Let Them Have More Babies?!

Ha'aretz reports:

In an effort to boost the number of ultra-Orthodox men in the workforce, the Finance Ministry is proposing an exemption from mandatory military service for married yeshiva students over the age of 23 who have a minimum of two children.…

That's right. If haredim can get married and have two children by age 24, they're home free.

While this may put more haredim in the workforce, which is the aim of this proposal, more than likely it will mean more haredi babies. Why? Because Lithuanian haredim now marry relatively later than Yerushalmi and hasidic haredim, who marry at 17 or 18. But, with this new law in effect, the incentive will be for Lithuanian haredim to marry three of four years earlier. Their birthrate will increase as a result, increasing the over all number of haredim and making the demographics released last week even worse. This horrendous proposal will also gut the already paltry number of haredim who do serve in the IDF.

Israel's National Religious, Modern Orthodox and Secular population will continue to pay with blood while haredim get off free.

May God help us.

Comments

[Garnel Ironheart]

Hang on, aren't these people confusing two separate things? How does exempting them from army sevice make them want to actually legally go to work?

[Isa]

I think what is going on is, instead of being in the yeshiva to escape being drafted- they need only to have two children to escape the draft. Now they don't have to be in the yeshiva to escape the draft.

[Anon]

I think that your cause and effect analysis is wrong. All that will happen is that Lithuanian haredim will just have to stay in yeshivas a couple of years longer than their non-Lituanian counterparts which they would probably do anyway. Overall, I think this is a good proposal when compared to the current status. You may prefer that they be required to serve in the army but that option doesn't seem to be on the table for now. (There have been proposals to allow haredim to perform certain national services instead of serving in the IDF but those haven't gone anywhere either.) The only question I have is whether this will create a loophole that others will take advantage of and what the net effect will be on the IDF. But the concept of getting people who shouldn't be in yeshiva in the first place out into the workplace is a good idea.

I must also say that your comment has a population control undertone that has biggoted connotations to it that many, at least here in the U.S., would find objectionable.

[Shmarya]

I must also say that your comment has a population control undertone that has biggoted connotations to it that many, at least here in the U.S., would find objectionable.

Their leaders tell them not to work and to have lots of babies. Who pays for those babies? The non-haredim who work and pay taxes.

Their leaders tell them not to serve in the army. Who does serve? Non-haredim.

In other words, who is forced to pay for and protect people who INTENTIONALLY refuse to work or help protect themselves and others? Non-haredim.

It is not bigoted to try to limit the birthrate legally of a group that behaves in this fashion. No one is demanding forced sterilization of mandatory abortions. All we want to do is to remove as many incentives as possible to the slothful, parasitic behavior mandated by haredi rabbis.

[Anon]

"It is not bigoted to try to limit the birthrate legally of a group that behaves in this fashion."

I'm sorry but depending on how this is presented it is bigoted. People used to say the exact same thing here in the U.S. about Blacks. And yes, they also claimed to not bigotted but dealing with unfortunate facts.

[Shmarya]

Except that balck leaders did not issue fatwas commanding blacks to have lots of babies, not work and collect welfare.

The two situations are not equivalent.

[Anon]

--The two situations are not equivalent.--

They are not. But the your reaction is.

[C-G]

Y'know, it's not just haredim who use these kinds of tactics to get out of doing their service: (Warning: not tsnius, bocherim!- but now you really have to click, right?)

http://www.starblogs.net/archives/2006/04/bar_refaeli.html

[Shmarya]

--The two situations are not equivalent.--

They are not. But the your reaction is.

I know this is difficult for you, but try to work this through:

1. The situations are NOT equivalent, as you agree.

2. Therefore, reactions from different individuals to different situations that are not equivalent may be the same – but the reasons for their similarity may ahve nothing in common.

3. Example: David Duke dislikes Michael jackson because he is black. I dislike Michael jackson because (allegedly) he abuses children. We both dislike Michael Jackson. But our reasons are wholly different.

Got that?

[Yochanan Lavie]

I am against a culture of entitlement, whether it benefits African Americans or Chareidim. (That being said, most blacks do in fact work- the minority of them give a bad rep to the whole race.) And there are Chareidim who do work, pay taxes, and even serve in Tzahal. Those are the Chareidim I respect, even if I respectfully disagree with their hashkafah.

