Israel's Sex Worker Slave Trade

Aidan Maconachy writes:

…Amnesty International contend the Israeli government and the police have largely turned a blind eye to this trade [in foreign women] going on under their nose. Exactly how a nation that arose on the back of a history of victimization can be so slow to act firmly to root out the systemic exploitation and abuse of smuggled females within their own society is a mystery that is difficult to fathom.

Many Jewish writers and commentators in the US and Canada have been shocked by the impunity of Israeli pimps and gangsters. Many are dismayed by the apparent unwillingness of the Israeli government to crack down on a trade that the authorities are all too well aware of. Here in Canada the respected investigative journalist, Victor Malarek, has done some excellent work in exposing the trade.

There is a strong racist element to the trade in Israel. Leah Gruenpeter-Gold, a co-director of the Awareness Center in Tel Aviv, claims that these young Eastern European women are being sacrificed to the sexual needs of males, in a culture that protects the virtue of the Jewish female. She and her associate spoke of their disgust at the manner in which some orthodox Jews take advantage of these women.

The haredin - orthodox Jews - crowd into Tel Aviv brothels on Friday mornings and afternoons for pre-Shabbat fun and games. In the area of the Stock Exchange and Diamond Exchange this activity is particularly in evidence. Since the orthodox cannot masturbate according to religious law, they must have sex with a woman. Their law prohibits them from using condoms, so they have to pay the pimps more in order to have "the privilege".

Grunpeter-Gold claims the victims are being sacrificed ..."because these women are not human beings ... they are foreign women. The religious prefer it to be with foreign women because then they don't wrong Jewish women."

Why isn't more done to stop the ongoing sexual victimization of women in Israel? According to the girls working in the trade, police and other prominent members of Israeli society are reputedly involved themselves - sometimes in taking bribes or other "business", or just as clients. A percentage of orthodox as mentioned are also involved. Who knows how deep the collusion goes - it's impossible to track. But certainly such connections would work against official attempts to crack down on the trade.

Of course, from the late 1800s through the late 1920s, Jewish pimps filled brothels in South America with Jewish girls taken from the same areas of Russia and Ukraine the current non-Jewish sex slaves are stolen from. Nathan Englander's new novel, The Ministry of Special Cases, deals with the aftermath of this sordid history.

But Maconachy's point still stands:

"Exactly how a nation that arose on the back of a history of victimization can be so slow to act firmly to root out the systemic exploitation and abuse of smuggled females within their own society is a mystery that is difficult to fathom."

[Hat Tip: Seymour.]

UPDATE: It turns out this is a 6-month-old article and, low and behold, Rebecca Honig Friedman posted on it in a much more timely fashion over on Jewess. She now notes that since her original post, Israel has been doing a little better in dealing with human trafficking. Despite that, though, Israel still has a long way to go.

Comments

[Avrum]

In fact there have been quite a few trials against those pimps, and the allegations regarding the complicity of the police are based on scant evidence. There's no society on earth in which prostitution doesn't exist. The chances of eradicating it are the same in Israel and in Canada, Jewish victimization notwithstanding. The story about the "virtue of the Jewish female" makes no sense to people who know something about contemporary Israel. This post is a pretty good example of guilt mongering.

[Shmarya]

Really? Even Jewish groups otherwise supportive of Israel find Israel's record in this area wanting.

[Sarah]

You don't have to go to Israel to see religious Jewish men taking advantage of Gentile women. There are Jewish pimps working out of Chabad centers in the States right under the noses of the rabbis. I suppose it's kosher as long as the sex workers are not Jewish. The underage consumption of alcohol and drug use and dealing in illegal substances among some of their youngsters is also appalling. Some of the yeshiva boys even get off fooling around among themselves but the rebs and the elders look the other way. Maybe that's their version of promoting outreach. Their motto should be: don't look, don't ask, don't tell.

[Yisroel]

Does this article mean to suggest that only non-orthodox Jews are faithful to their wives?

[Abe]

Quite a comment about Haredi Orthodoxy when these men bastardize their religion to gratify their unbearable sexual urges. I suppose their torah-induced hypocricy has left them incapable of recognizing the irony of their sins. I mean, if you're going to engage in illicit sex, why would masturbation or condom use present a problem in the first place?
These people actualy beieve that they can remain good Jews if only they remain faithful to their ancient irrational sexual proscriptions. There is the perfidy that defines their religion.

[J]

How is this illicit sex? The women aren't Jewish and besides, adultery in Torah is only defined as a married woman having sex with someone else. There are no restrictions on a married man. These men have studied Torah. They know what's allowed and what's not; they would never break any of the rules because that would desecrate G-d's name. These are obviously incredibly religious men, the only true followers of Judaism. Look how careful they are not to waste their seed as did Onan. All men everywhere should emulate such righteous behavior.

[Isa]

Regarding:
""Their law prohibits them from using condoms, so they have to pay the pimps more in order to have "the privilege".""
Har Har Har these idiots will get HIV/AIDS in time at all, Not to mentions all the OTHER STD's, Of course these idiots will pass it to their wives and mayber even to their cildren if they are the molesting type.

[Anonymous]

Not to subtract from the nefariousness of all this, but the ignorance on the part of the article's author AS WELL AS Shmarya and some readers and even the "Johns" themselves requires some explanation.

What these men are doing for Friday activities is one of the biggest sins in the Torah. There is no loophole that allows sex with a non-Jewish woman. Quite the contrary! The Geonim wrote that intercourse with the non-Jewish woman surpasses all other illicit relationships in it's gravity except for sex between gay men and bestiality. It is even worse than adultery according to a scale of what it takes to make the sexual partner permissable to you. A married woman would have to go through the divorce process to become permissable while a non-Jewish woman would have to go through a lengthy conversion process and acquire a neshoma to become permissable.

