"He Was A Moral Failure" – The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe And The Holocaust

avrohom, a Chabad follower and frequent (and rude) commenter on this blog, continues to insist the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe was a blameless tzaddik, a fount of perfection who never erred and who certainly never opposed Holocaust rescue.

Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

Bryan Mark Rigg on the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, Joseph Isaac Schneersohn:

…[T]he Rebbe [Joseph Isaac Schneersohn] of course wanted to escape Europe and had his movement employ every means, even approaching the Secretary of State, to get him out, but when he was here in the US, he did not approach those very same people to help rescue those who had to remain in Europe. However, he did approach those people in the government to rescue his library, which he did get out in 1941. Are books more important than people? Some of the books were secular like Dante's Inferno and books on Communism. This is a sad part of the history of the Rebbe. Also he started [publicly] condemning people who were organizing amazing rescue efforts like rabbis Kotler and Kalmanowitz of the Vad-Haatzala.

He claimed they and Reform and Kofrim Jews were causing the Holocaust with their non-Kosher ways. Yet, we see that Kotler and Kalmanowitz helped rescue up to 100,000 people with the War Refugee Board. The Rebbe felt they were unnecessarily compromising their religious integrity by meeting with politicians on the Sabbath and secular and reform leaders. So the Rebbe made mistakes and according to Chancellor or Yeshiva University, Norman Lamm, he committed blasphemy by claiming God was punishing the Jews for their sins with the Holocaust. He claims this is a desecration of God's name (Menachem Mendel Schneerson also said that saying such a thing is a desecration of God's name without mentioning his father-in-law). These facts and many more show how much Chabad does to ignore unpleasant facts about their history. They just claim that when people write such things, they are jealous of their movement, do not understand their people or on a political campaign to smear them. Very weak arguments and signs of inferiority complexes. So basically this story shows that instead of pointing fingers, we need to act and make a difference. Small minds blame others; big ones blame themselves and then seek out action to make the situation better.

What people wanted was a hero of the Jewish people fighting for their rights. Instead, the Rebbe just thought of himself and his movement and condemned others. He was not helping the problem, but creating more. He should have worked with Kotler and Kalmanowitz, or at least have tried to, instead of [publicly] condemning them and a host of others.

And this:

…Now to Kotler and Kalmanowitz--They took help from everywhere they could. Kotler was appalled by the Rebbe's focus on the Messiah and his spiritual campaign, especially throughout 1942-1943 when all energy should have been focused on rescuing lives. So, Kotler and Kalmanowitz would have gladly received help from the Rebbe, but such help never came from the Rebbe. He only condemned them for their un-kosher ways. For the record, I wanted to find the Rebbe acting like Kotler and Kalmanowitz. That would have been a beautiful conclusion to the story. Rabbi Weisfogel, who was Kalmanowitz's assistant, said of the Rebbe "He was a moral failure at this time to condemn us and the Jewish people as a whole for the Holocaust when he in turn did hardly anything except rescue his books and few [close] students' lives."

For the record, if I was a business man, as many Lubavitchers encouraged me to be, I would not have mentioned his dealings in the US after his rescue. As one Lubavitcher at 770 told me "If you do this, you will get thousands of dollars and go all over the Chabad world and give talks." Yes, I said, but that is not the truth. To this, he was silent.

And we also have one entire chapter of his book, Rescued From The Reich, that deals with the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe's behavior once he reached America. (This is the part of the book Rigg meant when he wrote, "if I was a business man, as many Lubavitchers encouraged me to be, I would not have mentioned his dealings in the US after his rescue.") That behavior included telling people, both through his 'newspaper,' HaKriah v'HaKedushah, and through other writings that those people collecting money on Shabbos to save lives were wrong, were delaying the "redemption," were causing more Jews to die, etc. Those "people" doing that on Shabbos were the rabbis and laypeople of the Va'ad Hatzalah, and they rescued thousands of Jews.

The 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe started his own "Pidyon Shvuyim Fund" to compete with the Va'ad Hatzalah. What did Joseph Isaac Schneerson do with the money he raised? A large chunk of it went to open his Brooklyn yeshiva. Yes, that is correct – the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe took money meant for rescue, meant to save Jews from the Holocaust, and instead opened a Brooklyn yeshiva with it.

And, if that is not enough, the 'Grand Rabbi' of Lubavitch started a 'moshiach campaign.' Why? Because he believed only the coming of the messiah would end the Holocaust and all efforts on the ground – like those of the Va'ad Hatzalah – would be futile.

The Va'ad Hatzalah's efforts led to the creation of the War Refugee Board. So, along with the thousands saved directly by the Va'ad Hatzalah, another 100,000 to 200,000 Jews were saved indirectly through the War Refugee Board. And, yes, the great 'tzaddik' of Lubavitch thought the War Refugee Board was a futile endeavor, as well.

And let us not forget that the great 'tzaddik' of Lubavitch was also an ardent anti-Zionist who urged Jews to stay in Europe. Here is a copy of the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe's anti-Zionist letter circulated throughout Europe. His son, the future 6th rebbe, was head of the Lubavitch Yeshiva at that time. He fully endorsed his father's anti-Zionism and issued anti-Zionist tracts of his own. More on those sometime in the not too distant future.

UPDATE – In March 2005 I wrote the following:

When I spoke with Barry Gourary [the only grandchild of the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe; the teenage Barry was rescued together with his grandfather, grandmother and his parents in the rescue described in Rigg's book] three months ago, I asked him about the Holocaust and his grandfather and father's reaction to it. Barry thought both did eveything possible to rescue Jews, although he had no proof or information to back up that belief. He told me his father backed Rebbe Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn's moshiach campaign – done in instead of rescue – because "my father was a chassid of my grandfather."

Barry was very precise in his answers: "I do not know." "I do not remember." "I do not think so." Or specific answers with specific details. His answers seemed completely credible and were given freely.

Sadly, the fact that his belief that the RAYATZ, etc. did everything they could to rescue Jews was nothing more than a belief – he had no facts, no documents, not even any stories to support it – says volumes about the failings of Lubavitch leadership during WW2.

One can also see that Chabad had no significant presence at the now-famous "Rabbis' March" on Washington. No senior Lubavitch rabbi attended. The march – created by Hillel Kook [a.k.a. Peter Bergson] and promoted by the Va'ad Hatzalah and Agudas HaRabbonim – brought the formation of the War Refugee Board which saved 200,000 Jews during the last years of the Holocaust.

Comments

[malachhamovies]

Shmayra,

On another point, have you ever heard the rumors (as i have) that Rabbi Kotler refused to give financial support to the lubavitcher bachurim in shanghai ??

Thanks.

[avrohom]

You still have not back with a source for your LIES. THe Rebbe never told people not to give money to other groups. Your other hero Rigg is also far from a tzadik. He construes things from his subjective mind when they do not portrary reality. I want you to give a page in the book of the REbbe where he says not to give money on shabbos to save jews. I will not go on your game here; i want you to give exact paging in the *rebbes 8book (not in the fantasy mind of rig and scotty and other jews haters).

NOw: wrt to excoriating tzadikim; you will have topay the price:

you bah tzadikim; but YOUR HEROES SENT 1/2 A MILLION TO THE GAS CHAMBERS (Kastner) and you hail them. And notonlycharacterslike yourself are so vile and despicable that they don't only "give it a rest" but they are such lowlifes that they will defend SS OFFICCERS THAT IS WHAT SCOTTY THE ANTISEMITE DID HERE A FEW WEEKS AGO. He will bash aynbody that is obsevant (jusrt take a ook at this subhuman's articles the past year) and any practice that is jewish.

He lauded the expulsion of 9,000 Jews, wants to do away with brit milAH AND WILL DEFEND AN ss OFFICCER!

He started to become like that when he stated speaking against Tzadikim who sacrificed their lives to save Jewry. THe reason why Russia and many places in the world have their Judaism is due to simple self sacrfice that a tzadik like the FR had. And his successor the Lubavticher REbbe infused judaism in every corner of the world an every earea in jewish lfie. Ironincally, the little yiddishkeyt that antisemite scotty still has is due to theLR efforts to reach to every jew. IF one could speak at tzadikim about mistakes (whichobvousl one cannot s[eak of in the same level as non tzadikim) one would say: that Scotty should have not been given a chance tobe connected withjudaism for he became one of it's vicious and pernicious enemy.

Scotty, go on and defend Becher!!!

[Shmarya]

MM –

The money was used first for rescue. The available documents show the 6th Rebbe wanted money for other purposes and wanted that money disproportionately for his own people.

avrohom –

Your reading comp skills are quite poor whule your ability to believe in fantasy is quite high.

Either read the source or shut up. The entire chapter shows that the 6th Rebbe PUBLICLY and VOCIFEROUSLY opposed what the Va'ad Hatzoloh was doing. Read it.

