore. Lakewood yeshiva asked Rabbi Mehlman from the West Side to stop advertising he is one of their alumni.

If Yoreh Deah and poskim say a goy has neemanus for checking bugs than let Shmarya provide the mareh makomos. He consistantly declines to do so because no such source exists.

SHmarya systematically smears anyone who disagrees with him. If you are supposedly a bigot it's because you disagree with his perverse support of Blacks vs Jews. If you are supposedly not learned it is because you point out the flaws in his logic which he cannot even back up with a source. If you are supposedly dishonest it's because you have caught Shmarya on his lies and maipulations.

SHmarya has still not named his "non-BT yeshivot" where the level of learning can be very low. Some of these yeshivas, at beis medrash level, feature shiurim that range from 6th grade to 12th grade level.

There are plenty of pulpit rabbis out there as well as rabbis at campuses and kiruv orgs that don't know very much in learning.

Shmarya thinks we are supposed to be impressed with his chavrusa line up.

Maybe SHmarya can impress his formerly orthodox axe-wielding friends and the otherwise secular readers but he sure is the one who is looking foolish to the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Wow is Shmarya ever stubborn. He keeps ignoring points central to his being refuted. It's no wonder, is it?

It's not only a question of who is profiting. A restaurant open on Shabbos in the NYC area is a huge red flag. In Steinberg's case it also means that he doesn't do his due dilligence to show up on a regular basis to make sure nothing is amiss.

I am not sure if YTV has taken any steps to get Steinberg to stop advertising their name. Other yeshivas have made moves against similar characters. Mir yeshiva terminated Rabbi Dovid Katz, the self proclaimed "Mirrer mashgiach" who was in their employ and asked him not to come around anymore. Lakewood yeshiva asked Rabbi Mehlman from the West Side to stop advertising he is one of their alumni.

If Yoreh Deah and poskim say a goy has neemanus for checking bugs than let Shmarya provide the mareh makomos. He consistantly declines to do so because no such source exists.

SHmarya systematically smears anyone who disagrees with him. If you are supposedly a bigot it's because you disagree with his perverse support of Blacks vs Jews. If you are supposedly not learned it is because you point out the flaws in his logic which he cannot even back up with a source. If you are supposedly dishonest it's because you have caught Shmarya on his lies and maipulations.

SHmarya has still not named his "non-BT yeshivot" where the level of learning can be very low. Some of these yeshivas, at beis medrash level, feature shiurim that range from 6th grade to 12th grade level.

There are plenty of pulpit rabbis out there as well as rabbis at campuses and kiruv orgs that don't know very much in learning.

Shmarya thinks we are supposed to be impressed with his chavrusa line up.

Maybe SHmarya can impress his formerly orthodox axe-wielding friends and the otherwise secular readers but he sure is the one who is looking foolish to the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Wow is Shmarya ever stubborn. He keeps ignoring points central to his being refuted. It's no wonder, is it?

It's not only a question of who is profiting. A restaurant open on Shabbos in the NYC area is a huge red flag. In Steinberg's case it also means that he doesn't do his due dilligence to show up on a regular basis to make sure nothing is amiss.

I am not sure if YTV has taken any steps to get Steinberg to stop advertising their name. Other yeshivas have made moves against similar characters. Mir yeshiva terminated Rabbi Dovid Katz, the self proclaimed "Mirrer mashgiach" who was in their employ and asked him not to come around anymore. Lakewood yeshiva asked Rabbi Mehlman from the West Side to stop advertising he is one of their alumni.

If Yoreh Deah and poskim say a goy has neemanus for checking bugs than let Shmarya provide the mareh makomos. He consistantly declines to do so because no such source exists.

SHmarya systematically smears anyone who disagrees with him. If you are supposedly a bigot it's because you disagree with his perverse support of Blacks vs Jews. If you are supposedly not learned it is because you point out the flaws in his logic which he cannot even back up with a source. If you are supposedly dishonest it's because you have caught Shmarya on his lies and maipulations.

SHmarya has still not named his "non-BT yeshivot" where the level of learning can be very low. Some of these yeshivas, at beis medrash level, feature shiurim that range from 6th grade to 12th grade level.

There are plenty of pulpit rabbis out there as well as rabbis at campuses and kiruv orgs that don't know very much in learning.

Shmarya thinks we are supposed to be impressed with his chavrusa line up.

