Sunday School Increases Intermarriage, Study Claims

The Jerusalem Post (ineptly) reports:

Rather than bolstering the likelihood of students marrying within their race, attending once-a-week Sunday school programs actually slightly increases the chance of intermarriage, according to a newly published study.

The research, conducted by Steven M. Cohen, research professor at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, finds that the likelihood of intermarriage increases by up to 9 percentage points among students who attend once-a-week programs in comparison to those who don't receive any Jewish schooling. (The pool of students was controlled for factors such as family upbringing and other sources of Jewish education.)

The study also found that attending congregational school two or more times a week hardly decreases students' chances of intermarrying.…

Cohen thinks the outcome is due to the Reform Movement. He argues that most Sunday schools are Reform affiliated and Reform has a high number of intermarried members. He reasons that Sunday school gathers these children, the products of intermarriage, together and reinforces the validity of intermarriage.

Of course, that does not explain why attending regular after school Hebrew school classes does not reduce the intermarriage effect.

I think a far more plausible explanation is that Judaism really has very little to offer normal people in this day and age. Certainly, whatever Judaism brings to the table is not enough to stop a the average Jew from out-marrying.

But why would completely uneducated Jews out-marry less than those who have some Jewish education?

I think because they have only a very vague idea of what Judaism the religion is. If they are happy in their homes and family lives, they associate Judaism with that. Their affiliation is cultural, not religious. As such, they choose to marry people who share their cultural and social outlook.

In other words, an argument can – and should – be made that secularism is a better force for Jewish continuity than religion.

But what about Orthodoxy and those from other denominations who attend Jewish day schools and yeshivot? Don't they out-marry far less frequently than secular Jews?

Yes. But they act that way not because of the ennobling doctrines of Judaism – they act this way because of indoctrination methods that include a large dose of stigmatizing both those who out-marry and non-Jews in general.

In other words, it is Judaism at its worst and most cult-like that decreases out-marriage.

Why is this the case?

I would argue it is the case because much – if not all – of what passes for Judaism is not truly divine, that Judaism is a castle built on sand and cannot withstand the winds that blow on it. This is not much different from any other religion.

An argument could be made that if we focused on being a light onto the nations of the world, that would create a Judaism that would both draw in many new adherents and retain many more born Jews. But this will not happen because the Jews who do the best retention today are the most opposed to reaching out to non-Jews, non-Jews that serve a much more important purpose in their theology – an Other to demonize; an Other to be superior to.

And, perhaps in that vein, what in the world is the Jerusalem Post doing with a lede like this?

Rather than bolstering the likelihood of students marrying within their race, attending once-a-week Sunday school programs actually slightly increases the chance of intermarriage…

The Post's editors must have slept through this one and its reporter, Hillary Leila Kreiger has a lot of explaining to do.

Comments

[David]

In fairness, there's no reason that going to Sunday school in the Reform movement should have much of an impact on intermarriage, as the Reform movement doesn't seem to object in any serious way to intermarriage.

On the other hand, intermarriage is still pretty rare (pace Mr. Feldman) among those raised OJ...

[Avrohom]

Scotrty,

At least erev rav THANK YOU! for being honest. you want to erase yiddishkeyt. You won't succeed it's too late.

You secularists ideas were already tried all the tikkun olom garbga and "light to the nations" led to the 70% intermarriage in USA and worse in other areas.

There is nothing at all JEwish about being "humanist" devoid of G-d. You deny G-d and especially G-d of the Jewish people. You cannot have continuity of Judaism when you leave G-d and G-d of Israel devoid of Torah and Halacha and Jewish destiny to lead you to any Jewish path, except for becoming an animal lover, lauding the expulsion of 9,000 jews and defender of an SS officer!

[Peter]

Shmarya, look at it this way: despite a lot of dedicated folks I know who teach at Sunday schools, most Sunday school teachers aren't stellar. So, kids are in Sunday school (translation: not as important to their parents as regular school, or other things that have more time dedicated to them, like sports or music) and they're getting mostly uninspired teaching. And they're being told "this is Judaism," and their families aren't too involved.

