Haredi Spokesman Attacks Former Chief Rabbi, Defends Haredi Rabbi Who Voided Woman's Conversion 15 Years After The Fact – Endorses Haredi Organization Linked To Bait-And-Switch Conversion Tactics

Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum has done a despicable thing.

Rabbi Rosenblum is the only haredi spokesperson I respect. While I often disagree with him, he is usually honest and forthright, and he tires to make his case in a clear logical manner without using the tricks and verbal gymnastics so common to those who ply his trade.

Rabbi Rosenblum has a column in today's Jerusalem Post defending the haredi rabbi, Avraham Attiya, who voided a woman's conversion 15 years after the fact and ruled that her children are non-Jews. He forbade anyone in the family – including her husband, who either was converted separately or was born Jewish – from marrying into the Jewish community. Not content with this butchery alone, Rabbi Attiya went on to excoriate the state-sponsored Orthodox conversion courts and the rabbis who serve on them, calling them sinners and non-Jews. He summarily voided all conversions – thousands of them – done by these Religious Zionist Orthodox rabbis.

To defend Rabbi Attiya, Rabbi Rosenblum uses former Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren:

…I WONDER how many of those calling for Rabbi Attias's scalp remember that Rabbi Shlomo Goren "freed" a brother and sister from the halachic status of mamzerut by voiding their mother's marriage at the time of their conception. And that was done, in turn, by voiding her husband's conversion, despite the fact that he had been living as a fully observant Jew for decades. For his promise to "solve" the problem of two mamzerim, Goren was rewarded by prime minister Golda Meir with appointment as the Ashkenazi chief rabbi and became a national hero.…

There was a German girl in my ulpan class 30 years ago who was living at a nearby kibbutz. She was personally converted by then-chief rabbi Goren late in her ninth month of pregnancy. When I asked her whether Goren had inquired about the likelihood of her keeping mitzvot on the completely secular kibbutz, she laughed. "Right," she said, "a little German girl is going to come here and tell a group of German Holocaust survivors that they should make the dining hall kosher."

In the famous Seidman case, Goren personally converted a woman who had repeatedly stressed that she saw no need for an Orthodox conversion and had no intention of becoming mitzva observant in order to forestall a civil marriage law in the Knesset.…

Of course, what Rabbi Rosenblum does not mention, what he does not tell his readership, is that every Goren case mentioned involved ruling leniently, to kula, in order to reduce or prevent suffering (or, in the Seidman case, to protect the integrity of the rabbinic monopoly over marriage as a whole, which would have been removed in its entirety by the Knesset). What Rabbi Goren did, as controversial as some of it was, is well-supported in halakhic thought.

As I've written many times before, the idea is not for rabbis to be strict, especially with people who will not abide by that strictness. From Hillel the Elder onward (at least until the birth of haredism in the early 1800s), this has been the norm. As Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told a former teacher of mine (and I paraphrase), "It is easy to be strict. It is much more difficult to be lenient. My job is to ease the burden on Jews and to be lenient whenever possible."

To void a conversion 15 years after the fact, to be as harsh and uncaring, as brutal and as barbaric as Rabbi Attiya is to turn the entire halakhic process on its head.

There is no way Rabbi Attiya can know why this woman's converting rabbis did what they did. (More telling: He did not even bother to find out.) Rather than behave with kindness, to try to draw the woman closer to observance, to try to befriend the family, he lashed out, causing irreparable harm.

Rabbi Rosenblum goes on to compare the case of this poor woman to conversions done by non-Orthodox rabbis.

Then, Rabbi Rosenblum discusses with approval the work of the Monsey-based haredi group, Eternal Jewish Family. EJF, founded and run by Rabbi Leib Tropper, is a major player in the haredi move to control the conversion process worldwide.

Rabbi Tropper, who is also the founder and rosh yeshiva of Kol Yakov, a Monsey-based haredi ba'al teshuva yeshiva, is a controversial figure.

Rabbi Tropper has been accused of using bait-and-switch tactics to lure potential converts from intermarried families. In one southern city, Rabbi Tropper promised potential converts that a mikva would be built and a shul opened – no one would need to move to Monsey or another Orthodox enclave. But, when the time for conversion neared, no mikva existed and no synagogue functioned. The promised rabbi Tropper was to send had not arrived. Then, Rabbi Tropper dropped a bombshell. These potential converts, all serious, all had studied for more than a year, would have to move from the southern United States to Monsey, New York – or their conversions were off.