Maybe SHmarya can impress his formerly orthodox axe-wielding friends and the otherwise secular readers but he sure is the one who is looking foolish to the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

For some reason the comments seem not to be posting before appearing in duplicate.

[Anonymous]

SHmarya keeps acting as if he has you in a corner by making statements that are just barely technically correct.

There are 2 Jainist sects so if the one that is not that fanatical about bugs is 51% of Jainist, that would make them the majority.

The point is that a major segement of Jains is acting the way I describe.

[Isa]

Regarding:
""""Isa should get his eyes checked. The Vaad of the 5 Towns did extensive checking of all major bagged lettuce brands and publicly announced this finding:
Fresh Express had the biggest ratio of bugs per bag.""""
By a Vaad that needs jobs for parasite yeshiva graduates that barely know which way to turn a screwdriver.
Moshe Rabbanu didn't use light boxes or magnifying glasses to check for buggies and I need not do so either!!

[Shmarya]

A restaurant open on
Shabbos in the NYC area is a huge red flag. In Steinberg's case it also
means that he doesn't do his due dilligence to show up on a regular
basis to make sure nothing is amiss.

1. A "major red flag" to you is still not a red flag for halakha. These types of arrangements are used the world over by Orthodox Jews – including haredim.

2. Just because it is Shabbos does not mean that someone – Rabbi Steinberg or someone he appoints – cannot walk into those restaurants and check them out. This is done all over the world, by Orthodox Jews, even by haredim.

3. The Jainists are more careful in dealing with bugs than haredim are. That was and remains my point. All you have done – despite your copious posting – is confirm that.

If Yoreh Deah and poskim say a goy has neemanus for checking bugs than let Shmarya provide the mareh makomos. He consistantly declines to do so because no such source exists.

Yorah Dayah needs to specifically say that a non-Jew does NOT have "neemus" with regard to bugs. Otherwise, a non-Jew DOES have it and is believable if he says he checked and there are none.

Since Yorah Dayah does NOT rule a non-Jew out for this, a non-Jew is believed.

This halakhic principle – believing a non-Jew – is the foundation for all modern kashrut where non-Jews are employed. It is also the foundation for allowing non-Jewish household help and kitchen help. It is also why the talmud is chock full of stories about traveling rabbis eating at inns belonging to non-Jews.

The problem, Anonymous, is not my learning. It is your lack of halakhic knowledge.

[Shmarya]

""""Isa should get his eyes checked. The Vaad of the 5 Towns did
extensive checking of all major bagged lettuce brands and publicly
announced this finding:
Fresh Express had the biggest ratio of bugs per bag.""""

Basic modern day kashrut 101:
More than three bugs in an entire BATCH (not 8 oz bag; BATCH) of lettuce and the entire BATCH is ruled 'infested.'

That is the policy of the major kashrut orgs.

Anonymous is, shall we say, confused. I believe what the Vaad of the 5 Towns did is buy many BAGS of lettuce, a dozen from one supplier, a dozen from another, etc., open them and check for bugs. I believe what you mean to say is they found more bugs (i.e., one or two in total) in one brand over another.

If this 'test' were repeated by gathering the bags from many different stores and from different wholesalers, and if the test were repeated several times by differing personnel unaware of the company of origin and distributor when checking, it might have some validity. As of now, it does not.

[Anonymous]

Rabbi Eisen of the 5 Towns Vaad is a top expert on infestation issues.

This is so Shmarya to make a whole dreidel over the what when where of bags when the bottom line is that the bags are full of bugs.

The shitos that paskuniyaks like Shmarya and Isa keep refering to have been overcome by events. All the leading poskim in the 1980s from yeshivish to chassidish to yekkish signed a proclamation that because of new information we have, we can longer rely on the Mishkenos Yaakov and others to only check samples.

By the way, isn't Isa an Arab / Islamic name?

[Anonymous]

The critics have a right to be angry at the people who forced change in the bug issue. R' Yaakov Kamenetzky lashed out at the 2 rabbis in Lakewood who researched infestation on California plantations with USDA agents. There was no chiyuv to LOOK for the problems but because it was done already, we have to live with the consequences, as R' Yaakov said.

[Anonymous]

A red flag in the NYC area does not mean that out of town areas with little choice cannot have a bedieved situation. It just means that 99 times out of 100 in the NYC area there is a larger problem. Such is the case with Steinberg whether Shmarya accepts it or not.