Surprise, surprise. They don't think it's important, and, as Dennis Prager said, if you have no positive reason to be part of the Jewish people, then opposition to intermarriage is racist.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I think Peter has a good point. The majority of Jews I know that attended "Sunday School", or whatever it was called, have terrible stories to tell of crazy teachers and out of control classrooms. It's known that one of the reasons MO has veered to the right over the past few decades is because the lack of MO teachers lead to the hiring of more haredi people who were willing to work for the pittance paid.

A positive experience with Jewish education may be critical to the development of a positive attitude toward Judaism for Reform and Conservative children. The Orthodox kids expect some bizarre teachers in the mix, so they'll be fine.

[Alex]

"lead to the hiring of more haredi people who were willing to work for the pittance paid."

its just that the haredim had no other skills. Marketable skills are for apikorases.

[Marc]

I was raised reform, and I noticed an intermariage rate of about 40 to no more than 50%. Everyone I know who married Jews did so for the culture and commonality, not the religion. When I look at the assimilation in the Orthodox communities, I'd give them another generation or so before intermarriage becomes a problem. A lot of religious folk are starting to look at Jewishness as a culture, and not necessarily a religion, as the religion doesn't fill their spiritual needs. I know as I shmooze with a fair number of modern orthodox, and people that go to Chabad. Oh well when the Moshiach doesn't come in a 100 years, people will flee Judaism for more relevant movements. And yeah many Chabad rabbis look at the goyim as sub-human and are disgustingly tribalistic; this is a real turn off to those of us who were raised in the "real world."

[Yochanan Lavie]

I went to a Reform Sunday school and it was bullshit. The teachers were well-meaning but ignorant, and incapable of answering even simple questions. The students were undisciplined and apathetic. They only wanted to be there to get a Bar Mitzvah, so they could get presents. (They admitted it). If I thought that the only thing Judaism had to offer was a combination of PC and nostalgia, I'd flee, too. But I read on my own, and then went to an MO High School. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than Hebrew School.

Many critics of religion have a childish view of religion, because their only exposure was a bad Sunday school- whether Christian or Jewish. No wonder they flee. Unfortunately, fundies are bringing a different, but equally simplistic view into relgious education.

As for secularism, it is unsatisfying emotionally, and therefore doomed in the long run. If you want to live in a cold, cruel universe, gei gezunte heit. People need meaning in their lives, and secularism doesn't provide it (not for lack of trying).

The birthrate in post-Christian, ultra-secular Europe is plummeting. That is why they must import fanatical Muslims with no desire to assimilate into their countries. Someone has to pay the taxes to support the social welfare state benefit for the aging secularists. Just as surely as the fanatical early Christians replaced the world-weary pagans in Ancient Rome, the call to prayer will be heard from the bell tower of Notre Dame Cathedral in the near future. Therefore, even from an evolutionary p.o.v, secularism is a maladaptive strategy.

Now, let's look at how it played out in the Jewish realm. Labor Zionism, Bundism, Jewish Communism, and Yiddishism are all moribund. The late Rabbi Sherwin Wine's Secular Humanist Judaism is a non-starter. What is succeeding is Chareidism in the Ortho world, and Jewish Renewal in the non-Ortho world. Sprituality is in.

I am hoping there is a third way, between dry-as-dust materialist-secularism and mumbo-jumbo. Or else, why be Jewish? To eat latkes on Hannukah? Who gives a fuck? Jewish food is okay, but it's not as good as French, Chinese, or Italian. To listen to klezmer? It's okay, but classic rock is better. Because of Mel Brooks, Woody Allen, and Seinfeld? All very funny, but not worth a pogrom.

Either we find a way to make this religion work, or call it a day. I would rather find another religion, than believe in nothing. (Sorry Jim, Christianity and Islam are too derivative for me).

[Alex]

"As for secularism, it is unsatisfying emotionally, and therefore doomed in the long run. If you want to live in a cold, cruel universe, gei gezunte heit. People need meaning in their lives, and secularism doesn't provide it (not for lack of trying)"

1) Secular studies are emotionally satisfying for me. Sometimes people (like Nachman for example) mistake VOCATIONAL studies, which is secular, for real secular studies.