Rabbi Tropper told me these converts confused his hopes with promises. But in email correspondence shared with me, Rabbi Tropper admits in part to misleading these poor people.

Further, there are cities with mikvas, Modern Orthodox congregations and YU-trained rabbis relatively close to where these people live. They could drive for an hour and a half and spend Shabbat and holidays with families there until a congregation can open in their home town. Rabbi Tropper did not propose that option. (In their home town, by the way, there are other such Tropper-involved families facing similar decisions, and where one or two observant Jews live. Some of those potential converts have been said to be fearful that Tropper will cut them off, too, if they speak out about his dishonesty.)

The husband of this family is in his 50s. He has years vested at his job with a pension due on retirement. He will lose all that if he moves, along with facing the problem of finding a new job at that age. Rabbi Tropper made many cloud-like promises – this friend in Monsey will find something for you or that man who works for the city will take care of you – but nothing concrete, and the family was unwilling to trust a man who had already lied to them.

Rabbi Tropper summarily threw the eldest son of this family out of his yeshiva, leaving him broke with no way to get to the airport and back home. He claimed the boy was not serious about his learning yet the boy's teachers had given the family nothing but praise – until the day they refused to move to Monsey. This teenager had to borrow money to get home.

Tropper had promised the family the boy would be able to get his GED at Kol Yakov, and he urged them to withdraw the child from public school and send him to Monsey and Tropper's yeshiva. But Tropper made no arrangements for that GED. It did not matter, however,  because the boy was ineligible for a GED under NY law because he was too young. He lost a year, and had to regroup and restructure his life, all because Rabbi Leib Tropper cannot tell the truth.

These people spent thousands of dollars on new kitchen appliances and dishes, kept strictly kosher and did whatever Rabbi Tropper demanded. They appeared on Tropper's EJF website praising the organization and were used by Tropper as examples of his "successful" approach. This material was apparently shown to Rabbi Shlomo Amar, Israel's Sefardic chief rabbi, and to other Israeli haredi leaders who later moved to block acceptance of all Rabbinical Council of America (Modern Orthodox) conversions. Now this family is "lost" to "Yiddishkeit" because of Tropper's failings.

(By the way, I, along with David Kelsey, pitched this story to a major Jewish newspaper last year. The paper, familiar with this blog, would not assign the story to me because I'm too close to the issue and too outspoken. But they were not aware of Kelsey's blog, and were willing to assign it to him. Or, if we wanted, we could do it as an op-ed. I was game for that; Kelsey was not. In the end, we turned it down hoping the paper would relent. It did not. No one else has the story, so, as far as I know, this is the first place this has appeared.)

While it is true that Rabbi Rosenblum can hardly be expected to know the details of this story, there are other similar stories about Rabbi Tropper. A bit of poking might have served Rabbi Rosenblum well.

To sum up: Extremely lenient rulings to spare individuals pain is the halakhic norm, not the halakhic exception. Using halakha for political gain, while unfortunately the common these days, is neither laudable or supported by normative halakha.

Jonathan Rosenblum should apologize for his lapse in judgment. He can then go on defending that which I believe he often, in his deepest thoughts, knows to be indefensible.

Comments

I have being living in Monsey all my life and I am familiar with tropper, he is evil person. Most of the people here do not like him or his yeshiva, he used to be nobody and considered a weirdo before he converted a shiksa from rich southern American family (Kaplan) and got an access to a lot of money.

He is rumored to engage in inappropriate behavior and JWB should look into it.

Even before his rise to fame he was known to make his students cut off any contact
with their families. He controls their shiduch and forces them to cancel it if he does not like to girl (he got now his own BT shiduch services).

Students who left the yeshiva and decided to practice MO, Tropper tried to get them fired from their job. Students who decided to go to college Tropper bad mouthed them with their new community and new rabbi,

For converts, he convinced intermarried couple to cancel their RCA beis din and to go with him only to cancel the woman conversion because they did not want
to move to black hat community, this after the couple
had children.