The Rambam points out that the Torah creates an issur nidda out of nowhere just to nail the sinner. The sinner is also chayav karess and misa if a kanoi is around. There is a Gemora that equates it with kefira ba'ikkur and other Kadmonim write of the tremendous punshiment such a sinner receives in the world to come.

[Alex]

I'm planning on intermarrying. I don't want the stupidity of having a Judaism 100,000,000,000,000 times stricter than the Torah intended to be imposed on me.

[Anonymous]

Funny how Alex thinks that any normal woman, Jewish or non-Jewish would go for his charming personality.

[shmuel]

Alex is actually a female, Anonymous.

[Anonymous]

What a turn off. I hope I'm not chauvinistic in having thought that only the male species could have been as rude, vulgar and uncouth as Alex.

[Alex]

shmuel- you wish -.-

Anonymous -> actually in person, when I am not writing to get people thinking, I am a quite friendly and easy to get along with.

[Alex]

* ignore the indefinite article before quite, mistake

[Marc]

I'm not surprised; here in the U.S. Israelis aren't exactly angels. In fact when I worked in a bank years ago, we were told to be careful when dealing with Israelis, or Armenians due to the bank fraud very prevalent in these groups. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Pakistanis & Nigerians are known for very high fraud rates. Phone companies do not allow calls from here to Pakistan from a payphone because they almost always get fleeced.

[Anon]

I'm not sure how anyone can take this article seriously (though Israel certainly has a booming sex trade) particularly the portion of the article Shmarya saw fit to put in in bold (as he apparently thinks it is okay for non religious to frequent prostitutes but not for the orthodox). Does anyone really believe that an orthodox jew the has sex with a prostitute cares about whether masturbation or using a condom is permitted or not. Sex with a prostitute is definitely forbidden (according to most authorities it is a rabinic prohibition according to Mainmonodes it is a biblical prohibition. Either the author of this article is a bigot or he inadvertently picked up a piece of bigotry posted by someone else. Shmarya, I think you are too smart to have posted this bigotry inadvertently which leaves only one option.

[Shmarya]

Actually, the condom issue is real. What this reporter "picked up" is the truth, although I'm sure many haredi prostitute-gowers do use condoms. But some definitely will not for religious reasons.

[Isa]

Even with a condom, getting hepatitis C is a real possibility. If a drop of infected blood is dried, the HIV virus is very much likely to be killed off, not so with hepatitis C.
A prostitute has the result of thousands of sex acts because all the 'johns' pass ALL their encounters off to her.

[Anonymous]

It's remotely possible that an ignorant "frum" faker will not use a condom for the reason that the author and Shmarya offer. If he was erudite, he would know there is a loophole in halacha that might allow using a condom in that scenario, but by the same token, someone that learned would know the gravity of that sin, with or without a condom, is more than he can bear.

It's more likely that this is fabricated / exaggerated as anyone in his right mind would fear contracting diseases and would wear a condom regardless.

[RHF]

I posted about Aidan Maconachy's post, and the problematic attitude on the part of Orthodox men toward non-Jewish women, a while ago: http://jewess.canonist.com/?p=43
It should be noted that Israel's been taken off the U.N.'s "Watch List" since Maconachy posted that.
But that doesn't mean human trafficking isn't still an important issue for Israel to address, or that hasidim who frequent these prostitutes shouldn't be ashamed of themselves (with or without condoms).

[Sarah]

What do their rabbis have to say about the haredim doing this? And where are the Israeli authorities? Are they also customers so looking the other way? This is a disgrace. Almost as bad as rabbis and teachers abusing young boys at yeshivas. Some teshuvah is called for.

[Lev]

1) Sarah, Me, Lion Of Stone in Avraham 's definition, invites you to come to CROWN HEIGHTS on Simhas Beis Hashoeiva or Simhas Torah: underage alchohol and drug abuse, making out, etc., etc., etc.
Some outreach.
2) Anonimous, do not worry, as my friend says, do not get into lather.
Whole story is a load of BS.
Shmarya has his agenda and decided to post it.
Prostitution/White Slavery/Flesh Trade in Tel Aviv is controlled by Soviet "Jews"(they are divided into hadashim and vatikim).
Some of them are powerful: Kobzon,Gusinsky, Gaidamak, etc.
Who do Russians hate the most?
You read Hamodia, you know: Hareidim(called "peisatye" from peyos)
As Gemorah says, they transfer their crimes on the people they despise the most.
Why is not a question for this blog.
If not for Arab threat, there would be Iraq-like civil war in Israel between russians and hareidim.
Smarya, I know, even Lubavitcher that hates you disagrees with me, BUT:Is it better to be a schnorrer or to plunder non-Jewish people, like abovementioned trio?...
N.B. Some of the exploited girls are Ukrainians.
Their grandparents joyfully greated Hitler and participated in the savage murder of 1,000,000 Jews only there.
Now they are in Israel.
Irony of History, I was taught.

[Sarah]

Lev,
Been there, lived there, seen it.
Sarah

[Isa]

Regarding:
""Their grandparents joyfully greated Hitler and participated in the savage murder of 1,000,000 Jews only there.""
I was told this by a man that went through a death camp "with the Germans it was only because of hitler but the Ukrainians were born bad"

[Anonymous]

400 years ago, the Kav Hayashar quoted an even earlier work that the Ukranians especially and the Slavic people in general are virulently anti-Semitic because they descend from Tzfo, brother of Amalek and grandson of Esav.

