Rabbi Avi Shafran's 4th of July Lie
Rabbi Avi Shafran distorts history and, yes, lies again. The Agudath Israel of America spokesperson – the man who represents haredi 'gedolim' to the media – writes in today's July 4th Jerusalem Post under the headline "American Idols":
…The morphing of social or political beliefs into quasi-religions was noted in the mid-1930s by a renowned, sainted Orthodox Jewish scholar (who, although he was in America shortly before the outbreak of the Second World War, refused to abandon his students and returned to his yeshiva in Poland, where he and they perished at Nazi hands).
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman warned that "isms" - he mentioned, among others, socialism, communism and various forms of nationalism - are modern-day "idolatries." Although the primal urge to pay homage to wood and stone no longer exists in our world, a residue of idol-worship persists - in the form of such "isms." Were he alive today, Rabbi Wasserman might well add "liberalism," "conservatism," "feminism," "environmentalism" or "pacifism" to the roster.…
Rabbi Shafran goes on to conclude that modern -isms like environmentalism are also idol worship, and that the only thing that can save America from its moral drift is belief in Rabbi Shafran's fundamentalist version of God.
Rabbi Wasserman forbade students to leave Europe. He banned people from fleeing to America or Israel, turned down appointments and student slots at Yeshiva University meant to save him and his students because it was better to die rather than succumb to the idol worship he felt YU was, and otherwise impeded those around him from saving themselves, including taking help from the hated Zionists.
When Rabbi Wasserman finally realized that all the prayer and study would not save him or his students, it was too late. Forced to come up with a theology to deal with this, Rabbi Wasserman told his students to study and pray, not to fight or resist, and to go to the "altar" of the Nazi death machine pure and holy. We, Rabbi Wasserman said, are karbonot, sacrificial offerings. Our deaths will atone for the sins of our misguided American brothers and allow them to live.
Rabbi Wasserman was a failed human being, a man whose fundamentalism and blind faith caused many to suffer and die.
Rabbi Avi Shafran, while he will certainly disagree with my characterization of Rabbi Wasserman as "failed," certainly is aware that Rabbi Wasserman's wrath was largely directed at Israel and America, the 'treife medina.' Yet the spokesperson for Agudath Israel of America chose to publish his column on this nation's day of independence, the most sacred day, for want of a better term, this nation has.
America has been very good to us. We are full citizens, fully participating in civic life, free to be as religiously dogmatic as Rabbi Shafran or as adamantly secular as Christopher Hitchens and everything in between.
America deserves better than Rabbi Avi Shafran's deceit.
Again, you argue backward.
Many of those immigrants left Europe and left Orthodoxy at the same time. They had no intention of being frum. In other words, America did not change them – they left Europe for better living conditions and to get away from oppressive rabbis.
2/3 of warsaw was not Orthodox. 2/3. Yet, look at those people. Most had Orthodox - usually hasidic – parents. These people left Orthodoxy IN EUROPE, and they were the MAJORITY of Jews there.
Posted by: Shmarya | July 05, 2007 at 08:04 PM
Ed- if you apologize for the fact that orthodox jews blame reform jews for the holocaust I will apologize to you for offending you.
Posted by: Alex | July 05, 2007 at 08:07 PM
NOt true. Numerous people left to america to remain frum. Even rabbis came to america with the intention to remain frum and to lead congregations. Almost nothing remained from their children (even from chassidic families).
In Europe despite the brazing fire that caused them to look for different responses a whole third remained frum and large chassidic dynasties (in the thousands)and sacrificed their lives to live jewish.
In the usa the immediate children dropped kashrut shabbos and taharat hamishpocho and their third or fourth generation drastically assimilated to a state where the majority today assimilates whereas the percentage amongst those who retained the fire and stayed religous muchgreater percentage wise and the assimilation that exists in their circles in much much much smaller.
Posted by: avrohom | July 05, 2007 at 08:19 PM
Source?
Please. 2/3 of Warsaw not Orthodox, the majority of those born into hasidic homes.
People wanted to remain Orthodox in Europe. They wanted their children to be Orthodox. But it did not work out that way most of the time.
