Rabbi Norman Lamm Answers Noah Feldman – With Lies

Rabbi Norman Lamm writes a response to Noah Feldman in today's Forward:

…You refer in anger to the Talmudic view on whether a Jewish doctor may violate the Sabbath laws in order to save the life of a non-Jew. You are critical of the Sages of the Talmud who permitted such violations of laws of the Sabbath because of concern for maintaining peaceful relations between the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. You suggest that, on the one hand, it is an “instance of laudable universalism,” but, on the other, it is “an example of outrageously particularist religious thinking.”

Surely you, as a distinguished academic lawyer, must have come across instances in which a precedent that was once valid has, in the course of time, proved morally objectionable, as a result of which it was amended, so that the law remains “on the books” as a juridical foundation, while it becomes effectively inoperative through legal analysis and moral argument. Why, then, can you not be as generous to Jewish law, and appreciate that certain biblical laws are unenforceable in practical terms, because all legal systems — including Jewish law — do not simply dump their axiomatic bases but develop them. Why not admire scholars of Jewish law who use various legal technicalities to preserve the text of the original law in its essence, and yet make sure that appropriate changes would be made in accordance with new moral sensitivities? Plato — as well as Maimonides — taught us that every law must leave some who are thereby disadvantaged, that it is in the nature of law to serve the community even when individuals are injured. We then must seek ways to ameliorate the situation as best we can. This is a legitimate way for the Talmudic and post-Talmudic rabbis to protect the sacred Shabbat laws, and by appropriate halachic legislation enable us to live without violating our moral conscience.

Let me clarify my stand, as an Orthodox rabbi, on the issue you raised: It is strictly forbidden by the Halacha to deny a non-Jew whatever is necessary to save his or her life. There must be no discrimination whatsoever. Every human being is created in the Image of God and has a right to life and health. “The Lord is good to all and His tender mercies are over all His works” (Psalm 145).

Because the issue is subtle and highly sensitive, do you not think that it would have been more responsible of you either not to mention an issue which for centuries has inflamed antisemitic vindictiveness and exacerbated irritation for those Jews ignorant of the method and subtleties of the law, especially since such subtleties are beyond the reader not trained in legal theory? But if you are compelled to write about it, would it have been a violation of some professional code to give precedence and preference to the universalist bias of the halachic tradition?

But you took the easy way out, and thereby succeeded in holding up the Torah, the Talmud, the rabbis and especially Modern Orthodox Judaism to public ridicule, making the whole Talmudic enterprise look bigoted and racist.…

Rabbi Yehiel Yakov Weinberg, the Sredei Aish, in 1965:

In my opinion, it is fitting to put an end to the hatred of the religions for each other. More than Christianity hates Judaism, Judaism hates Christianity. There is a dispute if stealing from Gentiles is forbidden from the Torah, everyone holds that deceiving a Gentile and canceling his debt is permitted, one is not to return a lost object to a Gentile, according to R. Tam intercourse with a Gentile does not render a woman forbidden to her husband, their issue is like the issue [of horses]... We must solemnly and formally declare that in our day this does not apply. Meiri wrote as such, but the teachers and ramim whisper in the ears of the students that all this was written because of the censor.

So, Rabbi Lamm gets a point for "solemnly and formally declar[ing] that in our day th[ese discriminatory laws do] not apply." Of course, he loses that point by pretending that the legal fiction he endorses is the only and correct way to see the halakha. The fact is, most of the haredi world does not understand it that way. They reflect ed's position more than Rabbi Lamm's. Rabbi Lamm knows this. But he has made his choice – clearly, it is more important to Rabbi Lamm to make Orthodoxy look good than it is to tell the truth and, if that deception further estranges Noah Feldman and others – so be it.

This is a shame. Rabbi Lamm made very good points regarding Feldman's bizarre expectation that Modern Orthodoxy would somehow approve of his marriage to a non-Jew. But he had to cross the line, he had to intentionally deceive.