[ignorescotty]

Avrohom you are 100% right. However, every time you engage this sick and sad Scotty in debate, you are giving him the attention he craves and does not deserve (for that matter, Rigg the Pigg was also out looking for attention which he got only from the Scottys of this world). These lowlives are tiny, so they try to attack giants as if they can bring the greatest down to their subterranean level.

Just ignore Scotty. When he gets his comeuppance from shamayim, he will be screaming for help to every charedi social service agency there ever was or will be. And he will use the very mouthstick or voice recognition software he gets from a bikur cholim group to type more and more of his attacks and shtus.

And one day after he suffers a nice portion of gehennom on earth, the real Gehennom will open wide to welcome him.

[Shmarya]

I see the true legacy of Lubavitch lives on.

[Yos]

Blessed art Thou, HaShem, Who has not made me blind of intellect as the tzaddik worshippers.

[SS]

see

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=14371

Can ABe Foxman get away with calling a non-Jewish woman a shiksa??

[Ma Rabbi]

Shmarya,
If you want to contend that the previous Rebbe said not to give money to the rescue effort, then the BURDEN of PROOF is on YOU. Quoting Brian Riggs is NOT proof. You have to find a source in the Rebbes writings. You will not find such a Quote because he never said it. Either find a source or apologize for defaming the Rebbe.

[Ma Rabbi]

Moreover, I have a collection of the talks that the Previous Rebbe gave between 1941-45. He talks about the horrors of the war, and the Jews trapped in Europe, and he calls upon American Jews to do"Everything possible to save them."

[Shmarya]

As always, you read poorly and comprehend even less.

The Rayyatz did everything Rigg notes above and what I noted, as well.

The sources are brought in Rigg's book. Most of them are, as I cited, from HaKriah v'HaKedushah, the Rayatz's own 'newspaper.'

That this issue has been dealt with by historians, written about and documented clearly escapes you.

[Shmarya]

Moreover, I have a collection of the talks that the Previous Rebbe gave between 1941-45. He talks about the horrors of the war, and the Jews trapped in Europe, and he calls upon American Jews to do"Everything possible to save them."

1. That is false.

2. His call to do everything was couched, especially from 1942 onward, in SPIRITUAL terms. He was NOT speaking of rescue as we understand it.

3. He opened a competing rescue fund, his Pidyon Shvuyim Fund, meant to compete with the Va'ad Hatzalah. He used a large portion of the money he raised to open his Brooklyn Yeshiva, NOT to rescue Jews. Process that.

[Ma Rabbi]

As usual when you are in the wrong you revert to babyish insults. If you or Riggs has a source in "Hakriah" where he says not to give money to the rescue effort, then CITE IT. I say there is no such source.

[Hakria V'Hakedusho]

See link to Hebrew Books for PDF's of the journal.

[Shmarya]

He very clearly says the Va'ad Hatzalah is wrong, that they are delaying the Redemption, and that they are acting against God's will.

What follower of his would fund and organization like that?

Further, that organization was actually saving lives on the ground while the Lubavitcher Rebbe was not.

And, again, we have the matter of the Pidyon Shvuyim Fund he set up. A large chunck of that money went to his Brooklyn yeshiva, not to rescue.

[yos]

If Rigg's is wrong, what is the truth? Did the Rebbe stoop and associate with evil Kofrim to help with a rescue... but kept it a secret?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

And one day after he suffers a nice portion of gehennom on earth, the real Gehennom will open wide to welcome him.

Don't you have a dead Messiah to worship? It is Sunday after all.

[avrohom]

scotty,

The fact is that you and Rigg cannot find a source that says that the REbbe told others not to give a group that is saving Jews. You know it. You are an immoral person. Don't give the Rigg book. Rigg cannot bring a source from the rebbe's books because there IS NO SUCH SOURCE. Now: the info he got is so subjective and there may be things that are unkown to you and to Rigg (not even to slovakian and chinese archives) that they got information from one sided people. Most people who knew what is happening and were unbiased never opened the mouth in any shape or form as you do in such an immoral way. Even where the did align with thepeople in the other group. Why? because the knew that there are sides. You cleverly write after 1942 knowingly that earlier there were effots, but due to the tensions in working it out...he might have decided that the success of the issue is better served by not creating an open fight over the mode and efforts...and perhaps at that time he tried doing things secretly....when you speak of opening up another fund...you know that it might have been prior to 42 when there genuine efforts but after the debacle he might have decided that for the success of the issue it is better to leave it the way it was...but he NEVER said or wrote that no efforts should be done to save jews...YOU ARE A SIMPLE PATHOLOGICAL SICK LIAR LOVER ANIMALS AND SS OFFICERS AND HATER OF TZADIKIM!

Now, do you or Rigg know if there effrots to save people unbeknown to you. You never ever mention that there were efforts to save some Rebbe's and their families and they were successful. These were efforts where the other side was not placing their efforts.

Those who know inside, know that the Rebbe in those years, despite being paralyzed and extremely ill, could simply not stand the news that came from Europe and once after hearing the news in europe literally fainted... at times they saw literally a pool of tears....but this does not matter to scotty, a man who is devoid of love for jews...his love is for bashing anything jewish....he did nothing during the war in lebanon...he lauded the expulsion of 9,000 jews....he defends SS iofficcers and wants to abolish briss milah as we know it....

to reiterate the subject here: Yoou ARE A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR. You have no proof for stating the REbbe told not to give to others who are saving jewqs....Nothing in the sources of the Rebbe.

But you piece of vermin, "YITOSH KODOMOCH" WHO HAVE THE TEMERITY TO JUDGE TZADIKIM SHOULD INSTEAD SPEND TIME TO JUDGE PEOPLE WHO WERE PLACED IN TRUST TO SAVE THE JJEWS AND WERE PARTOF THE DIABOLIC PLAN TO SILENCE A HALF A MILLION JEWS AND SEND THEM TO OVENS...THIS IS FROM YOUR SECULAR "HUMANISITC" FRIENDS WHO SELL THEMSELVES TO THE SATAN AND HE HAS A GOOD PUPIL WHO FOLLOWS HIS FOOTSTEPS AND WANTS TO DISENGAGE PEOPLE FROM THEIR JEWISH HERITAGE AND LEAD THEM ASTRAY IT WOULD BE AT LEAST HONEST IF HE MAKES A DISCLAIMER IN EVERY ARTICLE THAT HE WRITES THAT HE DOES NOT BELEIVE IN HASHE, ELOKEY YISROEL "AS WE KNOW IT"...

[pushkina]

Um, I have that book, Rescued From the Reich, (it upstairs right now but I will fetch it later if need be) and one of the most interesting things about the book is that it is very well sourced. Translation for those who are not research minded: Rigg carefully cites in his extensive footnotes from where his information came. He cites very credible archival sources, such as the archives of the US State Department, letters and memoirs of folks alive at the time who had dealings with the 6th L rabbi, and other such convincing sources.

When I read it, I was quite stricken by the fact that the Rayatz was more interested in the safety of his library rather than those of his court, including his closest relatives, i.e. his daughters and thier husbands. This of course is somewhat understandable: while there were many historical examples of reasons to believe that the Nazis would burn books there was no reason to believe that they would create killing factories for the destruction of entire peoples because no one until that time had ever done so.

It is against G-d's Law,(as I was taught) to believe that any human being is perfect or a fount of perfection. I recall that even the 36 Righteous Ones are human and capable of fault and sin, even though the world's existence depends on their goodness. Ribbonim are human; they are not angels; they are not extensions of G-d on earth. Therefore, to cite the imperfections of the Rayatz (or any other rabbi) is not a crime aginst the Jewish People; rather, it is a chance to teach that good and evil, the yetsir ha tov and the yetsir ha ra coexist in every human being, even one so extolled as the Rayatz or the last Rebbe.

I would though maintain that calling others pathological liars (and other even worse things) would fall under the categories of forbidden speech, so eloquently put forth by the Chofetz Chaim. I would also like to point out that just as Avrohom accuses Prof. Rigg and Shmarya of not being privy to all unknown things, the same holds true for Avrohom: understand that there are things, knowledge, events, conversations that were / are secret to you too. Only the Master of Heaven and Earth knows all.

To the writer who declared that one would never find such a quote from the Rayatz (re: the rescue of europe's jews) remember that this is a tactic used by the servants of Holocaust denial: No one will ever find such a quote of a direct order from hitler to eradicate the jews, because none such quote exists. so does that mean that hitler wasn't the human catalyst of the Shoah? does that mean that we (and the rest of the world and history itself) should excuse him of it, simply because there is no direct quote? No, of course not. As humans with the gift of understanding and questioning and seeking knowledge, we know who was the human catalyst of the Shoah by the ACTIONS he set afoot. The ACTIONS of the Rayatz (his pre-occupations with other things rather than the vociferous defense of the jewish people in their most dire hour of need) point to a sad conclusion and speak as loudly as other actions of others in other times.

or as it is said in the law (small l law): Res ipsa loquitur ("The thing speaks for itself.")