The Slavs from the Baltic states were just as eager to kill Jews as the Ukranians even before the Nazis required it. The Poles slaughtered Jews en masse when the war was over.

A leading rosh yeshiva who escaped Poland and is still alive relates the following story. Two Polish shiksas were conversing near him on a train. One mentioned that even though the Germans destroyed their country, at least they exterminated the Jews. The rosh yeshiva comments that the Poles resented that any Jew with means in the old country had a Polish servant. Now that we came to America, illegal Polish workers follow us in droves to continue serving us.

[Anonymous]

More than half the Russians in Israel are non-Jewish Slavs. Is it any surprise then that they hate Charedim?

[Shmarya]

Of course, Jews – especially haredim – never did anything to cause any of this hatred, right?

I mean, haredim never referred to non-Jews with derogatory names (like shiksa, for example) or considered them to be donkeys. And they certainly never cheated them or swindled them in any way, right?

And haredim never derided non-Jews as less intelligent than Jews, oh no.

I mean, this whole hated thing is sooooooooo genetic. That's the only explanation.

[Anonymous]

You can always count on Shmarya to build a case against the Jews that casts them in the worst possible light. Shmarya's constant role is to demonize (mostly Orthodox but sometimes secular) Jews while finding no fault with anyone else. So yes, the Jews are guilty here, but Shmarya isn't honest enough to tell you where else the guilt is found.

[Jim the Catholic]

Oh boy could I tell you people some hairy stories about some so called "orthodox" and or "Traditional" Catholics & their sexual sins.

[Anon]

--It's remotely possible that an ignorant "frum" faker will not use a condom for the reason that the author and Shmarya offer.--

"remotely possible" is the operative term. The fellow we need not to be not just an ignorant faker, but also a complete imbecile. This makes as much sense as someone eating pork but making sure to say a bracha with kavana. Like any other denominations I'm sure that there are plenty of "frum fakers." But to claim that orthodox Jews that do sin and frequent brothels as a whole (or even a significant percentqage) are careful not to use a condom for religious reasons is absurd. Shmarya knows this is absurd but that does not seem to prevent him from posting this, highlight it and try to defend this. There are enough examples of this so as to call into doubt whether anything he posts on his blog is true or just pure fabrication.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Of course, Jews – especially haredim – never did anything to cause any of this hatred, right?"

Please tell me you're not rationalizing the murderous actions of the Nazi-loving Ukrainians during WWII. While I agree with many of the observations about frum Jews acting badly, it's quite a stretch to link that to the actions of the vile animals that happily worked with the Nazis. I usually don't have much use for rabbinic tales, especially from Ashkenazi haredim, but in this case the suggested link of those Ukrainians to Amalek seems more than appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Is Mr. Neo suggesting that Ashkenazi "Haredim" are more prone, in his opinion, to moral turpitude, than the non-Ashkenazi?

[Anonymous]

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Roth_Joel.html

What do the staunchest defenders of the Conservative movement on this site, Shmarya & Neo-Conservaguy say about Joel Roth? He is considered the top "posek" of the movement and he certifies the cafeteria at the Jewish Theological Cemetary.

[Yochanan Lavie]

As usual, ther are several issues being brought up here- in a confused jumble.

1. Israel is not Utopia. It is a real country inhabited by real human beings. Male Human beings have always used prostitutes, so of course Israel is going to have a problem. The issue is the need for better enforcement of "white slavery" laws. (Although I trust Amenesty Int'l about as far as I can throw it, more reliable sources have confirmed that).

2. Extreme sexual repression doesn't work. The other good customers of prosties in Israel are Muslim. Prostitution is also rampant in puritanical Iran, where Khomeini's tomb has become a pick-up spot. (Mullahs arange temporary marriages and divorces with the hookers, so that the Muslim students aren't technically sinning).

Having said that, there has to be a middle ground between repression and today's anything goes climate of Hollywood.

3. Racism is the crime of simply being born. That's why National Socialism was worse than Christian anti-Semitism. You can't "convert" your gene pool. (Although the Spanish pioneered racial anti-Semitism by distinguishing between "old" and "new" Christian blood- contrary to church doctrine).

I don't need to be convinced of the brutality of Ukrainian peasants. My grandfather told me hair-raising stories of pogroms in Russian Ukraine he lived through. But people should be treated as individuals. Fucking some poor, deluded whore who was born (not by her choice) Ukrainian avenges nobody and does nothing but perpetuate bad feelings.

(Shmarya: My grandparents just wanted to be left alone, and interacted as little as possible with the local gentiles. They did not cheat them in business, or provoke them in any way. And they had good relations with the Italian gentiles they encountered in the USA).

The rabbis admit that biblical geneology is not reliable due to intermarriage and invasion- notably Sennacharib, the Assyrian king's reign. I agree with them on this one.

4. Joel Roth and the JTS cafeteria: what does that have to do with this thread (or the price of tea in China)?

Not that anybody asked: Masturbation should be permitted. The Onan story described coitus interruptus, or pulling out, not whacking off. And he was condemned for refusing to have children, not pleasuring himself. Psychologists tell us that in moderation, it is a healthy thing (any excessive/compulsive behavior is bad). The rabbis, as usual, make things harder on us by reading the scripture in the harshest possible manner.

[Anonymous]

That will take the cake when Shmarya puts up an entry advocating masturbation :o)

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I don't understand your point about Rabbi Roth; by most accounts, he is one of the great last bastions of the classic JTS rabbinate, complete with non-egalitarian davening with the JTS mechitsa minyan. He is an acknowledged talmudic scholar, expert on kashruth, and he is a hard-liner against the Conservative movement "blessing" openly gay status of rabbinic students.