Shmarya is making a fool out of himself over the Jains. He criticizes Haredim for too many stringencies but is fawning over the Jains who go completely overboard. They still have no neemanus in halacha if they are serving vegetables to their restaurant customers. It's hilarious how Shmarya spins it back at me to cite a source in halacha by claiming there is no such halacha. Entire sugyas in Shas are built on this principle that the halacha derives from. Shmarya is pishing in the wind and trying to make people prove the Earth is round.

Shmarya is either a complete ignoramous or is purposely lying to turn people against Orthodoxy. The laws of kitchen / domestic help and stays at inns and hospitals etc are complex. There are various factors that can come into play like "yotzei venichnas" etc. A gentile does not have neemanus as Shmarya stubbornly insists. That is why there are specific halachos such basar shenisalaym and instances where unattended vessels are considered to have become treif.

So what is it? Is Shmarya a prodigy who learned in Ponivizh or Brisk that is trying to deceive or did he learn in some quote unquote non-BT yeshiva geared to bochurim with limited capacity that is at the same level of learning as the 8th grade shiur in Chaim Berlin or the 6th grade shiur in Stolin?

[Isa]

Regarding:
""""By the way, isn't Isa an Arab / Islamic name?""""
Dear Mr Anonymous,
Right you are, as well as my REAL name, although there are rabbis with my real name.
Back in 1985, I stayed with a family of Rabbi [my real last name] he published many prayer books while in Iraq and later in Israel and my name whilst Arabic is ALSO Hebrew directly and means something. My name can be pronounced the same whether Arabic OR Hebrew.
BTW the Sephardim call Askenazim "children of converts" ha ha

[Anonymous]

"Sephardim call Askenazim "children of converts" ha ha"

You sound like one of those pathetic Sefardim with a superiority complex. Making fun of converts is a huge sin to boot.

[Shmarya]

1. Bugs. Exactly as I described above. You don't know this? I'm not surprised.

2. Jains. Again, as I made clear from the beginning, Jain's extremism with regard to taking life or eating a formerly sentient creature means that we can trust them with regard to checking for bugs and other related things.

Jains are more extreme than haredim but they do not force this extremism on others. They do not expect rank and file Jains to be as extreme as Jainist monks and they are rather kind, tolerant people. That was my second point regarding Jains.

Nothing you write refutes or changes either point.

3. So what is it? Is Shmarya a prodigy who learned in Ponivizh or Brisk that is trying to deceive or did he learn in some quote unquote non-BT yeshiva geared to bochurim with limited capacity that is at the same level of learning as the 8th grade shiur in Chaim Berlin or the 6th grade shiur in Stolin?

I don't know where you 'learned,' Anonymous but, from the emails and phone conversations I've had with people you would probably respect as bakki'im and rabbis, you need to go back to school – and you need to learn some manners.

People find you rather dense, friend, and that was no surprise to me. They also find you condescending, rude, ill-informed and juvenile. Also no surprise to me.

You have consistently misunderstood and misstated both the particular halakhot and how halakha in general operates.

4. You sound like one of those pathetic Sefardim with a superiority complex. Making fun of converts is a huge sin to boot.

And you, Anonymous, sound like a petulant, racist, spoiled child of privilege – and an ignorant one, to boot.

[Isa]

Dear Mr. Anonymous:
Thank you for your nice comment.
One time in Israel, Sephardim were treated like coolies whose babies could be stolen, and Sephardim were expected to say (Southern agriculturer worker accent) yessir masser yesir boss-well no more!
More seriously , I had a friend who married a woman that was suspected to be a kidnapped Yeminite baby. Her adoptive parents could not have children of their own (reason unknown) But they, the parents went through the 'camps'. The early Zionists may have decided to fix them up with a baby 'no matter what'. The parents were neither Orthodox (dati) nor were they secular but were in a gray area.

[Shmarya]

They still have no neemanus in halacha if they
are serving vegetables to their restaurant customers. It's hilarious
how Shmarya spins it back at me to cite a source in halacha by claiming
there is no such halacha. Entire sugyas in Shas are built on this
principle that the halacha derives from. Shmarya is pishing in the wind
and trying to make people prove the Earth is round.

