Judaism's Own Untouchables – The Sexual Gift That Never Stops Giving

Writing on Jewschool, David Kelsey points out what would be the biggest stumbling block to recruiting new ba'alei teshuva – if the BTs knew about it. For the most part, potential BTs do not know. I think it's time to change that.

Simply put, if your mother did not go to the mikva and immerse following her menstrual period immediately before you were conceived, you are what is known in halakha as a ben  (or bat) nida. And you are, according to halakha, blemished, tainted, and far more likely to do evil than a Jew born to a mother who did immerse. Therefore, halakha advises that untainted Jews not marry you – or your descendants.

That's right – Judaism has a caste system and BTs are down near the bottom of it.

Several great rabbis have ruled that ben nida does not apply to a BTs who comport themselves in a good (subservient) way. (Perhaps the most normal of these rulings comes from the Steipler Gaon, who points out that even the most haredi of haredi families must statistically have a blemish like this in its background and that, since the taint is never removed, the taint must still remain and exist in every one of us. Therefore, we don't need to worry about who is and who is not a ben nida.) But that has not stopped wide swaths of the haredi world from forbidding their children to marry BTs, and even children of BTs.

I first heard of this issue early in my contact with Chabad. I heard about it from other BTs, more experienced than I, usually as a warning – Don't even think about marrying Rivkie or Chanie. Her mother went to the mikva and yours probably did not, so you can't marry her.

Chabad rabbis would spin this problem by saying that a BT's children could marry into a 'non-tainted' family. And there was always the occasional exception to the rule, handy for pointing out the 'openness' of Chabad. Of course, that exception nearly always involved a BT with a lot of money or a 'untainted' girl with serious mental or physical problems.

No matter how you slice it, Orthodoxy has a caste system based on a metaphysical taint that can never be removed. How many Jews would become Orthodox if this were widely known? How many non-Orthodox philanthropists would fund Orthodox institutions?

A lot fewer than do so today would be my guess.

Wouldn't it be nice to see how many that would be?

Comments

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Potential BTs should ask their "kiruv" "professional" how many of his children have married BTs. It's better to ask it at the Shabbos table, for maximum effect. ;-)

Oddly enough, "FFBs" don't like marrying converts either. Ironically, a convert is 100% certainly not a ben/bas niddah. The same can't be said for "FFBs."

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

How many Jews would become Orthodox if this were widely known?

Uh, none?

/More proof that "kiruv" "professionals" lie.
//Granted, it's a lie of omission, but still a lie.
///Just like Evangelical Christians

[Alex]

Shmarya, you are a rare beacon of truth, keep up the good work.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I know of moderate Modern Orthodox FFBs who have married converts or BTs. This is another chareidi chumrah, not found in the torah. What bullshit! The sins of the parents don't devolve on the children, if the children don't follow in their parents' ways. (Not that that even applies anymore, because most non-frummies are halachically "tinokei shenispha").

[Yochanan Lavie]

Maybe the Original Sin wasn't refraining from mikveh, but not schuckling or eating chulent.

[Alex]

lol Yochanan

maybe we can have mikvas full of chulent that BTs can jump into and that would make everything okay?

is there a halacha on that?

lol

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Perhaps the most normal of these rulings comes from the Steipler Gaon, who points out that even the most haredi of haredi families must statistically have a blemish like this in its background and that, since the taint is never removed, the taint must still remain and exist in every one of us."

This is like Sts. Paul and Augustine, and their obsession with Original Sin. (For those who don't know, Christians believe it's sexual and we're all born tainted with it). But at least they thought Yushka took care of that, so this is actually worse- no recourse.

What is this Neo-Christian crap about sins we didn't personally commit tainting us for ever and ever? Chareidism has nothing to offer me.

[Anonymous]

Did they come any more "chareidi" that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein?

The entire yeshiva world looked up to him.

He was known as the "posek hador".

Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe referred people to him for psak halacha.