Secular studies are not merely vocational studies (although they overlap) secular studies are different lenses for understanding the way the world works, be it through the lense of one of the physical sciences, mathematics, or of one of the subjects in the humanities. And having a broad background in a couple of these fields provides understanding and emotional fufillment (to an extent, having the dinero is the other side of the equation for having emotional fufillment lol)

2) A secular lifestyle provides someone with the clarity to have a realistic approach to what his situation in life is so that he can come up with a realistic plan for fixing his life as opposed to present day orthodox judaism which has people locked in constant prayer and constant talmud study thinking that God would just swoop down and give them all jobs but alas, even religious jews are not above the laws of nature.

Realistic perception is better than false hope.

[Shmarya]

Now, let's look at how it played out in the Jewish realm. Labor
Zionism, Bundism, Jewish Communism, and Yiddishism are all moribund.
The late Rabbi Sherwin Wine's Secular Humanist Judaism is a
non-starter. What is succeeding is Chareidism in the Ortho world, and
Jewish Renewal in the non-Ortho world. Sprituality is in.

This is not really true. Jews when given choices do not choose Haredism or Jewish Renewal – they choose secularism. They may still belong to non-OJ synagogue (or they may not), but their practice is secular.

Haredim appear to "work" because they have many children (which we all support through various welfare schemes).

But those children, if given a free choice (and by that I mean no penalties inflicted on siblings and parents, etc.) often choose secularism, as well.

In other words, as I wrote above, it is the cult-like, thuggish practices that make haredim appear to be successful. True free choice will remove much of that "success."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex: I have a PhD in English Literature from a major university, so I know how satisfying non-vocational secular studies can be. And only very childish fundamentalists think that constant prayer and talmudic study will solve everything. I don't. I believe that God helps those who help themselves. But I still need to know that there is some kind of Diety who cares, or else life is just a travesty.

Furthermore, I am not so sure how "secular" non-theological studies are. Literature, art, and philosophy have always been inspired by religion- at least until the 18th Century Enlightenment, and even in some cases after that. High art and philosophy are now esoteric studies for experts, now that they are post-modern and absurdist. Science fills the mind with awe and wonder. God is not a part of science, since it is not verifiable or falsifiable. But a religious temperment can be inspired by the idea of a vast universe billions of years old.

And finally, why be Jewish? Why fight the Palestineans in an endless war over a semi-arid land? Why invite persecution and ridicule? Why bother? Secularism cannot answer these questions, which is why secular Judaisms have a very short shelf life.

If secularism works for You and Shmarya, may the Cold Meaningless Universe bless you both. Believe and let live, or don't believe and let live- that's my motto. But I need the "false hope" or I'll either put a bullet in my brain and end this unpleasant exisitence- or commit a slower suicide by wallowing in hedonism. Why bother trying to make the world a better place, if the sun will just go supernova in a few million years anyway. And most of all, why complicate your life by being Jewish?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya: I am no fan of chareidism or Jewish Renewal. Secular Jews become non-Jews in a few generations. Secular Jewish ideologies get fresh blood from religion drop outs, not their own.

[Shmarya]

That's because there is nothing trulu compelling about Judaism in the modern world.

Its historical basis, if taken literally, is false.

Its legal "innovations" are mostly borrowed from surrounding cultures.

Its moral teachings seem much less special when compared to what surrounding cultures actually taught – as opposed to the anti-polytheist PR found in Jewish sources.

And I could go on.

My point is, if numbers are the only thing that matters or the primary thing – then open a Jewish cult. Pattern it after Williamsburg or Kiryas Joel.

Change history, ignore science, demonize Others.

Do that or admit that Judaism is very flawed and that secular choices are not worse than "spiritual" choices.

[Alex]

And finally, why be Jewish? our genetics is sufficient.

[avrohom]

scotty,

get off your cultish antisemitic rampage: for observant jews it works because they educate their children to love judaism, to beleive in Hashem, in His Torah, in Elokey Yisrael, and when given the choice, they choose life and blessing which is Torah and Hashem.

Get it: choose the new agre religion of antisemitic secularism and fight all haredim and rabbis and rebbes but be honest that this is NOT judaism; IT FIGHTS JUDAISM and know ahead of the game that you will not succeed. "jaasher yeaunu oyssoy keyn yirbeh vechen yifrotz!"