Shmarya is either a complete ignoramous or is purposely lying to turn
people against Orthodoxy. The laws of kitchen / domestic help and stays
at inns and hospitals etc are complex. There are various factors that
can come into play like "yotzei venichnas" etc. A gentile does not have
neemanus as Shmarya stubbornly insists. That is why there are specific
halachos such basar shenisalaym and instances where unattended vessels
are considered to have become treif.

1. "yotzei venichnas" means the mashgiach can walk in whenever he likes – not that he is there and walking in every few minutes.

This means the possibility that a rabbi/mashgiach *may* walk in at some point during the day is enough.

Further, when a non-Jew has a specific reason of their own to be careful, that also counts. You don't know know this? No surprise. There seams to be little in actual halahic application you do know.

2. Unattended "vessels" can become treife, but only in very specific circumstances that do not exist in a vegetarian non-dairy restaurant.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"By the way, isn't Isa an Arab / Islamic name?"

You just stepped over the line.

[Anonymous]

Here goes Shmarya again. It's amazing that no matter how many times you refute him with incontrovertable facts, he comes back at you like a stubborn fly. There is a klal gadol that a goy has no neemanus in kashrus. You don't have to have a Rishon specifically spell out that checking for bugs is included. This is obvious to anyone but a complete moron or a heretic playing dumb.

It doesn't matter if a Jain cannot eat bugs. This halacha does not allow us to rely on him to check it for us. Shmarya is also incorrect in that rank and file Jains in one major sect ARE very strict. Obviously their teachers instruct the population in their religious beliefs similar to Haredim (lehavdil). Since they are much more overboard in their level of cheshash for bugs, Shmarya is therefore a HYPOCRITE for bashing Haredim while giving them a free pass.

SHmarya keeps pretending that Steinberg's only issues are at the vegetarian restaurant and not at meat establishments.

Yotzei venichnas does not always help, especially when the mashgiach basically never shows up.

When a gentile has personal reasons, that can help to some ways. It does not fully count in all circumstances.

What's Shmarya's hesitation to name his alma mater? He shares every other bit of his negelvasser like the cherem that was placed on him.

Could it be that it's some sub-par yeshiva that he is ashamed to identify?

[Shmarya]

There is a klal gadol that a goy has no neemanus in kashrus.…It doesn't matter if a Jain cannot eat bugs. This halacha does not allow us to rely on him to check it for us.

This is absolutely false.

All modern-day industrial hashgacha is based on the ability to trist non-Jews.

Further, the Shulkhan Arukh itself is full of examples of non-Jews being trusted in matters of kashrut.

for example, a kefailah, a professional cook, is trusted to taste food and determine whether there is a forbidden taste or not.

Another example brought down in poskim is the question of whether the non-Jewish maid washed the meat or or not. The din? You can trust her. Why? Because the normal derech of non-Jews is to wash meat and to be clean.

As long as there is some consequence to the non-Jew lying, or the non-Jew would normally do the act required, the non-Jew is trusted. The chef has his reputation to protect, the maid usually washes meat.

In our case, the non-Jews have both their reputations to worry about and they normally are as or more careful in checking for bugs as Jews are. Added to that is the fact that their normal way of acting is based on their religious outlook, which itself carries penalties for violation, and the fact that many, if not most, of their customers are religious Jainists and their business would be impacted negatively by finding bugs.

You can see a similar application of this concept with Rav Moshe Feinstein's understanding of what he called "halav companies."

Rav Moshe permitted non-halav yisrael milk because farmers have no incentive to lie and, at the same time, have a considerable fear of significant financial harm if they would lie and get caught.

You can see this also with Moshe HaDarshan's pesak allowing non-Jewish cheese. While it is largely based on the idea that non-Jews generally use non-animal rennet for cheese-making and therefore non-Jewish cheese is muttar because of rov, etc., he also is relying on the fact that people – non-Jews included – do not generally lie.

And you can see this principle applied in many places in modern industrial kashrut.

Since they are much more overboard in their level of cheshash for bugs, Shmarya is therefore a HYPOCRITE for bashing Haredim while giving them a free pass.

No. Shmarya pointed out several times (and Anonymous failed to process) that:

1. Jainist do not inflict their strictures on others, on other Jainists on Buddhists, etc., and their monks do not inflict their strictures on the rank-and-file Jainists. None of this is true for haredim and especially haredi rabbis.

Yotzei venichnas does not always help, especially when the mashgiach basically never shows up.

And, al pi din, he never has to. As long as nothing has been found to be amiss, there is no requirement to show up on any particular schedule.