To anyone with a minimal knowledge of halacha, Rav Moshe's writings on "ben nida" are essential prior to any discussion.

Please see his letter in Igros Moshe on this issue and understand what the true charedi approach is to this problem.

[gross]

From what I understand, a kohen who is a baal teshuvah is stripped of his priestly privileges like "duchening." I learned this recently when it involved family. It's weird.

[Moshe]

From what I understand, a kohen who is a baal teshuvah is stripped of his priestly privileges like "duchening."
I don't see why that would be true, unless there is reason to think that he is a Mamzer.

[Shmarya]

Did they come any more "chareidi" that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein?

The entire yeshiva world looked up to him.

He was known as the "posek hador".

Even the Lubavitcher Rebbe referred people to him for psak halacha.

To anyone with a minimal knowledge of halacha, Rav Moshe's writings on "ben nida" are essential prior to any discussion.

Please see his letter in Igros Moshe on this issue and understand what the true charedi approach is to this problem.

Rav Moshe is quoted in Kelsey's post and in the material he cites and links to.

Rav Moshe held that it is probable that the woman went swimming before conception and, as long as it is known that the woman did sometimes swim, that is enough al pi torah to rule her offspring 'pure' and not benei nida.

It is nice to find a loophole in halakha, and I'm glad Rav Moshe did it. But by no means does he dismiss the taint and, if the woman never swam, the child is a ben nida.

Further, Chabad sent many problems of Jewish law Rav Moshe's way, but it only followed him when his rulings were convenient.

See, for example here where the Rebbe does just that and then ignores Rav Moshe's ruling.

[puzzled]

Hasidic woman nearly raped. Why hasn't it been covered? http://olamhasheker.blogspot.com/

[puzzled]

A 21-year old, pregnant Chasidishe woman hitching a ride with a "yungerman" from Williamsburg to Boro Park, sustained injuries and barely escaped when the driver suddenly pulled over and brandished a knife. The young woman reportedly required minor surgery and is in stable condition.

Isn't it time for women to be allowed driving privileges? Men hitch too and not everyone has a car, but if women drove, the chances of a young woman getting into a car driven by a male stranger - even a chasidishe male stranger - would be slim.

There is absolutely no excuse for the Yeshiva World blog not to post this story. After all it certainly is more important than reporting on the random travels of obscure rebbes....

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I don't see why that would be true, unless there is reason to think that he is a Mamzer.

Or a חלל.

[avrohom]

BTw: The limud zchus point mentioned by Reb MOshe(swimming before conception) is also incidentally mentioned by the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

All this notwithstainding: IT is time for all of you wake up and smell the coffee: Baaley TEshuva know a lot more than what you think, before they enter the Torah and Mitzvot world. And yet, they would not change anything for the joy and meaning of life of Torah and mitzvot. All the vituperative attacks on Jewish life falls on deaf ears, on these baalley teshuvas (fpr do you think that they have not heard all the "relgious people with horns" before they read these blogs?) and the reason being:

because they know that all you guys do not offer one shred of a meaningful ife with HASHEM nothing of what you propagate has anything positive to do with the G-D OF ISRAEL. SO they know that at the end of the day, the slic eof Torah and mtizvot unites ALL JEWS EQUALLY WITH HASHEM THEY SENSE THE AHAVAH HAMSUTERET THAT EXISTS IN EVERY NESHAMA ELOKIT WHEN HE OR SHE DOES A MITZVA THEY HAVE IGNITED THAT SPARK AND CONNECTED WITH G-D! Nothing that you will offer him or her will matter for they know that with all the inks and paper that blogs are written on they cannot satiate their thirst to Hashem with all these nonsense. Nor can they find in the beaches and movies...So they go backto themselves to the shuls an yehivas and eretc a jewish home full with the lgiht and warmth of YIDDISHKEYT!

Once again, Shmarya is using deceitful spin to stop anyone from becoming frum or to discourage anyone already there. Misery sure does love company.

