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August 15, 2007

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Michael Croland

This is a huge step in the right direction. It's interesting that he even used the word "crisis."

I'm skeptical about how much things will be improved, even if we assume that these people have good intentions. I think that Rabbi Tannenbaum's conclusion speaks volumes:

"Reviewing the entire current kapparos situation, using alternatives to chickens such as money to tzedakah, might be a desirable option."

Lev

Shmarya, how do you think, whose residense is bigger--Rubashkins on 15th(14th) Avenue or Lubavitcher Rebbe and Patriarch of Moskovy and all Russia Aleksi II in"St"-Daniil Cathedral.(He is a Chairman of the Putin-lovers group where Italian citizen Lazar is a member)

Shmarya

Don't know. I'd assume Aaron has a large home – he can afford it and he has lots of children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren that visit. His wife is also a famous hostess who feeds many poor people, both at her restaurant and, I think, at home.

That being said, ill-gotten gains are still ill-gotten.

R

this is why i use the more animal friendly kapparah of money.
I saw once how they treated chickens and decided to never do it.

Abe

Enough already with the kapporot shtoos....

I'M OFF TO WATCH ANOTHER RERUN OF MY " SON THE SHVITZER" ON THE SATMAR CHANNEL. TODAY'S EPISODE: NACHMAN MENDEL BECOMES DEPRESSED WHEN HE DISCOVERS THAT THE SHEET WITH THE HOLE THAT HE USED ON MITZVA NIGHT WAS SHATNEZ.

John K. Diamond

"Reviewing the entire current kapparos situation, using alternatives to chickens such as money to tzedakah, might be a desirable option."

I'd like to paraphrase this, which expresses my own view:

"Reviewing the entire current kapparos situation, using alternatives to chickens such as money to tzedakah, is the ONLY option."


WalkingAlongTheShore

". . . violations of other halakha (like reusing live chickens over and over again which defeats the purpose of kapparot) . . ."

Technically, not true. First, it is not a violation of halacha to reuse a live chicken, because there is no halacha of kapparot. It is a superstitious custom that was a late introduction. It has no basis in halacha. It might be a violation of the made-up rules of the custom, but it has nothing to do with halacha.

Second, as for it defeating "the purpose of kapporot," there is no real purpose of kapporot to defeat. It is all SYMBOLIC. The sins are NOT REALLY transfered to the chicken (or money), and the chicken's death (money's donation) does NOT REALLY atone or remove or do anything to the person's sin. It is supposed to make someone *think* about their sin and the consequences of sin. Which means that these chickens are all killed for a symbolic action that produces no real or mystical result.

The Mishna Berura says that those who perform kapparot should remember that it is not a substitute for true repentance.

According to the Shulchan Aruch of R. Yosef Karo, Jews should not perform Kapporot (though Isserles okayed it in his commentary).

"Reviewing the entire current kapparos situation, using alternatives to chickens such as money to tzedakah, might be a desirable option."

No question about that. Wave a $10.00 bill over the person and donate that. You will provide MUCH more food and help to a person with that then you would with the chicken. Given that simple bit of economics and tzedakah, why WOULDN'T one opt to use money instead?

Anon

PETA seems to have moved on from the kappara issue. Now they are busy criticizing Hamas for animal abuse.

Nachman

Shmarya n"y

Please state clearly what your intentions are.

Qaparoth is a custom that has been followed by orthodox jews for centuries. Do you truly believe that a little noise from a blog will discourage the custom?
I don't think so.

As I posted on many occasions; why don't YOU make the world a better place rather than kvetching about all the ills of the haredi movement?

Lev

Shmarya, thank you for remainding me seriously that Rubashkins DO a lot of good deeds but in Boro Park.
I remember a Shabbos in Crown Heights in 1995 or 1996.
Contemptious looks;"a Litvak", thank God without adjective.
BTW, I am from Southern Ukraine, They are themselvs from Lithuania(distance like from NY to Miami).
And you wanted them to save Ethiopian Yidden...
Hell, maybe all this hatred and Putin-love is because of all neveilos and treifos that they eat from Potsville?
I know you don't beleive in this...

WalkingAlongTheShore

"Qaparoth is a custom that has been followed by orthodox jews for centuries."

You said it: for *centuries*, not for millenia, like holidays and festivals like Pesach, Sukkot, Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, or even Purim, or that latecommer Channukah, for that matter. A new innovation with no Torah mandate or precedent. Don't you think that if HaShem really wanted us to do this - or even thought something like this might be important, He would have told us to do it at Sinai . . . or at least through the Prophets?

You said it again: "a custom." Nothing more and nothing less. Something with no real spiritual value. Just something that people have been doing . . . just because.

You should clarify your statement, however. Make that *some* Orthodox Jews have been keeping this custom. Other Orthodox Jews like Maimonides and R. Yosef Karo did not, as they were opposed to it. R. Karo even said it came from *non-Jewish polytheistic sources*.

It seems to me that if one should not drink wine handled by a Gentile because it *might* have been used for idolatry (even though today we can be reasonably sure most/all commercieally available wine has not been used for such purposes), then one should not engage in a ritual or custom if it is possible that it originated with idolators. Also, since it is a much higher probability that Kapporot originated from a pagan practice than the chance that a Gentile offering you a glass of wine had just used it as a libation offering to an idol, it's just good common sense, as R. Karo saw it centuries ago, not to engage in this ritual.


Lev

Abe, pleeeease keep me posted about newshour on the Channel when they tell about Iran -going Neturei Karta and Satu-mare itself.
LOL obviously!

Klonymus Anonymus

Why are you in bed with PETA and their blatantly anti-Jewish agenda? And if you want to tell me that you are not and just reporting everything equally, then you wouldn't refuse to post stories that are critical of PETA as well. Such as those found at www.petakillsanimals.com

Klonymus Anonymus

Why are you in bed with PETA and their blatantly anti-Jewish agenda? And if you want to tell me that you are not and just reporting everything equally, then you wouldn't refuse to post stories that are critical of PETA as well. Such as those found at www.petakillsanimals.com

Shmarya

Source those stories – many come from a paid PR firm that works for the fast food industry.

Shmarya

And, of course, the fact that a dozen major haredi rabbis had a meeting and duscussed ways to end the abuses PETA made public – and other abuses PETA did not know about, including rampant non-kosher kappparot chicken distribution to Jews – doesn't matter to you, now does it?

Shmarya

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/about.cfm
"PETA Kills Animals" is a project of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the full range of choices that American consumers currently enjoy. In addition to malicious animal-rights activists, we stand up to the "food police," environmental scaremongers, neo-prohibitionists, meddling bureaucrats, and other self-anointed saints who claim to "know what's best" for you.…"The CCF is run by a food industry lobbyist. It has a history of misrepresenting both PETA's actions and the truth.

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