[Henry]

Hey Avrohom!
Your posts are such cute drivel that despite them being nonsensical and pointless have a kinda cute quality.Something like a little kid having a tantrum when he is told to go to bed and he demands to be allowed to stay up because he is 'big'.
Keep it up.

[Fleishike Kishke]

Arguing with Schneersonics is pointless. The fraud Menachem Mendel Schneerson left behind a band of feeble-minded idiots. They cannot see logic and rationality even when it's broken down for them. A tribe of mostly ignorant often illiterate brain-washed coercive schnoorers is his true legacy. When they get angry, especially for dismissing their pathetic anointed one, they get belligerent and violent.

[avrohom]

pushkina,

you like many other readers of this blog are plagued with the cotagious disease by the owner of this blog, which causes you notcpmprehend simple things.

Like saying "Rigg is so big and has aources and blah blahblah" and yet when pressed to the wall: where is the Rebbe recorded as saying what you claim he said? None of you can pick one source in the writings of the REbbe.

Yoranalogy to hitler yms"H is childish and infantile and despicable whichis one of diseases the owner of the blog has shared with his members,

one The human lesson tht should belearnt from the mistakes of holocaust is that bein "humanistic" does not save from being a beast and you can think that you will save so many people and you will become apartner with the satan but at the end you sell your soul to him and you SEND 1/2 MILLION JWS TO THE GAS CHAMBERS!

and then you laud the expulsion of 9,000 jews and you defend SS officers!

[Shmarya]

avrohom –

Again, for the umpteenth time, Rigg cites extensive sources in his book, especially in the chapter on the Rebbe in America. Most of those sources are from HaKriah v'HaKedushah.

You could try reading Rigg's book, including his footnotes.

Even a simple child reading Rigg's comments posted above understands that the Rayyatz did not support the Va'ad Hatzalah and in fact worked against it.

Detailed source citations are in Rigg's book.

You can also see Barry Gourary's take on all this and more added to this post in an update.

Or you can keep doing what you have been doing for a very long time – closing your eyes and trying to wish the truth away.

[Alex]

"and then you laud the expulsion of 9,000 jews and you defend SS officers!"

Avrohom, dude, GET A NEW SLOGAN!!!

[pushkina]

avrohom,

say whatever you will but please DO NOT QUOTE ME AS SUPPORTING SS Officers, do not include me in the approval of the expulsions of 9,000 jews from gaza and do not liken anything i believe or do as a willingness to sell my soul to the devil (i think he has his hands full with yours already). what i wrote in response to YOU was written originally with respect, politeness and halachic correctness as per the teachings of the chofetz chaim on lashon ha ra.

but now i say that you are a truly poisoned individual and a danger to society in general and the jewish world in particular. do you have a job? if not, perhaps you need to get one, if oly so that you will not have time enough to harass those of us who wish to discuss freely whatever we wish in peace.

[avrohom]

scotty,

for the umpteenth time: *YOU* MADE A REPEATED CHARGE THAT the REbbe told people not to give to the other fund. You did not cite ONE source for you defamation. *you* are despicable man.

Rigg is not an original source.

BTw: i read portions of Rigg, did not impress me much on this issue. Because he projects his imaginations and he does not have *one* person from the Rebbe's side to portray what happened and what did happen. He has a lot of youngsters but no one from this side who can give you the REbbe's perspective correctly.

I never said the REbbe worked for the Vaad Hatzalah. I was telling you that there details that are missing from you and Rigg and therefore you cannot judge based on those missing pieces. The missing pieces are much more than the Slovakian and Chinese archives.

You state that he worked "Against* Vaad Hatzalah. Source for this defamtion. I beleive i read Rigg and even he (who as said is misisng many bolts nad screws did not make this charge).

In any event: The Rebbe has the benefit of doubt any day over the missing information for he was a tzadik who sacrificed his life to save Judaism in Russia aginst the yevsetktia and what have you...and to tell you the truth: *This* is the reason you cannot stand the Rebbe: because you hate anything and everything Jewish. That a person gave away his own life to be arrested by the Yevsektzia is something that is beyond you animal love culture...something beyond you culture of lauding the expulsion of 9,000 jews...something your culture of Defending SS officers!

[Shmarya]

You state that he worked "Against* Vaad Hatzalah. Source for this defamtion.

I really think you need some type of clinical help.

1. The Rebbe told people that the activities of the Va'ad HaTzalah were wrong. No one denies this.

2. The Rebbe set up a competeing rescue fund. No one denies this.

3. The Rebbe rescued almost no one. No one denies this.

4. The Va'ad Hatzalah rescued thousands. No one denies this.

5. The rebbe used a portion of the money he raised for rescue to open his Brooklyn Yeshiva. He did this during the war, during the Holocaust.

The Rebbe has the benefit of doubt any day over the missing information for he was a tzadik who sacrificed his life to save Judaism in Russia

So the Rebbe always has the "benefit of the doubt" over those who expose his crimes?

So much for any shred of honesty you can lay claim to.

[Shmarya]

I forgot to add the allegation of theft from JDC funds by the 6th Rebbe while he was "sacrificing his life" for Jews in Russia.

But of course the Rebbe alyas has the "benefit of the doubt."

[avrohom]

1- Where is it recorded in tthe sources? Actually I saw one to the contrary. and if he criticized one aspect this does not mean that he critcized everything they did.

2- That was earlier on i believe. And why would two organizations mean that the activites of the other is unworthy?

3- His efforts helped some Rebbe's families get out (Belz and other dinaties). You are compleptely unaware of this. They actually thanked the REbbe for his efforts.

And yes the REbbe always has the benefitt of the doubt over a vermin like you scotty and others who would like to see the Rebbe rot in prison by the Russians and so those who would like to see nothing of judaism left in Russia.

I would take the ahavas yisroel of the REbbe who as an 11 years old went to prison for defending a Jew who was beaten by goy...over a vermin like you who would help the SS officer beat the observant jew for him being an observant jew (and youu would already find your allegation ont he obsrevant jew... all crimes that you the erev rav put on all observant jews whjen your humanistic frends have the same or worse crimes and are all devoid of Hashem ELokey Yisroel...I would any day and night have the Rebbe's concern for Yidden and Yiddishkeyt (and as i said: during the war they came to the rebbe's office filled with teras and he could not stop smoking ciggarettes due to the news from europe) iover your venomous hatred for a Yid, Miloh, Shchitah, Limud Hatorah, TOrah She BAal PEh and most importantly ATOH BECHARTANOOH but don't worry "Why do they have many babies" so that scotty and his company will not know what hit him ...and wher eto start from wehen you have thousands of jewish kinderlech saying brochos and Asher Kidshano Bemitzvotav and Scotty says "Blessed ar eThou the idol of scecularism who created the Failed Scotty to sprout venom at Jewish people"

and remember: WE beleive in a Jewish fate and destiny. Look at all those dinaties that flopusihed since the War. Lubavtich has overcome since the few seeds of the FR and the REbbe enemies like you ten times over...we don't need your approaval and in sptie of you anf to spite you we will have more and more babies...and Hashem' providence will ensure that you stay with your stupid blog and bury yourself with your failure....while they will have more babies and thousands of yeshivas and shuls will make you worthless and obsolote...

[Shmarya]

1. HaKriah v'Hakedushah

2. Same, where he ran advertisements to raise funds. And no, it was not "earlier."

3. That would be 2 rebbes and the help in one of those cases was very partial. The Va'ad Hatzalah saved THOUSANDS.

[Dr Fred]

avrohom:Truth is not a numbers game.God guarantees Jewish existence and the Jewish destiny. We all do what we can, but those who preface their shenanigans with "If it were not for us..." are a sleasy bunch indeed.

[avrohom]

1- no page that i can check as usual,

2- same

3- Maybe more than one house. But the saving of these rebbes ensrued the saving of THOUSANDS OF THEIR HOUSES REBUILT! and certinly he suceeded in saving the Rebbe (unfortunately could not save the tird son in law) who in turn saved LITERALLY THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF JEWS back to judaism and is the responible leader for infusing judaism and Hashem Elokey Yisroel and Elokey Hooolom in the whole world.

At the end there is no source that he told others not to give to the fund (when i saw to the contrary) and did not "fight" the other fund. You spoke with some people who were zelaots from the other funds. But if you would talk to more moderate people from both sides you would see that they would not talk your animal talk and they have the temerity to ascribe such actions as you did to the Rebbe.