Kashrut agencies have created gradations that are generally followed within each organization. For example, some plants are inspected once or twice a year, some quarterly, some monthly, some weekly, some every time a kosher run is made, some 24/6.

Not every plant requires more than a cursory inspection once a year.

In the case Buddha Bodai, because the restaurant makes pretty much everything it sells from scratch, all the rav hamachshir really needs to do is check the source(s) of the ingredients (which oil, which tofu, which flour, etc.). Once that is in place,, nothing other than the possibility of the rabbi's visit is necessary.

What's Shmarya's hesitation to name his alma mater?

The issue is not which school I went to. The issue is simply whether the halakha is as I represent it.

You have done nothing to refute anything I've written.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya cannot use specific instances in halacha where we afford a measure of reliability to a goy to create a universal rule that is applied everywhere.

His "proof" from contemporary industrial hashgocho settings is a false premise. There are factors such as cameras that obviate the need to trust anyone because the cameras and other factors take the place of a witness.

Cholov Yisroel and restaurants are apples and oranges. What Rav Feinstein actually said is companies fear financial and other penalties stemming from government action which is much more potent than trying to get redress in the courts between private parties. It's also not so clear that there is no incentive for dairy farmers to lie. Most poskim disagree with R' Moshe in this area and it has been proven that farmers substitute milk from impure animals. R' Moshe's psak does not apply outside the US & Canada where the authorities are more lax in prosecuting violators.

If trusting a goy was so simple, then why does Le Marais constantly get into imbroglios with mashgichim catching them breaking the rules, no matter who the hashgocho is?

Shmarya will also be in a bind over the Chinese. They have a propensity to lie and cheat which affects kashrus reliability, but viewing them as such would violate his ultra-Liberal religion.

There are so many examples that defeat what SHmarya is trying to prove. Supermarkets for instance sell cut up fruit and you would assume that they would use a clean knife. Yet, there have been instances where the fruit tastes like meat from a contaminated knife. Even non-Jews are turned off by this, yet it happens.

SHmarya is misrepresenting the Jain religion. The rank and file of one of the two sects is required to follow the over the top rules on bugs. Thi information is readily available on the internet.

I get a kick out of Shmarya's new fangled definition of yotzei venichnas. Maybe I have the wrong blog but I seem to remember Shmarya poking fun at Rabbi Yossi Engel for only showing up once in two years.

The OU and especially the Star K are coming under heavy criticism lately after it has been shown that sporadic visits to overseas plants leads to problems.

It is ludicrous to say that checking invoices at Budda Bodai is sufficient. Shmarya of course knows that if they are short an ingredient, they can go down to the corner store in Chinatown.

Forget about the "issue". Is Shmarya scared to name which "non-BT" yeshiva he attended for some reason? It would seem the level of learning there is as mediocre as the cases he makes.

[Anonymous]

Issa,

I am aware of the injustices that Sefradim suffered at the hands of the young Medina Zionist Ashkenazim. There is still much prejudice in the Labor & Likud parties.

There were many kidnappings of Yemenite children. At least in this regard, the Teimanim were equal opportunity. They mercilessly beat many Ashkenzi orphans in their care for the sin of wanting to remain religious. The so called "yaldei Teheran" who were actually from Europe were covered with bruises and welts from fists, belts and metal rods. A few of them managed to escape and made their way to Ponivizh yeshiva.

The early Neturei Karta, before going off the deep end and forming pacts with bloodthirsty Arabs, fought very hard to expose the Zionists and save these children.

[Anonymous]

Typo - should have read: At least in this regard, the Tzionim were equal opportunity.

[Shmarya]

1. His "proof" from contemporary industrial hashgocho settings is a false premise. There are factors such as cameras that obviate the need to trust anyone because the cameras and other factors take the place of a witness.

That is a relatively recent innovation that is still used only narrowly.

The vast majority of industrial hashgacha does not rely on cameras, etc. , now and it never has.

2. What Rav Feinstein actually said is companies fear financial and other penalties stemming from government action which is much more potent than trying to get redress in the courts between private parties.

No. What he says is that the penalties for cheating are enough and all halakha requires is that there be the fear that we *might* see non-kosher milk being added. Because government testing existes, that covers it.

Milk is a gezera. It is *more* strict than regular kosher issues. Yet it is met, in Rav Moshe's view – a view accepted by literally hundreds of poskim, although there are many haredi poskim who object.