Rabbi Lamm includes this letter he says he received from Daniel, a recent YU graduate:

Like most Yeshiva University graduates, I interact on a daily basis with gentiles for most of my day. My Orthodox Jewish identity has never become an issue or conflict. However, following last week’s New York Times article by Noah Feldman… I have frequently been getting questions like, ‘Is it true that according to your law you wouldn’t save my life on the Sabbath’ or, ‘Do you really believe that Jewish life is more important than gentile life?’ How does a young Modern Orthodox professional answer these questions in a respectful and diplomatic way so as not to demonize others and at the same time be true to his faith?

What that tells me is that Daniel also understands the law the way Feldman does – but he does not know haw to spin the law to placate his non-Jewish co-workers while at the same time remaining true to the law. This supports Noah Feldman's position.

More and more, I see secularism as the only solution to Judaism's problems. Our rabbis are deceitful. Many (not including Rabbi Lamm, thank God) are open thieves. While it is possible to separate God from Orthodox Judaism, it is impossible to separate rabbis from Orthodox Judaism (or any other Judaism, for that matter)– and that is our greatest problem.

Recent related posts: 1, 2, 3, & 4.

Comments

[Howie]

Interesting response, Shmarya. A few points that perhaps bear additional scrutiny - Rabbi Lamm:"Surely you, as a distinguished academic lawyer, must have come across instances in which a precedent that was once valid has, in the course of time, proved morally objectionable, as a result of which it was amended, so that the law remains “on the books” as a juridical foundation, while it becomes effectively inoperative through legal analysis and moral argument".

Oh, really? Not that this argument is "wrong" - but how can an Orthodox rabbi like Rabbi Lamm make it? Orthodoxy stands and falls, after all, with the claim that the Torah - including the Mishna/Gemara - is the Word of G-d and embodies His revealed will forever. How can it become "morally objectionable" over time??? This argument is only valid, it seems to me, outside of the parameters of Orthodoxy (not that that invalidates it, obviously).

Equally problematic is Rabbi Lamm's lauding of the practice of making "morally objectionable" laws "effectively inoperative". The Jewish legal system is not merely a syslem of do's and don'ts - it is also (perhaps primarily) a system of moral TEACHINGS - so that when it is kept "on the books", even if rendered "inoperative", it has the effect of perpetuating the given teaching in the minds of its' followers - hence the Hareidi attitudes towards Non-Hews.

Finally, Rabbi Lamm also attacks Feldman for "spilling the beans" to the "goyim" - and this is perhaps the most problematic of all. If Judaism can't proudly and honestly defend its' teachings to all in the full light of day - it's in big trouble, isn't is it not?

[Arnold]

With all due repsect Lamm is a lightweight and intellectually dishonest. By that I mean, his whole approach is us against them meaning us against the yeshiva world to the point of ridicule, making him of course no different than the very yeshiva world and its colsemindedness, that he rails against.

What I love about Judaism and more importantly the Torah is that unlike any other religious dogma, there is nothing-NOTHING-that a rabbi can do that I cannot as a simple Jew and more importantly, he has no more or less obligations than I thereby rendering the rabbi a purely optional entity. So while I agree with the following statement:

"While it is possible to separate God from Orthodox Judaism"

I disagree with this one "it is impossible to separate rabbis from Orthodox Judaism" because the Rabbis do not define my service to the Creator, nor do I need any of them to continue to pray and serve Hashem, buy a lulav, build a succah, wear teffilin, daven with a minyan, study Torah, wash netilas yadayim, say Shema al hamitah, give tzedakah and Shalach manot, make a bracha on thunder or lightening, do chesed and an overwhelming list of other worthwhile actions and spiritual activities that bring me closer to Heaven.

So I do not think secularism is the answer. I think Torah is and if that means that the Rabbis need to be seperated from Torah, so be it. The Torah CLEARLY does not need to rabbis of today to be it's ambassador for if it did, what good would it be? The Torah is a living breathing thing with or without the corruption of the people who profess to live by it.

[malachhamovies]

Shmarya,

Check out the forward's piece on the singer Matisyahu. He states that he basically has left chabad.

[Anon]

Dude, now you are starting up with the MO . Before you know it the only friends you have will be Reform.

[Arnold]

I'll be your friend Shmarya-secularism or not...

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Arnold,

Your points are very well taken.

Personally, I put everything I say, do, or feel through what I call the "Torah/Prophet" Filter.