[Yochanan Lavie]

Basically, this blog is not intended to small "r" reform Judaism, as it is to abolish it? If Judaism and Jewish peoplehood have nothing to offer, why should anyone care what Rubashkin does or doesn't do? Let the Palestineans produce another predictable Jihadi state, let the Israelis move back to Yemen or Poland (or Ethiopia) and convert to Christianity or Islam. Let Yiddish and Hebrew become extinct languages. The last one please turn out the lights.

[Yochanan Lavie]

"And finally, why be Jewish? our genetics is sufficient."

So what, America is about self re-invention. My grandfather rode horses. Should I?

[Shmarya]

Basically, this blog is not intended to small "r" reform Judaism, as it is to abolish it? If Judaism and Jewish peoplehood have nothing to offer, why should anyone care what Rubashkin does or doesn't do?

My point is that we must recognize what "works" and why it "works."

[rabbidw]

I am sorry that you find no meaning in Judaism. I am not a fundamentalist but I believe that Judaism gives meaning to my life. There are many great minds that have found truth and meaning in Judaism. The problem is that Judaism is taught to children, and many people keep the same view of Judaism that they had when they were 13 and stopped further studies. The growth in fundamentalism in Judaism is caused by teachers who are extremely unsophisticated and continue to believe, and teach, the childishness that they should have long since outgrown. I will end bu quoting that great Jewish fundamentalist William Shakespeare. "There is more in heaven and earth than can be accounted for by your philosophies."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya, my friend, you wrote:

"My point is that we must recognize what "works" and why it "works."

But earlier you wrote:

"there is nothing trulu compelling about Judaism in the modern world.Its historical basis, if taken literally, is false.
Its legal "innovations" are mostly borrowed from surrounding cultures. Its moral teachings seem much less special when compared to what surrounding cultures actually taught – as opposed to the anti-polytheist PR found in Jewish sources."

Sounds to me like nothing works.

[Shmarya]

Look at it another way.

If Judaism was concerned with improving the world – and by this I mean extensive famine relief in Africa and mentoring programs in inner city schools, and the like – if it was focused on being a light onto the nations rather than on following every divergent opinion on how to correctly tie one's shoes, perhaps we would not be having this discussion because Judaism would be a vibrant entity.

Of course, we've already made this decision. Tying one's shoes correctly is of supreme importance.

[Shmarya]

Sounds to me like nothing works.

Except cultish behavior forced on children from birth or, perhaps, ohr lagoyyim.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I agree that Judaism today is too focused on halacha lema'aseh. But ritualism does build community, so some of it is important (if not taken to extremes). Many Reform and Renewal Jews believe (misinterpreting kabbalah) that the primary function of Judaism is Tikkun Olam. In principle, they're not wrong- even though I disagree with how they derive it. (I prefer deriving it from the Prophets than from the Zohar). I think it would be wonderful if more Jews did things such as famine relief and mentoring- many in fact do. Jews are disproportionately involved in things such as Darfur- and they do so because they think (correctly) it's a Jewish thing to do. If only more Orthodox were involved...

(Note: I personally believe in voluntary efforts rather than tax and spend welfare programs, but that's another discussion).

So, if you were given the power to reform Judaism- how would you do it? What would you keep and what would you discard? It's easy to be a farbissneh, so let's hear some positive suggestions.

[Shmarya]

Right. If Orthodoxy is not part of the game, then there is no reformation. It ois a non-starter.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Judaism is concerned with improving the world, but first improving ourselves and our communities. You're correct in your observations that there are many "broken" things about Judaism as practiced by various groups today. How can it be that halachic development - which should be responding constructively to the internal and external challenges faced by modern Jews - has slowed to a crawl for the past several hundred years? It's important to understand how things got where they are today:

- We're still living in the shadow of the impact of the expulsion from Spain - where Sephardic Jews lived for 1000 years.

- We're still living in the shadow of hundreds of years of being peasants caught in the middle of various civil wars in Eastern Europe.

- We're still in the shadow of the false messianism of Shabbetai Tzvi, which raised and then dashed the hopes of untold numbers of Jews that believed in a literal Moshiach rather than Rambam's view of it being a time of self-government (i.e. the modern state of Israel).

- Ashkenazi Jews have torn apart into three groups (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) which are artificial entities that each lack the balance of the other two groups in various aspects of law and philosophy. Each group continues to refine its approach to Judaism often based upon reaction to the other groups; Orthodoxy swings hard to the right to "balance" the leftward excesses of Reform and some Conservative groups. Everyone loses in this dysfunctional dynamic.