I can go on and on but I will just ad about his background, he is best friend with Leib Pinter a serial crook, he got his semicha from Pini Scheinberg of the ‘No Pentration, No harm done’ and he is cousin of Shlomo Carlebach another sexual predator.

http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/Carlebach_Shlomo.html

I believe the reason the community let people like Kolko and Shapiro molest tens of children for decades is because we let people like Tropper to position of
power

[monseyguy]

there is plenty of crap on tropper is divorced is a dangerous guy look into him there is tons of scandal surronding him

[Alex]

Not content with this butchery alone, Rabbi Attiya went on to excoriate the state-sponsored Orthodox conversion courts and the rabbis who serve on them, calling them sinners and non-Jews.

lolololololololololololololololololol

ORTHODOX CALLING OTHER ORTHODOX GOYEM!!!!!!!!!

I guess they got bored venting over the CHelonim.

[The Grave Digger]

ברוך שלא עשני בהמה המתקרית חרדית

j. rosenblum (and chum rabbi atiya) can be called each in his own merit: yeshu (for yimach shmoy vezichroy).

and brochos (blessings) to them from tehilim 109:
7 When they are judged, let them go forth condemned; and let their prayer be turned into sin.
8 Let their days be few; let another take their charge.
12 Let there be none to extend kindness unto them;....
13 Let their posterity be cut off; in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that He may cut off the memory of them from the earth.
17 Yea, they loved cursing, and it came unto them; and they delighted not in blessing, and it is far from them.

[Alex]

HEY LAWRENCE U LISTINING? Orthodox calls other orthodox goyem now! roflroflrofl

[Garnel Ironheart]

Am I the only one who feels sorry for Rosenblum? Don't forget, it's his job to defend the indefensible. As Shmarya said, normally he writes very intelligently and articulately. This article is a piece of crap with arguments that are easy to refute. That, in itself, should tell you his heart wasn't in it.
In the end, there is no justification for what Attiah did. Maybe to say "Hey, there might be a problem here. Let's meet privately and see if there is" might have been acceptable but what he did breaks all rules of civility and decency, even chareidi ones!

[aryeh]

here are some facts about the mamzerut case referenced by jonathan rosenblum. The original conversion was done in poland. the girls family forced him to convert. the couple later moved to israel. there was no evidence of him leading a religious life. they seperated and she remarried. her children were in the army and wanted to get married. a bais din headed by Rabbi elayashiv looked into it and determined that the original conversion was valid and since she remarried without a proper divorce the children were judged mamzerim and unable to marry. Rabbi Goren,who was the chief rabbi of the IDF,was asked to look into it.Rabbi Goren ruled them legitamate and married them himself.Many people felt he was rewarded by recieving the chief rabbinate and rabbi elayashiv left the chief rabbinate because of the Langer case.His relations with Rabbi Ovadia Yosef,who was a part of Rabbi Elyashivs Bait Din,were extremely strained by the Langer Case

[Monsey Avenger]

Tropper would not be able to do all those things if Thomas Kaplan was not sponsoring him. Kaplan is the founder of Apex Silver (www.apexsilver.com) a public held company we have to let him , the shareholders and financial writers know what Tropper his doing with their money.


Some contact information:

[EDITED BY SITE OWNER.]

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Does Tropper have a son-in-law in kiruv?

[The Monsey Tzadik]

This is one creepy guy, yes, he does have very dark rumors about him. I wonder why The Awareness Center does not have a page about him.

His students are the weirdest of all the BT mills students here. They walk around spewing hate against Modern Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews, Chabbad, the state of Israel and the most hated one, the evil one, the big imposter; rabbi Noach Weinberg.

Tropper hates Rabbi Weinberg more than anything in the world.

No, I do not think he has any son-in-law (at least not from his current wife) he does have two daughters, Gila and Rina (or something like that)

I hope he does not molest them too.

[Shmarya]

People, please do not post people's phone numbers, fax numbers, home addresses, etc. in the comments.

Thank you.

[Shmarya]

aryeh –

Thank you for pointing out the connection between Rabbi Goren, Rabbi elyashiv and Rabbi Yosef.

Rabbi Rosenblum views himself as working for Rabbi Elyashiv. That he did not disclose Rabbi Elyashiv's role in that sad affair is telling.

It seems to me this is a breech of journaism ethics, something the Post should discipline him for.

The Post's editor is David Horovitz. Perhaps this blatant breech of ethics should be pointed out to him.

[Yankel]

Please note that unless the Awareness Center has specific information that a sexual crime or clergy impropriety has occurred they do not post any information about an individual.

I would urge anyone who has any information to contact the "The Awareness Center " directly.