There are a number of gedolim including R' Aron Kotler who said not to be choshesh for ben nidah. One easy explanation given is that the "pgam" does not automatically affect everyone and that good midos are the indication.

Granted there are Chassidish and Hungarian rabbonim who disagree, most notably R' Menashe Klein. The Steipler Gaon argued with Rav Klein at length in a series of letters but Menashe Hakuttun, as he calls himself, would not back down.

Any fear in yeshivish circles of the pgam is just a silly hang up. R' Zelig Epstein may not have commented specifically on the pgam factor but he is a big critic of silly yeshivishe hang ups in general.

I will not deny that many improperly stigmatize baalei teshuva, but there is a very long list of Litivishe rabbonim / roshei yeshiva / mashgichim who have taken baalei teshuva as sons in law.

[rebeljew]

avrohom

While many BTs experience the euphoria you describe, many are also swept away and out by the problems discussed on this and other blogs. Before you start spouting that their is no problem, or only a minor problem, or the "vast majority" or whatever else, why don;pt you meet some of the BT fallout, the single moms left with 8 kids, the kids of broken homes, when things go bad, when the finances go bad, when the Judaism goes bad.

It is not bad to be idealistic, but don't get too high on your own supply.

[Shalom]

A couple of ideas.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing that the rebbe encouraged ffbs to marry baal teshuvas or at least children of baal teshuvas.

Second, I would think that a convert would be 100% a ben/bat nidda, because their parents didnt go to mikva before they were born. If so, King David descended from a bat nidda (Ruth).

Third, I read in the tanya, end of chapter 2, the following, "All the commandments that it (a person's soul) fulfills are influenced by that garment — it is through this garment that the soul achieves its ability to affect the body and to perform the commandments involving physical matters; even the benevolence that flows to one from heaven is all given through that garment. Because the soul is so strongly bound up with this garment, the Zohar refers to the garment, in this context, as the person’s “soul”. Now, if the person sanctifies himself, he will bring forth a holy garment for the neshamah of his child, thereby enabling the child to serve G-d more readily...But the soul itself as distinct from its “garment” is not affected by the parents‘ sanctification; in fact it sometimes happens that the soul of an infinitely lofty person comes to be the son of an ignoble and lowly person." (whose wife didn't go to the mikva).
And a comment at the end says, "Thus the physical world — of which the parents are a part — can in no way affect the soul’s spiritual rank. Even the statement of the Zohar that the essential factor regarding the state of the soul is the holy manner of conduct during sexual union, pertains only to the soul’s “garment”. The soul itself, with all its various levels, emanates “from above.”

THe way I see it, just as parents can effect the psychological welfare of their children, as well as influence their level of torah observance, so too could they effect in a spiritual way their children's connection with G-d. THats not to say that a person's soul's garment will hold them back in their service of G-d or happiness in life. I know plenty of wonderful, very succesful observant (and non observant) jews whose parents did not go to mikva. I also have heard of ffb jews with yichus going way back who have had little success in many aspects of their social and economic life, and some who have done some very bad things. I think that having a "pure garment" is an added bonus, but that one can reach the heights of spiritually without it.

I would also like to point out, that over time, especially in close knit communities, if the diverse genes of converts and baal teshuvas are not added into the mix, serious genetic defects can occur, G-d forbid.

[Benjamin]

And the Steipler and R. Feinstein are not just "finding loopholes" in the halakha. This is clearly their way of expressing their strong opinion that we don't consider these "metaphysical p'gams" to be meaningful any more. That is made clear by the fact that R. Moshe entirely ignores the fact that swimming women nowadays would be wearing tight-fitting bathing suits (as noted on Jewschool) and does not say that babies born in summer don't count because nobody swims in the winter when it must have been conceived. It's not that he missed this point; this is simply his way of dismissing the p'gam. Same with the Steipler.

As much as I agree that it is awful when people perpetuate this idea contrary to the clear wishes of the gedolim, this is no reason to stigmatize all of Orthodoxy and declare it permanently tainted with a "caste system."

