The Perfidy That Never Was

Yad Vashem received the papers of Rudolph Kastner (also spelled Kasztner), the Zionist official who, although he saved many Jews during the Holocaust, was vilified as a "Nazi collaborator." The vilification led directly to Kastner's murder in Israel in 1957.

Here's what Yad Vashem's chairman and its librarian have to say about Kastner, after examining Kastner's papers:

"There was no man in the history of the Holocaust who saved more Jews, and was subjected to more injustice than Israel Kasztner," said former cabinet minister Yosef Lapid, chairman of Yad Vashem's board of directors and himself a Holocaust survivor from Hungary.

"This is an opportunity to do justice to a man who was misrepresented and was a victim on a vicious attack that led to his death," he said, calling Kasztner one of the great heroes of the Holocaust.

Kasztner's backers say his actions were similar to those of Oskar Schindler, a non-Jew whose efforts to save more than 1,000 Jews was documented in the Oscar-winning film Schindler's List.…

Robert Rozett, director of the Yad Vashem library, said that while Kasztner's public legacy has remained in question, it has long been established among historians that he acted in good faith.

"This is a man who was engaged in rescue activities," he said. "Rescue activities during the Holocaust meant being in touch with people who would not particularly like to invite over to your house to have a cup of coffee."

Kasztner himself didn't board his famous train to freedom, instead staying behind and negotiating the further release of Jews, risking his own life.

Rozett said the findings in the archives support the idea that he was dealing in rescue and not behind-the-scenes deals to sell off Hungarian Jews.

Kastner was widely vilified in large-selling book, Perfidy, by playwright Ben Hecht, a leading American Revisionist Zionist. Another book, Min HaMetzar (Out of the Depths) was published in the early 1980s by Avraham Fuchs (with whose son I used to frequently eat lunch and from whom I purchased several copies of the book). It was later translated and republished by ArtScroll as "The Unheeded Cry." The Fuchs book tells the story of Rabbi Wiessmandal, whose rescue organization saved many Jews in Slovakia, Hungary and Romania and who had a very low opinion of Kastner. (BTW, Rabbi Wiessmandal's son is the rabbi in charge of kashrut at all the Rubashkin meat plants.)

Both books are very popular in haredi circles, perhaps because haredi ignorance of history is so profound that the inconsistencies in them are rarely noticed. Yet these books serve as a partial 'justification' for haredi anti-Zionism.

On a personal note, years ago I gave former US Senator Rudy Boschwitz a copy of the Fuchs book because Boschwitz had been so instrumental in saving Ethiopian Jews. Knowing now that Kastner seems to be totally vindicated makes me regret that gift.

UPDATE: Here is a new post with much more background detail, including the views of many Israeli historians.

Comments

[zdub]

Perhaps you want to make some emendations to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_Kastner
?

[steve]

Why did you leave out this part of the article?:

But Kasztner's detractors accused him of colluding with the Nazis to spare a collection of his well-connected and wealthy Jewish friends, while hundreds of thousands of others were being shipped to death camps.

Kasztner moved to Israel after the war and became a top official in the ruling Labor Party. In 1954, local writer Malkiel Grunwald issued a self-published pamphlet that accused Kasztner of being a Nazi collaborator.

The Israeli government sued Grunwald for libel on Kasztner's behalf, resulting in a trial that lasted two years and riveted the nation. In its verdict, the court acquitted Grunwald of libel and concluded that Kasztner "sold his soul to the German Satan."

Kasztner insisted all along that his dealings with top Nazi officials, including Kurt Becher, an envoy of SS commander Heinrich Himmler, and Adolf Eichmann, the Gestapo officer who organized the extermination of the Jews, were necessary to save lives.

Kasztner was demonized in the Israeli public. A year after he was killed, Israel's Supreme Court overturned the lower court's ruling in the libel case, clearing his name.

Sunday's ceremony was attended by Suzanne Kasztner, his only child, and by several people who survived because of the "Kasztner Train."

Kasztner, 61, said the ceremony was another step in the rehabilitation of her father's name. "I also think that the state of Israel has finally retrieved some of its lost honor over this entire affair," she said.