[emeslyaakov]

Shmarya, once again your antisemitism shines through. Do you live in Israel? Do you live in the US? Did you serve in the US army? Did your father?

In the early part of the 20th century, there was a famine in Israel. the zionists stole the money which was sent from chutz la'aretz to Israel for the support of the Torah scholars. This is how the zionists seized control of the yishuv. Some rabbonim, such as Rav Tsvi Pesach Frank were forced through starvation to sell out and join the rabbanute captive to the zionists.

At the foundation of the state of Israel, Ben gurion made a deal with the Chazon Ish and the Brisker Rav to exempt yeshiva students from military service as well as certain other things (collectively called the status quo agreement) so that there would not be public wall to wall hareidi opposition to the creation of the state. This was necessary for ben Gurion, because the UN accepted the creation of a so called Jewish state because a) they felt guilty about the holocaust and b) they recognized that G-d gave israel to the Jewish people, and by that they meant the people who keep the Jewish religion. If all of the leaders of the true Jews had opposed ben Gurion's state publicly, he couldn't have gotten it.

Therefore there was a contract made, there was consideration and detrimental reliance. Now one side does not have the right to change the deal without the agreement of the other side. (If you don't believe in the Torah, do you at least believe in the holiness of (lehavdil) contract law?)

As for the army itself - the head of the entire army was convicted of sexual crimes against a subordinate. Just recently another colonel was stripped of his rank for sex crimes.

Over the last two weeks, the army has again been involved in stealing Jewish land in Hevron.

They just this week destroyed a synogoue on har grizim.

Two years ago they stole the Jewish land of 8,000 Jewish army going citizens with vicious atrocities. In Amona also the police committed a pogrom against Jews.

Why would any Jew want to be in the army of the leftist enemies of the Jews?

I personally think that the real Jewish people should have their own Jewish army, and that no mechal'lei Shabbes should be allowed to carry weapons.

As for the Torah requirements, the talmidei chachomim are exempt from paying tax for the purposes of shemirah, and they are exempt from doing the shemirah itself.

As for work and taxes, everyone in Israel pays a huge amount of taxes - sales tax of 17% is built into everything. Everyone pays property tax (very high). Renters pay the property tax here.

As for hareidim not working, who do you think runs all of those hareidi stores that you see everywhere? Who do you think is doing the grunt work in the high tech. industry? Plenty of Hareidim work. What subsidies do hareidim get? 700 shekels per month for someone who learns full time in collel (less than $175) and a greatly lessened amount of kitzvat yeladim (child support payments). these subsidies are miniscule compared to the subsidies for the parasitic kibbutim who have failed econimically for at least the past 30 years.

Any gap between these miniscule amounts that hareidim get from the government and what they need to live is made up for by other hareidim who give the money freely.

Hareidi schools, even those which have a full secular education such as the Beis Yaakov schools, do not get equal funding with the antireligious schools.

My own political views: I am, at least for nonjewish countries a complete Libertarian. (I ran for Congress once on the Linertarian ticket.) As such, I am opposed to all subsidies and all taking of money from those who earned it to give to those who didn't.

If all subsidies were eliminated, including to colleges an college students, musea, kibbutzim, theatra and collel students, etc., and the taxes reduced accordingly, then the many Hareidim who do work would have much more money left over to give tsedaka, and all of the colloel students and the poor hareidim could be taken care of very nicely.

The problem is that anti semites like you a)don't know (or don't tell) the real situation and b) want to eliminate subsidies to hareidim without eliminating subsidies to others and without eliminating taxes on Hareidim.

[Shmarya]

I see your grasp of history is rather poor, and you believe every anti-Zionist lie out there.

As for ther ben Gurion deal, it was not to exempt ALL yeshiva students. It was meant to exempt the best and the brightest,sort of like like exempting Masters and Ph. d. students (which, of course, Israel did not do).

Haredim have turned yeshivot into holding pens to keep men out of the army.

It is deceitful, immoral and soon it will be no more.