Many people gave up Orthodoxy in America. They did so for a variety of reasons, from the economic to the theological. When given the freedom of choice, Jews overwhelmingly reject Orthodoxy. This is true everywhere, every time that freedom has been given.
They do so in part because they grew up under a system of corruption, a system where rabbis and their children got while others did not. A system of bias and theft.
Some jews abandoned Orthodoxy after WW1, after seeing rabbis distribute relief supplies to their families and cronies with extreme favoritism.
But none of this matters here. The point is, Rabi Wasserman could have saved his students. He let them die instead.
Posted by: Shmarya | July 05, 2007 at 08:30 PM
fact is: aover 100,000 jews in pre war warsaw when everything was burning under their feet were religious!! (this is a tremndous feat); there were probably not even 5,000 jews in the usa who were . shomer shabbos, kashrut and tahrat hamishpcha.
The descendants of those who came to america and chose american lifestyle to the exclusion of jewish life have their jewish life abandoned and their descendants intermarried in large numbers.
The most important reason people left judaism in poland and russia truly was the trouble from outside and the inability to cope with them from within. The rest is your editorial and not objective as they were numerous and numerous factors, but the fact that those who chose to stay behind fare better in terms of keeping their jewish identity than their counterparts who chose america.
The most important point that is relvant TODAY right now: 1) that only those who continue to stick to keep shabbos kashrut and taharat hamishpocho and beleive in the jewish destiny and the G-d of ISrael will remain jewish; whereas those who choose to abandon these practices and beleifs and especially those who choose to mock and degrade these practices and beleifs and especially those who choose to paint ONLY with a negative brush the proponents of beleif and practice judaism, lose their jewish idenetiy and mroeover align themselves with those who hate juudaism and jews!
2) The other most important thing that matters and is relelvant RIGHT NOW: Those who will learn the lessons of prewar and strengthen jews who are under their worse enemies...the enemies of the people in Erets Yisroel...and they will learn to strnegthen the Jews who live there and who proptect all the inhabitants in Erets yisroel...and chas vesholom chas vecho9liloh those who commend the EXPULSION OF 9,000 JEWS! Those Jews who cling to the beleif and practice of Torah and Mitzvot hurrt and pain for the expulsion of those jews and they point out how the those who are bereft of this beleief lost all their jewish idnetity and did not solidarize with those families. The lesson right now is to avoid another mistake G-d forbid and there should be no more talk about the repeat opf that tragedy.
Incidentally it has been a Torah LEader of all Jewry the Lubavitcher rebbe who has wwarned all jewry for the past thre and a half decades almost alone in the wilderness and predicted exactly how one move will lead to arafat and hamstan! And ALL those who abandoned Judaism and Jewish beleifs and practices and were thrilled that there would "a new middle east order" and all the garbage that it entailed were those who pushed for the wanton murder of a over a tohusands jews in the past decade and the emergence of the terrorist groups emboldedned by the emergenece of regimes that support them finacialyl and militarily.
All the science and "enlightened" leaders have missed this tragedy in front of their eyes in the past decades. This is the most urgent call that all Jewry need to reflect upon and act upon. The combination of both elements: 1) The spiritual essential connection from a Jew to the G-d of ISrael through His torah and the connection with the protection of all Jews and especially the Jews in erets Yisroel is the most important calls of the day and all lessons of history should be geared towafrds this end.
Posted by: avrohom | July 05, 2007 at 09:25 PM
Rabbi Wasserman and his students were killed in the kovono ghetto when the germans attacked lithuania in june 1941.
By the way, the ONLY yeshiva that survived intact was the mirrer yeshiva. Some rosh yeshivas didn't think that the forged visas were valid.
One rosh yeshiva (i forget which one) called the visas "toilet paper". Most of his talmidim either died or was sent to siberia.
Posted by: malachhamovies | July 05, 2007 at 09:33 PM
The Mirrer was the only Litvishe yeshiva that survived. They are credited with this zechus by virtue of their hasmoda which was legendary and still is even in Brooklyn.
The Nitra yeshiva escaped from the Unterland and Frankfurt yeshiva escaped from Germany in the 1930s. Even the Frankfurter bochurim who were trapped in the no-man's land on the Polish border in 1936 or 37 were ransomed with money raised by the Kattowiczer rov so they could join the rest of the yeshiva that had escaped to England.