He resigned from the Conservative law committee because they passed - with a small symbolic number of votes (like the driving on Shabbat "permission") - some of the proposals to allow openly gay students at JTS. I would think such a position would be supported and admired by the Orthodox rabbinate and laity. Rabbi Roth instead supported more of a "don't ask, don't tell" approach that was the former policy he helped create.

[Anonymous]

Joel Roth has not stooped to the level of openly accepting gay abominations which should be expected of any human with some amount of moral fibre. He has been accused of other outrages that would prompt Shmarya to be all over him like a fly on a piece of excrement were Roth an Orthodox rabbi.

[Shmarya]

If you look at the history of Jewish and non-Jewish relations in Poland and Ukraine, what you'll see is that most antisemitism comes from a combination of economic and political repression.

Remember, the Jews went from collecting the taxes and running the feudal land holdings of the non-Jewish princes to a brief period as what we would call middle class merchants and professionals.

In other words, for hundreds of years, Jews served as a buffer between the poor, feudal masses and the rich oppressive landowners. After that Jews made up a big chunk of the middle class which was perceived by the poor as playing that very same role.

Jews went from that to supporting Communism and revolution. Normally this would have helped ameliorate antisemitism. It did not, however, because of the anti-religious nature of Communism. The Church was all these non-Jewish poor had for hundreds of years.

What upsets me is the quick resort to genetics – the seed of Amalek, etc.

The reality is there are many understandable reasons for Ukrainian antisemitism. (There is even one recent one – Chabad's support for Putin against the Ukraine, the assassination attempt against Ukraine's anti-Russian opposition leader and Chabad and Berel Lazar's meddling in Ukrainian politics to bolster the pro-Russian government, which lost that election.)

None of this excuses Ukrainian antisemitism.

And Ukrainian antisemitism should not excuse Jewish hatred and demoization of "goyyim."

[Shmarya]

Joel Roth has not stooped to the level of openly accepting gay abominations which should be expected of any human with some amount of moral fibre. He has been accused of other outrages that would prompt Shmarya to be all over him like a fly on a piece of excrement were Roth an Orthodox rabbi.

What Roth was accused of is making a sexually explicit remark to an adult male student. This apparently happened on two occasion, with different students, years apart.

I do not regularly cover the Conservative Movement or other non-Orthodox movements.

I'd also point out as others have that Roth has nothing to do with this post.

So why did "Anonymous" bring it up? Because people with small minds cannot argue logically or factually. I would think this is especially clear in "Anonymous's" case.

[Anonymous]

Funny how Shmarya is quick to downplay the Roth story. One incident with Roth was classified as just inappropriate behavior. The other was classified as sexual harassment. SHmarya is one picky zevuv. He prefers imbibing and spreading Orthodox excrement over Conservative.

[Shmarya]

No. I tend to stay focused on the issues of this blog rather than on the hatred of people like you.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya omits some important factors. Jews were basically forced into money lending by the Church who excluded them from many professions while prohibiting gentiles from charging interest.

Communist leaders were mostly secular. Some yeshiva students joined the movement but they did not stay religious for very long.

There aren't many fans here of Berel Lazar, me especially, but it's preposterous of Shmarya to say that Lazar just tops off a list of "many" historical reasons that Ukranians have to hate Jews. The fact remains that Jews did relatively nothing to deserve the 600 or so years that the Ukranians have a record of murdering them en masse.

SHmarya's thinking has become completely warped as he continues to wallow in his own poisonous hatred.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I agree with Shmarya that bad behavior on the part of gentiles does not justify racism. However, not everything can be boiled down to rational economic interests. Most Jews were as poor as the peasants who hated them (not all of whom were poor themselves). Just like many jihadis today are middle-upper class. Jews were forced into middleman positions by the divide-and-conquer nobility. They were not pursuing a Jewish national project by being tax farmers, etc. Although Marxism draws partial inspiration from Judaeo-Christian messianism, it is not only anti-religion, but especially anti-Jewish. Marx was raised as an Evangelical Lutheran by meshumed parents, and was himself an anti-Semite. The Jews who became commies were repudiating Judaism, not advancing it. Surely not all gentiles were stupid or uninformed. The other explanation is ideological anti-Semitism found in the Polish Roman Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, Russian Orthodox, and Ukrainian Orthodox churches. My grandfather experienced pogroms around Easter time- that is near tax season in the US, but I don't know about Czarist Russia.

[Shmarya]

The fact is, most, the majority, of historians – Jews and non-Jews both – agree with me.

There was little Ukrainian antisemitism in the first years of Jewish settlement. It took years of being the middleman to generate it.

And i guarantee you, the attitude of halakha toward non-Jews did not help.

And, before any of you cry foul, that halakhic attitude *PRECEDES* Jewish settlement in Poland and Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya is not being thorough - perhaps on purpose. During the early days of the Pale, there were Ukranian Cossacks or Ruthenians that were resettled from Lithuania who come from a mixed gene pool of Slavs, Vandals and Goths. Those other Germanic tribes have been identified as Amalek itself in Medieval writings. (R' Yaakov Emden says that even the Talmud Bavli in Megillah says so) The majority of early Ukranian inhabitants were Turkic Tatars who do not have the same anti-Semitic history as the Slavs / Ukranian Cossacks.

[Shmarya]

And "Anonymous" is being foolish. There was no widespread antisemitism in Lita, either.