[Anon]

"Except cultish behavior forced on children from birth or, perhaps, ohr lagoyyim."

Ohr lagoyyim was a predominant motto of the conservative and reform movements and was a dismal failure. From the orthodox perspective "ohr lagoyim" is an effect not a cause - i.e. one should do the right thing because the torah obligates you to do so (not so that you should be an ohr lagoyim) and if you do so the result will be that you are ohr lagoyim. If your beliefs have shifted to conservative or reform I think the right thing for you to do would be to state that publicly.

[Shmarya]

If your beliefs have shifted to conservative or reform I think the right thing for you to do would be to state that publicly.

I think it would be the right thing for you to state publicly that you do not know how to read.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Neo: Great analysis. You hit the proverbial nail on the head. But where do we go from here? Do we give up, as some seem to be suggesting? Do we dismantle our unique religion/peoplehood combination? (Early Reform tried to turn Judaism into a Unitarian Protestant denomination, and later did a backflip. Secular Zionism and Bundism tried to turn us into a nation like any other- only to discover anomie and apathy in their descendents).

[Alex]

"How can it be that halachic development - which should be responding constructively to the internal and external challenges faced by modern Jews - has slowed to a crawl for the past several hundred years?"

It did not slow to a crawl. instead of responding to the needs of regular working people, halacha has been hijacked by people who don't work and thus can't have the needs of working people in mind during its formulation, and they turned halacha into a game of limbo, instead of how low can you go, its "how machmeir can you go."

[pushkina]

i usually don't teach kids, especially bnei mitzvah prep because i (as a teacher and a person) want to go deeper into the texts, why and what we are here for. so i teach adults, either through our melton program (one good thing sydney jewishly has going for it is our melton program [regular basic melton and graduate level melton which can lead to a university certificate in jewish studies], i think that it is the largest in the world].

i was once prevailed upon to teach bar mitzvah prep to a 13 year old boy whose jewish mother and non-jewish father were not members at the local reform shul and so, he did not fit the 'residency' requirements (at least 3 years attendance in sunday school). he was a student at one of the local CoE private schools, where anglicanism is taught as a daily course. this boy, who had had NO jewish training at all from his mother (mother family all were very jewishly identified; a grand uncle was a traditional rabbi,a maternal uncle was president of a very important shul in NYC and maternal aunt a 'Liberal' (in the british meaning)rabbi) had taught himself how to read the hebrew bible, jewish history and some basic texts and argue against the religion and history masters, as self defense. when i asked him why he had done this, he had no real answer except that he is jewish.

so this boy had demonstrated to me by his moxie, the courageous way he had educated himself to stand up to the masters at his school and even demanded of his mother (who obviously had issues with jewishness) that he be bar mitzvahed that he would be a good student. and he was. for more than a year, he and i worked on history, text, faith, on every aspect we could cover, 1-3 times a week. i arranged for someone else to teach him lashon, as my hebrew is tragic and he WANTED to learn everything he could about the language, not only his parsha, but dikduk, the reasons for the trope's turnings, everything imaginable.

what a joy he was to teach! and the best part was that he WANTED to be there. he would never have learned a fraction of what we covered together. the proof of that was that his younger sisters were enrolled later in the shul's hebrew school, became known as general mischief makers, did not pay attention, more importantly learned nothing. finally the parents called me in to help them but it was (in my opinion) too late and i dropped had picked up from their brother, by the time their parents called me in, there was nothing left to salvage.

but i don't think that day school is much better. my little girl had been in a non-jewish long daycare/pre-school where the emphasis was on learning to be a good person, to share, to respect each other and their belongings, to be kind. we never had discipline problems with her or any frends that came over. there was no talkng back. now she is in a jewish kindergarten and from day one, it has been a frightful experience. in the school there is bullying, general bad behavior, no respect for others or others' things, (especially books!). I've caught a boy going through her bookbag looking for her Friday tsedaka money, another boy bullying her to give him her money, her favorite teddy bear for naptime was stolen, and a beautiful, brand new, jewish story book that bubbe sent from the US came back home in tatters. the teacher told me that it was my own fault for sending the book to school. in this class of supposed 4-5 year olds, there are 21 boys, but only 5 girls. there is very little hebrew taught, only of the most basic conversational kind, no attempt to teach hebrew letter recognition (at least). there are no stories taught from the chumash, no parsha of the week, no ethics, no moral guidance. except for tsedaka: my daughter told me that we collect tsedaka only for israel, not for any other reason.no discussion of mitzvot. i am absolutely enraged but this is a fine example of day school.