What passes through it, according to the intelligence that G-d has granted me, I follow through on.

This personal policy has given me much contentment and peace of mind.

In this unfortunate era of so much corruption in our so called "Rabbinic Leadership" at all levels and in all groups, we need, in my humble opinion, to get back and follow through on the basic foundations of our faith.

[avrohom]

scotty,

instead of your diatribe about other people's deceit you should come clean in every single antisemitic posting of yours: you are not against chassid, charedi, mo ills; you are against judaism! period. anything jewish irks you. you do not beleif in Hashem of Yisrael, in atah bechartanu that is the begining and end of the story...that is why you laud the expulsion of 9,000 jews....you defend SS and want to do away with mila and everything JEwish. When you post against MBP state that you are against MIlah not only of the RABBIS but of THe Bible where it ties the milah with the special bond between the people ofisrael children of ABraham and His G-d.

YOu do not care about the lack of careeers of charedim as far as you concerned they should all drop dead ....you are concerned that they beleive in torah she baal peh and in a G-d ofYisrael...

you and your ilk will dissapear from the map and their descendans will survive as jews...

[Aon]

Noah Feldman's argument was against MO, not chareidi Judaism. Rabbi Lamm's argument of today's halacha is justified. He represents MO. Don't bring your charedi diatribe against him.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I was raised secular/Reform. (Functionally secular, but Reform a few times a year- very common). I found my life utterly meaningless. But I have become disillusioned with what passes for Orthodoxy. Just because Orthodoxy is bullshit doesn't mean the opposite extreme is the answer either. I try to find my own middle ground, like Arnold and John K.

[Edious]

Yochanan Lavie sounds like your still reform.

[JewishCynic]

Shmarya, what Aon said hits it on the head - don't knock Lamm for the views of the haredim.
Feldman attacks MO - rips it really, even implying complicity with Amir's killing Rabin and Goldstein shooting Palestinians. Why such a problem with MO? Because they won't accept his non-jewish wife as part of the community that Feldman desperately wants to be a part of.
This guy's a Harvard Law professor?! His article is so rambling and filled with muddied logic that it would be looked down on in a web blog. Yet it appears in the NYT (guess the NYT allows people to use their paper as a blog if the piece follows their anti-religious beliefs). Guess Harvard Law isn't the same place portrayed in the old TV show "The Paper Chase". Feldman's "essay" reads more like a "stream of consciousness" rant that he should hand to his shink at their next session. And BTW I'm not religious myself (though I grew up that way) so I don't criticize Feldman out of a knee jerk defense of my beliefs.
About the whole shabat/goy's life issue. I don't find it disturbing that a "legal loophole" has to be used to allow saving a non-jew. After all, a loophole has to be used to allow saving a jew. What I wish the sleazy types who consider themselves "orthodox" would learn is that to "maintain peaceful relations between the Jewish and non-Jewish communities" a jew is obligated to violate the sabbath and save the life of a non-jew. So how can you violate "maintaining peaceful relations between the Jewish and non-Jewish communities" to steal money from non-jews?!
(I know, but it's ok for me to wish isn't it?).
Holy cow, I'm still blown away with the nuttiness of Feldman's complaint. If he loved Big Macs would he have shown up at the reunion with a bag of Big Macs and then complained that his ex classmates didn't want him to sit and eat with them?
That was my blog rant. If the NYT wants to publish it they have my permission (all I ask is that they correct any spelling errors!)

[Shmarya]

It is NOT just a haredi viewpoint. It is common in right wing Modern Orthodoxy, especially in Israel.

And Rabbi Lamm did NOT make that statement with any qualifier – he did NOT say MO only.

[avrohom]

but you lie all the time. You accuse people with lies. Your whole existence is a big lie and deceit.

Say clearly that you hate Judaism hate those who "invented" the particularity of G-d of ISrael. IN every post that you post make that as a disclaimer of your REAL intentions. Then talk about your beeding love for the animals about shchitah, about your bleeding so called love for the children who are harmed by mbp, for yout so called love for the haredi who have no careeer and your other "loves" so we will all know that and your ilk hate anything that relates to TOraht Hashem Elokey Yisrael and you cannot stand shchitah, milah, torah she baal peh velimudah, avodas Hashem through the guidance of a Tzaddik which is your real beef and your LIES badmouthing tzadikim (As your unrecorded LIE that a certain Rebbe told others not to give to a psecific fund) then everyone will see through the venner of all your "values" what you are really after and they will understand how such an individual: praiseed an expulsion of 9,000 jews with glee, and defends an SS officcer.