Go hunt for Amelekites under your nearest rock and leave the rest of us alone.

[Lev]

Shmarya, there are two points:
1) my usage of the word "shiksa" is ONLY to describe female companions of Lazar's handlers and supporters and to show the corruption of the one of the main "shluhim", who with the help of the New KGB made himself "Chief Rabbi" of the largest country in the world, without knowing its language.
2) As you know, I don't argue with you on the matters of religion-halakha for lack of time, mood and space.
But you mention historians of Middle Ages in Ukraine, right? Lurie, Khostomarov, some others-are they translated into English? Can you read them in original?
Shmarya, evidence from the time shows that hair-raising butchery was not for "economical", "halakhic" reason but because that savages wanted to eradicate Yoshka(O.K., Christ)-killers, that's all...

Shmarya and all other posters who noticed my last sentence,
Engish translation of the books by A.Solzhenitsyn, "200 hundred years together"(very pro-Orthodox, Shmarya), by General Sudoplatov, who tesified on his deathbed that Organisation of UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS, still active, BTW, was a GESTAPO creation are availiable.
What also availiable are documents of that glorious gestapo creation, among them: ERADICATION of the ZHIDOVSTVO(Kikedom) as a whole for being..."Moskovites".
Shmarya, c'mon, Bobover Rebbe's family, killed by them BTW, were they "Moskovites", "Bolshevists"?..
Solzhenitsyn writes about religious animosity in Kievan Rus in 11 Hundreds.
Isa, you add interesting detail. Thank you.
NeoConservaGuy, there is PLENTY of info about that period on-line, in print, etc.
Anon 7AM, thank you very much for eludication about Kav Hayashar and Tzfo!

Yochanan Lavie, man, it is me, "lowlife" critic of the 8th Lubavitcher Rebbe V.V. Putin.
I never ever meant to assert that "doing", "banging" Ukrainian whore(and Ukrainian girls are whoring around the world then scream:"sexual slavery"!!!) IS SOME SORT OF THE REVENGE?
Anon 10AM, joke about brocho on chazir is good one.
Finally, Shmarya, where I agree with you, is that we cannot put past post ANYTHING about corrupt Putin-Oligarchs-Lazar machine,including meddling into elections of a sovereighn nation.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Lev; I would never call you a lowlife, tovarich. :)

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya: I too have decried anti-goyism on this site. But how would gentiles ever discover it, since they don't read Hebrew or Judaeo-Aramaic? From apostates? They exagerate. And also, it is not a univeral attitude in halacha- even if it is widespread. Disgusting as it is, it was a reaction to anti-Semitism- just like jihadism is a reaction to Western success.

The fact is, MOST JEWS WERE POOR in Eastern Europe. The Easter pogroms were directed against Christ Killers, not usurers.

Nobody deserves the Chelminicki massacres. Not everything is our fault. Enough with the guilty Jewish self-flagellation.

[Lev]

Yochanan, I was kidding, of course, hinting on "avrohom", who many posters asked Shmarya to remove him from this blog for good.
To prove your point before Shmarya, etc., find the English translation of Taras Shevchenko poem "Gaidamaky".
Reasons for the butchery-killing of Lyachs(Polish Catholics) and Kikes were the same-different RELIGION.
This things continue in the parts of the world as we speak.
N.B. There were ALWAYS Jewish armed resistance(who would tell about it?).
The only successful concentration camp uprising was in Sobibor because it was guarded mostly by Ukrainians.
Important to notice that the leader of uprising was a Jewish Capitan(JUNIOR officer in the Red Soviet Army), who died in anonimity of City of Rostov in 1990.
I don't remember his name, but isn't he a uniqe Jewish Hero of 20th century?
So Halakha-upset Ukrainian Gentiles could only take care about elderly Bobover Rebbe, his daughters, daughters-in law and other helpless.
Real resistance...
P.S. Thank you for calling me tovarisch, it's krias hakovod.

[Shmarya]

The fact is, MOST JEWS WERE POOR in Eastern Europe. The Easter pogroms were directed against Christ Killers, not usurers.

But the original hatred comes from being the buffer between the landowners and the serfs.

Nobody deserves the Chelminicki massacres. Not everything is our fault.

I said that clearly. But even so, it is important to know the root causes of things. To blame 'Amalek' is insane.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya thinks he can use insults to shut up those who uproot his weak arguments.

Shmarya chooses to ignore several precepts in making his "case".

The Torah says that Amalek will act maliciously against Jews until their utter destruction at the end of days. Shmarya has a problem with that.

It is Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai that Esav in general hates the Jews. Shmarya is not just in LaLa Land but he is a kofer if he disputes that.

Shmarya has completely crossed the line to the point where even his usual supporters are appalled by his absurd assignment of root causes with Ukranian anti-Semites.

Attacks against "Christ-killer" Jews were commonplace in many locations LONG BEFORE the Ukranian Cossacks committed genocide. It's clear that Shmarya is being completely disingenious. He is clever and will use any means to advance his agenda of blaming Jews.

"Looking for Amalek under rocks" as Shmarya likes to put it is proscribed by the Rambam in Sefer Hamitzvos.

As usual, Shmarya doesn't give you all the facts. Early Lita was populated by many pagan tribes and others who were not Slavic.

[Shmarya]

The Torah says that Amalek will act maliciously against Jews until their utter destruction at the end of days. Shmarya has a problem with that.

I have a problem with people claiming that they can identify Amalek today. There is no reliable way to do this. And anyway there happens to be a body of rabbinic thought that holds it is not necessary because, as Amalek mixed with other peoples, its status as Amalek went away.

