OU Lies, Meat Hook Was Used

 

Screen shots from the new PETA video of slaughter in Rubashkin's Agriprocessors Local Pride plant in Gordon, Nebraska. The top picture is later in the sequence, the bottom a few frames earlier, showing a clean meat hook just before insertion into the animal's neck. Please click to enlarge.

"It is not a meat hook! It is not a meat hook!"
            –Rabbi Seth Mandel, head of shechita for the OU.

"It is a meat hook!"
            –Dr. Temple Grandin, noted animal welfare and slaughter expert.

Truth-telling is not one of Rabbi Seth Mandel's strong points.

Comments

[george]

Naaaaahhhh. Rabbis lie?

[Alex]

Now its time for the next episode of Superman on the haredi telepathic cable chanel.

In our last episode, Superman got cooties from kissing Lous Lane, so in this episode, the Rabbis prepared a mikva filled with chulent instead of water. Superman dunked in and the mystical effect of the chullent caused much pain to him as his cooties was being cured.

Sveral weeks passed and Superman and Louis Lane got close again after Supermans brief attempt at being haredi.

Lex Luthor then opens up * omg * a FACTORY at an orthodox neighborhood in Metropolis, where Lex Luthor can get cheap labor, and the orthodox who hate college can get j-o-b-s.

Everyone is supposed to be happy right? not the haredim. The haredim then calls on Superman to investigate the factory. Half of it is open to the public and half of it is not.

So, Superman sneaks into the other half, and what does he see? A lab, where Luthor's scientists are working on a cheeseburger monster to make everything traif!

Not wasting a second, Superman dived in and punched the cheezeburger monster, but the cheeseburger monster was able to hit him back hard.

To Be Continued

Will Superman be able to defeat the cheeseburger monster, and implicate Lex Luthor for it?

Remember to eat your chulent to be on the level to receive transmissions from the haredi telepathic cable tevision network!

[Michael Croland]

This and your previous post were right on target. Thank you for getting to the bottom of this when nobody else will.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I'd like to see Shmarya do a follow up with Rabbi Mandel and discuss what the photographs clearly show.

[John K. Diamond]

Michael,

Would consideration of a class action suit against the OU, on behalf of the Kosher consuming public, who have been deceived for years, be warranted?

[Chaim Yankel]

John -

Are you kidding?

The OU certifies food as Kosher, you have nothing that proves that they did anything but that.

Using a meat hook, or not, does not make the meat any more or less Kosher, based on OU standards, so they haven't decieved anyone.

Why would you even float such a silly thought in public?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Why would you even float such a silly thought in public?

It's only my opinion, but I think its stems from the idea that schechita is the most humane way of slaughtering an animal. One hears this argument advanced over and over. The thing is, I'm not sure who propagated this idea in the first place.

Does anyone know if the OU has ever asserted that schechita is the most humane method of killing an animal?

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I've answered my own question. Yes, the OU maintains that shechita is the most humane method of slaughter.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

And another follow up interview with Temple Grandin. Does she realize that she has been exploited by Rubashkin, the OU, etc.? Autistic people can have a tendency to naivete and can have difficulty understanding others motives. When Dr. Grandin went to Postville last year and gave Rubashkin a passing grade, she probably did not realize that she was being used to distract from the worker exploitation and price fixing issues that were then being reported in the Forward and Jewish Week. She needs to understand that the OU and Rubashkin are only using her to their own ends if they were to invite her back again, whether to Gordon, Postville, or Uruguay, to get her seal of approval.

P.S. Why are the faces rubbed out in the above pictures, unlike in the PETA video?

[Michael Croland]

John,

I think this situation needs to be remedied, but I don't see a class action lawsuit as the solution. I'd be interested to hear more about this idea if it delevops, though.

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Michael,

It would not be difficult to justify a class action lawsuit against the OU on behalf of the Kosher Consuming Public for the following reasons.