Kasztner's private archives, which were held for research purposes after his death, include three boxes of letters documenting his correspondence with family, Jewish organizations and Nazi officials.

[Shmarya]

Because it adds nothing to what I wrote. The Supreme Court exonerated him and now, 50 years later, his papers and records kept during the Holocaust exonerate him as well.

Haredim used this sad affair to "prove" Zionism wrong and prove it "evil."

It turns out haredim were wrong. (As was Herut.)

[steve]

You're right, it adds nothing to support your own position/opinion. However, for the sake of objectivity and to fairly present the other side, you should have printed the article in its entirety. I personally do not have an opinion regarding Kasztner one way or the other, but from what I have read, it is not only haredim that have villified him.

[Shmarya]

I suppose if you considered Ben Hecht and Revisionist Zionism to be haredim, then you'd have a point.

But few people would make that error.

Further, haredim kept Hecht's book in print, selling rip off editions in Williamsburg, Crown Heights and Mea Shearim.

[malachhamovies]

The satmar rebbe rabbi yoel teitelbaum was on the train. Shmuel Tamir a leader in the cherut party was greenwald's lawyer.

Meanwhile Ben-Hecht who wrote the book (and was one of the main writers for the movie gone with the wind) was the one of the biggest zionists.

Gisi Fleischman (who was very much involved with rabbi weissmandell and his rescue efforts) was a top zionist leader in slovakia.

So, the charedeim as usual don't know what they are talking about. People who have a tiny amount of historical knowledge should keep quiet.

[Nachum]

Shmaryah, once again you demonstrate that you know nothing. The Supreme Court overturned some, but not all, of verdict in favor of Grunwald. One niggling detail that would not go away was the definite fact that Kastner went to the war crimes trials and testified on behalf of Rudolf Becher, a prominent SS man, and got him off the hook.

[Nachum]

Whoops, Kurt Becher. Rudolf was Kasztner's name.

[Shmarya]

Yes. And again, you don't seem to realize that some SS men saved Jews. (Of course, the vast majority did not and were the worst human beings imaginable.)

Kastner's papers apparently show that Becher was among the former.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Shmarya:

A little problem with the whole affair is that Kastner was killed by a retired shin-bet agent, who was pardoned by Ben-Gurion after serving one year of his sentence. This led the conspiracy buffs to theorize that the government had a part in his murder.

Also, you state that Kastner's papers show that Becher helped Jews. What's your source for this?

I fear the entire issue is far more complex than you make it out to be.

[Shmarya]

"Kastner's papers ***apparently*** show that Becher was among the former."

The words of Tommy Lapid and Yad Vashem's librarian.

[UOJ-The Unorthodox Jew]

He was a vicious, conniving, and unimaginable murderer. The deals he made for himself and his friends on Jewish blood, makes me question his Jewish heritage. Nobody can change the facts. May his name be erased!

[Anonymous]

Shmarya, sadly you've sunk to a new low.
Aside from Perfidy, read some of the other literature on the Kastner trial. The charedi Ben Hecht was nearly completely assimilated. The lower court agreed with nearly everything Tamir proved in court. Read the transcript. The Supreme Court overturned technical issues. Not facts.

And Joel Brand who tried to save the Jews of Hungary and was betrayed by the Jewish Agency... what of his story.

And Chana Shenesh who Kastner never tried to help...what of her story.

And keeping the existence of Aushwitz secret so 12,000 Jews a day could be incinerated so he could save his buddies?

This is your new Tzadik?

Try going to Yad Vashem and tell a bunch of survivors there were good SS men....

Tell it to Elie Wiesel after he stood up to President Reagan about the Bitburg memorial.

Shmarya, the only thing Charedi about this post is that the Charedim like to read Perfidy.

But the facts of the case?

Hands down, Kastner was a rasha.

[Anonymous]

Gosh, and the words of Tommy Lapid....

who could ever doubt him...