It is Halacha LeMoshe MiSinai that Esav in general hates the Jews. Shmarya is not just in LaLa Land but he is a kofer if he disputes that.

ROTFLMAO! Really! Halakh l'Moshe miSinai? Please. It is no such thing. And, even if were – and, again, it is not – it would not rise to the level of kefira, heresy, to deny it.

Attacks against "Christ-killer" Jews were commonplace in many locations LONG BEFORE the Ukranian Cossacks committed genocide.

As were good relations between Jews and non-Jews.

My point was that your chronology of antisemitism in Ukraine was flawed, as is your understanding of its causes.

I think those points still stand.

[Anonymous]

We have the text: Amar Rebbi Shimon bar Yochai, Halacha (leMoshe MiSinai), Esav sonei ess Yaakov. While Halacha leMoshe MiSinai is otherwise always along the lines of asay or lo sasay, this is perhaps the only example where we are told a fact.

Shmarya is also mistaken in his understanding of our relations with non-Jews. He cannot bring proof from examples of good relations for three reasons mentioned in the sifrei kodesh.

1) There are Chassidei umos ha'olam (righteous gentiles) who do not bear us ill will.

2) The Sinah does not always rise to the level of murder or violence, especially in a climate of law and order. It can be as low level as a dislike that someone keeps to himself.

3) Even the Sonim are *sometimes* nice to us by virtue of maaseh avos siman lebanim. Esav still grew up in Avraham's and Yitzchak's homes. Although he was a murderer and rapist who tried to put his own brother six feet under, he was still influenced to some degree of good.

[Anonymous]

"I have a problem with people claiming that they can identify Amalek today. There is no reliable way to do this."

There is an ancient tradition that the Germans are Amalek. While ethnic mixing may have diluted them to the point that not all Germans are Amalek, there is no question that the Nazis displayed all the classic traits.

Rav Nosson Adler, the rebbe of the Chasam Sofer killed someone he identified as an Amaleki.

[Shmarya]

1. You quote a gemara but not the Shulkhan Arukh. Why? Might it be that your "halakha l'moshe m'sinai" is not codified as such in the Code of Jewish Law?

2. You might look at the works of Jacob Katz, for example, who shows clearly that Jews and non-Jews had mostly good relations over the centuries.

3. You might also ask yourself why the rabbis of the Mishna felt a strong need to institute decrees (gezerot) to separate Jews and non-Jews. After all, if "Esav" and "Amalek" are so evil, so bad to us, why would it be necessary to keep us out of their homes, inns and theaters?

You see, in actuality, we had generally good relations with non-Jews until the rabbis attempts to crush Christianity failed and Rome became Christian. From that point on, our religious differences became matters of state.

But even with this burden, relations between Jews and non-Jews *generally* were good.

[Shmarya]

There is an ancient tradition that the Germans are Amalek. While ethnic mixing may have diluted them to the point that not all Germans are Amalek, there is no question that the Nazis displayed all the classic traits.

Rav Nosson Adler, the rebbe of the Chasam Sofer killed someone he identified as an Amaleki.

And? That "ancient" tradition – how "ancient"? It wouldn't be basically contemporaneous with the Crusades, now would it?

Even so, there is no way to identify anyone as an Amalekite and no way to kill someone as an Amalekite.

And please refresh my memory on the Nosson Adler story. It wouldn't be similar to the "maharal's" "golem," now would it?

[Shmarya]

Oh! I found your "source" – the Euopean Yated ne'eman, AKA Deiah v'Dibbur:The Chasam Sofer completed the entire Shas as a boy and he asked his rebbe HaRav Nosson Adler zt'l what celebration he should make. His teacher told him to fast with a break over three days. On the third day of the fast he encountered a gentile who wanted to kill him. He raised his hand and delivered a blow to the gentile that felled him dead. (He said at the time that the gentile had been a descendant of Amolek and that in the merit of completing Shas he had been given the opportunity to fulfill the mitzvah of wiping out Amolek. I heard this from Rav Y.M.P. zt'l.)So the story is not truly sourced, the alleged "source" lived hundreds of years after the alleged incident, the story has no historical basis, and is anyway about the Hatam Sofer, not Nosson Adler.

Stellar work, Anonymous.

[Anonymous]

The goyim have tried to destroy us in other ways that appear friendly, like Midyan enticing us with women. This is one good reason why there is a need for decrees to separate us.

So what's Shmarya trying to do now? Do away with the gezayros so he can sip wine with a non-Jewish woman at the corner bar and possibly get *some* for the first time in ages?

[Anonymous]

"we had generally good relations with non-Jews until the rabbis attempts to crush Christianity failed and Rome became Christian"

Shmarya must be sleeping during the "Eleh Ezkerah" on Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av.

After the pagan tyrant peeled off the face of the ultra-handsome Rebbi Yishmael, the Romans made a parade each year mocking the Yaakov Avinu look-alike as a thief who "stole" from Esav.

And it's hard to believe that even Shmarya would make such outrageous statements. As if Jews had great relations with the ancient Romans who sacked Israel and kill our people en masse. What a crock.

Meanwhile, the best Shmarya can do is beat his chest that I may have mixed up the role of two rabbis.

[Anonymous]

There is no steera if the Shulchan Aruch did not bring down the only unusual example of a halacha that works through kochos hanefesh instead of being a practical command.

[Shmarya]

No. Shmarya is merely pointing out that you have made the following incorrect statements:

1. It is a halakha l'moshe m'sinai that Esav hates Jews.

2. That one would be a heretic for not believing this.

3. That Jew-hatred is genetic.

4. That economic and social forces do not account for antisemitism.

5. That special antisemities like descendants of Amalek can be identified by rabbis and that identification can therefore be acted on.