1. From the time that the Jews entered the promised land (~1400 BCE) until the developement of cruel and intensive treatment of animals in the livestock trade (~1900 CE), a period of ~3300 years, Jewish treatment of animals raised for food followed both the written and oral Kosher laws as set down in the Torah and codified in the Shulchan Aruch.

2. The OU and others deviated from this longstanding Torah-True system in the previous century to, mistakenly, satisfy the "carnivorous gluttony" infecting American Jewry and for self-serving greed. [Carnivorous Gluttony is a Torah Violation (Quail Affair)].

3. The preceeding change has increased the suffering and pain of untold millions of animals, not decreased it.

4. The Torah law of T'zaar Ba'allei Chayim mandates that we must minimize the pain and suffering to animals if we are to use them for food, not increase it.

5. Because the OU and others have condoned the violation of Torah Law, for almost a century, regarding treatment of food animals and have put their Kosher Certifications on animal foods that simply were not Kosher, the Kosher Consuming Public has been deceived for all this time.

There a probably many other valid reasons, as well, but these are just some off the top of my hat.

John Diamond is getting carried away with his one track agenda. Consumption of meat is not the problem as he would have you believe. It is the OU looking the other way with Rubashkin abuses that is the problem.

Even a nazir who swears off meat must later bring a sacrifice to atone for abstaining from the good that G-d provides in this world.

[John K. Diamond]

To :

You are not correct.

Consumption of "Unkosher Meat" and the OU's Chillul Hashem in knowingly making this available to the Kosher Consuming Public is the problem.

My entire statemement stands.

[Garnel Ironheart]

I think a small point is being missed: Shechita, when done properly, is about as humane as you can get in terms of slaughtering animals. But the shechita part of the process ends when the knife finishes cutting. What's done to the animal after that is part of cruelty to animals but not the slaughtering process al pi halachah. It is this fine differentiation that would allow the OU to correctly state that the animals are slaughtering in a kosher fashion.
The problem is that while a defective shechita renders the animal non-kosher, mutilating after that doesn't. This has to do with the cruelty of the people involved, not shechita.

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Garnel,

Just another small point:

Shechitah ends when the animal has bled out and died, not when the initial cut is made. In properly conducted shechitah, as witnessed by Dr. Temple Grandin in other kosher slaughterhouses, the animal is dead in less than one minute.

Kosher shechitah law, in fact, prohibits the touching of an animal after the cut until the animal is dead.

The Rubaskin facility in Nebraska is conducted failed schechitah, as the animals are still alive for up to two minutes.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

The problem is that while a defective shechita renders the animal non-kosher, mutilating after that doesn't. This has to do with the cruelty of the people involved, not shechita.

Exactly. And that leaves us with two things:

1) Possible violation of U.S. regulations against processing the animal before the animal is dead.

2) Causing pain to an animal by manipulating internal structures with a meat hook.

[steve]

Lying to the OU by now is second nature. They have been doing it for years regarding chalav akum, Le Marais and Rubashkin. They will say whatever is necessary to maintain the status quo and not lose these lucrative accounts. According to their interpretation of the halacha, the danger of losing an account overrides all the laws of kashrus and lying. It is mamash pikuach nefashos.

[John K. Diamond]

Thank you, Steve, for your remarks.

The Kashrut Administration of the OU is a horrible evil in our midst and there is a Torah Law that "You are to eradicate evil in your midst."

A class action lawsuit against the Kashrut Administration of the OU, as posted earlier, may be one, of many ways, to accomplish this end.

It is important, however, that we distinguish the OU's Kashrut Administration from the rest of the OU, which does very valuable work for the Jewish people.

[MO MAN]

Using a hook prior to shechita, can cause damage to the trachea and the esophogus rendering the animal a neveilah.

Once an organization is caught lying repeatedly, trusting them for anything is "shame on us"

John Diamond, I said that Rubashkin abuses are the problem, which would include any distribution of non-kosher meat falsely labeled as kosher.