[Shmarya]

(As your unrecorded
LIE that a certain Rebbe told others not to give to a psecific fund)

The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe told his followers during the Hoocaust NOT to give money to the Va'ad Hatzoloh. He also attacked Va'ad leaders for raising money on Shabbos to save lives (even though halakha MANDATES breaking Shabbos to save lives) and for dealing with Christian clergy to save lives. The man was a shoteh.

Source? HaKriah v'HaKedusha, his very own "newspaper."

Don't forget that he started his own "Pidyon Shvuyim Fund" to "rescue" Jews from the Nazis, but he used a large chunk of the money raised to open his Brooklyn yeshiva, instead. (Documented in Rigg, Rescued From The Reich.)

[avrohom]

YES Shmaryah, you still LIE Your assertion to the contrary and Rigg's assertion without the sourse is a total LIE. DOn't repeat the lie with other canard attacks. THere is no source whatsoever (even from liars) that he told others not to give to to others (i read likutey dibburim hakriah vehakdusha and there
is nothibng of this sort) . You are a liar and deceitful person. and your whole purpose in the past few years is to remove Hashe, ELokey Yisroel. All you prove is that any value that has no dource in torah leads to the worse traits: criticizing tzadikim and laudining jewish expulsion and DEFENDING SS OFFCERS!

[Larry Rabinovich]

Shmarya

You have been unfair in characterizing Rabbi Lamm's comments and , in particular, in your headline. He explicitly indicates that he is giving " my stand as an Orthodox Rabbi".
He is not presenting a historical review of the debate, something that as a scholar (not a lightweight by any means) is quite capable of writing. And Howie- the Mishna and Gemara are the word of G-d? At which yeshiva did you learn that? Rabbi Lamm's is a sophisticated analysis for one very sophisticated reader . If certain bnei yeshiva are not used to thinking in those terms so be it. But it presents a cogent argument and I hope that Professor Feldman ultimately responds. I might add that I hope that response includes an acknowledgment that certain elements of his memoir went too far and were wrong- or else that they should not have been published in that particular forum.

[Dr Fred]

There is a principle that "without Derech Eretz ( an innate sense of decency and moral behavior) there can be no Torah".If there is a past ruling that cannot be changed, there being no Sanhedren, and cannot be countenanced because it goes against our innate sense of decency, then we must shelve it. This takes courage on the part of rabbis, who lack that vital quality, so we must perforce make that decision for ourselves.

[Shmarya]

Dr. Fred –

Good point.

avrohom –

Funny how everyone who has negative information about your rebbes is a liar. What an amazing conspiracy.

[Shmarya]

Larry –

Not unfair at all. His "stand as an Orthodox rabbi" should NOT preclude telling the truth.

[avrohom]

no scotty: anyone who constantly states defamatory info about someone and cannot back it up and then claims yotzz plotz said it and yotz plots did notsay it is A LIAR!

you claim constantly for years that the rebbe told people not give money to others. You could not back it up. YOu send to riggs and yotz plotz. They do not go that far as you do. You vclaim it says in hakriah vehakdushoh. you cannot back it up because it does not say this. You continue saying this: you are A PATHOLOGICAL ANTISEMITIC LIAR!

[Shmarya]

Actually, Rigg says it explicitly. And you, avrohom, are simply afraid to look.

[Alex]

next avrohom is going to go on a rampage and say that microscopes that show that organic beings are made out of cells are liars, and that we are really made up of hebrew letters connected to each other. He is going to call the microscopes liars.

[Alex]

Avrohom said "you claim constantly for years that the rebbe told people not give money to others"

I have never heard Shmarya make that particular claim.