[Shmarya]

1. I never claimed ben hecht was a haredi.

2. The Tamir-brought case was OVERTURNED on appeal.

3. Lapid and YV's librarian both say Kastner's papers prove him innocent.

4. There were a few good SS men. Ha'aretz just ran a long piece on one who saved many more Jews than Schindler did.

5. I was one of the *leaders* of that Bitburg demonstration.

The only thing haredi about this post is the haredim kept hecht's book in print and continue to believe it true, despite massive evidence to the contrary. (To be fair to Hecht, it is unlikely hecht had this evidence.)

[Shmarya]

Here is the Ha'aretz story I mentioned:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/884017.html

[avrohom]

the only consistent thing about your silly rampage that you twist and turn everything and anything against observant jews.

here you accept the opinion of some and negate completely the opinion of many (I know people who are not charedi (actually zioninsts beleeifs) and who were present at the time of the trial and followed every part of it and were tuterly convinced that kastner was the opposite of tzaddik) and do not even think of the inmplication that many bbeleive the was a huge coverup to and silence to protect the few who were saved "shoved the real problem fo the day under the rug", which was an accomplice to leading 1/2 million jews to the gas chambers, and in any other subject the erev rav of the generation turns and twists anything against the terrible rabbis that they coverup and protect the criminals (beleive me: in every subject that the erev rav soney yisroel detracts the observant jews we can find the same excuses that were used for kastner, that they really beleive that they attempt to heal the problems) . This helps us understand the phenomenom of someone who cannot fathom the existence of observant jews in the year 2007 and his hatred is that of the apikorssim who brought all of our destrructions...but do not fear: We overcame other enemies we will overcome this enemy as well.

[avrohom]

another startling phenommenom: the more this rosho erev rav hates observant jews and finds fault with every single ill of the world, the closer he get's to strat defending haters of jews and now he already has the tendency to defend SS men!!! Whether there were some few of the few who duid a good or another...but the axiom and the chazakah until known otherwise is that they were reshoim arrurim. K went to defend one of them! How telling it is! and this rosho atuomaitcally defneds him and condemns any observant jew especiailly a rabbi!

[Shmarya]

Gee. How amazing it is that you, who have not seen Kastner's papers and have not seen the evidence can not only dismiss this evidence but, at the same time, indict anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of it.

Of course the vast majority of SS men were terrible mass murderers. I wrote that above.

But what gives you the right to presume a particular SS man was evil if there is evidence from Jews that says he was not?

When Kastner's papers are archived and made public, we'll see what the truth is.

For now, we have two people – one of them a survivor from Hungary, no less – in positions of responsibility who say the papers prove Kastner's innocence.

Since the Supreme Court found him not guilty in 1957, there is no reason to consider him guilty today.

The papers will speak for themselves.

[Nachum Lamm]

Wow, Shmarya! You're pretty smug! Have *you* read the papers? Of course not.

The latest: A jury let O.J. off the hook. He didn't do it.

You really let your hatred define how you feel about everything. It's a pity. I pity you.

[Shmarya]

Please.

The point is, Lapid and others at YV HAVE read the papers and say that those papers prove Kastner's innocence.

For you or anyone else to dismiss that out of hand is wrong.

[avrohom]

people who listened to the evidence at the first trial were convinced that he was guilty. They are entitled to feel he is guilty. They are entitled to say that you and your freinds would like to "coverup and hush it under the carpet", and every SS has the chazakah of being a rosho mamosh until proven otherwise and you have a chazakah not to betrusted on any thing factual or your opniion unless provenotherwise and from this moment on all your diatribes against rabbis or observant jews will clearly be seen as it is your vituperative hatred towards them that tells you toportray what yoy hear aboput them in a terrible light...and all the above proves that you can be animal lover and a SS defender....a humanistic rational so called ethical and moral person but the most immoral and reprehensbile person who defames obseravant jews....the only positive thing that you accomplish is for everyone to see how the Rambam was so right: you start bashing tzadikim...you question torah shebaal peh...deride observance of torah....and look for faults in them...question everything Jewish and connected with ELokey Yisrael.... AND DEFEND SS!