I took issue with your sweeping definition of gluttony which appears to include kosher meat consumption.

[John K. Diamond]

To :

We would appreciate it if you would identify yourself to FM readers. Hiding your identity violates the rules of FM.

Carnivorous gluttony is forbidden by Torah Law (Please read, in depth, the quail affair in Bamidbar) and note that this prohibition was given BEFORE Jews were given permission in Devarim, to slaughter animals for food outside the Central Sanctuary.

This sin was almost unknown among the Jewish people until the advent of the modern day cruel "factory farming" system, which the OU and others, bought into lock, stock and barrel almost 100 years ago.

Rubashkin gets away with his sins because the OU and USDA permit it.

We can't do very much to reform a corrupt US Government agency, but we can, and must do something about the sins and lies of the OU Kashrut Administration.

[Shmarya]

Kosher shechitah law, in fact, prohibits the touching of an animal
after the cut until the animal is dead.

John, do you have a HALAKHIC source for this statement? I know of no halakha that says this.

[John K. Diamond]

Check with Chief Rabbi Saks of the UK.

In the UK. their shechitah does not permit an animal to be touched after the cut until it is dead.

You have said as much earlier in one of the blogs on this subject.

Maybe, this is a strigency that they have adopted in addition to Halacha.

If this is so, then I stand corrected.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

I have many friends who have made the choice to become non-meat eaters and I've had many interesting long discussions and debates with them about their choices. I believe I understand the various motivations for such a diet choice pretty well. John K. Diamond and Michael Croland have a clear agenda as vegetarian/vegans. They have a right to their opinions and choices and I respect that right.

However, what they don't seem to understand, despite being told this (especially John) numerous times on this blog, is that their personal diet choices, for the most part, place them outside of the arena of discussion and debate regarding kosher meat. These battles need to be fought, for the most part, by kosher meat-eating consumers that must rise up and demand accountability of both producers and kashruth supervision agencies.

John, simply put, your positions are suspect because of your clearly stated ultimate goal - to promote non-meat diet choice. You're also constantly posting without saying anything new, which grows annoying. How about you state your positions clearly, and then let others have their say without you using every post as an excuse to restate your well-known positions?

[John K. Diamond]

Hi Neo,

I do not have any other hidden agenda in my posts on this blog other than to insist that OU-Kosher be EQUAL to Torah-True Kosher, as it MUST BE.

If the OU continues to behave like it's doing, a class action suit against the OU Kashrut Administration may well take place.

I respect and defend the right of meat-eating Jews to eat Torah-True Kosher meat as strongly as I encourage, not demand, people to eliminate animal foods in their diet. This is a stated consistent position of mine, that has been posted numerous times on FM, dating back to 2004.

Please refrain from posting any more comments to the contrary.

"John ... constantly posting without saying anything new, which grows annoying."

Amen to that.

His position on the Torah prohibiting gluttony has no basis in fact. It does not extend to modernizing the farm to dinner plate system. It only pertains to individuals who personally abuse their consumption. Yes, meat was first prohibited then made permissible, but it is still permissible.

There are humane ways to "factory farm", something that Rubashkin couldn't care less about.

"Please refrain from posting any more comments to the contrary."

Sounds like we have a bossy reader here who is very adamant in his demands from others.

The Torah encourages meat consumption for the Sabbath and Festivals. John's agenda is not compatible unless he is a Kabbalist but he certainly has no business getting in other people's way.

A nazir brings a sacrifice to atone for abstaining from meat.

The latest report on terrorism handed to President Bush from the collective of security advisors focuses mainly on al Qaeda but mentions a growing threat from the Animal Liberation Front.

[steve]

Let's focus on the culprits here, Rubashkin and their enablers. Please stop this petty back and forth banter.

