Rabbi Steinman: "A Trade is Poison," Women must get only "the minimum of the minimum" education, Coopertion with Modern Orthodox rabbis "uprooting the religion"

The Gerrer Rebbe and Rabbi Aryeh Leib Steinman went to Western Europe on a "spiritual" mission. They spoke to audiences in England, France and Belgium. Here is the core of Rabbi Steinman's message, as reported by Ha'aretz:

…Rabbi Steinman is 93 years old and is revered throughout the ultra-Orthodox world, even by those who do not belong to his designated audience. His trips abroad are a sharp divergence from the usual habits of other rabbinical leaders from his world, which is generally quite introverted. Both he and the Gerrer rebbe have been recruited into activities that were until now the sole domain of Chabad, even if this didn't include the distribution among women of candles for the Sabbath, or invitations to the men to lay tefillin. Steinman, the dominant one of the two as a speaker, headed off to Europe with a luggage filled with a strictly ultra-Orthodox message - which he had packed all by himself.

Rabbis Elyashiv (left) and Steinman (right).

What is the importance of this? As recently as a few years ago, the elderly leader of the Lithuanian yeshiva world represented the pure hope of moderate religious and secular people who regarded him as an ultra-Orthodox reformer who was afraid of nothing; a moderate ultra-Orthodox leader who was prepared to be flexible in a way that no other ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi leader had been flexible for the past 60 years. This week, in Marseille, Lyon and Paris, he presented an unswerving and uncompromising ultra-Orthodox line. In Marseille, for example, he was asked by local rabbis how to treat young men who had left the yeshivas and "cannot find themselves either here or there." Rabbi Ohana asked him: "Would it be possible to set up a yeshiva for them where they would also learn a trade?"

"You are saying that since he is already not good, then we should send him to learn a trade?" Steinman replied. "That is merely adding poison to poison. A trade is poison."

About the education of children, he said that it was absolutely forbidden to teach them secular subjects, declaring: "Everything must be merely Torah." In his previous trips to America and France, he also said that education for women must be kept to "the minimum of the minimum." About the prospect of cooperating with modern-Orthodox rabbis, he said that it was tantamount to "uprooting the religion." …

Earlier, I called Rabbi Steinman an idiot savant. Some of you asked me to take it back. I now agree. I do take it back. The man is certainly an idiot. A savant in any form? That I'm not sure of.

[Hat Tip: Ben Qor'ha.]

Comments

[Zach Kessin]

To bad he didn't declair it usser to ask Modern orthodox folks for money.

[Alex]

This is a clear cut case of abuse of women.

The reason why the ultraorthodx are afraid of women getting educated is because if the women have the dinero to support themselves ... they wont take this shit from lazy bums that just want to study and
not work.

[Alex]

Its also a case of abuse of children. Schools without secular studies supervised by the state should be illegal.

[Alex]

Its also a case of abuse of children. Schools without secular studies supervised by the state should be illegal.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Yah, yah, yah. Rav Schteinmann also caused the holocaust, no?

He is the founder of the Nachal Haredi, several haredi trade-schools, but a trade is poison. Yeah, the old man suddenly became an Alice Cooper fan.

Of course, the mere suggestion that a known anti-religious paper would distort, spin, doctor or otherwise take out of context or omit things is a conspiracy theory by vast right wing conspirators.

[gross]

Who listens to this crazy old puppet? What does he have in common with the average guy? Take the word "gedolim" and throw it in the garbage - it's meaningless.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex: In the United States, it is illegal to deny children a secular education (at least until age 16). The Amish give their kids a minumum of education, and then teach their kids a trade- so they remain religiously faithful but economically self-sufficient. Steinman's American followers will have to keep their kids in school (for secular subjects) at least unit 9th-10th grade. But they will then be unemployable and eligible for welfare and tzedekah. As a fiscal conservative, I don't believe in supporting indolent welfare slobs, no matter what their religion. Even King David worked as a shepherd.

[Anon]

Here we have a situation where Jews of France, chareidi, modern orthodox, ashkenazi, sefardi and even secular, came together in a tremendous show of achdus yet Shmarya manages to find a way to insult. I have relatives in France that are not religious (they go to shul on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur). They told me that they were incredibly moved by the event. Yet Shmarya from his armchair in the U.S. thinks he has all the answers. Shmarya, are you even observant? I think it is only fair that those reading your blog know what type of person is making all these statements.

BTW, one of my relatives is quite friendly with Rabbi Ohana. He queried Rabbi Ohana about this statement and Rabbi Ohana told him that R' Steinman point was not intended to be a general anti-trade statement, just that for children who are at risk (from a religious perspective), trying to teach them a trade and place them in the working world would only serve to push them further away from judaism.