[Bava Kama Sutra]

Tropper hates Rabbi Weinberg more than anything in the world.

LOL

More seriously, it is very sad that your story was not published, he and his sponsors should be exposed. (why did David refuse to take the assignment ?)

Maybe we could ping it to the UOJ, he gets results

[Nachum]

People like Rosenblum and his ilk on Cross-Currents (like, say, Menken) are sad cases. They became baalei teshuva (and left quite a lot) under the promise that the gedolim know everything and only a Charedi lifestyle is true. They then have to spend their lives defending anything the gedolim or Charedi world does, lest it invalidate their own choices. Nebach.

[Nachu]

Oh, one more thing: Rosenblum makes the classic Charedi fallacy of assuming that everyone thinks like Charedim. Therefore, if a Religious Zionist "Gadol" like R' Goren said something, every Religious Zionist Jew *must* agree with it, just as every Charedi agrees with their gedolim. Of course, this just isn't true: Modern Orthodoxy stands for people working it out for themselves.

(And, of course, the Chief Rabbinate, at least today, is not at all Modern Orthodox anyway.)

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Rabbi Attiya went on to excoriate the state-sponsored Orthodox conversion courts and the rabbis who serve on them, calling them sinners and non-Jews.

Did he really call them non-Jews? I ask because over here it was reported that he called them "heretics and criminals."

[yisroel]

Rosenblum and his ilk are taking advantage of the weak-kneed mo leadership that has been around for the past 50 years.

The mo leaders are a joke. Most of their kids are going to right wing charedei yeshivas here and in israel.

Most melamdim in mo schools are charedei.

The charediem are swallowing up the last remnants of modern orthodoxy and gleefuly spitting out the bones.

[frank]

to first commenter: you are a sick a pathological liar. You probably a rejealous at some feat by tropper (propbably money) that you go on a rampage and lie like this.

The Shiksa covnerted (kaplan) was NOT converted by tropper but by your friend HERBERT BOMZER and other chabad coleagues! TOrpper did NOT WANT convert! But Bomzer AND coMPANY did CONVERT! Look who are the sleaze money mongers and who has principles.

[Fred]

Scotty,

You are indeed the chanppion from the erev rav company that hates everything jewish. But to top it all off you are big ingoramus and know very little of halacha and has the chutzaph to challenge rabbonim.

For your information you laughable childish points tha t"kuloh" makes or breaks what constitutes a conversion would pass a 4rd grade talmud torah boy and even that itwould not muster. The Am hooratzim of the day and the haters of the era have hijacked the meaning of conversion. Conversion does NOT MEAN that you date a shiksa and you "convert" her for a "kuloh"; conversion menas entering the covenant of G-d no "kuloh" or compassion would allow to give a medical liscence for an amteus just for compassion and finding a "kuloh" for it. It would be irresponsible disastrous and endagering people's. but obviously you don't care about this, for all you care is you antisemitic venom at observant jews and animal love. Yididshkeyt is not your theme.

But for those folow yididshkeyt know thatconversion without observing the laws of shabbat and kashrut and taharat hamishpacha is a no starter and even if one declared that he would observe but we all knew that he was insincere (and it is clear that e have tools to know how a person is sincere or insincere : if the person attempts to lvie a jewish life or is able to live jewishly accordibng to his lifestyle or not) there was never an ounce for the begining of a conversion.

kudos for RAbbi Rosenblum. Obviously you AND your erev rav ilk cannot stand how he clings to obserant judaism and is a baal teshuva for more htan just a decade and he did not succumb to the pressures of the erev rav to revert to the paths of his origin on the contrary he still sees the beauty and most importantly the truth in torat hashem etc.

[frank]

one more point: your reference to Rav SZ Aurbauch is so laughable. Have you been familiar with his works itself (as opposed to your animal lovers and antisemitc diatribes) you would see how HE HIMSELF DECRIES MOST OF THESE PHONEY CONVERSIONS AND HE HIMSELF CONSIDERS THEM PHONEy!

[THEODORE]

You know: you lost ALL credibility. If you have tried or attempted to been even handed or fair there would be something to talk about. but you have shown that you are interestwed in yuor vendetta whenther it reflects the truth or nt. How can you LIE to state that TRopper admitted that he MISLED" the lady??? YOU ARE A PATHOLGOCIAL LIAR HE NEVER ADMITTED AS SUCH he claimed that he made amistake but not that he misled her. you mislead your audience with your antisemitic diatribes and LIES111 REMEMBER THE SEAL OF G-D IS TRUTH! AND YOU PUT HERE ACCUSATIONS OF PEOPLE AS TRUTH FOR YOUR VENDETTA: YOU ARE FAKE FRUAD UNETHICAL EREV RAV ANTISMEITC PIGGY SCOTTY!