[Richard Schwartz]

Yes, Jews certainly have a choice re their diets, but shouldn't that choice be made after considering the realities of the production and consumption of animal-products and how they violate basic Jewish mandates to preserve our health, treat animal compassionately, protect the environment, conserve natural resources, help hungry people and avoid committing a chillum Hashem.

I respect people's choices, but I try to make people aware of the importance of shifting away from animal-based diets, because it is increasingly clear that the fate of humanity is at stake, as the raisng of about 56 billion animals worldwide for slaughter annually is contributing to global climate change, widening water shortages, rapid species extinction, destruction of rainforests and other valuable habitats and many more environmental threats, not to mention the epidemic of diseases that are afflicting Jews and others.

In addition to considering the last few minutes of animals lives, perhaps we should also consider the catstrophe facing Israel, according to a very recent Israel Union of Environmental Defense Report, which projects a decrease of 20-39 percent in rainfall for already water-short Israel, severe storms, far hotter summers and an innundation of much of Israel by a rising Mediterranean Sea.

I have worked with John Diamond for several years and I completely support his reasoned approach to the situation.

Under current conditions of massive animal abuses and uncertainties in the slaughtering process and with many other problems, how do you justify eating meat today.

How about an open dialogue/debate to educate Jews on the realities.

Kol tuv,

Richard

==========

[Richard Schwartz]

Re the posting on terror, according to a recent report by 11 retired US admirals and generaals, by causing severe droughts, storms, floods and wildfires, global warming increases the number of refugees and hence the prospects for instability, violence, terrorism and war. Since animal-based diets increase greenhouse gas emissions, an important way to reduce terrorism is to switch toward plant-based diet.

[Concerned]

I was wondering if anyone had seen a site called www.torahuniverse.com If anyone has I was wondering what they thought of it? It seems a little whacko too me, but I am not a very literate person when it comes to things like that, would someone post some feedback here. By the way, I think we should all donate huge sums to PETA and anyone willing to fight the slaughterhouses owned by rubishkam (spelling)

[steve]

We should write to the US Attorney General and outline all the Rubashkin abuses including cruelty to animals, abuse of workers, hiring practices, false labelling, consumer fraud, etc. I'm sure that Shmarya has the long laundry list. If the feds don't shut them down for good, they will at least impose hefty fines and will keep a closer watch on their future activities. We surely can't rely on the kashrut agencies to do their job, so we have no choice but to turn to the government. Sounds all too familiar.

[Yoelish]

JOHN WE ARE WITH YOU

its about time we stand up and demand the OU to cut their crap in kashrus
we want a kashrus is 100% shulcan oruach and no crap of rabbis ruling different then the vision of the shulchan oruch no excuses

why dairy can't all the dairy's be chulov yisrael ??

why can't all the fishes be processed with a 100% supervision of a rabbi ??

why can't all the baked goods be bishul yisrael ??

why can't the kosher meat industry be shut down totally with transportation on shabbes??

i want to know how any leader in the OU can sleep by night or take any vacation when they have operations of kashrus of over 5,000,000.00 products ??

and why is the all other allegations there is on kashrus today not solved yet?

Do you really want the answer?

OU rabbis are jews that live like gentiles and thats why their supervision is not cholov yisrael or bishul yisrael etc. thats the best answer for all the corruption

there is no middle are you jewish or not?
if you are jewish then you do the best to fallow the shulchan oruch - and if you do not try to live according to the shulchan oruch then your efforts is to live like a gentile

JOHN YOU ARE 100% RIGHT WE THE KOSHER CONSUMER ARE RESPONSIBLE TO MAKE THE DIFFERENCE IN KASHRUS

we all no very very very well that if not the 100's of loopholes the OU has established then 95% of the products they supervise now would not have be kosher at all

a Mashgiach

[steve]

Yoelish, I agree with you 100%. There is no such thing as half kosher or extra kosher. A product is either kosher or it's treife. There is no reason why the OU can't send their mashgichim to the dairy farms to find out the truth about DA cows. They refuse to do so because a)they want to save money, b)because they are afraid of the truth (that the milk that they are "supervising" is all treife), and c)because they want to "protect" the cholov yisroel companies.