[Anon]

--Of course, the mere suggestion that a known anti-religious paper would distort, spin, doctor or otherwise take out of context or omit things is a conspiracy theory by vast right wing conspirators.--

Joe, as I noted earlier, Shmarya's readers know by know that the only truth is what Shmarya thinks up while sitting in his armchair. Please don't suggest otherwise as Shmarya doesn't like criticism. Its not good for his ego.

[AC]

actually,
you cant deny this statement was made. as I mentioned elsewhere on this blog, the statement 'it's better to beg for charity then to have your parnasah through the internet' was made by a 'gadol' recently.
this is very frightning and if this continues i dont think i will consider myself one with these factions
i live in lakewood right now and we are currently making plans TO MOVE AWAY as soon as our lease is up
its pretty sad that this is what torah has come to mean to these people
what should be a religion of truth and love has been turned into a religion of hate and nonsense
we are currently looking for a place where our family can live a life of truth and ahavat yisrael
hopefully these gedolim will end these trips because they are infecting more and more towns with this faulty ideology and there wont be anywhere to left to move to escape!
I want my children to be educated and to be able to support themselves, how can one trust these gedolim and their emunah(?) WHEN THEY CANNOT MANAGE THE PEOPLE CURRENTLY UNDER THEIR RULE, HOW CAN THEY TRY TO RECRUIT MORE!
How many more CHARITY REQUESTS will we be seeing in the future? Where is the money going to come from when the working public is ostracized?

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Honest and decent driticism is not only long overdue, but also necessary for our survival as a society.
I have nothing against learning in Kollel, I was in Kollel myself until 4 years ago. Now I make a relatively acceptable salary (less than 100K, but I can live W/O debt, gmach et al, without even a HS diploma. And I never touched any gov't handouts. Just shows you that the States truly are a goldene medine, yet the leftists/commies of the world can't have enough bashing it.) What I can't stand is the institutionalized (or almost - at least openly tolerated) brazen welfare abuse and dependance thereof. The mishna says "pas bemelach umayim bimsurah" - if you're not willing to commit to a life of poverty for the sake of Torah, if you want to give up your honesty and integrity for it, I believe it's better to get up and go to work - with all the pitfalls of the secular workplace. Yes, there is enough corruption and theft there too, in addition to promiscuity and other negative influences.
I believe that the hard-line stance of the rabonim is in part fuelled by the haredi-hater DogSmears and FailedContraceptions.

In certain instances the choice is between presrving the original society as it is at the peril of losing some, vs. watering it down and keeping higher numbers. Those whou can't/don't want to be fully haredi have many other options.

[formelly frum]

how could anybody think this person Rabbi Steinman is a godol, he seems very unlearned and never studied or looked at the Talmud.

The Talmud states, a father who does not teach their son a trade, teaches his son to steal.

Wow, looks like the rabbis from the Talmud where pretty smart

[anon]

Almost all these fervently religious steal. One day the US government might start to look at the duplicitous dealings of our Haredim and watch out for all of us to be targets of anti-semitism. These bums say it is okay to steal from goyim. One great one these bums do is to inflate their enrollment and get funding for phantom students. Not all are bums but I can give a list of all the institutions who will only buy when they get the billing done as they require it. It was not different in Europe as they had the excuse that it was the only way to make parnasah. Different scams but still stealing from the goyim.

Vishnitz US is one of the most corrupt institutions. They play all sorts of games with their federal funding.

Does anyone know the position of Rav S or Reb on phony Pell Grant filings?

[Anon]

--Honest and decent driticism is not only long overdue, but also necessary for our survival as a society.--

Honest and decent criticism are unfortunately sorely lacking. Shmarya seems to be trying to fill some of the void on the missing criticism but seems to have forgotten about the honest and decent.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

"Honest and decent criticism are unfortunately sorely lacking. Shmarya seems to be trying to fill some of the void on the missing criticism but seems to have forgotten about the honest and decent." 100% correct. Exactly my point.

"Almost all these fervently religious steal. One day the US government might start to look at the duplicitous dealings of our Haredim " Dream on, baby, dream on. Don't hold your breath for trhat. What all the haredim combined together steal from the government is not even a tiny fraction of what the taxpayer has to pay for Mexians, Negroes, white trash and other corrupt rabble. The funding will never end as votes are being cast in return. And don't expect it to appear on Butt-Bear and Dov-Head. Or failed contraception, for instance.