[Shmarya]

Really?

So "people" who saw the first trial "thought" he was guilty? And they still have the "right" to think so?

Well, I hate to break it to you but some people who saw the first trial thought he was innocent. And the Supreme Court agreed with their view.

And now, if Yad Vashem is to be believed, Kastner's papers, which include correspondence from him and to him by Nazis and others, prove Kastner innocent.

What matters are the facts, not your feelings about those facts or my feelings about those facts.

And, again, here is another example of a "good" SS officer:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/884017.html

There were a few – VERY few – like this. But SS officers who saved Jews need to be "defended," even if self-appointed "holy men" like avrohom don't like it.

[Shmarya]

One would think a "religious" person like avrohom would be happy to find out that a Jew, once thought to be a collaborator, had, in fact, acted honorably and had saved many, many lives at great personal risk.

One would think that, at the very least, on Erev Tisha B'Av he would keep an open mind and perhaps try to judge this Jew favorably.

But we see instead what is the all to common haredi reaction – attack those that he disagrees with, demonize them, brand them the Other, and refuse to even consider the possibility this man was truly innocent.

This is textbook haredism. And it is very, very wrong.

[Moishe]

Shmarya is an idiot.

Clearly he has not read Perfidy, nor knows anything about the true story.

A quarter of a million Jews were sacrificed. Kastner had made a deal with the devil eichmann to mislead them into thinking they were going to a place called "Kainermeize" - Land of Bread.

Instead they were taken to be brutally slaughtered.

Fuck you shmarya and I hope you get a pinecone inserted in your anus when you burn in hell.

By the way, when the LAWFUL part of the hearing was being held, the judge ruled on Kastner's countersuit to Malchiel Greenwald that Kastner had "Sold his soul to the German Devil"

I have said some praisworthy things of you in the past. I dearly, dearly, dearly regret them and although I can't apologize to the people who were influenced by my comments because the internet is such a vast ground, I hope justice will serve its course and idiots like you will be the ones to die in the next holocaust.

[Shmarya]

My, your ability to reason seems decreased by Tisha B'Av. Perhaps you'll be a bit more settled after the fast.

Again:

1. Ben Hecht wrote a POLEMIC. I'm sure he believed what he wrote, but it is a polemic nonetheless.

2. There is much evidence to exonerate Kastner.

3. Now added to that evidence are his personal papers.

What I wrote about avrohom applies to you as well.

Haredism and democracy do not mix. Haredism and science do not mix.

Why?

Because democracy allows the free flow of ideas and science (more specifically, the scientific method) debunks much of haredi history and theology.

Even so, one would think on Tisha B'Av, no less, that even a haredi would be happy to hear that a Jew once thought to be a collaborator had in fact been a rescuer of many Jews and honest.

But I've come to realize that books like Perfidy give haredim free reign to hate any government of Israel they choose to hate. It gives them free reign to refuse army service, to refuse to pay taxes, to steal from the state.

Perfidy and the Kastner Affair are pillars of haredi demonization of Zionism. Touch those pillars and you become in haredi thought the Other, as "evil" as Kastner himself.

Now regarding this little Tisha B'Av remark of yours:

I hope justice will serve its course and idiots like you will be the ones to die in the next holocaust

I hope that if, God forbid, there is another Holocaust, you and your ilk live to regret those disgusting, hateful words.

[avrohom]

your idolatry to "democracy" has led you to such utter dehumanization of anylittle mmmentch there in you erev rav thatin the wakeof the explsion of 9,000 jewsyou condemend the settlers!

you dont scare me with yourdumb "democracy" and other holy mantras as if they are g-d. There were people who heard kastner testimony andsaw the trial. They do not worship the "democratic court" to change their opinions of a man based on the godless judges. (and especially when there was another "judge" who ruled that k sold his soul to the satan).

(btw and incidentally: even the exoneration (which most today do not agree) does not make what he right; just exonerates him for acting in good faith; what actually happened was that he was used as a tool to ease the destruction of 1/2 millionsjews to the gas chamber).