i was told that there is no reason to teach hebrew at this age because we have so many students from israel who need to learn english. and anyway, the children are TOO YOUNG to learn complicated ideas. i seem to remember that the age a child begins their jewish education traditionally is 3. but modern jewish children are not as smart as their forbears.

from this i derive that the state of jewish education is in a crisis, just as the jewish people are.

[Yisroel]

I think it’s not right to force Shmarya, Neo-Conservaguyand and Alex to be religious if they don’t want to be.

[Anon]

--I think it would be the right thing for you to state publicly that you do not know how to read.--

ok. I don't know how to read. Now its your turn. Are you orthodox, conservative, reform, an athiest or none of the above.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Anon: Click on "What I Believe- My Credo" sidebar on right. I think that will answer your question.

[Anon]

--Anon: Click on "What I Believe- My Credo" sidebar on right. I think that will answer your question.--

Seen it before. Shmarya rejects the chareidi version of orthodoxy but doesn't give much more detail. Also, I suspect he's moved further to the left since then.

[J]

I suspect he's moved further to the left since then

What does 'left' mean to G-d? Oh, I'm forgetting that verse in Micah. To do mercy, love justice and walk to the right of G-d....

[ANONYMOUS]

You obsess about charedim almost daily and at the same time insist it has no validity. It apparently is powerful enough to constantly struggle against. The more you belittle charedim the larger it looms in your consciousness. If you couldn't engage in this sort of adolescent behavior would you Mr. Baal Hablog have a meaningful life?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"I think it’s not right to force Shmarya, Neo-Conservaguyand and Alex to be religious if they don’t want to be."

I'm a grown man who believes in complete self determination. Who do you believe could "force" me to attend minyan daily, lead services, help teach children, etc.? OK, my wife. Good point - never mind.

[Alex]

I wouldn't marry a girl who would harass me about religious stuff. lol, I heard stories of religious from birth people running away from religious women and leaving them for nonjewish women because the religious women drove them fucking crazy.

[Yisroel]

Alex,

Are you saying that you are not married?

[Arnold]

If we're really looking for answers then I will offer one that I posted on my blog (onlyajew.blogspot.com) about a month and a half ago. I do not know if this is the answer, but if one truly believes in the Divine and his Torah, then I suggest the following....

Some have posted that we need the Modern Orthodox to fill this void. I strongly disagree and mostly for the same reasons I rail against the Kollel wing-because they are as closed minded-yes closed minded-and arrogant about Torah U'madah as the Kollel is about their way. Don't get me wrong. I am not against the Torah U'madah derech per se' just as I am not against Kollel in all cases. But please don't fool yourself into thinking that the far left-yes not centrist-(I don't even know what that means) is any better than the far right. I will try and address that soon.

Here, however is my attempt at an answer.

I am adamant about not using the term orthodox because the moniker was laid on us by the reformers in Germany and it was not meant to be a compliment. I am in favor of the word Torah Jew. Someone who lives their life based on Torah. Period. Let the other guys keep the labels and do what they want with them. I think they're silly and mean nothing.

Here is what I propose. We should all try and live a genuine life. We don't need a new movement. We just need some common sense and people who are not concerned with their own Kavod and power. We need to get rid of any leaders who are slighted that they were not placed on the dais when someone else who is not as " important" as they are had been placed there. We need to hold our leadership accountable. We need to stop concerning ourselves with who gets what honor. It's so silly and the cause of so much strife and hatred.

We need to follow the example of a nineteen year old girl that I know. She davens every day-because she wants to, even though she may not be obligated to. She speaks respectfully to all people no matter their age. She leaves the room when she hears Loshon Horah. She reads the parsha every friday night and learns the haftorah-because she wants to learn about Hashem. She does not judge anyone nor advocate for any one thing or any one way of life. She just wants to be a Jew. She attends Shiurim because she just wants to be a Jew. She helps the terminally ill twice a week because she just wants to be a Jew. She didn't buy into the Israel thing or the fancy clothes thing. She just wants to be a Jew.