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

First of all, Alex, whatever Attiyah called other Jews is as disgusting as Ben Gurion calling Jabotinsky "Vladimir Hitler," and it is despicable.

Second, after the entire rabbinic community condemned Rav Goren over the Langer case, how the hell (and I do mean hell) does Rosenblum now go and try to cite what Rav Goren did in the 1970s. If Rav Goren was wrong then (and he was) then Rabbi Attiyah is just as wrong now.

But then, consistency has always been the hobgoblin of non-Jewish minds.

Scotty, as Teddy Roosevelt would have said, "CHARGE!"

[Shmarya]

"Frank," and "Theodore" are the same person. Who is that person? avrohom, the notorious Chabad commenter so many of you begged me to ban.

I just banned him again.

Let me point out that this supposed religious person repeatedly uses different names on the same post, and does so to nmake it seem as if several people, rather than one demented soul, hold his views.

As for the substance of his claims, again, he doesn't know what he is is talking about. He confuses general directives with specific cases and valid halakhic theory with politics.

He misrepresents and lies, and does so as a Chabadnik. Enough said.

[Shmarya]

Frank, Theodore, avrohom writes:

How can you LIE to state that TRopper admitted that he MISLED" the lady??? YOU ARE A PATHOLGOCIAL LIAR HE NEVER ADMITTED AS SUCH he claimed that he made amistake but not that he misled her.

You'll note that my information comes from emails Tropper sent the family. You'll also note that avrohom appears to believe he has seen those emails.

avrohom is either delusional or close to Rabbi Leib Tropper.

[The Grave Digger]

The charediem are swallowing up the last remnants of modern orthodoxy and gleefuly spitting out the bones.

sez yisroel.
the truth is, chareidim and chabad, are busy burrying judaism.
if this is judaism, why be jewish?
G-d even wouldn't want that!

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Frank," and "Theodore" are the same person. Who is that person? avrohom.

Maybe he suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder.

[kalev]

scotty,

you are a sick liar you have no respect for truth whatsoever. you hae your agenda and that is it. you could have a million emails. tropper did NOT tell you he "misled" the lady. you are deranged...for no sane inidicidual would say that. what he told you is that hhe made a mistake and not that he misled them!

But frank and others are right: you are an ignoramus and so are the rest of your ilk who knows zero to nothing about halacha and sound off as the greatest sages. you are small 4rd grade children!!!

BTw: why do you rail against banning slifkin if you ban Avohom and others????

CONVERT TO THE NEW RELIGION ALREADY

[kalev]

scotty,

you are a sick liar you have no respect for truth whatsoever. you hae your agenda and that is it. you could have a million emails. tropper did NOT tell you he "misled" the lady. you are deranged...for no sane inidicidual would say that. what he told you is that hhe made a mistake and not that he misled them!

But frank and others are right: you are an ignoramus and so are the rest of your ilk who knows zero to nothing about halacha and sound off as the greatest sages. you are small 4rd grade children!!!

BTw: why do you rail against banning slifkin if you ban Avohom and others????

CONVERT TO THE NEW RELIGION ALREADY

[Shmarya]

The "Scott" who left comments on another post today and "Kalev" who left the commets above are really avrohom, the Chabadnik who leaves comments under multiple aliases to support his own arguments, as he has done again here.

I banned him for that reason awhile ago after warning him, but I did not get every one of his IPs. I'll keep banning him – shutting off the entire IP if necessary.

Note waht he writes above as "Kalev":

why do you rail against banning slifkin if you ban Avohom and others????

CONVERT TO THE NEW RELIGION ALREADY

This from a "religious" Jew. It's called geneivat daat, avrohom. Maybe you out to think about that.

http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2007/06/this-entire-post-is-plagiarized.html#comment-922507749970653352

UOJ Fan on Wall St said...
Before these misinformed people get worked up into a frenzy and start bothering Apex Silver Mines about Leib Tropper and Thomas Kaplan, let's get the facts straight.