They prefer this set up of multiple kashrut standards because they figure that they have their customer base secured with the naive Jews that swear by the OU label. They figure that they can feed them anything they throw at them, whether it's Rubashkin, or Le Marais or chalav akum, etc. Meanwhile, all these different "standards" are causing irreparable damage to families and communities that are being torn apart because certain family members won't eat OU and others will only eat OU. The typical frum Jew equates OU-D with treife. I once saw a kid leave a grocery store disappointed because "all they have is OU-D candy and ice cream". The OU is very happy with this set up, as long as they keep collecting their paychecks. They will keep closing their eyes and create smoke screens such as sefeikos that don't exist and mashgichim that are never present. The other thousand or so alphabet soup agencies are no better. I only pick on the OU because they used to be the "gold standard". They are still the gold standard when it comes to pocketing $$$$$, but that's about it.

[steve]

OU rabbis are jews that live like gentiles and thats why their supervision is not cholov yisrael or bishul yisrael etc. thats the best answer for all the corruption

OU rabbis are like the Cuthim of old. The gemara Chulin, daf 3a states that a Cuthi (Jews that did not believe in the oral law but were meticulous in written law) should not shect l'katchila, but if he shechted b'dieved, we test him to see if he shechted properly. If he eats from the meat, then we can assume that he shechted properly and the meat is kosher. If he refuses, then the meat is considered treife. Rashi says that the reason we do this is because the Cuthim do not believe that it's against the Torah to cheat another Jew, because they take the commandment of "do not but a stumbling block in front of a blind person" literally and apply it only to blind people and stumbling blocks.

Similarly, we should test the OU rabbis, particularly their "spiritual advisers". I guarantee you that they will not touch a Rubashkin product, eat at Le Marais or partake of any chalav stam product. If they tell you that they personally hold by "higher standards", then that proves that the OU is corrupt and that their symbol is meaningless.

[Shmarya]

I disagree 100%. Neither of you has any idea how to pasken a halakha. That is absolutely clear.

The OU's failings have nothing to do with non-pas yisroel cake, etc.

The OU's failings with Rubashkin are that the OU leaves its supervision on Rubashkin products when the cruelty and violations are done largely on the watch of HAREDIM.

The Rav HaMachshir at Rubashkin in Rabbi Wiessmandl. Before that it was a GErrer hasid Rabbi Kohn who was the representative of the KAJ.

The OU keeps its brand on Rubashkin meat. That is its failing, not certifying non-halav yisrael milk.

BTW, using the standards of "Reb Yoilish" and Steve, most of the Tosafists, the Haccmei Provence, and other Rishonim ate triefe and were "cuthim."

[Rina]

My grandfather, he should rest in peace, was a Kosher butcher. He had told me decades ago about the corruption of the OU. He would roll over in his grave if he saw these (PETA) videos.

Like John Diamond, I defend the right of people to eat (truly) Kosher meat, in spite of the fact that I am a vegan. The problem is, Rubashkin's is NOT Kosher meat ... and something MUST be done about it. A class-action suit is brilliant!

[John K. Diamond]

I personally want to thank Richard Schwartz, Yoelish, Steve and Rina for posting supportive comments.

I also very respectfully ask Shmarya to have an offline correspondence with Steve and Yoelish to iron out any differences of opinion they may have.

Airing differences of opinion on perhaps fine points of Halacha detract from the flow of meaningful discussion and defocus us from concentrating on the main challenge that the current Rubashkin Shechitah Scandal has presented:

How are we best going to see to it that the entire Kosher Animal Industries are reformed so that ALL of the Torah Laws and Halacha, as codified in the Shuchan Aruch are enforced.

[Ma Rabbi]

I am glad to see that there are readers here who do care about Cholev Yisroel, Pas Yisroel, and Bishul Yisroel. BY the way these are all laws brought down in Shulchan Aruch not extra stringincies.