[avrohom]

yes, truth is not a numbers game. THAT is why despite Torah observance and Torah light as had been experinced for thousands of years has for the past hundreds of years reached a low level, yet since "truth is not a numbers game" and truth prevails that is why G-d's destiny has made it so that thousands and thousands of jews understand and feel that there is no othe way to connect with Hashem Elokey Yisroel unless through TOrah and through TOrah without reformations and conservations and but through the real thing... the old tfillin tzitzis shabbos kashrut and taharat hamishpacha and brit and schitah AS WE KNEW IT! that is the link between jJews and G-d and that is what brings spirituality into the world etc etc and of course it is not important to mention "if not for us..." in general ; but when subhman animal and immoralpeople have it in their blood to attack tzadikim and people whose life were devoted and sacrificed for selflesslessness and to help others and to bring the message of G-d into this world it is IMPERATIVE to say it as it is!

[Dr Fred]

Avrohom, I love you; you're my Galitzianer moment, you little kishka!

[Shmarya]

avrohom –

either get the book and read the chapter and the footnotes or shut up.

And more "moderate" people from both sides have nothing much good to say about the Rayyatz under any circumstances. As a close relative of a rabbi then close to Lubavitch told me recently, "My ____ said there isn't much you can believe that [Rabbi Joseph Isaac Schneerson] said. I think everything the man wrote as history is a lie." And that, avrohom, is from a rabbi you would consider a FRIEND of Lubavitch.

[avrohom]

scotty little blind ansemitic erev rav:

1- give me a specific source in the *original* of the REbbe so i can call your luff and lies.

2- i am not talking about the historiity of the writings i am talking about the reverence to the man. You know nothing but nothing about how the moderates of the times held in highest esteem adn reverenc he person of the Tzadikthe FR.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Avrohom:

You've finally convinced me to buy Rigg's book. I will, bli neder, check his sources and see if the sources say what Shmarya says they do.

Shmarya:

You owe Avrohom a thank you. For all this time you've been urging me to buy and read Rigg. Finally, Avrohom's hectoring has moved me to purchase it and see if it says what you say it does.

[Edious]

Lawrence, you’re making as if there is a possibility that his claims have any truth to it.
Between me you and the lamppost you know it’s a load of garbage.

[Shmarya]

Funny. If they were not true, you expect a scholarly refutation to have been published – but there is none, as far as I know.

even here, none of you have refuted anything. You simply deny what I write is true. You make the assertion that I'm wrong, but do not cite any sources to prove me wrong.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Edious:

I don't know anything unless I've checked it out for myself, or someone on whom I rely has checked it out before me. That doesn't mean Shmarya, it doesn't mean Avrohom, and it doesn't mean you. Believe me, I have had my experiences with books and articles that were well-footnoted. After I checked the footnotes, I noticed they didn't support the arguments made.

I'm not saying that everything Shmarya says Rigg says is true. I'm not saying that everything Shmarya says that Rigg has documented is really docuemented. I'm not even saying that everything Shmarya said Rigg said, he actually said. ("I never said all the things I said" Yogi Berra). However, between Shmarya's repetitive assertions (without quoting any of Rigg's sources from the original to back it up), and Avrohom's constant refrain "Rigg isn't a source" without documenting that Rigg manufactured his sources, misquoted them, or altered in some way, and your assertion that "it’s a load of garbage," I'm just curious enough to do my own reading, my own research, and my own deciding. At this point, my mind is decidedly open.

[Henry]

Shmarya
If I did not know Lubab inc. well enough I would think that Avrohom is a straw man set up to make Lubab look bad.Alas, Avrohom is a classic example of a Lubavitcher, not a very brainwashed one, btw,the brainwashed ones are much worse.
Anyway,Avromaleh dear:The facts are very clear and undisputed about the Vaad Hatzolah, they saved and sustained thousands.Can you tell me what Lubavitch did??Forget Brigg for a sec,just tell me what Lubavitch did!
Almost nothing.
Ok,now understand the Previous Rebbe was very ill, I have no problem with him not being able to do much, being infirm and himself a refugee.But why in heaven can't Lubab acknowledge(and help)others that can and did do???
(And aren't they ashamed of mentioning the efforts and money etc to save a library while Jews burned in Warsaw?)

How can anyone dwell on this subject? The sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe was incarcerated, brutally tortured, and was miracoulosly rescued by American Politicians. Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn was pretty much in permanent pain for the rest of his life after the brutal treatment he recieved by the Stalinist authorities in the U.S.S.R. Please, show some respect; Heaven forbid anyone of us is subject to such treatment ever.

[avi]

Lawrence,

We all know Shmarya's tactics.

First he makes an outrageous statement based on innuendo etc.

Then he finds some flack or opportunist to support what he claims.

We then get into the same cycle where even if pinned or refuted, Shmarya denies truth or reason and adheres to his claims like a rabid dog.

This whole topic is a rehash ( Slow Day?)

In the previous rehash Shmarya claimed that no one attended the famous march in Washington. When it was revealed that Rabbi S. Gurary attended, he still failed to acknowledge the fact.

Much of what the FR did was in secrecy. This is a known fact.

We will probably never know the extent that that FR helped. At the same time no one is denying or diminishing what the Vaad did.

Regards,

Avi

I think this is from 1932. I know that there are more references in later years.

דף הבית > ספרי כ"ק אדמו"ר מוהריי"צ נ"ע > ספר השיחות > תרפ"ח-תרצ"א > מבוא > השבועות האחרונים בארצות הברית. חגיגת יב­יג תמוז. הפגישה עם נשיא ארצות הברית > 71

בשעה 00.12 לילה נסע רבינו לוואשינגטאן, לשם הגיע בשעה 00.7 בבוקר דיום ה', י"ד תמוז. בשעות האחה"צ נפגש רבינו עם נשיא ארה"ב הואווער. הביקור הי' להודות לנשיא עבור החופש שארה"ב נותנת לבני ישראל, ועבור הענין שמגלה הממשלה במצב היהודים מעבר לים.

http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/maharyatz/sichos/688-91/3/22/71&search=%d7%9e%d7%a2%d7%91%d7%a8

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Avi:

I'm not defending what Shmarya says or does; I know his biases and slants. I also those of most Chabadniks. All I said was that rather than take anything on faith, I'll see what Rigg says, see if his sources hold up, and make my own decisions. However, you're not helping much, and let me explain why:

You write, "In the previous rehash Shmarya claimed that no one attended the famous march in Washington. When it was revealed that Rabbi S. Gurary attended, he still failed to acknowledge the fact." He stated, not without basis, that the Gurary who attended was not Rashag but a younger man, Rabbi S.Z. Gurary. Now that's one man; compare that to rabbonim like Rav Silver, Rav Kalmanovitz who attended. There were prominent Chabad rabbis in America at the time. Where were they?

"Much of what the FR did was in secrecy. This is a known fact." If it was in secrecy, then it's not known, and vice versa. If what he did then was secret and is now in the open, tell us. If it's still secret, then please don't expect us to accept on faith what you claim to know that can't be verified.

"We will probably never know the extent that that FR helped. At the same time no one is denying or diminishing what the Vaad did." I will try to reach my own conclusions based on what I read and am capable of understanding. Shmarya (and anyone else who reads this blog) can tell you I don't take what he says on faith, and I have disagreed with him in the past, sometimes vociferously. But once gain, let me say that Shmarya's refrain of "Rigg" and the answering refrain of "Rigg is not evidence" leads me to want to read him. Shmarya has urged me in private e-mails to read the book. I don't think he is so cynical as to assume that I am too ignorant to check Rigg's sources for their content.

It will take some time before I get the book, read it, and do the attendant research. Until then, anything I say on the topic is just reacting to the arguments of others.

[Shmarya]

Lawrence,

I appreciate your pointing this out. But Avi is a Chabadnik. He's also regularly untruthful. He does not care about the truth and he probably never will.

[avi]

Lawrence:

“Now that's one man”. If you read that thread, I believe, there were others mentioned and many other points of merit. But that’s not the point. The point is that whatever proof positive that one brings, is never sufficient and dismissed by the bias and perverted agenda of the owner of this blog.

Shmarya,

Unfortunately you are too small to acknowledge the many times I have cited actual references and refuted your outrageous remarks. My previous post is an example.

It states that the FR met with the President concerning the welfare of the Jews in Europe.
( not his library and not his Yeshiva) As I said, I hope to bring later references.

You have slandered and lied too many times to profess to know truth.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

With all due respect, the Freirdiker Rebbe did not meet with the president, not Rossevelt, not Truman.

You don't refute things Avi – you fantasize.

[avrohom]

Lawrence,
Please find a source that says the FR said not to give to VH. And if you find that find the source in the original and see if that matches the LIES THAT THE EREV RAV is spreading.