I'm sure you've made more incorrect and simply evil statements but we'll pause here.

[Anonymous]

"relations between Jews and non-Jews *generally* were good."

What a comedian. When Jews were expelled from almost every country they inhabited on Earth, it must have been in a very amicable fashion!

[Shmarya]

There is no steera if the Shulchan Aruch did not bring down the only unusual example of a halacha that works through kochos hanefesh instead of being a practical command.

You are incorrect again. If the Shulkhan Arukh did not cite this as law, it is NOT law. In this case, I believe it is not cited in any other major code as law, including the Rif, the Rosh and the Rambam.

[Anonymous]

"how "ancient"?

The Gemora Megillah says Yaakov Avinu davened that "Germamia shel Edom" should not destroy the Jews. Rav Yaakov Emden says it is a typo and should read "Germania". The tradition has always been that Amalek shel Edom are the Germans.

[Shmarya]

"relations between Jews and non-Jews *generally* were good."

What a comedian. When Jews were expelled from almost every country they
inhabited on Earth, it must have been in a very amicable fashion!

Of course, Jews were NOT expelled from "almost every country they inhabited on Earth." But you would not know that. The sources you so lovingly and obsessively cite are all haredi. And they do not hold up under academic scrutiny.

[Anonymous]

"You are incorrect again."

I guess we all have to take his word for it. Shmarya being the great self-styled arbitrator of Jewish Law - NOT.

[Anonymous]

Official records cited by secular Encyclopedias that Jews were expelled from England, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, etc, etc must be controlled by Chareidim. Wow, what a conspiracy!

[Shmarya]

The Gemora Megillah says Yaakov Avinu davened that "Germamia shel Edom"
should not destroy the Jews. Rav Yaakov Emden says it is a typo and
should read "Germania". The tradition has always been that Amalek shel
Edom are the Germans.

That would only be true if Yakov Emden was correct.

Funny how it is that no one else noticed this until after the Crusades. Also funny how even then pretty much only Yakov Emden makes that connection. Also interesting that Yakov Emden has no source.

And that also assumes that the Talmud – written 2000 years after Amalek – has accurate information about the migration and descent of that tribe.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya, please contain yourself. I know it really gets under your skin when you can't get away saying what you want unchallenged, but saying I'm evil?

[Shmarya]

Official records cited by secular Encyclopedias that Jews were expelled
from England, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, etc, etc must be
controlled by Chareidim. Wow, what a conspiracy!

Really? And we were expelled from Turkey? The Ottoman Empire? Sweden? Denmark? Holland? Italy? Greece? Argentina? Peru?

Please.

And even when we were expelled, the expulsions did not happen in a vacuum.

[Anonymous]

"Also interesting that Yakov Emden has no source."

So we can take for granted that Shmarya took a time machine back centuries and asked Rabbi Emden who verified to him that he has no source? Or is Shmarya going to claim the Rabbi came to him in a revealation?

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, please contain yourself. I know it really gets under your skin when you can't get away saying what you want unchallenged, but saying I'm evil?

Anyone who advocates what you advocate is advocating evil. Of course, with you there is a lot of foolishness thrown in as well.

[Shmarya]

So we can take for granted that Shmarya took a time machine back
centuries and asked Rabbi Emden who verified to him that he has no
source? Or is Shmarya going to claim the Rabbi came to him in a
revealation?

He has no *CITED* source.

[Shmarya]

Which means he has no source.

You see, buddy, when you're talking biblically mandated genocide, you damn well better have a cited source to back you up.

[Anonymous]

General Ulysses S. Grant issued his infamous General Order No. 11, which expelled all Jews from Kentucky, Tennessee and Mississippi.

Jews WERE expelled from Holland that was very intolerant once upon a time and also expelled the Mennonites in 1550 as both the Catholics & Protestants viewed them as heretics.

Jews WERE expelled from various Papal states of the old fractured Italy.

Greece has a long history of anti-Semitism and discriminatory capital punishment reserved for Jews.

Brazil was not the only Latin American land to expel Jews and even carry out the Inquisition.

The fact remains that MOST countries expelled Jews over the millenia.

That won't stop Shmarya from screaming "ha, gotcha" by invoking Nauru and Kiribati.

[Anonymous]

Shmarya is entitled to his opinion but I think most people researching his posts would think HE is the one authoring evil drivel.

[Shmarya]

You're confused. You confuse COLONIES with independent countries. You confuse the acts of EMPIRES with the acts of independent states.

The fact happens to be that Jews were not treated as badly as you claim. But facts, especially in context, are difficult for bigots.

You want to go hunting for Amalekites under every rock? Do it. But do not be surprised when people hunt you in return.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya is entitled to his opinion but I think most people researching his posts would think HE is the one authoring evil drivel.

I encourage everyone reading this to do research and make up your own minds.

[Anonymous]

"The fact happens to be that Jews were not treated as badly as you claim."

It's exactly this untrue fantasy that was espoused by the German Jews before 1933. The Sefer Meiras Einayim says that earlier German Jews made the same mistake, even putting it in a letter to the Jews of Israel, just before the Crusades.

SHmarya then keeps up his old habit of splitting hairs when he's losing the argument. Who cares if it was a monarchy or republic that expelled Jews?

SHmarya is quick to call me a bigot when the majority of his posts bash Jews day in day out.

[Shmarya]

"The fact happens to be that Jews were not treated as badly as you claim."