Posted by: | July 05, 2007 at 09:40 PM
I find it odd to say the least that Scott Rosenberg and UOJ have it in so badly for R' Elchonon when I know many of his students and acquaintances who escaped the Nazis without any help from him. Every single one of them holds Rav Wasserman in the highest esteem.
Baranovitch was the feeder to all the senior yeshivos like Mir, etc and even the Slonimer chassidishe crowd went there.
If Rav Wasserman was the demon that Shmarya wants you to believe, you would hear about it from people who are in the best position to know.
Posted by: | July 05, 2007 at 09:47 PM
Shmarya; Both my grandparents on my father's side were not frum in Vienna. My grandfather on my mother's side came from a Tchortkover Chassidic background, and had yichus from the Taz. He thought it was all oppressive and gave it up. He was mystified at why I was interested in traditional Judaism, although he accepted it. My mother's mother came from a traditional-observant background in Russia, and she remained traditional (but not as observant). So ancedotal evidence from my family bears out what you claim about European Jewry.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 05, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Yochanan,
You mother's mother who came from russia: Did she keep shabbos, kashrut and taharat hamishpacha in America?
Posted by: avrohom | July 05, 2007 at 10:30 PM
Yochanan,
And her children?
And her grandchildren: DO they keep shabbaas (not drive on shabbos), KAshrut and Taharat Hamishpacha?
Posted by: avrohom | July 05, 2007 at 10:31 PM
She lit candles, and kept kashrut. I doubt she kept taharat mishpacha. My grandmother said there was a sign in her sweatshop: "If you don't come to work on Sunday, don't bother showing up on Monday." Needless to say, shabbat went out the window. For that, you can blame Jewish sweatshop owners, not Reform or Conservative. I understand the concerns Wasserman and others had about life in America. But where there's life, there's hope. Had she stayed in the Russian Ukraine, she might have died, and not had me, who keeps shabbat.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 05, 2007 at 10:34 PM
My mother and her brothers were not raised religious, because my grandfather disliked the rabbinate. He wanted them to have a Jewish identity (which they have) but they went to Public Schools. However, the house was always kosher, and there was some semblence of shabbat. None of her grandchildren were raised Orthodox. I am the closest there is, and I am not even 100% Ortho. But they are alive and Jewish.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 05, 2007 at 10:38 PM
Are all grandchildren married to jews?
It's your prerrogative and others to claim "where there is lfie there is hope". But other's choice to claim the same "where there is jewish life there is hope" should also be respected. After all. their predictions with regards to the failure of america in those times to keep jewishly alive was materialized to the T. ANd many of them survived, russia' labor in siberia, aushwitz, and many unfortunately not IN their eyes they propeted jewish LIFE and jewish identity and they kept JUDAISM FOR GENERATIONSTO COME! their chidren are alive and JEWISH keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpacha and teahing these life values and practices to their brothers and sisters who by the thousands are returning to judaism TODAY. But the job is far from over and we have to reachout to every single jew and help him and her light his jewish flame!
Posted by: avrohom | July 05, 2007 at 11:12 PM
The bottom line is that Avi Shafran is using Rabbi Wasserman in a hypocritical way. It's the very 'ism' being called into question that has served Religious (with a capital R) Jewry so well in America.
I once got into a 'discussion' with a guy who started into the whole 'Easu hates Yakov' thing in condemning America and Britain for their WW2 actions. My points included the bizarre expectation that goyim should somehow be more (albeit selectively) altruistic than Jews. I then pointed out how the Western advocates for immigration had less in common with their Jewish subjects than the opponents. It was the liberal, secular among the Americans, Britons, Swiss, etc that fought for means to be implemented.
I lost the 'discussion' because in the end no logical argument can win against dogma.
A fair analogy would be, that if all of Judea had been able to fit in Mizada we wouldn't be here to have this discussion. 'Life' may be a metaphor for pious observance, but first and foremost it means to exist at all.
Posted by: Yos | July 06, 2007 at 12:20 AM
Why don't you all come on down to Aguda of Staten Island and have a talk with Shafran?