My main point was not so much to hold k in low esteem as to show what a piece pf garbage and erev rav you are: you demand "judge jews favorably": he spends day in and day out his energy and life mission to judge observant jews non favorably in the worse possible light . he maligns every ill to the rabbis for "covering up" the porblems. And yet he jumps when people who lostALL their families to blame a person who covered up the germans so that a small amount of families and friends be saved. Here the reev rav considers him a tzadik: why because the victims who are screaming are charedim or rightists?!?!!

you twists and turn every single incident to make rabbis look in the worse possible light. if you use your limud zchus for them as you use for k you would be the first to say: perhaps they are acting in good faith in their eyes. but no, you th erev rav cannot doso when discussing those issues. WHY?

because infatuation with goyishe concepts desensitizes one from yidishe concepts. Animal love dampens torah love. SS defnse breeds rabbis hatred and vice versa.

[Shmarya]

He saved more than 20,000 Jews, avrohom. Why, that's 20,000 more than your Rebbe saved, 20,000 more than his father-in-law the previous rebbe saved.

No one is arguing that Kastner was a perfect tzaddik. All I'm saying is this new information supports the Supreme Court's decision to exonerate him.

As for judging other Jews fairly, I pointed that out because YOU regularly demand that of others. You do so based on Jewish law.

But YOU regularly VIOLATE that law when it is convenient for you.

It is YOUR inconsistency coupled with YOUR unwillingness to look at the new evidence that I object to.

[malachhamovies]

Shmarya,

Was there any information that ben-gurion and the jewish agency was in touch with kastner and giving him his orders or was he on his own ?

Also, is there any futher info re: Joel Brand and the blood for goods deal which was allegedly thrawted by the zionist leaders in palestine.

[Shmarya]

I'm not sure what's in the Kastner papers. Past that, nothing new I'm aware of.

I would point out that Brand's Jews for trucks scheme was problematic because it may very well have extended the war. Every extra day of war meant more Jews killed. True, it would not have been those specific Jews, but it would have been others. And it would have meant more Allied deaths, as well.

Fuck off kike.

Again, I hope you die in the next holocaust.

[Shmarya]

Spoken like a true haredi.

[avrohom]

because, antismeite that you are, he was involved in helping kill 1/2 million Jews!!! he was an accomplice to the most heinous murder!

but you don't process that...the shegetz of shetzim will ON TISHA BAV aling with all antiobserant jews and attack them for the ills spina ....for adhering to kashrus laws...just bwecause someone vomited some antisemite poison scotty shoots from his behind onto his venomous blog ON TISHA BAV ....he is an amoretz deorysso ...on tisha bav comdemnds without any compunction the rabbis for not allowing to go to har habayis but this shegets shebishkoptzim will defend to no ends someone who has been an accomplice to send 1/2 million jews to the gas chambers....

One thing you prove to all of us: the words of the rambam that speaking ill about tzadikim leads to speaking against torah and Hashem Elokey Yisroel (ook it up in Hilchoas Tzoraas... you already hit with leprosy but should people have to suffer to catch you contagious leprosy)

[Shmarya]

because, antismeite that you are, he was involved in helping kill 1/2
million Jews!!! he was an accomplice to the most heinous murder!

I think the point Yad Vashem is making is that this allegation of yours is not true.

And, as for who is behaving inappropriately on Tisha B'Av, I'd suggest you look in a mirror.

[avrohom]

And the point made by Judge Halevi and the facts were not contradicted by the agranat judges was that he was an accomplice to the crime. And i am obliged to idolize the judgement of those judges more that i'm obliged to idolize the erev rav scotty...he knew about the plan and kep a big silence and covered it up and the results were 1/2 million jews murdered in the gas chambers (much more that your indicment at rabbis for molestation etc). and he was involved in defending AFTER THE WAR Becher an SS person who at best Becher served as an SS Major in Poland and Russia, as part of the SS-Totenkopfverbände, which perfected the techniques for killing Jews. FEH FEH FEH