And i would appreciate if you find in the works someone who was ALIVE at the time from the perspective of chabad to tell their version of the story. BEcuase I do know there are many haters in the other side of the story, who are more haters of L than the hater in L who hate the other party!I heard their hatred 27 years ago and it is still reeling in mind. ON the other hand I do know that people who respect both sides would stand in awe to speak of a Tzadik who was beaten and tortured to death by the erev rav's friends...There were issues that were badly mishandled. Perhaps if they were handled properly at the outset there would be double work on this area.

But in any event: I must say that the anyone here who respects the erev rav should prepare to do more teshuva as elul is coming. THis despicable animal who loathes any observant jew and will laud trhe expulsion of Jews 9,000 jews in the recent past and will crticize settlers no matter what and this animal did notprotest the brutal animalisitc sadistic approach by the police in amona, and this animal defended SS officer! and his whole energyis to badmouth anything jewish and would like to do away with anything jewish like schitah briss miloh (maybe the mohel did not good job there) and other areas of torah shows that anyone who supports this animal and does not protest his animalistic antisemitic rampages in a PARTNER WITH HIM!

[avrohom]

henry,

although i do notknow you peronally (virtually) you do not sound honest and interested in some truth finding.

You care what lubavitch says or does not say 65 years later. DoesL claim in headlines what they did or did not do.

Now if you wantsome soul searching and if you beong to some relgious gropus: ask fromyourselfand leaders a little closer home and time: What did these leaders do in the past 20 and ten years to stop Hamastan?? WOrse: what part did they play in helping hamastan happen. After you will answer me aout this, wewill talk about L saying in the headlines what they did not do (or why they were stonewalled from doing) 65 years ago. ahaving a broken person coming from the tortured russia and building yiddishkeyt in america!

Why they do not acknolwedge. It does not come in their conversations. IT brings some bitter memories and more...

But you stand here in apublic forum when a wicked animal claims that the FR told other not to give money to save jews and you are quiet to this charge agreeing with this. WSho is the "brainwahsed" or filled hate? Comeclean protest the defamation of a Tzadik ho built yiddishkeyt in Russia and then America and then we will talk about L not acknowledging others.

[avi]

Shmarya,

“With all due respect, the Freirdiker Rebbe did not meet with the president, not Rossevelt, not Truman.”

It says he met with Hoover!

This is just ONE letter:

Igrois Koidesh – Admur MaHarayatz ( Volume 13 - Kehot Publications)

Letter 4,816 Erev Pesach 1941
6) Concerning the destruction of Poland. Directive to the Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Lita ( Latvia) to help bring the refugees to Lita and to help them.

7) Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Latvia and at its head the Askan with the “good name” Dubin who is now in jail for protecting Judaism in Latvia and the Chossid R. Mordecai Chafets - aquired hundreds of visas for the refugees of Poland, over and above, the help to the escapees of Germany and strengthened them with great respect.

8) Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Charbin (?) and its head R. Kisseliev who helped the refugees there.

R. Daniel Chaskin who supported the refugees in Japan materially and spiritually.

9) Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Shanghai, China and its head R. Ashkenazy, who aquired hundreds of visas for [Lomdei] Torah and who also established there the Yeshiva Tomchei T’mimim

10) Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Stockholm and its head R. Zuber and Schochet Chasdan, both students of Tomchei T’mimim who aquired close to 3000 visas for refugees to Japan.

This is just one letter. There are many more that explicitly state and exhort to save and help the Jews both materially and spiritually.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Hoover had not been president for ten years, already.

The rest of what you write is largely false.

Of course, much of what the FR wrote about other things was false, as well, so no surprise here.

[avrohom]

Scotty,

What kind of a response isthere?

your rigg who wasn''t tehre; didn'ttalk to anyone that was alive at that time tell the truth but the FR whose letters are recorded (Each and every letter) ARE FALSE??

Again youprove that you are antisemitic animal!

[Edious]

You again have no clue what you’re talking about, it is not false, you’re the farce around here.
He was a president. And had influence with the presidents at the time.

• Maishe
March 29th, 2005 at 5:13 pm
Rabbi Zalman Schneerson, in shlichus of The Rayatz in France in the 30’s and 40’s virtually moved mountains in efforts to recue children and Yeshivah Bochurim during the war. There are still many witnesses that can attest to that. The person finding fault with Lubavitch for not helping Jews during the Holocaust is not only misinformed, the vitriolic and hateful bend spewing from his comments……… show that there is an underlying motive involved. Lubavitch most probably did him a favor along the way.

[WalkingAlongTheShore]

1)I notice that none of those defending the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe and attacking Shmarya have criticized or even mentioned Rabbi Norman Lamm's charges (in the article above) that the Rebbe committed blasphemy by claiming that G-d used the Holocaust to punish Jews for their sins.

2)Can Shmarya or Pushkina (or Lawrence, after he gets the book and checks the sources for himself) please mention some of the original sources cited in the footnotes of the Riggs book? I'm tired of attack message after attack message saying "You didn't give any sources. Where are your sources?" It's a waste of time, and very annoying, to have to read the same thing over and over again. Just quote a couple of footnotes giving the issues of the paper in question so we can move on. Not doing so just gives the attackers more to go on.

[Shmarya]

your rigg who wasn''t tehre; didn'ttalk to anyone that was alive at that time tell the truth but the FR whose letters are recorded (Each and every letter) ARE FALSE??

Could very well be. The history he wrote is almost entirely false and many other things he wrote have never been published because of major factual errors.

There are several letter from the Rayyatz (Freirdiker Rebbe, 6th Rebbe) to President Roosevelt. All are written during the Holocaust. NONE of those letters deals with Hitler's genocide or rescue. The 6th L Rebbe doesn't even ask Roosevelt to try to save Jews. And he wrote those letters as the "pope of all" Orthodox Jews, the title given him by Lubavitch in 1939 to influence the US government to rescue him.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

With regard to the FR meeting with Hoover, I believe that was in 1929 during his first trip to the USA. After Hoover lost in 1932, he became a hasbeen and had no influence whatsoever.

With regard to Avi's quote of the FR's letter, I am aware of YY Zuber's efforts (not to mention his son's 21 fiancees in Holland-see Kranzler's "Thy Brother's Blood." I've spoken to the Zuber family about this and the exploit is definitely true, and in character for Mendel Zuber) to believe that there may be truth to the letter.

To Walking's request "please mention some of the original sources cited in the footnotes of the Riggs book?" That is exactly what I intend to do.

[Shmarya]

March 29th, 2005 at 5:13 pm
Rabbi Zalman Schneerson, in shlichus of The Rayatz in France in the 30’s and 40’s virtually moved mountains in efforts to recue children and Yeshivah Bochurim during the war. There are still many witnesses that can attest to that.

1. The Rayyatz had no shaliach in France or anywhere else.

2. RZS was not a Lubavitcher. He was a Chabad hasid, to be sure, but was NOT a follower of the Rayyatz. (Remember, until the late 1920s there were several Chabad rebbes scattered serving at the same time.)

3. The Va'ad Hatzalah saved more Jews during any given month of its existence than Lubavitch did throught the entire duration of the war.

4. Most of what Chaabd writes about its own role in rescue is wildly exaggerated.

5. A well-know problem among academics who study rescue or hasidic history in general is Chabad's untruthfulness. A parallel problem is Chabad's refusal to allow researchers free access to materials, even to materials awarded it in court cases where Chabad made the claim that the materials belonged to all hasidim and were to be used for the public good (and were therefore NOT the private property of any individual).

In Rigg's case, he was given access. But Chabad could NOT produce any documents to support its position. Rigg notes this in his book.

Can Shmarya or Pushkina (or Lawrence, after he gets the book and checks the sources for himself) please mention some of the original sources cited in the footnotes of the Riggs book?

Rigg mentions many citations in HaKriah v'HaKedushah, the Freirdiker Rebbe's (6th rebbe, Rayyatz) own 'newpaper' published during the war.

He also cites passages from Lekkutei Dibburim. And he cites letters and other documents from the National Archives and other repositories.

He has an entire chapter on the activities (and lack there of) of the 6th rebbe after his rescue, and of Lubavitch.

[avi]

Shmarya,

This little exchange is proof of how false you are.

You bring every crackpot source you can think of and claim it's Torah M'Sinai.
Yet when you are proven WRONG your bloated ego can't allow you to
acknowledge the real truth.

Here's the latest sampling of your delusion:
"the Freirdiker Rebbe did not meet with the president"
This one lied, that one lied etc. Chabad is all false etc. The letter is false.
This guy wasn't a follower of the Rayyatz.
"The Rayyatz had no shaliach in France or anywhere else".

All this garbage from the great "seeker of truth"!

"In Rigg's case, he was given access. But Chabad could NOT produce any documents to support its position"

What BS. I found this letter in 5 minutes. Why couldn't the great Rigg find it?
Did Rigg interview even one of the people mentioned in that letter? I doubt it!

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

If the Rayyatz met with Hoover, he did so in 1929, more than 10 years BEFORE the Holocaust.