[Dave]

Arnold, John and Yochanan,
Excellent posts. Of course I agree with you.
I have briefly considered Karaite Judaism. However, traditionally they did not just reject the Mishna and the Gemara as being not divine, they actually seemed to have been opposed to most of its content. I think they've changed to some extent, but generally they do not consider the Talmud of much value, although I could be wrong.
I do not consider the Mishna and the Gemara to be divine, which I would if I were Orthodox. However, I think that some of much of the Mishna and the Gemara are valid.
So my solution is a new sect- Rational Traditional Judaism- a synthesis of the best of Karaite and Rabbinic Judaism- to the right of Conservative, but to the left of Orthodox. I am working on the details.

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Yochanan Lavie sounds like your [sic] still reform."

You don't know me, and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You also don't know a thing about Reform. (They would not let me wear a kippah on the bimah during my "Bar mitzvah," for example.) As a Reformist, I used to eat trief, not observe shabbat, and not believe that the torah is from God. All those things still made me an okay Reform Jew. Now I do observe and believe those things. I just don't buy into pinheaded rabbis who misinterpret the torah for their own political needs.

"I do not consider the Mishna and the Gemara to be divine, which I would if I were Orthodox. However, I think that some or much of the Mishna and the Gemara are valid."

Me too, which doesn't make me Reform. (Reform Judaism is simply Political Correctness, plus a few holidays.)

[avrohom]

alex and co,

you seem to blind to facts around you...you will blame rabbis for all ills of the world regardless of whether the ill comes from the weather or china or scotty
or alex...but when the LIAR Scotyy said numerous times that a Rebbe told people not to give money to another group you become all of sudden deaf and blind....

You are all a bunch of hypchrites. Thatpiece of garbage is not recorded anywhere; it is just heresayof haters and scotty repeats it al the timeasif its engraved in stone... like he and his co lies about this they lied about manyother things and certanily their judgment is flawed by their blind hatred to observant jews.

[Alex]

alex and co,

you seem to blind to facts around you...you will blame rabbis for all ills of the world regardless of whether the ill comes from the weather or china or scotty
or alex...

we only blame rabbis for stuff that they cause, nothing more, nothing less. would avrohom dare to say that the rabbis are above criticism?

the LIAR Scotyy said numerous times that a Rebbe told people not to give money to another group you become all of sudden deaf and blind.

I never heard shmarya make that particular claim either. avrohom is merely misinterpiting what shmarya actually said out of hysteria.

----------------------------------

I do not consider the Mishna and the Gemara to be divine, which I would if I were Orthodox. However, I think that some or much of the Mishna and the Gemara are valid."

-------------------------------------

Me too, which doesn't make me Reform. (Reform Judaism is simply Political Correctness, plus a few holidays.)

Yochanan, don't be so quick to write off conservative or reform judaism. for one thing alternatives are needed to break the orthodox monopoly of civic institutions in Israel.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex: I believe in civil liberties for Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel. And I think the rabbinate is a socialist monopoly. But I was raised Reform and I cannot personally stand it. I am more sympathetic to Conservatism, but it has become Reform Lite. I like Dave's ideas better.

As Voltaire said, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it. Reform, Conservative and Chareidi have the right to compete in the free market of ideas. I don't have to agree with them. And nobody should use gov't power to corner that market.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex: I believe in civil liberties for Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel. And I think the rabbinate is a socialist monopoly. But I was raised Reform and I cannot personally stand it. I am more sympathetic to Conservatism, but it has become Reform Lite. I like Dave's ideas better.

As Voltaire said, I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it. Reform, Conservative and Chareidi have the right to compete in the free market of ideas. I don't have to agree with them. And nobody should use gov't power to corner that market.

[avrohom]

alex,

Here is what i wrote:

"the LIAR Scotyy said numerous times that a Rebbe told people not to give money to another group you become all of sudden deaf and blind."

You wrote:
"I never heard shmarya make that particular claim either. avrohom is merely misinterpiting what shmarya actually said out of hysteria".

----

Alex as i said your hatred to observant jews
makes you blind and deaf to see your own ills and what is written on the blog numerous times and this stupid thread. Just scroll a few messages back:

ME:
"no scotty: anyone who constantly states defamatory info about someone and cannot back it up and then claims yotzz plotz said it and yotz plots did notsay it is A LIAR!

you claim constantly for years that the rebbe told people not give money to others. You could not back it up. YOu send to riggs and yotz plotz. They do not go that far as you do. You vclaim it says in hakriah vehakdushoh. you cannot back it up because it does not say this. You continue saying this: you are A PATHOLOGICAL ANTISEMITIC LIAR!