It's exactly this untrue fantasy that was espoused by the German Jews before 1933. The Sefer Meiras Einayim says that earlier German Jews made the same mistake, even putting it in a letter to the Jews of Israel, just before the Crusades.

1. Again, try looking at actual historical records and data. See jacob Katz, Exclusiveness and Tolerance, for example.

2. Citing rabbinic works that themselves cite legends and have no first hand or documentary evidence is worthless and irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Since Shmarya is the ultimate authority on everything, he wants everyone to take his word for it that scholarly rabbis have no right to record historical data. You see, only secular historians have a right to do that.

Do you hear that ye rabbis of olde? Far eich, das ist verboten.

[Shmarya]

No. I was clear. You are not. I wrote:Citing rabbinic works that themselves cite legends and have no first hand or documentary evidence is worthless and irrelevant.I do not bar rabbis from recoding actual historical data.

[Anonymous]

Ja wohl, Herr Kommandant Shmarya!

The letter from the Jews of the Rhineland was around for a while until it was lost or damaged.

Another concept that is totally foreign to Shmarya is that believers can pass down a tradition for generations from one rabbi to the next and that the integrity of the information remains intact.

By Shmarya's logic, and he is probably heading there soon, is that the Bible itself must be a forgery.

[Dr Fred]

Being treated badly in the past is no excuse for treating others badly in the present.We, as Jews, should either strive to be better than those who abused us or cut the crap and own up to the apparent reality that the higher standards that we proport to live by are just BS.

[Anonymous]

I made no bones about the despicable behavior of the hooker patrons, although I did point out some inaccuracies in the story. When it comes to Charedim, Shmarya's exacting factual standards all of a sudden fly out the window to make them look worse.

[Lev]

Shmarya, I am not arguing RELIGION with you as other posters do, as you know, but Jacob Katz is also a very, even much more questionable source.
He is frequently noted in the rants of the ONE OF THE MOST VICIOUS RUSSIAN PATHOLOGICAL ANTISEMITES(do not exist, according to Lazar) Professor Igor Shfarevich, imah shmoi.
Friend of Lazar congratulated him recently.
Shafarevich is a Full Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, had exellent career, despite being Orthodox Christan, and has no ECONOMIC reason to hate Jews and Judaism.
Well, some of his s---t is translated into English.
Shmarya, I expect your reaction, but if that piece of slime be a Turk, writing about Armenians, he would be rotting in a ground long time ago.

[Shmarya]

The man is perhaps the moist respected historian of the Jewish Middle Ages.

I suppose you would reject the work of Steve Jobs, say, if it turned out David Duke uses a Mac.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shmarya: What books of his would you recommend?

[Alex]

"Since Shmarya is the ultimate authority on everything, he wants everyone to take his word for it that scholarly rabbis have no right to record historical data. You see, only secular historians have a right to do that.

Do you hear that ye rabbis of olde? Far eich, das ist verboten."

Anonymous-> the study of history is supposed to be O-B-J-E-C-T-I-V-E, and orthodox jews FOR DAMN SURE cannot be counted on for objectivity in history.

[Dr Fred]

Alex: One might ask how rabbis can be objective about ( what happened in ) the past, when they ignore what is happening in the present?

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Surely, the unethical pleasure I've experienced seeing the author of this blog wipe the mat with the anonymous commentator over the course of their exchange will require an extra 15, perhaps 30 minutes of davening for forgiveness in the coming weeks. My only hope is that I'll have to increase that time.

[Lev]

Shmarya, I only saying that Jews ARE abused, and it's goes unpunished, partially because of people like Lazar and "Chief Rabbi" of Belarus.
Armenians, btw, have some "peculiarities", Turks accuse them in the same Shafarevich accuses Jews, but Armenians stand for themselvs.

[Shmarya]

Yochanan –

"Exclusiveness and Tolerance" or "The Shabbos Goy," are what I would have recommended but I see he has a new book specifically on European antisemitism, "From Prejudice to Destruction: Anti-Semitism, 1700-1933."

[Anonymous]

"seeing the author of this blog wipe the mat with the anonymous commentator over the course of their exchange"

WHen seen through the JTS / Conservative prism of one of Shmarya's biggest fans. I may be a minority voice here just like Shmarya is considered a fringe lunatic elsewhere.

Then we have Alex shouting from the rooftops about rabbinical bias as if all secular historians are unbiased.

You're all preaching to the choir at Neo-Conservaguy's temple.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Shmarya.

[Alex]

secular historians don't have the ethnocentric view that orthodox jews have that the history of the world revolves around what's best of the jewish people.

Its a nice dream, but it aint reality.

[Lev]

Shmarya, Kostomarov and Lurie lived there, no antisemite ever quoted them.
Khostomarov lived less than 2 cetures after Chmelnitsky.
I didn't read Katz, ain't go to, but does he write about rebellion of Vasko Voschtchilo,(one of many btw)whose slogan was "Destruction of Kike People and DEFENCE of Christianity".
And I waited and waited and still wait whe whether your Anonimous(against the policy of this blog)posters or yourself will REMEMBER that Rules of the Church Fathers till John Christososm(whatever the hell his name)prohibited from the church standing the same Jewish-Gentile interactions.

I just read this article. You people are sick. No really. You are. Only a sick ignoble legalistic low iq piece of human dirt would:
1)think that going to a prostitute is ok if you just dont use a condom.
2)Try to excuse your behavior by inventing lies regarding the victims ancestors.
3)Try to mantain a moral high ground on this while hushing this anonymously over the internet because in any society you would be branded automatically criminal for even attempting to defend this behavior.

Kudos to the few normal individuals here though.