It's true that Kaplan left hedge fund management in 1993 to found Apex but he retired in 2004 and was replaced by Phelps Dodge exec Jeff Clevenger.

Apex started as a Cayman Islands holding company in shutfus with George & Paul Soros.

http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2000/0807/6604064a.html

See this Forbes article for the background.

Commodities Trader said...
Tom Kaplan started Leor Energy, a gas exploration outfit in Houston when he resigned from Apex.

He's also the biggest individual shareholder in some companies like Afplats (African Platinum) and Southern African Resources (palladium mining) and likes sticking his nose into internal affairs. He's gone so far as to take out full page ads worth 400k in the Wall St Journal & London's Financial Times.

He's an Oxford Phd who may be currently living in Switzerland like Dovid Cohen's pals Pinky Green and Marc Rich.

[rabbidw]

Getting back to the main issue of the nullification of the conversion, No Beis Din can undo the work of another Beis Din. This is Elementary Halacha 101. Otherwise no case would ever be decided as there is always a chance that another beis Din would overule the firest. And maybe a third Beis Din will overule the second. What can be fdone is that others can differ on the law as expounded by the first Beis Din, and that law may not become a valid precedent, but there are no "appellate courts" and the decision of the first Beis Din stands as to its parties.
What Rabbi Goren did was extremely controversial just for that reason. But he stepped into a tradition of halachic authenticity, of trying to find a loophole to undo the stigma of mamzerut. I do not know if he cited this in his decision, but there is a precedent in American law that states that facts established in a case are only binding toward those represented in that case. For example, in a suit against Doctor A for negligence the jury finds that the negligence was really by Doctor B. That gets Doctor A off the hook, but does not bind Doctor B to that decision because Doctor B was not a party to that case and did not have a chance to put up his own case. When he does, his jury may very well come back with the opposite decision, that the negligence was with Docror A. What Rabbi Goren might have found that the children were not parties to the original Beis Din and their interests were not represented. Looking at the facts from the childrens point of view, he could nullify the conversion as ti affects them.
Anyway, as we were frequently taught tough cases make for bad precedents. But if any Bais Din can be overuled by any other Bais Din, there is no decision that cannot be overturned and the Conservative movement is correct. Why can't there Beis Din authorize whatever they want? Who says the Chareidim are bigger, Maybe they only wear bigger and blacker hats.

Kaplan started Leor Energy with his Portugese / Brazillian nephew named Guma Aguiar.

Guma Aguiar
Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Phone: [EDITED BY SITEOWNER]

[PLEASE DO NOT POST PEOPLE'S PHONE NUMBERS, ADDRESSES, ETC. THANK YOU.]

What's the problem if the company's website publicly lists the contact info?

[Shmarya]

You have not made a case to link these people with any criminal acts. Encouraging the public to call and harass them – which is what you are in effect doing – is illegal, unless those calls are based on company business or policies and the like.

[ed]

>The charediem are swallowing up the last remnants of modern orthodoxy and gleefuly spitting out the bones.

Ha! And all the MO can do in return is to spew all their vomit and bile on blogs. What pathetic losers.

[ed]

And no, I'm not Avrohom/Kalev etc.. Shmarya can confirm that.

[Yochanan Lavie]

"Ha! And all the MO can do in return is to spew all their vomit and bile on blogs. What pathetic losers."

What wonderful ahavat yisrael! Are all Modern Orthodox Jews "pathetic losers?" Or just Shmarya, in your opinion? Please clarify.

[Alex]

The Orthodox have nothing to offer except an implausable creation story, strict rules that make no practical sense, hatred of the outside, POVERTY, and promises of joy in the next world ... all u have to do is suffer in this one.

"Please join us in our economic DEATH MARCH so that you can be successful in the next world ... which probably exists because abah told me it does."

The only sane thing to do is run from the frum world. Scientific investigation, college and carrer guidance, and having fun in life are for apikoruses.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex:

I dig your righteous anger, but don't tar everyone with the same brush. Modern Orthodox Jews work for a living, are usually college educated, and sometimes do not take everything in the torah literally. However, they are observant. Unfortunately, they are squeezed by both the right (who have contempt for them as compromisers and "pathetic losers") and the left (who regard them as obscurantists).

I cannot, in all intellectual honesty, call myself Modern Orthodox anymore. I am too much of a freethinker, and my praxis is more Conservative these days. But I have friends in that community, and I daven at an MO shul, where I'm also active. So that's where my sympathies lie.