Posted by: avrohom | August 03, 2007 at 05:37 PM

And here is you scotty and alex:

"Actually, Rigg says it explicitly. And you, avrohom, are simply afraid to look".

Here he reiterates again his LIES but his LIES are kosher because he is a secular humanist antisemite together with the ehole school....

Posted by: Shmarya | August 03, 2007 at 05:48 PM

[Shmarya]

This is not the post for this discussion. That being said, Rigg is quite clear. I think if avrohom would read Rigg, and read the footnotes as well, he would stop harping on this point.

But, because avrohom will not do that, I'll do a new post on the 'holy tzaddik,' Josef Isaac Schneersohn.

It's the price avrohom will pay for his disgusting behavior.

[avrohom]

You were a liar and will conitnue to be liar because it is a sickness of yours.

The REbbe neer said what you acused him of saying. You are a pathological anttisemite who lauds the expulsion of 9,000 jews and defends an SSofficcer.

[Shmarya]

See the new post and, no, I am not lying. You, however are – both to yourself and to others.

[Alex]

"The REbbe neer said what you acused him of saying. You are a pathological anttisemite who lauds the expulsion of 9,000 jews and defends an SSofficcer."

Avohom needs a new slogan.

[Alex]

Here is a slogan for avrohom:

Welcome to Orthodox Judaism! Ignorance is knowledge, letting nonjews die on the sabbath and throwing rocks at secular jews is love thy neighbor, and poverty is wealth.

[Nachman]

PRECISELY!
The Orthodoxy that YOU know (or pretend to know) - NOT the real deal.
Q. for you:
As a Secular misfit, where do you stand? Are you rich? Do you LOVE EVERYONE - including those who disagree with your perverted way of thinking? YOU would NEVER throw rocks on ANYONE? (particularly if you wouldn't get caught) Would you save EVERYONE's life including those that can't wait to kill YOU? I DON'T THINK SO.
What have you done for YOUR community lately?
So you see? Orthodoxy/Hareidim has faults that should definitely be addressed, but P-L-E-A-S-E...

[Nachman]

And how about this?
What do you know about car engines? What do you know about airplanes? What do you know about electronics? What do you know about EVERY aspect of medicine? How good are you in math? How about every aspect of our legal system? WHAT???!??!!!? How could you not know? YOU IGNORANT IDIOT!

Get my drift?
We study what interests US. We CHOOSE not to take interest in things that don't really matter to us. Just as sure as everybody else has the right to choose his/her subject of interest and to do away with the rest, SO DO ORTHODOX JEWS! We are uninterested in ARROGANCE pseudo-named "SCIENCE" and truckloads of crap called "HISTORY"
You never tasted the light of Torah! Had you done so you would have dedicated all your spare time to devour more of it!

And No! I don't live/like LAKEWOOD
THE TORAH RULES!

[Alex]

As a Secular misfit, where do you stand? Are you rich?

I am working hard and one day I will be. And don't call me misfit.

Do you LOVE EVERYONE - including those who disagree with your perverted way of thinking? YOU would NEVER throw rocks on ANYONE? (particularly if you wouldn't get caught)

No I would never throw rocks at anyone. I write about intellectual disagreements and would not resort to such barbarism.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm cool with everyone and if there is a reason to not be cool with someone I just ignore the person.

Would you save EVERYONE's life including those that can't wait to kill YOU? I DON'T THINK SO.
What have you done for YOUR community lately?

Do you think that a secular guy and girl who just wants to walk down the street holding hands want to kill a haredi who would throw a rock at them? Maybe afterwards but not before.

And what have you done for your community? Give stupid rants on Failed Messiah?

And how about this?
What do you know about car engines? What do you know about airplanes? What do you know about electronics? What do you know about EVERY aspect of medicine? How good are you in math? How about every aspect of our legal system? WHAT???!??!!!? How could you not know? YOU IGNORANT IDIOT!