Posted by: anon | July 06, 2007 at 05:50 AM
Anon,
Good Point ! However, i have a better question. If he sees that he and his organization are constantly getting bashed then why can't he come over over to this blog and defend himself ? He's always writing in the secular jewish newspapers (which has a much lower readership then the blogs).
The answer is that he has orders from his superiors not to engage in a discussion with the bloggers whom they consider riff-raff.
Also, there is no point in discussing anything with Avi Shafran. Whether he believes in all the crap or not doesn't matter. He works for the agudah and he has to be loyal to his employer.
Also, the strength in the blogworld is the anonymity. People like Shmarya and others have been harrased and villified.
Not everyone can stand up to this hell.
Posted by: malachhamovies | July 06, 2007 at 07:43 AM
The most pressing things to the jewish community is something like this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3421839,00.html
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 08:11 AM
More Hogwash from Shmarya & Co back at the post on Rav Elyashev and cholent.
There is more than one item that Shmarya ignored or lost the argument on.
As far as the abridged "machzor", the same goes for the "siddur". Shmarya is not so uninformed to believe that only some piyutim were removed. The snake doesn't tell you that the regular nusach hatefilla has been tomahawked and the matbaya shetavu chachamim of the berochos have been altered in violation of the ancient curse from the Men of the Great Assembly.
Posted by: | July 06, 2007 at 08:35 AM
R Wasserman believed that as long as Jews were faithful to the Torah and performed mitvot, then they were safe (or safer then Jews who did not) as Hashem could nullify the evil intent of their enemies. This pre modern and simplistic attitude remains current in Haredi society. Any attempt to challenge this idea by rational argument is resisted by resort to either Hester Panim or that Hashem wanted six million gorbanoth for reasons we do not understand). A most elementary understanding of history shows that this simplistic idea is mistaken (and not unique amongst pre modern clerics) and that the rabbis who held this idea were wrong. That is why Haredim do not allow history to be taught. The most difficult lesson of the Holocaust is that the assimilated descendants of those Jews who abandoned their faith in the 19th Century are around in the 21st century whilst the descendants of those that held on to their faith were butchered in the most terrible way. Avrohom post seems to suggest that the later fate was preferable but I doubt most people would agree. These rabbis will never change their opinion against being rational and learning from history (as can be shown by their refusal to allow their flock to engage in normal economic activity notwithstanding that it is obvious to everyone but themselves that this will lead all the social problems associated with poverty). It is we as lay persons who must teach our children that they must be rational and to decide for themselves what is in their best interests.
Posted by: Barry | July 06, 2007 at 10:06 AM
Ed, Avrohom, and other haredim here, let me ask you this:
Isn't it accurate to say that according to most haredi leaders, it would have been better for American Jews who came here prior to WWII and did not maintain strict religiousity to have died in Europe instead of coming to the U.S.? Can we agree that is he haredi position?
Posted by: DK | July 06, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Are all grandchildren married to jews?
Avrohom, I am willing to disagree with you civilly, and even discuss my family. But your tone annoys me. I am not ashamed of them- the overwhelming majority of them are Jews married to Jews. Would you rather they became Glatt Kosher bars of Soap in Auschwitz but observed every jot and tittle? This is why I am against Wasserman.
My family escaped not only anti-Semitism, but what they (unfortunately) felt was the oppression of the rabbinate. It is easy to blame America, but the blame lies with those who alienate people.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 06, 2007 at 01:03 PM
please have respect for the gedolim. he has many chances to be saved he went back for his students.a selfless man and a true tzaddik
Posted by: ikes | July 06, 2007 at 01:07 PM
yochanan,
And your tone and attitude of this blog to villify in such terrible terms jewish leaders annoys me.
That you are against the position of Rabbi Wasserman is fine. Others feel that Rav Elchonon Wasserman was mekadesh shem shomayim by holding strong to Yiddishkeyt and in his opinion the steadfastness not to give in to assimilation and losing th jwish identity is the only thing that kept and will keep the continuity of the jewish identity and ironically will bring jewishness to the descendants of those who lost their jewish identity.
the talk of the "opporession of the rabbinate" (to the extent that this caused to "escape") on this blog smells of the declarations of the protocols of zion.