you are a fraud immoral soney observant jews who looks fun unter der erd to blame Rabbis for diseases without any shred of hard evidence ...you blame rabbis for telling jews not to go to temple mount (i'm not entering the halachik issues) when YOU ANTISEMITE would be the first one to indict them had they allowed to go (they are inciting the arabs etc etc etc)...you condemned setllers WHEN THEY PROTECT THE WELL BEING OF SDEROT AND ASHKELON...you LUDED THE ONLY MODERN EXPULSION OF 9,000 JEWS FOR NO GOOD REASON OTHER THAN TO BRING HAMASTAN AND KASSAMS NEXT TO SDEROT AND TO STOCKPILE WITH ARMS THE SUBHUMANS OF HAMASTAN and you are have the gall to talk abvout jewish thought ...

Scotty: Again and again you prove and help me understand pshat in the maamar "shtus dkdushoh to voercome shtuss dlumas zeh": the way to defeat the idiotic thought and obsssession to obliterate Hashem and ELokey Yisroel and TOrat Yisroel with a passion when these thoughts (like the one you posted about shabbos NOah Feldman etc.) leads to INTERMARRIAGE people infatuated with universal thought over jewish thought are poisoned and are unable to digest any kedusha and holiness and END UP COVERIBF UP FOR THE MURDER OF 1/2 MILLION JEWS AND DFENDING KURT BECHER YIMACH SHMOY Therefore it helps us understand that the way to withstand these inroads is the intensification of torat yisroel and emunah pshtuah to cling and identify with Hashem echad in a way that transcends taam vodaass because only with lemaaloh mittaam voddaass wil we overcome and keep intact SHLEYMOT HATORAH, SHEYMOT HAAM AND SHLEYMUUT HAARETZ,

[Alex]

Dumb ass Avrohom, Israel was unable to control Gaza as it is populated mostly by Arabs, so Israel cut it loose on the best terms possible.

Would you prefer that Israel just LEAVES the settelers in Gaza while it renounces any kind of soverginty there avrohom you braindead idiot?

Oh an avrohom, please stop pretending that the former settelers protected anything, the IDF protects Israel.

[avrohom]

alex, you dumbell antisemitic observant jews, try to pocess some thought in your vrians (if there is anything inside),

you and your ilk repeat mantra that is long outdated....israel was able to control most of gaza way back then...but stopped when the newpieceshmiess garbage started spouting their dumb mantras as immutabblelaw...they borught the stupid and criminal oslo which brought more thousands death and how more so maimings r"l all because the "enlightened" pice shmiess...then they brought arafat yimach shmoh and the ensuing terror and then while they had the settlements they did not have HAMASTAN AND KASSAMS IN SDEROT. when they dumb disengamgenet came to fore ...these subhumans used the areas disengaged to launch their kassams from those areas to sderot! "the best terms possbile" this is what antisemitic dumbell calls for?

and yes THEY PROTECTED SDEROT because when thy were there there was NO KASSAMS IN SDEORT can you process something this simple or hte garbage nyt has poisened your basic faculties to think straight? (if you ever had any such faculties)....

you idols the secular gods whom you worship who wanted to rid themselves from torah andelokey isroel (whether you like or not lump it: HASHEM ELOKEY YISRAEL!!!!) toappease the arab friends...they brought arafat, hamastan AND NASSRAKAH WHEN THE OTHER BRAINS LEFT AND BROUGHT THE ONE WHO IS STOPCKPILED with the missiles that hit haifa and paralyzed half the country and destroyed the deterrence israel once had all because your stupid ideas that we can attain "democratic" peace shmiess it's the same mentality that hails the enemy and leads to coverups of the enemies intetion to send thousands to gas chambers but they are "smarter" the same mentality who wants to make peace with hamastan as long as the "haredim" and rabis are out of sight!!!

[Jerry]

Where was all his personal files during the trial? Why did he not try to exonorate himself than, If the documents are truly so convincing?

And more importantly, do you really believe his personal files would paint a bad picture of himself? Can you trust the hareidim to write their own history?

[Shmarya]

Not sure. I'd guess it was thought to be unnecessary.

His defense team did not expect to lose the first trial.