That meeting has no bearing on what the Rayyatz did and did NOT do during the Holocaust.

If this is the best argument you can make, go home.

[henry]

Shmarya
I can't believe you don't tire of these Lubab illiterates(Avrohom)or the little more 'sophisticated' rewriter of history, Avi and their ilk. You see, the one thing Lubab did 'learn' from Hitler is the 'big lie' theory:Continue to lie and eventually you''ll be believed.Alas for them you have the patience to take them on every single time, most people just give in.
Just for the record regarding Lubab 'history':Lately documents have been found proving the sad story of one of the Lubavitcher scions conversion, probably because of mental health issues.The 'official' Lubab story:A cock and bull story of winning a religous debate and wandering Europe because of the wrath of the Church! And the absolute incomprehensible rewriting of history is the large portion of Lubab that claims the late Rebbe is alive and well death certificates notwithstanding!
Despite all of the above I still give Lubavitch a lot of credit for being out there and trying to save Jews spiritually and physically.I think the Rebbe and his father worked tirelessly on behalf of Jews for a good portion of their lives.T he Previous Rebbe was ill and infirm during the War and I have no problem understanding that he could not do much.My problem with Lubab is their inability to admit/realize that their leaders were human and not infallible,and they they did not invent the proverbial 'Jewish wheel'

[henry]

I meant the Rebbe and his father-in-law.If I don't make it clear that I am quite at home with Lubavitch history the lubab will be all over me

[Seven]

Avi,
Aren't you ashamed of bringing proof of the P.Rebbes work on behalf of holocaust victims from a meeting with a prez ten years earlier?(or are you just a bored year old kid in oholei torah?)

[avi]

Typical, Shmarya. You always resort to name calling when you know you are WRONG.

The point of the 1st letter is that the FR was concerned for the Jews of Europe,
Which dispels the cynical statement that the FR was only concerned for himself and his library
( And yes, it was more than 10 years BEFORE the Holocaust, which I acknowledged when I posted it.)

The second argument is the letter of the FR in 1941.

But, there really is no point in bringing further proof since you have already
shown how biased you are by your outrageous statements.
( "a well-known problem..."? How lame!)

Regards,

Avi

[avi]

Henry, Seven

As you continue to kneel at Shmarya's altar. think about this:

While Googling. I came across a particularly vile anti-semitic site that
cited "sources" for every anti-jewish practice that they could think of.

This blog was mentioned more than once as "proof"!
Yasher Koach Shmarya.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

The second argument is the letter of the FR in 1941.

All letters sent to the president are archived. The letters from the FR to Roosevelt do NOT ask for Roosevelt to save Jews, They do NOT show "concern" for "all the Jews of Europe" or for any of the Jews of Europe.

The FR was a moral failure. You are either a fool or dishonest.

[Nachman]

Can't help but agree with Shmarya on the Lubavitch topic.

Shmarya is living proof of their failure!

[Edious]

Yes, Shmarya is a failure Judaism has had failures for thousands of years.
Avi good point on the anti Semitic site that cites Shmarya as a source, The FR has people putting on Tefilin and teaching Public School children and Shmarya has Christians anti Semitic using him as a source against Judaism, how’s that for moral failure.
Again Shmarya there are letters, you claim he was not worried about the war yet someone documented possibly he himself pre Shmarya era that he needed visas and such for jews, Hoover was a president and the letters they have documented that you claim he did not ask for help, again since you can’t read Hebrew “nifgash” means he MET as he met him face to face, learn Hebrew you Jewish ignoramus and again shows how you don’t even read what people say you just keep on ranting the same recycled crap.
Again this letter was from the FR to one of his talmadim and now according to Shmarya his execrating.
HaKriah v'HaKedushah, is not that valid of a source since it was not EDITED by the FR, and it was meant for Lubavitch students who know the meaning and understand what the FR was saying, not idiots like Shmarya.
A man once went to the FR and said that he is an apikores the FR replied what do you think by cracking sunflower seeds you come an apikores? You don’t know enough, same applies to you shamrya your not bad just stupid.

[Shmarya]

Process:

Hoover was not president during WW2. He had no influence on the Roosevelt Administration.

Historians (note the plural) agree that the FR did little to save Jews and a lot to save his books and silver collection.

And HaKriah V'HaKedushah was PUBLISHED by Lubavitch at time when Lubavitch was very small. To say the FR's vies were regularly misrepresented by the paper is foolish. Further, it was not meant for "Lubavitch students" alone – it was used as a PR venue for the FR and was distributed throught Brooklyn and the Lower East Side, as well.

[avrohom]

Walking along shore:

1) The issue is not DR. Lamm's criticism; as theological issues are not this place to be debated (a place that is created to foster antimsemitism against observant jews); the only issue I'm actually speaking about is the sadistic and heinous crime of the erev rav of this blog and all the ilk that kneel to him (because in this case it fits their agenda of deep hatred to chabad) that the FR told people not to give money to save other JEws.

!0 Rigg didn't say this far (you can here on this article); even if he would it would be a trterrible libel and defamation because nothing is further than the truth,

2) Whichis the issue brought about: And i challenge all the big egos and haters, find me one ORIGINAL SOURCE FROM THE FR which corroborates your libel!

Anyone hdere who goes along with this erev rav because it coincides with comfort level zone of bashing chabad, should know that you are partners to people who wwould like to change bris as we kinow it, who lauds the expulsion of 9,000 jews, who ddefends SS officcers becuas e he hates YIDDISHKEYT AND HASHEM ELOKEY YISROEL!

[avrohom]

"Could very well be. The history he wrote is almost entirely false and many other things he wrote have never been published because of major factual errors".

Me
Idiot! WE are discussing data of what happened: Someone states that the FR did something to save Jews. He shows you a letter that is recorded by the movement that *he wrote it* (i'm not discussing whether or not the history he wrote is factual), and Rigg has not shown any interest in trying to see in the leters if they corroborate his views or they contradict his views: Whom is this reflect badly, Rigg or the FR? Scotty the antisemite or the FR?

OF course the former!

"There are several letter from the Rayyatz (Freirdiker Rebbe, 6th Rebbe) to President Roosevelt. All are written during the Holocaust. NONE of those letters deals with Hitler's genocide or rescue. The 6th L Rebbe doesn't even ask Roosevelt to try to save Jews".

This in no way means that he did not find other ways in which he may have felt would be more successful in that particular moment. Maybe, maybe, maybe. he felt that the anger of making it sound as there is another group doing in a competitive mode to what others have been doing in unison would send a wrong message, and would bring unnecessary strife when it would do harm to the message.

But it's neither here or there.

There are recorded letters by the movement that he wrote those letters that are printed. You the antisemite denied their existence...

and you the antisemite have not yet produced one shred of evidence to your libelous assertion that the FR told people not to give money to VH.

[Shmarya]

Follow avrohom's 'logic' here:Rigg didn't say this far (you can here on this article); even if he
would it would be a trterrible libel and defamation because nothing is
further than the truthEven "if" historians write bad things about the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, those bad things can't be true because the 6th Lubavitch Rebbe was a "tzaddik."

And that, my friends, is a good working definition of cult psychology.

[Shmarya]

WE are discussing data of what happened: Someone states that the FR did something to save Jews. He shows you a letter that is recorded by the movement that *he wrote it* (i'm not discussing whether or not the history he wrote is factual), and Rigg has not shown any interest in trying to see in the leters if they corroborate his views or they contradict his views: Whom is this reflect badly, Rigg or the FR? Scotty the antisemite or the FR?
Of course, Rigg QUOTES from the FR's letters on his book and he INTERVIEWED many Chabadniks, including Chabadniks who were there at the time.

But, as I noted in my comment immediately above, this is not about fact or truth – avrohom and his fellow travelers are in a cult, and the cult is always 'correct.'

[avrohom]

Lawrence,

Thank you for being honest and sharing your candid info that there is 'Some truth" to the letter posted by Avi. RIbonoy shel olom: how hateful can one get, (and then complain about the l hating others), not even acknowledging simple facts that letters printed in IGrot Kodesh of Rayats were actually written by him.

The point about HHoover, as explained by others was clearly to show that when the Rebbe did take an interest in klal yisroel.

AS i sense from you (and i may be wrong) you are aware of the tensions on this issue. And there may have been so many scenarios where thwere unnecessary fights about this or that group. Why can't you acknowledge that that may have played a role? when everyone knows that the character of the RAyatz prior to this was total and selfless self scrifice for the [HYSICAL WELL BEING OF JEWS IN RUSSIA? IT is widely known that the REbbe would have the power in russia to raise money and give to ALL yeshivos! including mitnagedic!

How pathetic for ben torah who is unbiased or a frum yid who still has some yid in him and has soem respct for elders and tzadikim not to give the benefit of the doubt to person who all his life fought for the physical and spiritual well being of jews.