The point is, without the gezera, the milk would be kosher without government or hashgacha.

It's also not so clear that there is no incentive for dairy farmers to lie. Most poskim disagree with R' Moshe in this area and it has been proven that farmers substitute milk from impure animals.

First of all, it has never been "proven" that farmers in America and Canada or in any other western countries do this. There is no pattern of such substitution and deceit.

R' Moshe's psak does not apply outside the US & Canada where the authorities are more lax in prosecuting violators.

It applies in most western countries, including England, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

3. If trusting a goy was so simple, then why does Le Marais constantly get into imbroglios with mashgichim catching them breaking the rules, no matter who the hashgocho is?

Meat restaurant. Two very sharp personalities in conflict. An acception, not a rule.

4. Shmarya will also be in a bind over the Chinese. They have a propensity to lie and cheat which affects kashrus reliability, but viewing them as such would violate his ultra-Liberal religion.

Mainland China has a problem with industrial fraud. That problem does not extend to Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and other countries and protectorates with ethnic Chinese populations.

The problem in mainland China is not genetically based.

I'd also note that China just executed the head of its drug safety agency because of the fraud he allowed.

I'd also point out that China produces a huge amount of goods and foods for export, of which only a tiny minority have been found to be tainted.

5. There are so many examples that defeat what SHmarya is trying to prove. Supermarkets for instance sell cut up fruit and you would assume that they would use a clean knife. Yet, there have been instances where the fruit tastes like meat from a contaminated knife. Even non-Jews are turned off by this, yet it happens.

We do not paskin based on the rare occurrence.

But you raise an interesting case.

The Rema in Yorah Dayah, Isser v'Heter writes about buying and eating shredded cabbage cut by non-Jews. He says, What if the knife they used was used to cut pork right before the cabbage was cut? How is it that we, Rema included, eat this cabbage?

The Rema answers by pointing out that whatever non-kosher taste or substance on that knife is battel after the first few cuts, and the product of those first few cuts is mixed with the rest of the cabbage and is also battel.

6. I get a kick out of Shmarya's new fangled definition of yotzei venichnas. Maybe I have the wrong blog but I seem to remember Shmarya poking fun at Rabbi Yossi Engel for only showing up once in two years.

I posted articles from the Australian Jewish News. I did not "poke fun" at Rabbi Engel.

That said, the problem is that Rabbi Engel allegedly did not do even basic diligence with those plants. He did not speak to new owners. He did not ask for lists of ingredients. He did not do anything other than collect his checks.

This does not make the food those plants produced non-kosher – it does, however, make that food unsupervised or supervised to a lesser degree than the Australian Kashrut Organization was led to believe.

Rabbi Steinberg does visit his restaurants and does check ingredients. He communicates with restaurant owners and managers.

You disagree with his standards for supervision, and that is your choice, just as others can and do make the choice to rely on Rabbi Steinberg for some or all of the restaurants he supervises.

The same perhaps could have been true for Rabbi Engel – except that Rabbi Engel was supposed to uphold a stricter standard. He allegedly did not do so while, at the same time, he allegedly engaged in crimes including defrauding the Australian government while he lied to board members and community leaders both about kashrut and about those crimes.

7. It is ludicrous to say that checking invoices at Budda Bodai is sufficient. Shmarya of course knows that if they are short an ingredient, they can go down to the corner store in Chinatown

This is and always was true anywhere, with any food producer.

Yet the talmud itself is full of stories of rabbis eating (non-meat products) at non-Jewish inns, and halakha has never demanded 24/7 supervision for any food producer other than meat, wine, and matzah.

Halakha presumes that people do not generally lie and that the penalties for lying – loss of reputation, of business, etc. – are enough reason to trust professional non-Jewish cooks and food producers.

That has been the halakha for as long as we have recorded halakhic history.

[Anonymous]

I am now told that Rabbi Steinberg's son has told people that his father only eats from his own restaurants because he doesn't trust anyone else. This contradicts what someone very close to the rabbi told me, that he knows for a fact that Steinberg does not eat from himself. If the son is correct, that would put Rabbi Steinberg in the same boat as characters such as Ralbag, who while they utilize weird shitos and kulos, are at least not so slimy and hypocritical to not eat from themselves.

Still, it is pretty pompous to say he doesn't trust others who have higher standards.