I actually do have a broad background in those subjects. In today's day and age it is impossible to be specialized in every academic field but it is certainly possible to have a broad background.

And if you think that science and history are truckloads of crap, then you belong in Iran, Nachman.

You never tasted the light of Torah! Had you done so you would have dedicated all your spare time to devour more of it!

Actually I have, and I'd rather devour big mac meals.

[Nachman]

Alex.
I refer to you as a misfit since you have plenty of your OWN issues where I suspect you have failed. You are VERY angry at your failures but hate to face it. So you a controversial blogspot and vent all of your frustrations there towards Orthodox Jews.
You know VERY WELL that there are plenty of educated people in our community. Some are doctors others are lawyers or other professionals. I personally have "vast knowledge" in some of the fields I mentioned. I am Pro level in more than one field. After all is set and done, I enjoy a "Blatt" more than anything else.

It is really sad to see that Yiddishkeit has failed you and Shmarya and brought you to the brink of spiritual suicide. Why spend ALL day at the keyboard tiring your fingers with rhetoric which may Chalila one day come back to haunt you. G-d forbid. You will not change anything! Rather, spend your precious time to become a better Jew yourself. Running was NEVER a solution. It shows weakness.

As stated on another occasion, I work HARD for a living, I am happy with my lot and PROUD TO BE AN ULTRA ORTHODOX JEW. I am active in my community in various fields. I am VERY aware of my surroundings and what's wrong with it. I chose NOT to leave it behind but rather DO what I can to mend the situation and at the same time try to perfect MYSELF.

I, as most rational people come here for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY! The nature of my work allows me the time/luxury to entertain myself with this site.

And YES! I think alot of crap that's being peddled/sold as science and history is EXACTLY that. You know it better than I do.

And the big mac thing? Boyyyyyy if only I can have one... I'm sure it's deeeeeeelicious. My mouth is watering just at the thought. Sorry though, I will have to settle for Rubashkin's/Meal Mart Burgers....

I wish you much success at your work and in all your endeavors, and hope that some day you will be rich and free of frustrations. Maybe WHEN you will see divine providence you will change your ways and thank Hashem for all the good he has done you. You will then cease to hate EVERYTHING that even remotely "smells" from Yiddishkeit. You will find ways to become CLOSER to Hashem.

Blessings.

[Alex]

I refer to you as a misfit since you have plenty of your OWN issues where I suspect you have failed.

you don't know me.

[steven]

Noah Feldman's inflammatory article unleashed two weeks of debate within and about modern orthodoxy.

Not only was the article poorl argued--lumping tefillin with Oped Dei accoutrements and pulling in Yigdal Amir and Baruch Goldstein as representative examples of the movement, the social slight that justified the article--his being cropped from a class photo because he had a non-Jewish fiance--was a fabrication.

As Feldman admitted in the Jewish Week, he knew two weeks in advance of the article's publication that many photos were taken at his reunion, none of which captured all the students. The one that appeared didn't have Feldman and his wife to be, but it also excluded fourteen other people as well.

One would expect a Harvard Law professor to be more careful with the facts and less loose with prejudicial innuendo that is patently false.

[Alex]

tefillin is definently a form of self flagilation- duh it leaves a red mark on the arm every time it gets worn and its purpose is self-subjugation to der furrer eloheim who wants people lashed for flipping a lightswitch on Saturday, if present day rabbinic judaism is to be believed.

[Shmarya]

steven –

You might try reading my post on this revelation, where I show clearly that the the OU (and you, for that matter) have no leg to stand on.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/08/the-ou-presses-.html

[Nachman]

Alex.
I don't know you?
Duh!
But YOU are advertising it all over this blog...

[Alex]

Moron Nachman- one does not have to have a bad break in life in order to be disenchanted with religion or merely a sect of it.

Take your chomrot and choke yourself with them.

The whole orthodox premise is this: "We believe we have everything, because we don't want anything and if you join us is not wanting anything, Hashem will make it so you have everything too!"

Nachman- you are probably some poor slob with a long beard and dirty white shirt living in some slum somewhere with a 386 computer from ten years ago.