[Shmarya]

when everyone knows that the character of the RAyatz prior to this was total and selfless self scrifice for the [HYSICAL WELL BEING OF JEWS IN RUSSIA? IT is widely known that the REbbe would have the power in russia to raise money and give to ALL yeshivos! including mitnagedic!Actually, a historian I know has documents that prove the 6th Rebbe stole money meant for all Jews in Russia. The money was given by the Joint Distribution Committee and they were about to withdraw all support for the 6th rebbe and announce his theft when the events of Yud Beis Tammuz happened. The Joint remained silent because they did not want to endanger the 6th Rebbe's life.

When the 6th Rebbe was released from prison, he was hailed as a hero (largely due to Lubavitch PR) and the joint decided to let the matter drop because Schneersohn would no longer be in Russia and no longer in charge of money given by the Joint.

[Shmarya]

I should add that you will be able to read this information and see the documents when his book comes out.

[Avrohom]

Henry,

And I can't beleive how you little nothing thinks of himself as highly sophisticated to call other "illiterates" when calling your stupidity of being a partner to someone who defames yiddishkeyt as a whole, wants to do way with briss as we know it, lauded the expulsion of 9,000 jews, defended SS officers quite recently!

You big "Literate" boor, we have not been discussing in this (or other threads) the "infallibility" of a Rebbe or the FR; pay attention to what has been discussed:

What we have been discussing is a libelous charge by Scotty that the FR told people not to save JEWS!? Not more not less....what is so much about "literacy" that you cannot comprehend that even if one thinks that the misgivings odf a tzadik is due to his fallibility, still one should not and cannot ascribe to a righteous person the immoral claims that Scotty claims to, and that YOU are aiding him by being a partner to this false claim!

You talk about the "big lie"; why are you entitled to -perpetuate a 'B iglie" that the FR told people not to save jews?

[Avrohom]

Avi:

Thank you! for making my day, showing how this piece of nothing the erev rav of the generation became antisemitic.

[Shmarya]

What I claim is the FR made anti-Va'ad Hatzalah statements and at the same time raised money in competition with the Va'ad Hatzalah and that a large portion of the money the 6th Rebbe raised went to open his Brooklyn Yeshiva, not to rescue.

[avrohom]

YOU ARE THE CULTMEMBER of the antisemitic group that lokks for lies against frumme yidden when there are none.

Process that (bilshoncho hatomey):

WE have a recorded letter, Lawrence told you that from his info, he senses truth in it, and you deny it: Who is cult brainswahed by the "Humanists" "Secularists" animal lover and SSdefender: ME OR YOU!!!

[AVROHOM]

I did read once upon a time some of riggs' book> He did NOT talk to chassiim who were at the time to be able to give perspective: Did he talk to R. Yisroel Jacobson? R. S> Levitin?

From things that i knew for a fact i sensed that he did not have a grasp for the wy things work in the movment toundertand the reality of what happened and what did not happen.

[Shmarya]

A recorded letter. Wow. He wrote one letter to try to save Jews? One letter in 5 years?

But he never wrote the President or any major politicians regarding rescue, although he did write them to give his general "blessings" and wished them well, all the while never mentioning the Jews of Europe.

Yup. A big 'hero'.

[avrohom]

scotty,

Now with the other lie: the "historian" who spoke about the JDC: You state things as if they are gospel and truth. The fact is that then the REbbe was highly respected (see the holy NYT 0f the times) and nogthing of your antisemtiic ddefamation ever surfaced. ONly now we have an unkown historian telling the antismeite about those things. The FR HELPED ALL YIDDEN IN RUSSIA. ASk people close to Rav Mallin ...

One recorded letter amongst many others! ASnd there was things that you either don't know or make yourself as you don't know to understadn that may have been other things that hindered upon his ability to perform these activities in a way that would not harm the causes.

[Shmarya]

Don't worry, avrihom. When the book comes out you can just make the same circular arguments you're making right now.

[avrohom]

yes, anoter "historian" who wants to become famous and make money in lineling a tzadik together with the antisemite scotty!

[Shmarya]

avrohom goes 'round in circles. avrohom flies hi like a bird up in the sky …

[avrohom]

scotty,

muy arguments ar less circular that your cultish antismeitic arguments stating tha the FR told people not give money to VH. You could not citer one source. If Rigg told this to you privately is the same antisemite as you, but he at least did have the normalcy not to make such unwarranted and uncorroborated claim as you do. You take your coultish antisemitic ideas and make gospel out of them aand proving them with your ciircular argmuents: "of coruse it ss true look at Rigg" Did Rigg really say this "obviously look it up? and where did Rigg see this???" "How stupid of you, you want to question the infallible Rigg????"
\

and other circular logic of the god of humanism none other than the grewatst of the greatsest since the incemption of the world "as we know it"!

[Shmarya]

Rigg did cite sources. You did not bother to look them up.

[avrohom]

Scott,

Forthe millionth timr and going in circles:

Where in the original works of the FR does that charge appear? which page in which book?

[Fleishike Kishke]

S. Ansky wrote a book (The Enemy at his Pleasure) about his activities helping/saving/assisting Jewish Russian/Galician/Ukrainian civilians and soldiers, getting them money, matzo for Pesach etc. during WWI. I read the whole book expecting to see ONE reference to Lubavitch because it sounded like he was doing all the things Lubavitch claims to have done. And wouldn't you know Lubavitch, YYatz, is nowhere to be found. Sounds like YYatz read/heard about Ansky's work and after Ansky died ca. 1920 before the work was published, claimed all Ansky's accomplishments as his own. Yyatz got his Hasidim to "sacrifice their lives for Jewry," but he got his fat ass to Riga where he ate his supper on schedule, smoked himself to a stroke, and wrote about the evils of worldly pleasure, ordering his poor followers to do without. Yyatz remninds me of the Hamas who are good at getting others to become "martyrs" for heavenly reward, but savvy enough to eat their pie here. Schneersonism used to = Shabbateanism. Now it's just Avodah Zorah. Sorry Lubabs. You've grown up in a scam.

[avrohom]

kishke,

you have got yourself a rotten kishke to the core...youcan make asher yotzar on yourself because you are a cheftzo of tzooh. YOu should die from jealousy to see how the Rayatz acomplished all things attributed to him by people who testify how things were arranged by the Rayatz ...there are numerous books by his students...And you vermin think thatAnsky did everything himself physically. SO the Rayatzis now blamed for organizing an army and a setting to accomplishall hte things that ansky did no make mention to chabad?

Now your verminous charge about the Rayatsupper isbeneath any standardsand does not deseerve a response for a dog does not derseve to be replied to. But for others to be mocheh on such a blatant bizoyon, the Rayatz did not just send others, HE WAS HIMSELF IMPRISONED AND TORTURED AND BEATEN TO DEATH and thisguy has the gall to pseak of the supper in riga?!?! piece of vermin...

it seems that you have eaten tryfe and had lots machshovos zoroys and have avodoa zoros for you to be so contaminated with suchmalicious and evil thoughts

[avrohom]

whileyou are cleaning your kishkes can you cite some independent sources that corroborate the matzos activies of ansky?

[Shmarya]

ansky went as a representative of a war relief council of some sort. They provided the food, money, matza, etc. And no one (at least no historian) argues this.

The book, BTW, make the Gerrer rebbe look very bad because his concern is primarily for his house and family and not for the rest of the Gerrer hasidim or Polish Jewry.

And again, as for Rigg's sources, he cites them in a chaper written specifically about the Rayyatz's activities after he got to America. Can't you just get the book and look up the specific sources in HaKriah v'HaKedushah, Likkutei Dibbuirim, etc.?

Rigg and many other are quoted publicly saying the Rayyatz was a moral failure, etc. it would seem to me that if you want to prove them wrong (something no one else has done) th eway to do that would be to get the book, see all the source citations and look up the sources.

Of course, you won't do that, now will you?

[avi]

"He wrote one letter to try to save Jews? One letter in 5 years?"

There are other letters, as I stated.
He wrote to R. Grodzensky, to R. Yalus of Philadelphia etc

But so what? The FR and Chabad Chassidim actually risked
their lives to save and help Jews as is evident by that 1 letter.

The FR dedicated his whole life to Klal Yisroel, he was imprisoned, lost his daughter and son-in-law to the Nazis YM"S and spent his final years working tirelessly for all Jews.

Shmarya, would have you believe that the FR was some scam artist basking on the Riviera, who hated Jews and actually tried to thwart their rescue (R"L).

His basis is Rigg, the infallible historian, whose research is 50 years after the fact, and is based on spurious, limited
and possibly biased sources.

Anyone with half a brain, reading Shmarya's outrageous and slanderous lies steeped
in innuendo and conjecture, which only increase in exaggeration and desperation,
must conclude that Shmarya is truly insane.