I suppose the idea of releasing papers that would drag his family into the trial was something he did not want to do.

[Shmarya]

Here is a long Ha'aretz piece from a couple of years ago that details a lot of controversy surrounding Vrba and Kastner:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=533083

And this is before kastner's papers were released.

What you'll see if you read this is that historians all seem to be on the side of Kastner – even Tom Segev, the "anti-establishment" historian is.

Why? because Slovak archives have been opened up and much more information on what really happened is available today than was available in 1957. And that information supports Kastner and the Jewish council and does not support Kastner's accusers.

It is interesting to note that even Yehuda Bauer, a very strong supporter of Kastner, also supported Vrba, even though he felt Vrba lacked perspective and balance, among other problems.

Anyway, read this and you'll see.

[avrohom]

stop defending coverups of the greatest crime in history. you lose any and all credivbility for all your criticisms at rabbis covering up crimes because you do the same when it suits you.

Your hatred for the rabbis and observant judaism is so deep that you go out of a limb to defend a defender of Becher an SS with blood in his hands. all your bobbeh maysssos about the leaffy and other garbage pale in comparioon to your crusade to defend someone who defended a nazi to avoid the gallows.

Juist a incidental link to the view contrary to the coverup machines.
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/greenstein3.html

[Shmarya]

I know this is a big stretch for you, avrohom, but why not read the Ha'aretz article I linked above?

If you did, you'd learn that historians across the board support Kastner:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=533083

You see, since the fall of the Soviet Union, archives like those kept in Slovakia are now open and can be studied.

Ruth Linn, whom you rely on, did not take advantage of this, in part because she does not speak Slovak, Russian or German and in part because she is not a trained historian and did not do research.

In other words, even though you want to believe the Zionists were evil, that they joined with the Nazis to kill Jews, etc., the facts do not support you.

Ben Hecht had no access to these facts. I doubt he would write the same book today or reach the same conclusions.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

An acquaintance of mine once took the late Klausenberger Rebbe to meeet with Leon Dulzhin, the head of the Jewish Agency. As he told it, the KR told him, (this is a paraphrase: I'm glad we could have this meeting, so I could tell you about your organization during the war. You told us that we had nothing to fear from the Germans, that if we went where they took us, we wouldn't be killed. I followed your advice and lost my wife and 12 children, and for that I will never forgive you.

Kastner may be as innocent as Shmarya claims he is, but it is obvious that the KR (who was not the flaming anti-Zionist the Satmar Rebbe was) believed that the Zionist representatives mislead the Hungarian Jewish populace. Would they have survived if they resisted the Germans? Who knows? But the tantalizing "if" is always there.

Another take on this was that of sociologist Egon Mayer, who was on one of the Kastner trains. In a Moment Magazine article some years ago, he compared Kastner to Schindler, and when letter writers questioned this, he pointed out that during the war, anything one did was subject to ethical questions that were never raised before. I wish I could remember his exact phrase.

One more thing. The trucks for Jews deal was dead before it started. The Soviets would have seen this as an attempt to bolster Hitler on the Eastern Front (which is where the trucks would have been used) and might have backed out of the war before it ended. Stalin was opposed to bombing the camps, because every train that was carrying Jews to their deaths was not carrying men or supplies to the Eastern Front. For a Jew, it's a lousy tradeoff, but if Roosevelt and Churchill were afraid that Stalin, realizing he had more in common with Hitler than with his "allies," might make a separate peace, then allowing the camps to continue working made (gruesome) sense.

[Shmarya]

Lawrence –

Thank you for all that information. It helps put Kastner is perspective.

You ask:

Would they have survived if they resisted
the Germans? Who knows? But the tantalizing "if" is always there.

But do not forget the testimoney of Rabbi Teichtal in Eim HaBanim Semeicha.

He is very clear in stating that the Hungarian rabbinate told Jews not to worry, told them that the Germans would not hurt them, that Jews would be safe, because we Hungarian Jews are not Zionists and God will protect us from the Germans in that merit.