Those who are preoccupied not to alienate people should understand that it's a two way street. Having blogs making suchslanderous and defamatory statements of people like Rav Wasserman is obviously something that alienates and makes divisioons between the people, especially or those who should be concerend their descenants will intermarry!
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 03:36 PM
DK,
It is propably not as simplistic as you and many others make it.
1) Some didn't forsee the tragic outcome,
2)Some felt that we should try to leave to America,
3) Some felt that had they clung to judaism in europe (and not left to different secular winds: america, zionists according to some, commmunists, and others fads of the day) this would not happen.
4) Some may have felt the way you describe.
5) Some may feel that since we do not know the cheshbonoys of Hashemand since ultimately all Jews will return to Judaism that those who did come to America obvioulsy fall under the hidden plan of Hashem in that they wll fulfill their holy mission of gathering the sparks of america and bring it bakto G-d by ultimately members of their family rejoining their jewish heritage.
Good Shabbos
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 03:42 PM
While many here are so busy in villfying those who hold the torch and who observe the mitzvot of Hashem and call upon their emunah as "simplistic" and pre modernity should bring their attention to their blindness in their utpia as being "open minded" when in fact their ""openess" causes them to suffer of a terrible closed mindness disease which caused the loss of 1,000s of jewish lives in israel and thousands maimed and the emergence of arafat and hamas tan and the expulsion of jews from their homes.
Their hubris and arrogance stenches is unsupportable. Not only have they not repented for the pain and suffereing they caused ISrael, putting half the population in israel in bunkers last yerar, but they have the hubris of telling their bethern about their "closed mindness".
IT is time that they spend their time and energy to see to help their brethern in israel not to un dergo what they went through the last decade and stop defaming jews who put on tephillin and learn torah.
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 03:48 PM
Avrohom: Have a good shabbos. I understand you have a right to your feelings about rabbinic leadership, but be very careful about what you say about someone's family. That's very personal- more so than dissing a rabbi to whom you're not related.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 06, 2007 at 03:53 PM
when you say that people left russia andpoland because of "rabbinic oppression" and accuse and attack all the religious lifestyle of religious people, associating them with some diabolicplan to "oppress people it is highly offensive and personal to those people you are attacking.
And when someone and lots of people are discussing a particular heated issue and attackwith the most vile and sinister malicous cruelty (when in fact many of them were altruistic to lose their own lives as the present discussion and there were MANY OF THEM) you should not hinder the adversary to allow them to point out the alternative!
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 05:30 PM
to set it straight: this blog and the proponents is not only attacking rabbis; they are atacking with the most vicious and malicious assertions the people who follow torah and mitsvot.
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 05:37 PM
to set it straight: this blog and the proponents is not only attacking rabbis; they are atacking with the most vicious and malicious assertions the people who follow torah and mitsvot.
Posted by: avrohom | July 06, 2007 at 05:37 PM
Time to deconstruct the secular lies put forth by Barry.
" ... as long as Jews were faithful to the Torah and performed mitvot, then they were safe (or safer then Jews who did not) as Hashem could nullify the evil intent of their enemies. This pre modern and simplistic attitude remains current in Haredi society. Any attempt to challenge this idea by rational argument is resisted by resort to either Hester Panim or that Hashem wanted six million gorbanoth for reasons we do not understand). A most elementary understanding of history shows that this simplistic idea is mistaken (and not unique amongst pre modern clerics) and that the rabbis who held this idea were wrong. That is why Haredim do not allow history to be taught."
If anything the Kadmonim (Ancient ones) had a much better grasp of reality by virtue of being closer to Sinai. The ilk of Barry and Shmarya who try to brainwash the general public into accepting their anti-Torah poison will never accept concepts such as Andralamusia, a powerful force of destruction that does not distinguish between innocent and evil victims (see Rashi in Noach in the name of Chazal). It is precisely the sins of those such as Shmarya's crew that contribute to the kav (measure) of sin filling up that G-d will no longer tolerate.
It is futile to argue with heretics such as Shmarya and co who will never accept the truth. This is only for the benefit of much of the readership.
"The most difficult lesson of the Holocaust is that the assimilated descendants of those Jews who abandoned their faith in the 19th Century are around in the 21st century whilst the descendants of those that held on to their faith were butchered in the most terrible way."