A convert can never be a ben nidah because he is not related to his birth parents from his former life.

[Yankel]

I have a lot to say about the post. but I will refrain other to say that.... The tag line was incredible. I thought it was going to be Herpes Simplex 2.

One comment as an aside. I had R Riskin as a Rebbe in YU. He only ran away from two questions in class all year. One of the questions asked by a brilliant student was " Rebbe , if a girl swims in a lake in a loose bathing suit , is it b'deved considered mikveh." Of course if R Riskin said yes it would take away one of the problems with pre marital sex. Now we had class full of horny 19 year olds guy in 19775 or so............
So R. Riskin quickly changed topics.

Next Shmarya is going to say that Chareidim are worse than evil because they won't miscgenate with Shvartzas!

Going for the melanin is the ultimate secular act. Let's see what happens if Shmarya ever woos a woman. He's going to bash every rov that ever made a passing comment about a Mulatto!

Rabbi Riskin did force the topic though of not having a proper mechitza so that everyone could wink n' stare at Lincoln Square.

I have heard that there is a secret Sefer Yuchasin in Crown Hts where the original Lubobs from Russia and their descendants are recorded. The administration fears what will be down the line when most of Chabad is overrun by BT offspring.

[Marc]

What a joke. Out here most of the Chabadniks are becoming more like very modern orthodox. Their kids and rabbis care more and know more about "modern culture" like movies, sports, computer games, etc. than they do about torah, and lot of the girls wear short dresses.

But one things for sure, the lubbos don't put BT and their kids in a shidduch for the most part. However, if you have a lot of money and give it to chabad, you can get a lot of respect even if you live like a goy.

Thanks for the interesting post and keep up the good work educating us.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

All the vituperative attacks on Jewish life falls on deaf ears, on these baalley teshuvas

That doesn't surprise me. After all, none of us here are certified cult deprogrammers.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I will not deny that many improperly stigmatize baalei teshuva, but there is a very long list of Litivishe rabbonim / roshei yeshiva / mashgichim who have taken baalei teshuva as sons in law.

A long list, eh? How about naming ten? That should be too hard since you are working off a long list.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Second, I would think that a convert would be 100% a ben/bat nidda, because their parents didnt go to mikva before they were born. If so, King David descended from a bat nidda (Ruth).

Unless you are saying that goyim are obligated to go to the mikveh, converts cannot be bnei niddah.

[Shmarya]

But the soul
itself as distinct from its “garment” is not affected by the
parents‘ sanctification; in fact it sometimes happens that the soul
of an infinitely lofty person comes to be the son of an ignoble and
lowly person." (whose wife didn't go to the mikva).

Nowhere does it say "(whose wife didn't go to the mikva)." That is your incorrect addition.

The Tanya is speaking about rankings of souls, from the highest to the lowest, and rankings of piety and scholarship. It is pointing out that a so-called high soul can be born to low souls or to those less learned or not as pious.

It does not in any way mean to remove the p'gam (taint) or deal with the ben nidda issue.

[Shmarya]

It's not that he missed this
point; this is simply his way of dismissing the p'gam.

Except that Rav Moshe writes that, if the woman never goes swimming, the heter is off.He could have written that it is not necessary to ascertain how often, if at all, she swims because most people swim.

[maxevans]

Wow! I was raised as a frum lubavavitcher by BT parents, and I never heard about this issue. I guess it's one of those parts of judaism that we now ignore because of modern moral sensibilities. For example, how could I follow the torah, which is supposed to act as a moral code, if it says I have a responsibility to kill the babies of amalek because their ancestors were evil. I don't think anyone today would even consider doing such a thing.
If Reb Moshe really believed the torah is the word of god how could he just decide to ignore this "ben nidah" thing (as mentioned in Benjamin's comments above).
Although most parts of the torah seem like reasonable moral instructions, there are some that I find to be quite antithetical to my personal ethics, like the instruction that homosexuals must be put to death. Therefore I have to decided to live by the morals of society, not by those of an ancient religion.
Also, one of the daughters of the rav of my community married the son of BT millionaire, while the rest of the rav's daughter's married bnei shluchim. Knowing the rav's family pretty well, I really doubt that the shidduch would have been considered if the BT wasn't rich.