But as a true psychotic, anyone who confronts Shmarya's paranoid bizarro world,
writes "crap" and is an idiot, especially when they quote a valid objecting source.

And for those who are enjoying jumpimg on this demented bandwagon, Shmarya also bashes other Rabbis including R. Elchonon Wasserman Zt"L.

The fact that he has not bashed R. Kotler et al. is only because they are serving his psychotic hatred of Chabad.

Just wait, they'll get their turn also. And you all will be complicit.

Regards,

Avi

[Shmarya]

Lets see if I understand you 'logic'.

1. Several historians, Rigg among them, believe the Rayyatz did little to save Jews.

2. The rabbis of the Va'ad Hatzalah had nothing good to say about the Rayyatz. The did, however, have much bad to say about him.

3. Chabad followers alive at that time had no documents or information to prove Rigg wrong.

4. Neither did Chabad historians like Eliezer Zaklikowsky. (Hope I spelled it right, Zak.)

5. The letter the Rayyatz wrote to President Roosevelt during the war do not in any way deal with the plight of Jews or rescue.

6. The Rayyatz did, however, ask the US government to rescue his books and his household's collection of silver.

7. The Rayyatz publicly condemned those who broke Shabbos to raise money to save lives, and who met with and worked with Christian clergy and non-Orthodox Jews to save lives.

8. Those condemned actions saved thousands of lives directly and led to the creation of the War Refugee Board, which saved 200,000 more.

9. The Rayyatz opened a competing rescue organization. Called the Pidyon Shvuyim Fund, it advertised in the pages of HaKriah v'HaKedushah, the Rayyatz's 'newspaper.' The Rayyatz used a big chunk of the money raised to open his Brooklyn yeshiva, not to rescue Jews.

10. Avi, avrohom and other Chabaniks look at the above evidence and dismiss it out of hand.

Why?

11. Because in Chabad theology, a perfect tzaddik, which by definition every Lubavitcher rebbe must be, can not sin. He can't be a liar or a fraud. He can't even be a coward.

12. Therefore, in Avi's mind, the Rayyatz must be correct.

Of course, the Rayyatz was a moral failure. But no amount of proof, short of a personal declaration from God himself, will ever get Avi, avrohom or others like them to admit the truth.

[Shmarya]

And you should not forget that the Rayyatz's only grandchild, who was rescued as a young adult together with him, had no information to back up Avi's, et al, claims of great rescue work done by the Rayyatz. Quite the contrary.

Barry told me what he told Rigg several years earlier – he believed his grandfather did everything he could to save Jews but there was not much that could be done. He felt the messiah campaign and the other things done by the Rayyatz instead of rescue were all the Rayyatz could do. He had no information whatsoever to prove his grandfather did anything to help Jews in Europe. All he had was his belief.

[Shmarya]

But so what? The FR and Chabad Chassidim actually risked
their lives to save and help Jews as is evident by that 1 letter.

How did the FR "risk his life"? Where was the FR when this alleged letter was written?

[Edious]

Shmarya: “it would seem to me that if you want to prove them wrong (something no one else has done)”
“Several historians”
Some more would be nice.
“Chabad followers alive at that time had no documents or information to prove Rigg wrong”
Did then know he even existed? Did Rigg approach them to see what their reply was? I think not on both accounts.
“The Rayyatz publicly condemned those who broke Shabbos to raise money to save lives, and who met with and worked with Christian clergy and non-Orthodox Jews to save lives”
Was he wrong? No. Does that means he was against rescue efforts? Again no.
Barry Gurary was 13 in 1936 do the math about how much of a witness he was.
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html

So any person that comes around and states a biased story (as Avrohom said did he ask any Lubavitcher’s? anyone there at the time? at least a statement from them as”No comment”?)he talked to the secretary of the VH who happens to have ties with Anti-Lubavitch, he then talks to a nemesis of Lubavitch someone who his own father did not support him publicly and then slanders his uncle and everyone believes him and then call this history, and after all this the historian goes on a top notch website like mentalblog.com with his Barry G crap, does no one see some holes here? After all this he writes he has nothing to gain by slandering the FR, and we all know controversy sells- Shmarya making any money?- and I think we can all agree that not everything the FR did was documented and told over.
Plain and simple no one has to prove him wrong because the end results speak for themselves, the good deeds the man deed and his devotion to Judaism and to every single Jew.

[Shmarya]

Barry Gurary was 13 in 1936 do the math about how much of a witness he was.

If Barry was 13 in 1936 he was 16 or 17 in August 1939, which was when the war started and was 17 or 18 when they were rescued.

“Chabad followers alive at that time had no documents or information to prove Rigg wrong”
Did then know he even existed? Did Rigg approach them to see what their reply was? I think not on both accounts.

You think wrong. He did. No documents existed. He details all this in the book you have not bothered to read.

The rest of what you write is simply more foolishness.

[avrohom]

scotty,

i already told you that i read parts of that book. It impressed me as someone who did not grasp the reality of the day. He was not privy to speak to people who alive at the time to be able to have perspective as to 1) what happened, 2) what did not happen, 3) the reasons that it turned out the way it did, He relies on some of the people that were there, even from the other side i think he did not talk the "moderates" who would give him another picture ofwhat transpired in between the lines.

Rigg did not talk to the chabad followers of that time. They are not alive!

And even after riggs failure in properly assessing the truth, he could not out condeming the REbbe to state that he ordered not to give money to others groups who save money. In factI saw a letter to the contrary.

Your assertions notwithstanding, you are a pathological antisemitic person to any observant jew. And Avi is 1000% right: you be the first to find faults with Rav Kotler (as you find about every single rabbi on any single issue) but when it suits you, you pit him against the REbbe.

You hate the REbbe because he BROUGHT YIDDISHKEYT ALIVE IN ALL CORNERS OFTHE WORLD and also because you could not beleive that someone takes HALACHA SERIOUSLY THE WAY HE DID: You cannot stand whensomeone beleives in Hashem Elokey yisroel FOR REAl! SOMEONE WHOSE LOVE FOR ANIMALS DOES NOT OVERRIDE THE LOVE FOR HUMAN BEINGS,

you afiliate with ideals foreign to Judaism and at the end humanity. Your freinds whom you laud, are people who engaged in EXPELLING 9,OOO JEWS FROM THEIR HOUSES, you cannot stand the very fact that there are jews who do take seriosly the beleieve that Eretzyisroel belongsto holypeople Am Hakodesh Am Yisroel. The whole concept of holiness is outside of your realm. You make beleif that hold to the seal of truth, but your "truth" leads you to align with and DEFEND A NAZI SS OFFICER!

Lsten Scotty, givei up, nothing you or rigg or another "historian" will take away facts oflife that theRayatz lived a life filled love forjews from his youth on he acted in communal matters including things that are for the well being of his fellow jews. ASk those in YU to help expalin to you why Rav YB Solovwitchik came to the DInner in 1942 of the Yeshiva TOmchey Tmimim and how he lauded and praised the RAyatz for his efforts in heling yeshivos in russia! Why he called the Rayatz at that Dinner: THE REB CHANINA BEN DOSSA OF THE GENERATION!

[Shmarya]

i already told you that i read parts of that book. It impressed me as someone who did not grasp the reality of the day. He was not privy to speak to people who alive at the time to be able to have perspective as to 1) what happened, 2) what did not happen, 3) the reasons that it turned out the way it did, He relies on some of the people that were there, even from the other side i think he did not talk the "moderates" who would give him another picture ofwhat transpired in between the lines.

1. Read the chapter again and see Riggs sources.

2. The book was very well-reviewed by other historians. And it was published by Yale University Press.

3. Rigg spoke to dozens of people from all sides of this issue and documents that CLEARLY in his work.

Rigg did not talk to the chabad followers of that time. They are not alive!A 21 year old man in 1943 would have been 81 in 2003. Rigg did research over many years. The book was published in 2004. Research ended in late 2003 early 2004.

Do you really mean to say that no Chabadniks lived to be 81? That none were lucid and knew anything?

Please.

And Rigg spoke extensively to the FR's grandson, who was very close to his grandfather and was there through it all.

Lsten Scotty, givei up, nothing you or rigg or another "historian" will take away facts oflife that theRayatz lived a life filled love forjews from his youth on he acted in communal matters including things that are for the well being of his fellow jews. ASk those in YU to help expalin to you why Rav YB Solovwitchik came to the DInner in 1942 of the Yeshiva TOmchey Tmimim and how he lauded and praised the RAyatz for his efforts in heling yeshivos in russia! Why he called the Rayatz at that Dinner: THE REB CHANINA BEN DOSSA OF THE GENERATION!Because the Rav had a soft spot for Chabad. H ehad a Chabad teacher as a child and Chabad friends. And he made a very poor decision – one that his closest follwers will tell you he regretted.