[Stephen Mendelsohn]

BS"D

Atlanta Falcons QB Michael Vick, indicted on charges of conspiracy involving interstate dogfighting, must be envying the Rubashkins. Is cruelty to animals wrong only when "goyim" are caught, and particularly if the offender is dark-skinned, but if haredim do things just as cruel, its "antisemitic" to hold them responsible?

[Joanne]

WHEN KOSHER MEAT IS NOT “KOSHER”

I am a mostly vegetarian observant Jew. But when I do eat meat, I do not buy Kosher meat. I feel that the slaughter of animals in non-Kosher meat facilities in the U.S. is a more humane treatment of animals, since they are rendered immediately unconscious by electrical stunning. Although Shechita also can be performed humanely, there is no guarantee that this occurs in U.S. Kosher slaughterhouses with OU inspection.

In fact, “Kosher” actually means “fit” or “proper.” Thus, I believe that if the meat we consume is truly fit or Kosher, we must ensure that the animals that supplied that meat live and die humanely. Clearly the atrocities demonstrated at Agriprocessors and Local Pride violate tza’ar ba’alei hayyim, the Torah mandate against causing pain to animals. Thus I consider the meat from such processors to be treife.

When the spirit of the law becomes as important as the letter of the law with regards to Shechita, I will once again consider purchasing Kosher meat. Meanwhile, I look forward to alternate certifications, such as the tzedek hechsher initiative, so that “Kosher” can truly “answer to a higher standard.”

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"I am glad to see that there are readers here who do care about Cholev Yisroel, Pas Yisroel, and Bishul Yisroel. BY the way these are all laws brought down in Shulchan Aruch not extra stringincies."

Uh, it depends on how you define your terms. These ideas are rabbinic strictures, not Torah mitsvoth. If modern "rabbis" had any beitsim, they would do away with them rather than work around them as is commonly done. Bishul is commonly ignored among otherwise very observant Jews I know, and Pat is close behind. Do you eat lox (aka salted fish) - prepared by non-Jews and not constantly supervised? If so, you may be transgressing one of those very same gezeroth...!

[John K. Diamond]

Joanne,

Thanks for your very helplful post!!

We have to try to keep this discussion focused on the main issue:

How are we best going to see to it that the entire Kosher Animal Industries are reformed so that ALL of the Torah Laws and Halacha, as codified in the Shulchan Aruch are enforced.

We have folks posting on this site claiming that vegetarian Jews should have no part in this issue, that such is the sole job of meat-eating Jews. It's nothing but a bunch of bullsh-t, to put it frankly.

John Diamond shows his true colors by praising the woman who fresses on treif. The poser should stop pretending he believes in Torah values.

Where is the study from the former military officers? The Wall Street Journal editorial board and many reputable scientists believe "global warming" is a scam fed by the hysteria mill of the likes of Al Gore and Michael Moore.

[steve]

Shmarya,

I agree that the animal cruelty issue should be enough for the OU to remove their hashgacha. I was merely adding the many kashrut issues at Rubashkin that are being ignored. As far as the cholov akum issue, they are ignoring the DA problem instead of properly supervising the farms. To me and other kosher consumers, this is totally irresponsible and unacceptable.

[John K. Diamond]

Again :, please identify yourself or you may be blocked from posting.

Joanne will have to speak for herself, but who's worse, someone who eats meat from animals given more humane treatment than Rubashkin during slaughter, or one to eats Rubashkin meat, where sloppy, failed Shechitah is the norm and live animals are being tortured?

[steve]

who's worse, someone who eats meat from animals given more humane treatment than Rubashkin during slaughter, or one who eats Rubashkin meat,

Zeh neveila vezeh tereifa. What Joanne eats and doesn't eat is her own personal choice. The point that she was making is that meat taken from abused animals should not be eaten, even when it's labelled "kosher".