It is hardly likely these people would have believed or listened to Kastner if he had called for a revolt.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

"But do not forget the testimoney of Rabbi Teichtal in Eim HaBanim Semeicha.

He is very clear in stating that the Hungarian rabbinate told Jews not to worry, told them that the Germans would not hurt them, that Jews would be safe, because we Hungarian Jews are not Zionists and God will protect us from the Germans in that merit.

It is hardly likely these people would have believed or listened to Kastner if he had called for a revolt."

I doubt I'm the only one to question Rabbi Teichtal's account of the events. Certainly the Klausenberger's comment that the Zionist leadership told them not to worry was key to him. However, Orthodox Jews weren't the only ones affected. Hungary had a large collection of Neologue Jews and secular Jews as well. Would they have listened to Kastner et. al. if he had told them to resist?

That is the part of the "if."

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Shmarya:

Many years ago Lucy Dawidowicz wrote an essay "The Charge of Perfidy" or something like that in which she dealt with Ben Hecht's accusations and the whole Kastner issue. She dismissed the charge then. But of course, Lucy Dawidowicz had a prejudice that made her put an overwhelming slant on everything she wrote: In discussing the Holocaust, there is no such thing as a guilty Jew. That means Kastner, Chareidi rabbis, and everyone in between.

Sometimes I think she was right.

[Shmarya]

There is much evidence by hungarian survivors to back up what Rabbi Teichtal wrote.

[avrohom]

Lawrence,

Your stance, that in general it is very hard to blame anyone and call him "guilty" i agree with generally. And that btw, goes for the zionists in general (bederech klal).

There has to a clear distinction betwen peole who were given the position and the TRUST to help save jews (vaad hatzalah). When these people who knew what coming and had the responsibility to act upon it (as opposed the rabbis who were not placed on the job and trust of placing resposibility for the physical well being on a phyysical plane are not to be put on the same plane as those who were given this reponsibility.

When a person like this knows ahead of time about what was about to happen and he did not disclose it with the people whom he was supposedly entrusted for these matters the chazakah is that he was moel bishlichussoy at least and at worse....

[avrohom]

scotty,

you think i can'tthink for myself. You can cite a hundred ipinions and new evidence by lapid and shmarya. There is nothing factual that will add up to change what is known and what was heard from the man himself and by theman himself and nothing will change the fact that he went to defend becher etc.

but your acrobatics should show you that one can do the same acrobatics in 88% of things that you raiseagainst religous observantjewsand cite numerous articles from the der yid yated hamodia and kfar chabad but they will mean nothing toyou...but the reasonings are the same in a differentlevush...

thefactthat you choose to defend becher and malign rabbis at the same breadth...s[eaksvolunes about howlow you sank...

the same you write about K can be a thousand times be said about any rebbe who was not given thephysical job to inform them on a physical plane what the germans aredoing....but you choose to use the harshest stick for them but for becher and for the animals and all ills you have a lot of good to say...

[Shmarya]

the same you write about K can be a thousand times be said about any
rebbe who was not given thephysical job to inform them on a physical
plane what the germans aredoing....

They were not "given" on a "spiritual plane," either, avrohom.

As documented clearly in Eim HaBanim Semeicha, the rabbis there told their followers that the Germans would not harm them because the "merit" of our "anti-Zionism" will protect us.

I'd also note Kastner encourage people to go to Israel when that was still possible. Those who listened to him and other zionist leaders lived. Those who listened to the rabbis mostly died.

Now, if Kastner had told the Jews about the death camps, what would have happened? Again, the rabbis would not listen to him. A revolt was very unlikely.

Many Jews would have been killed in situ due to panic and german reprisals.

Kastner was able to save 20,000 by diverting their train to a work camp, rather than a death camp.

He saved almost 2000 others, including the Satmar Rebbe, with his private train to freedom.

And Kastner did not ride that freedom train. He stayed behind and tried to save more Jews.

I do not think you appreciate the horrendous choice Kastner had to make.

If he had done what YOU wanted, 22,000 more Jews would have been murdered by the Nazis.

Do you still think Kastner was wrong?