While the assimilated Jews faced the same fate if caught by the Nazis, a spiritual Holocaust such as what happened in the early days in America is even more tragic in G-d's eyes.
The Chashmonaim taught us that although one is allowed to give his life al kiddush Hashem when the goyim come to cause harm, it is different if the goyim, such as the ancient Greeks, are trying to shmad or take away our spirituality. In such a case, a Jew must fight to the death and not give up under any circumstance.
Posted by: | July 06, 2007 at 05:58 PM
From UOJ:
The following letter was written by R. Wasserman from Toledo, Ohio, in 1938, to a young student (R. Elchonon Hertzman, from Mir and later of New York) requesting his help in escaping the Nazis. It's a famous letter written shortly before WWII:
1. "I received your letter, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do. The yeshivos in America which can bring talmidim from overseas are the yeshivah of Dr. Revel (YU) and [HTC in Chicago]. However, both are places of spiritual danger because they are run in a spirit of disloyalty to the Torah. Therefore, of what benefit would it be to escape [Europe] from physical danger to spiritual danger."
The letter is quoted in Hebrew in the excellent and inspiring Art Scroll history series book: Reb Elchonon: The Life and Ideals of Rabbi Elchonon Bunim Wasserman of Baranovich by Aharon Sorski.I do not want to give the impression that R. Wasserman was being heartless. Later on in the letter, he refers the talmid to Rabbi Shlomo Hymen at Torah Va Das (where Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky was Rosh Yeshiva) in Brooklyn, who will help.
Another good book: Silver Era in American Jewish Orthodoxy: Rabbi Eliezer and His Generation by Aaron Rakeffet-Rothkoff.
There were only two Torah sages willing to stand up to YU before WWII. R. Wasserman and R. Aharon Kotler. YU sent over the pious rabbi (R. Henkin, good friend of R. Moshe Feinstein, grandfather of the R. Henkin (Nishmat feminist leader) training these putatively Orthodox women rabbis) to R. Wasserman to bring him to YU.
Torah scholar Amitai Bin-Nun writes: "I'm ashamed to admit reading this blog, especially in its current state, but I recall this letter (not to escape Europe to go to YU) being quoted in Aaron Rakeffet-Rothkoff's book "Bernard Revel: Builder of American Orthodoxy", so it should be easily verifiable. The other Yeshiva, if I recall correctly, was HTC in Skokie.
Posted by: george | July 06, 2007 at 06:30 PM
As far as the post from UOJ, readers should refer to UOJ's blog and see the comments and questions from readers. There were some good questions that UOJ wouldn't or couldn't answer.
Posted by: | July 06, 2007 at 06:33 PM
when you say that people left russia andpoland because of "rabbinic oppression" and accuse and attack all the religious lifestyle of religious people, associating them with some diabolicplan to "oppress people it is highly offensive and personal to those people you are attacking.
Idiot. I am by far the most observant person in my family. I don't attack "all the religious people-" many Orthos are my close friends and I still go to an MO synagogue. I even argue with Alex about attacking all Orthodox Jews, rather than those who misbehave.
I don't believe in any diabolical plans- I was just relating what my grandfather felt. He was a proud ethnic Jew who ran from observance because of frummer than thou rabbis. I wish he had stayed more observant, but it's his life.
Leave me and my family the fuck alone, you fukcing asshole.
Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | July 09, 2007 at 10:27 PM
As one who learned from R. Simcha Wasserman and therefore indirectly from R. Elchonon, I object to the denigrating comments on his behalf.
I was NEVER given the impression that R. Simcha ever doubted the greatness or sincerity of his father, or of his father's love for his students. Quite the opposite!
Regards,
Avi
Posted by: avi | July 12, 2007 at 03:16 PM
I was NEVER given the impression that R. Simcha ever doubted the greatness or sincerity of his father, or of his father's love for his students.
That's a straw man argument. No one says the Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman was inscinsere or that he did not care for his students.
What people are saying is that Rabbi Wasserman's zealotry, willfull blindness and messianism led to the deaths of those students, just as it led to his own death.
Posted by: Shmarya | July 12, 2007 at 05:05 PM