I have also spoken to a rabbi involved in industrial kashrus. He says the difference between a Steinberg restaurant - assuming he is doing some dilligence - and a plant with sporadic mashgiach visits is that a small operation like a restaurant is much more prone to have a problem with inventory that would lead them to get a refill around the corner. There are also other devices besides cameras at plants that take the place of a witness.

As far as the cholov, rabbonim in Gateshead, UK, relate they were told by farmers that the rabbis are "smart" for the cholov yisroel gezeira since many farmers including themselves have cheated. In this country and Canada, there have even been instances of horse meat being passed off as beef even though it much easier to distinguish than between milk from different species. Shmarya is throwing up his usual "not possible" tactic and placing the burden on critics to find anecdotal evidence.

The Chinese may have carried out an execution or two of sacrificial comrades for public consumption. According to a BusinessWeek investigation posted by UOJ, the federal Chinese govt has no control over what happens at the local level. Wall St analysts have told the NY Times that what has been revealed in China is only the tip of the iceberg.

A contaminated knife in a supermarket is not a "rare" occurence. My apologies if Shmarya craves his cut up watermelon (a favorite in the soul food line up). Most poskim that I know of have forbidden this unless under hashgocho. The only posek I know who said that *modern* supermarkets ONLY may be trusted, has recently said he was re-evaluating his position after instances where cut up fruit in the NYC metro area tasted like spicy Italian salami. Since that is a davar charif, that would also make whatever raaya Shmarya is trying to bring from the Rema go "poof".

Shmarya is right that the major hashgochos are relying on sporadic plant visits but many people find that unacceptable and have been lobbying for change. The major supervision services, except for perhaps the current Chof-K administration, are prone to corruption.

The Shulchan Aruch DOES go with the premise of the Talmud that we cannot trust a gentile for kashrus. There are exceptions which Shmarya tries to morph into the rule. His discussion of a chef tasting a dish was very on the surface and did not delve into the commentaries of the Schach & Taz that put the topic in the right perspective.

You can bet your house that Shmarya will never concede - probably anything - but especially that he is incorrect in a halachic topic that concerns non-Jews.

[Shmarya]

A contaminated knife in a supermarket is not a "rare" occurence. My apologies if Shmarya craves his cut up watermelon (a favorite in the soul food line up). Most poskim that I know of have forbidden this unless under hashgocho. The only posek I know who said that *modern* supermarkets ONLY may be trusted, has recently said he was re-evaluating his position after instances where cut up fruit in the NYC metro area tasted like spicy Italian salami. Since that is a davar charif, that would also make whatever raaya Shmarya is trying to bring from the Rema go "poof".

You are again wrong throughout most of your post.

I will not waste any more time trying to explain the basics of kahrut to you. Suffice with this:

1. If you can taste the non-kosher food, and by taste I mean eat your piece of fruit and say, "My this watermelon tastes like salami!", the watermelon would be forbidden.

That is a very rare occurrence – if it has ever truly happened. Jewish law does NOT rule based on rare occurrences.

2. Italian sausage is not a davar charif according to rov rishonim or rov poskim. Further, even for a rav who holds it to be a davar charif, there are many lenient opinions of real, honest to goodness poskim to rely on. Because the amount of taste and mamashot is extremely minimal, it would not be problem.

But, again, we do not paskin like the rare occurrence. Cutting Italian sausage with a knife and then usng that same knife unwashed to cut up fruit is not a normal or frequent occurrence. Therefore, it has no halakhic significance.

Shmarya is right that the major hashgochos are relying on sporadic plant visits but many people find that unacceptable and have been lobbying for change.

People can "lobby" for whatever they want. If you want to be more religious than the shulkhan arukh, by all means, do so. It is not the correct thing to do. It is not a thing one should have or force others to do. And it is not a thing that one should criticize others for not doing.

As you know, a law unapposed in the shulkhan arukh is a law you must follow. You cannot be more strict than that law.

If 3 pieces of meat are in your house, 2 kosher, 1 non-kosher, and you do not know which is which, the unopposed law is that all pieces are deemed kosher based on the principle of rov (following the majority.

If you refuse to eat that meat because you want to avoid the possibility of eating treife, you are labeled a rasha, an evil person.

Your rabbi knows this ands accepts it. But the folkways of the haredi street, so interestingly displayed by you, forget or ignore it with regularity.

My apologies if Shmarya craves his cut up watermelon (a favorite in the soul food line up).

Bye.