[NO NAME]

This is only concerning male BTs or converts.A women has similiar issues there are different issues too. A BT /convert has no real chance of marrying into a family that is FFB for several generations. Real choices are divorcees, widows, single mothers ‘ the non-physical ideal’ and of course women BTs and converts. Then again when these women become available there is no competition from the yeshiva crowd. A BT / convert has a real desire to be part of an extended frum family. A FFB family that has only been frum for one generation has a real desire to see their children get married into a higher status extended family. I will say this to any BTs or converts out there- you better meet the women’s parents after three dates or you are going to run into a real heartbreak. I went with two women at once, the one who promised me that I would meet her parents- I married. Of course there are possibilities for the BT, for the convert it is FAR slimmer. Money or rather a profession that earns lots of money, goes a long way to alleviate one’s circumstances. The less frum the family is, the more accepting the family is towards a BT or convert. The anomaly is that of a congregation that has both ‘white hats’ ( MO) and ‘black hats’ is that the black hats will be far warmer to the mitvot observant BT and convert. The MO crowd will be far colder. I mean in terms of inviting one over of Shabbat and this is just in general as there are the usual exceptions.
There is another problem, the women that become available may not have any desire to go to the mikve. One person came up to me and said his mother never went to the mikve and wasn’t really accepted by the real Orthodox crowd and I could expect the same. (so I think, so why don’t you invite us over on Shabbat?)
So marry a women that doesn’t go to the mikve, the black hats will sort of shun you and yet the whites hats are cold. So I made the decision to leave that community not that I was noticed cause there was a WAR going on between the factions that led to a split.

OH BY THE WAY
I heard of this Jewish 'original sin' when I went to Ora Shamch

[Jim the Catholic]

>This is like Sts. Paul and Augustine, and their obsession with Original Sin. (For those who don't know, Christians believe it's sexual and we're all born tainted with it).

I reply: FYI. The Catholic Church has NEVER taught this nor have any of the so called Reformation Protestant Churches ever taught this.

Original Sin comes from Adam & Eve's first act of disobedience to G_d & it's nature is human souls after Adam are born without Supernatural Grace & are in a mere natural state.

It's complicated & beyond my capacity to explain to people who were brought up in a very different religous tradition. But it has nothing to do with sex.

>But at least they thought Yushka took care of that, so this is actually worse- no recourse.

I reply: Yes Yeshua does take away original sin through Baptism.

I forgive the distortion to my religion. I don't expect a bunch of Jews to know much about Catholic theology beyond rumor & inuendo.

[Jim the Catholic]

I've sadly seen "Catholics" claim the Talmud teaches Child rape(A bogus charge BTW) ignorance is a universal problem.

[Yos]

Somebody in the Jewschool comments simply said: Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers.

That cracked me up. Maybe that's why Xtians hate Harry Potter.

Yechi Salazar Slytherin!

[avrohom]

While many BTs experience the euphoria you describe, many are also swept away and out by the problems discussed on this and other blogs.

Before you start spouting that their is no problem, or only a minor problem, or the "vast majority" or whatever else, why don;pt you meet some of the BT fallout, the single moms left with 8 kids, the kids of broken homes, when things go bad, when the finances go bad, when the Judaism goes bad.

It is not bad to be idealistic, but don't get too high on your own supply.

Dear Rebel,

I'm aware of the problems this blog discusses.And i haven't dismiss them. AndI think that many of them mus be addressed.