I think the MO should form their own denomination, and stop looking over their right shoulder for approval that will never come.

[Alex]

From my experience, Yochanan, Modern Orthodox is orthodox mentality minus the standard black and white attire. there are no real discernable differences.

I think people should focus more on being Jewish as a nationality and not so much as a religion. The religion just is not compatable with modern times particularly because of shabat and kasharut.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I respectfully disagree. True, many MO are now plainclothes chareidim. That's because they have abdicated their roles as educational and rabbinic leaders in their community. So black hats brainwash their kids.

But I think human beings need religion. (That may address how our brains are wired rather than if God exists, but that's another conversation). And rituals such as shabbat and kashrut sacrilize time and food- some things our postmodern junk culture have debased. I no longer wear a kippah full time, but I keep shabbat. It keeps me sane in this 24/7 world.

Secular nationalism has been tried, both in Labor Zionism and in Bundism (diaspora Yiddish nationalism). It lasted only a few generations. I dislike the quietism of certain strands of Orthodoxy- I too am a Jewish nationalist. But so far, secular Jewish nationalism has not been sustainable.

However, I agree that there should be greater flexibility in halacha. And the evidence of science should not be ignored. I do manage to live in the (post)Modern world, even with shabbat and kashrut.

I wish you well, but total secularism is not emotionally fulfilling for me.

[Alex]

i wish u well also, but i don't feel an intrinsic need for "emotional fufillment" and I personally cannot understand the concept. I understand "emotional stability" and that I have without religion.

[ed]

>What wonderful ahavat yisrael! Are all Modern Orthodox Jews "pathetic losers?" Or just Shmarya, in your opinion? Please clarify.

I was obviously refering to all the Haredi haters.

[Anon]

Shmarya, assuming you were in agreement that Rabbi Druckman's initial conversion of this woman was in fact invalid would you agree with Rabbi Attia's ruling?

UOJ is all over Tropper with details still developing.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"However, I agree that there should be greater flexibility in halacha"

There IS often greater flexibility - but it's not being taught and ruled upon by "Modern Orthodox" rabbis. In this sense, Alex's comment:

"From my experience, Yochanan, Modern Orthodox is orthodox mentality minus the standard black and white attire. there are no real discernable differences."

...appears increasingly correct, and is being ruled with an iron hand by the RCA and the OU, the later of which is in no way, shape, or form truly "Modern Orthodox".

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Alex wrote:

"The only sane thing to do is run from the frum world. Scientific investigation, college and carrer guidance, and having fun in life are for apikoruses."

...and then:

"I think people should focus more on being Jewish as a nationality and not so much as a religion. The religion just is not compatable with modern times particularly because of shabat and kasharut."

It saddens me that the impact of the rigidity of Orthodoxy is to lead you to these conclusions. They are incorrect: in fact, many religious Jews live in a reality that does not require giving up secular knowledge, fun, or good (kosher) food. Keeping mitsvoth doesn't have to be painful. On the other hand, defining Jews as people that have a rich legacy in bagels and lox is not a recipe for the future - or, more seriously, for trying to perform the work required to try to heal the world and create holiness in your life.

You might consider finding a Conservative rabbi near you that observes Shabbat and kashruth - some don't, but many do - and open your mind to the possibility that religious Judaism is not incompatible with a life of enjoying the pleasures haShem created for us. Keep fighting, keep questioning, and keep seeking - but have the open mind to consider the answers offered.

I hope some day you'll find such a path as powerful and fulfilling as I have been blessed to discover.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, assuming you were in agreement that Rabbi Druckman's initial conversion of this woman was in fact invalid would you agree with Rabbi Attia's ruling?

My suspicion that it was invalid is different than proof. For it to be invalid, one must show that the convert deceived the beit din and that the convert never intended to keep mitzvot. Neither is true here.

If it were true, then the next question is one of impact – what will this do to the children, etc., and how best can this be handled.

What Rabbi Attiyah did fits neither scenario. The only thing that should be revoked is Rabbi Attiya's smicha.

[Anon]

You did not answer my question. My question is if R' Attia is correct that the conversion is without any doubt invalid would you then agree that he is right. To put it differently is your disagreement with R' Attia that he was in error in ruling that the conversion is invalid or is your disagreement with him that even if his legal conclusion is right then it is still not proper to rule that this woman and her children are not jewish?