What is wrong with that? Why can't we start a movement to just be a Jew. A G-d fearing, do our service out of love, Jew? We don't need to re-invent the wheel. The answer is already out there. We just need to be Jews.

How do we convey that to the masses? Any way possible, but we have to offer something they can sink their teeth into and I think this girl and the way she lives her life is the answer. The MO have an agenda and it is to NOT be charedi. That alone is as dangerous as the charedi agendas. Think about that carefully and understand that I have sent FIVE children to Torah Umadah schools so I know about which I am writing. Anyone who denies this fact is being intellectually dishonest.

Fact is there is a way and it has nothing to do with labels. It has to do with being G-d fearing Jew and living a life as it is defined by Torah. Our words mean nothing. Our clothes mean nothing. Our hashkafah means nothing.

Our actions mean everything.

[Dave]

I have an easy answer to the problems of Judaism in Canada and the U.S.A. today- Rational Traditional Judaism-
major policies will be:
1) everyone welcome as long as they believe in the traditional Jewish concept of G-d
2) recognition that all mitzvot have value, but that some mitzvot are more essential than others, the ethical mitzot are of primordial importance and the Torah rules over de-rabbanan interpretations
3) Humrot, (whether of Rabbinic or Karaite inspiration) are totally out- we must have the courage to be moderate yet traditional
4) rooting out all anthropomorphic references to Hashem in the siddur
5) outreach to non-Jews in non-Christian and non-Muslim countries (Christianity is diametrically opposed (in a theological sense) to Judaism; classical Moderate Islamic theology is basically very similar to us- even Orthodox Jews can enter a mosque- the problem is political).
6) constant promotion of Judaism (see item 5) since we can assume that for some Judaism demands too much from them and so we can just figure that there is always going to be at least a 30 or 40 percent drop out rate, so we need to constantly promote Judaism
7) adoption of some Karaite practices and certainly the Karaite insistence of return to the miqra, but moderated With Talmudic study promoted as well but Not the belief that the Oral Law is divine
8) rabbis to teach parents and educators and in turn they to teach children- rabbis to only have a consultative role- return responsibility for Jewish education to the parents
9) Shabbat observance to be more pragmatic, and more directly Torah rooted- no more of this 39 classes of "avodah".
10) retention of the rabbinical Jewish calendar (ie. not switching to the Karaite calendar) and matrilineal inheritance.
11) More flexible welcoming conversion, yet not giving up basic Torah law and rational peshat based interpretations.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave: I like your program. Arnold: Very eloquent. You have a point, but there still needs to be some framework. Chabad shlichim insist that they are "just being Jews," and they are not being disingenuous. That's their interpretation.

As I argued with Jim regarding the rationale for saving gentile lives on Shabbat, ideology matters because ideas ultimately affect behavior. (Plus we are not automatons blindly following some rules- not that you are suggesting we are or should be).

[Alex]

Yisroel - im still young

hedonism rules :D

[Alex]

oh did I say that I heard stories?

I take it back. I heard HORROR stories.

[Alex]

Monday:
Yankie- I want you to wake up at five oclock every morning to go to an early minyan!!!!!

Yankie gets up early bacause Shindi is a fucking pain in the ass. He ends up being unable to stay awake at minyan or at work.

He comes home exhausted:

SHINDIE!!!!!!!! WHERE THE FUCK IS MY COFFEE?

Shindie said- i threw it out because it was within one hundred miles of something that is a meat product, and it may have been around milk.

Yankie says, "OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!!!!! COFFEE IS NEUTRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Shindie said, "Its a new chumra in sefer chumrot chapter 700 article 94 subsection G - now coffie has to be thrown out within a hundred miles of a meat product."

Yankie goes to bed in misery in their tenth floor apartment.

next day- Shindie says, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKIE I want you to get up for the super early minyan at four oclock in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Yankie jumps out the window and kills himself.

just kidding! lol

[Alex]

one quick think by yankie i mean as an affectionate form of the name Yankel, not yankie as in yankee

I suspect that Alex is not married- judging from his humor, I'd say he's about 11 years old...

[yona loriner]

u believe that??????

[yona loriner]

yea right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!