However, I have discovered: that since the ideas of bloggers as this and others is to do away with G-d of Israel, beleif in Torah, Halacha and the spiritual meaning of all the above,

a) These blogs are not interested to correct the problems; but to uproot yiddishkeyt as is know,

b) They will not solve the problems discussed,

c) They and maybe you to a degree do not get it, that if any positive movement of yiddishkeyt will emerge it must contain the elements of beleif in G-d His Torah and therefore we have seen that all rebels in the psat decades have not been able to create one single positive movement that caters a positive enviroment for BT who will combine Torah and G-d and hav a laid back attitude to these people. Why? Because non of you are interested in that and the prospective BT wants the euphoria. Yes, ultimately he must the "shoov" but without the "rotzo" (containing the rotozon of Hashem) it willbe for naught.

[Alex]

avrohom- Yiddishkite is a disgusting abberation of what Judaism is supposed to be and of what Jews are supposed to be like.

Jews are supposed to be the intellects, we are supposed to be self sufficient economically, if one is to believe the Jewish tradition then the line of David (not Rabbis hint hint), and Hebrew is the jewish language, and we are supposed to be respectful courtious and friendly people.

The very name of yiddishkite is an abomination on Jews and Judaism and a sad aspect of Jewish history because it was formed after roman diaspora, after hebrew fell as a spoken language and was forgotten by everyone except religious scholars. GET IT? Yiddish should never have happened! It was formed, because Hebrew, the true Jewish language was FORGOTTEN!

Point two, Rabbinic Judaism has turned into a cult of revisionary history in which Moses himself was a rabbi, which of course is historically incorrect and serves to legitamize the institution of rabbis as sonething that is intrinsic to Judaism when it really isn't. The class of rabbis only exist as a handicap to the jewish people, because after the fall of the bait hamikdash hashaniet they were who we had who knew all the laws.

If our rabbis were to be true to Judaism, then their purpose ought to be the elimination of our need for them so that we can read religious texts on our own. (I don't see that happening any time soon)

Further, let us hope that rabbis in Israel don't usurp the role that Judaism gives to the line of David. They are supposed to be teachers, not rulers.

Failing the davadic heir, on a theological level, democracy of course is the most plausable because in that no one man can not be like a god. But, the rabbis want to be like gods and use the "oral law" to create new rules to harass us because they have no girlfriends no money and no lifes. (lol joke with some element of truth)

Also, let us hope that the rabbis don't lead us to the dark ages of seventeenth century Eastern Europe. Back then, if I understand correctly and I'm sure I do, boys were economically self sufficient at a very young age and hence they were married off young. Nowadays, our great big genius rabbis marry off their daughters to men with no skills and no finances, in an attempt to being like they were in East Europe, but in can't work like that in the modern world for obvious reasons - self sufficiency does not happen at 13.

As for jews being a friendly, respectful, courtious people, yup no need to go into a discussion there regarding our religious folk, the yids.

[avrohom]

Alex,

There is no common denominator between us. You make my point: you guys are not interested in Yiddihksyt, aka: Judaism as is known for thousands of years. Go ahead with all your reform and newage judaism and intermarry as the text does not prohibit intermarriage, but be honest with all the readers of your blog and say upfront: when i am attacking this or that practice of this diabolic rabbi or "orthodox" jew i'm primiraly attacking all the crazy beleifs of jews for millenium and want you to join me in overturn of the regime by the sadicitc and malicious rabbis. That would mak you an honest person, for people would know clearly what you are really after.

But rest assured that after all your attacks you will not get jews who are interested in G-d of Israel His Torah in your talks because their neshomoh at the end does not care for all these talks and yearns for Shma Yisrael Hashem Elokeyn Hashem Echad and is interested in Torah Tziva Lanu MOshe Morasha KEhilat Yaakov. IF you have anything positive to offer here they will isten; if you want them to erase this verse from the texts and give your cold rational explnanation why this is not applicable today you will make more BT and do damage to your causes!

[Jim the Catholic]

>Rabbinic Judaism has turned into a cult of revisionary history in which Moses himself was a rabbi.

I reply: Dum question. Doesn't "Rabbi" mean teacher? Thus how can Moses NOT be a teacher?