[Dave]

Alex, I agree with some of your posts, and quite frankly I am not Orthodox, as I have said before. However, I am traditional- something the Orthodox cannot understand.
I think you are going to far saying tefilin is flagellation. I sometimes put on tefilin and when I also concentrate, I really do feel more spiritual. I agree with the Karaites that it is certainly not mandated in the Torah, and so I think it should be optional. But if it makes someone feel spiritual, why not let them. For a similar reason I would say that if someone who is not Karaite wants to occasionally "daven" in the Karaite way ie. kneeling etc., I think if it makes them feel good spiritually, they should do it, and should be accepted as an absolutely valid expression of Jewish spirituality.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Dave & Alex: Maybe the lyrics of Boston's rock anthem were really "More than Te'feelin'."

[Alex]

dave- if one wants to make a red mark with tefillin if it makes him feel good spiritually, y not make a red mark with knives?

[Alex]

red marks with knives lasts longer.

[Dave]

Alex, I guess you must be against circumcision too?

[Alex]

I can accept that whatever is cut from a circumcision has no biological function however I am uncertain that the cutting of a baby's penis should be such a public event.

[Alex]

* the cutting off of something around a baby's penis

[Mikha'el M.]

Shmarya,

I think your response is completely unfair - Rabbi Lamm doesn't have to answer to the Haredi view, any more than he has to answer to the Reform or Conservative or Buddhist view. He is a member of his own school, and has a right to represent it. And if you'll object that he called himself "Orthodox", well, isn't he? Haredi isn't any more "Orthodox" than Modern Orthodox; if anything, Modern Orthodox is more Orthodox because it has "Orthodox" as part of its title!

It is completely irrelevant that the Haredi world views things differently - let them think what they want, but it does not trouble the Modern Orthodox. Rabbi Dr. Joseph Breuer said the same regarding Torah im Derech Eretz - we have our own shita, and let the Haredim say what they will, for their criticism does not touch us. (And indeed, all of Rav Hirshc's own comments, he phrased himself as "we", "Judaism", etc., even though many of his hashkafot are clearly in the minority, such as his view that Judaism is an anthropology and has nothing theological, mystical, thaumaturgical or theosophic about it.) Criticizing Rabbi Lamm for disagreeing with the Haredim, is exactly like the reverse: attacking the Haredim for disagreeing with the Modern Orthodox. Would you accuse the Haredim of being dishonest when they claim that "Torah-only" is the ideal lifestyle? After all, the Modern Orthodox clearly say otherwise! Who are the Haredim to state their lie?!

Changing subjects...

It's been put by others, such as Professor Marc B. Shapiro (if I remember correctly), that halakhah operates with legal tools, not moral ones. For example, no one would deny that rabbis strive to eliminate agunot, even though no rabbi has ever said, "Well, she'd be an agunot, so let's just say, on moral grounds, that she's not one". Similarly, the Midrash itself cavails against the idea of mamzerut, and complains that it is unfair to the mamzer himself, who did nothing wrong. So what did the Gemara do? Did it say, "Mamzerut is immoral in our eyes, so let's ban it"? No! Instead, rabbis use loopholes like finding defects in the ketubah and witnesses, not hearing testimony that someone is a mamzer, etc. So too with Shabbat - we have a certain moral difficulty, and we use legal tools to solve it. Are these legal tools morally satisfying? Of course not, but they never claimed to be.

Also...

You bring Rabbi Weinberg that Judaism is indeed racist against gentiles, as an indictment against Rabbi Lamm. But you miss Rabbi Weinberg's entire purpose! His point is that without the Meiri, Judaism is racist, and that we must in fact adopt the Meiri as our official position and belief, in order that Judaism no longer be racist. Is this not exactly what Rabbi Lamm has done? You are criticizing Rabbi Lamm because he holds according to Rabbi Weinberg himself following to Meiri, rather than according to normative Orthodoxy according to Rabbi Weinberg! In other words, Rabbi Weinberg has prescribed Orthodoxy's cure for a fault which you yourself find, and then you criticize Rabbi Lamm for taking this cure and being cured of the fault which you attribute to Orthodoxy! You can't have your cake and eat it too - if you want Orthodoxy to change, then don't criticize this changed Orthodoxy for being contrary to the Orthodoxy which you had just criticized!