[Alex]

its late and just a few typos i want to correct

* if one is to believe the Jewish tradition then the line of David (not Rabbis hint hint), is supposed to be in charge of the jewish state

* attempt to be like they were in East Europe, but it can't work like that

------------------------------

Now to answer Jim: Moreh and Melamed are the words in Hebrew that means teacher. Rav (the nowadays word for rabbi) means great one, words with same root leters include rabeem - the masses / the many(population wise), and rabotai which means gentlemen as a form of address.

In a looser sense rav can mean religious teacher and its English rendition into rabbi has taken on that meaning.

------------------------------

now to answer avrohom-

dummy, you are one with the revisionary history who deviates from the truth, not me.

[Ariel Sokolovsky]

B"H
The Lubavitcher Rebbe writes in a letter on this topic (as quoted in "Eternal Joy" A Guide To Shidduchim & Marriage
Based On The Teachings Of The Lubavitcher Rebbe,
Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson
:

If The Parents Seemingly Did Not Observe The Laws Of Family Purity
... According to all opinions. the immersion of a niddah does not at all require intent [that she is immersing for the sake of purification].[15]

It is specifically in the United States that it is extremely common to bathe in rivers and seas - not only during the summer months, but quite often during the winter months as well. This is in addition to bathing in assemblages of water that contain much more than [the measure of] forty se'ah. Especially so, since even canals and tributaries quite often are mixed in with - or composed of - well water.

Clearly the above should not be publicized before ignoramuses or even those who are a level above them [so that this should not be understood, G-d forbid, as an excuse not to immerse in a mikveh].

Nevertheless, concurrently, one should not thrust aside many, many daughters of Israel from engaging in a shidduch with religious and G-d-fearing families, even if there was clear and public knowledge that their mothers did not observe purification in a mikveh. Surely this applies when this [clear knowledge of their past behavior is lacking, but] is merely an educated guess.[16]

(Igros Kodesh, Vol. XVIII, p. 452)

Notes:

16. See also Responsa of R. Moshe Feinstein, printed at conclusion of the English Sefer "Hilchos Niddah," Sec. 19; Responsa Chelkas Yaakov III:7.

http://sichosinenglish.com/books/eternal-joy-1/13.htm

I do not wish to embarass the baalei teshuva so I will identify in a roundabout way, the 10 I was asked to list.

Partial list.

Baal teshuva sons in laws by:

1) A major figure in Chaim Berlin yeshiva
2) A rebbe in an upstate NY yeshiva (unfortunately the fellow became completely frey and left his wife and children for the US Army)
3) A rosh yeshiva in Bobov
4) A chassidishe rov in Monsey
5) A rosh yeshiva in Derech Chaim - Boro Park
6) A mashgiach in a Canadian yeshiva

These are baalei Teshuva themselves that are sons in laws of rabbonim:

1) A rebbe in Philly yeshiva
2) A rebbe in the LA yeshiva
3) A rosh kollel in the Southeast
4) A de facto Chief rabbi of a large city in the South

I can also name an even longer list of rabbonim / roshei yeshiva whose daughters have dated baalei teshuva even if they ultimately married an FFB.

[Shmarya]

Ariel –

So the Rebbe in effect cites Rav Moshe. And? Most of us who have experience with Chabad while the Rebbe was alive and well can attest to the reluctance of FFB families to have their children marry BTs. Even very accomplished BTs were not welcome.

Are there exceptions? Sure. I noted a few above. But they are very few and very far between.

The same, BTW, is true for the Litvishe velt, except that the exceptions are more common. Litvaks tend to look at a person's accomplishments and judge based on that first and yichus second. Hasidim do the opposite.

[Shmarya]

In other words, a BT whose learning and middot put him exactly in the middle of the pack of all FFBs will almost never marry and FFB in the hasidic world or the Litvishe world. Exceptions to this rule involve the BT having lots of money or political power or the FFb having a mental of physical 'defect.'

But, an exceptional BT, one who would be at or very near the top of the pack of all FFBs has a great shot at marrying an FFB in either world – unless the BT is in parts of the hasidic world under the influence of Rabbi Menashe Klein and a other Hungarian poskim.

The point is, only when the BT is exceptionally bright and exceptionally pious are the scales equal.

If the BT is less than that, although still frum and still a learner, he has no real shot at marrying into a FFB family.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I do not wish to embarass the baalei teshuva so I will identify in a roundabout way, the 10 I was asked to list

I'm sorry, but it looks like you can't even name one. Though there is no shame in being a BT, I'm not interested in the names of the BTs themselves. However, I am still interested in hearing ten actual names (living people) from your "very long list of Litivishe rabbonim / roshei yeshiva / mashgichim" who had children that married BTs.

Isn't there anyone on your list that has several children? Let's use Rabbi Shlomo Freifeld, zt"l of Yeshiva Sh'or Yoshuv as an example. Some of his children married BTs. You see, I can do it without naming names.

Rabbi Freifeld was a so called "BT" -- it's no big secret really -- so it's no surprise to me that he was tolerant of BTs.

Now lets see your list from the "FFB" world, with actual names. If you can't even do that, then it's a sad commentary on the actual regard so called FFBs have for BTs.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I can also name an even longer list of rabbonim / roshei yeshiva whose daughters have dated baalei teshuva even if they ultimately married an FFB.

They actually deigned to date a BT? How magnanimous!

Updated list. Take it or leave it:

1) A major figure in Chaim Berlin yeshiva (the mashgiach Rav Groner)
2) A rebbe in an upstate NY yeshiva (unfortunately the fellow became completely frey and left his wife and children for the US Army) I refuse to name these people because of the shame they feel.
3) A rosh yeshiva in Bobov (I forget the name of the rosh yeshiva but I don't think the son in law tries to hide his origins. He is exceptional in learning and his name is an oxymoron - Freyer.
4) A chassidishe rov in Monsey (reason that I can't name these people)
5) A rosh yeshiva in Derech Chaim - Boro Park (Rabbi Plutchok)
6) A mashgiach in a Canadian yeshiva (reason that I can't name these people)

These are baalei Teshuva themselves that are sons in laws of rabbonim:

1) A rebbe in Philly yeshiva (Rabbi Perman)
2) A rebbe in the LA yeshiva (I'm told that such a person exists but don't know his name)
3) A rosh kollel in the Southeast (reason why I can't name him)
4) A de facto Chief rabbi of a large city in the South (reason why I can't name him him)

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Updated list. Take it or leave it:

Thanks, you tried your best. It's too bad that most of these people can't be named due to the shame of being related by marriage to a BT. I bet they would have little regard for Rabbi Akiva if he lived in our time.

/ I maintain that "Gedolim" will never appear on anyone's list
// I can't see asking people to become "frum" if they aren't even accepted by the same people telling them to become frum.
/// Rachav HaZona married a Gadol HaDor. Can you imagine such a thing happening today?
//// I guess there is no redemption within "frumkeit."
///// At least Christianity promises redemption

[Shalom]

Shmarya,
My point in quoting the tanya was simply to say that a person with a very lofty soul can be born from a mother who doesn't keep the laws of nidda. My "incorrect addition" was not put in quotes with the rest of the tanya I quoted. What I wrote can be inferred from the text of the tanya, because usually people born to "ignoble and lowly" people are ben/bat nidda. I was in no way trying to remove the pgam issue. My paragraph following the quote explained my purpose in quoting the tanya.

Alex, you said "if one is to believe the Jewish tradition then the line of David (not Rabbis hint hint), is supposed to be in charge of the jewish state
"
For one, the Jewish people, statistically speaking all descend from King David (a mathematician worked this out not so long ago). Regardless, no rabbi claims to be the halachically legitimate king of Israel today, with all the laws that go along with that position. And leaders of the Jewish people who are in charge of the state can be from any tribe (like Joshua, Ezra, etc.)