Unfortunately, in order to subdue our enemies within and without, and to eradicate the deeply ingrained culture of corruption and parasitism, we'd have to team up with an old anti-Semite friend, Mr. Patrick J. Buchanan and other hard-liners, such as Peter Brimelow, Jared Taylor, Tom Tancredo, Alan Keyes, Michael Savage, Michael Fumento, Steve King et al. Not happening. Not until it;s too late.

[AC]

Funny how "right-wing" and haredi-defenders drop in and out of this blog...
Yossi Izrael won't be here long... once he realizes he's not defending God, but rather a faulty ideology which calls itself "the only way"
If you were defending God, and being truly honest with yourself, you would see that these people are threatening the future of the Jewish religion.

[Abe]

It was predictable that idiots like rabbi Steinman would denounce education for men under his nefarious spell. He is equally as contemptuous of schooling for men. Ignorance breeds ignorance and Steinman is an exemplar of this pervesity that infects haredim.
But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

[Abe]

It was predictable that idiots like rabbi Steinman would denounce education for women under his nefarious spell. He is equally as contemptuous of schooling for men. Ignorance breeds ignorance and Steinman is an exemplar of this pervesity that infects haredim.
But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

[B.BarNavi]

"Here we have a situation where Jews of France, chareidi, modern orthodox, ashkenazi, sefardi and even secular, came together in a tremendous show of achdus yet Shmarya manages to find a way to insult."

Translation from Haredi-apologist-ese: Achdus only matters under the ideology (and authority) of Haredim. When non-Orthodox (or even Modern Orthodox) Jews cross denominational lines for the sake of unity? Feh.

[Anon]

--Translation from Haredi-apologist-ese: Achdus only matters under the ideology (and authority) of Haredim. When non-Orthodox (or even Modern Orthodox) Jews cross denominational lines for the sake of unity? Feh.--

Since you are addressing my comment I will respond. In my case neither I nor my relatives in France, based on whose observations I made my comment, can be termed haredim by any stretch of the imagination. My relatives are completely non-observant. Assuming you are even moderately orthodox, I can assure you I am less haredi than you are. I periodically attend services in certain traditional conservative synagogues which probably ranks up there with idolatry for most haredim. I don’t for a moment delude myself into thinking that my views are even remotely similar to those of R’ Steinman. But when I see the venom spewed by Shmarya and others on this blog, I begin to understand why some haredim refer to us as self-hating jews.

[Alex]

Anon-> Mr. Genius, I don't think anyone in here hates OURSELVES, uhhhhhhhh we're Jewish, no?

These bums that don't work are THEEE ultimate threat to the jewish religion. When they realize that they don't got the $$$ to have fun or even to survive in the real world ... are they going to blame themselves for thinking that going college is evil? NO! They're gonna blame GOD!!!!!!!

If anything Shmarya is exposing the suicide mission that the ultra orthodox are takinging Judaism on.

[Dave]

My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

[Dave]

My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

[ed]

>But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

Good Morning. The aren't any out there with enough respect to denounce Gedolim of R Steinman's stature .

Rabbi Steiman spent his lifetime immersed in Torah. There's no one in your MO world who comes close.

[ed]

>My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

The only ones who are consistent with the Torah are the Haredim and MO.

Haredim have many Gedolim. How many do the MO have? Who are they? Why aren't they adopting positions of leadership?

[ed]

>The reason why the ultraorthodx are afraid of women getting educated is because if the women have the dinero to support themselves ... they wont take this shit from lazy bums that just want to study and
not work.

Pure BS. Our women are proud to support their husbands who are sitting and learning.

[AC]

~Pure BS. Our women are proud to support their husbands who are sitting and learning.

That's what she tells you... but in her heart, she hates you for it.
While you sit on your butt talking trash(gossip, hock, sports) playing with your cell phones and smoking cigarettes, shes out in the trenches struggling to bring home $50k+ a year to pay for your Shabbes hat and shoes(it's halacha, you have to have them).
While you are strolling home from first seder for your 2-3 hour lunch break thinking your a gadol for your misirat nefesh, she's eating crackers and tuna fish at her desk so she can get more hours in.
Then you buy her flowers in appreciation on erev Shabbes, with her money(or her fathers money)... Yea, she's real proud,
I think she's brainwashed.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Welcome to Bizarro World. In Bizarro Judaism, education is poison, stealing is a mitzvah, modern (religious) people are not scholars, a dead man is the Messiah, work is for women (as is child-rearing), slavery is freedom, ignorance is bliss, yichus trumps individual achievement, welfare is an entitlement (after all, everyone does it, so that justifies our doing it), outward appearence (suits, hats) is more important than sincerity, and God is full of hatred. Defend it if you will, or better yet, blame me (after all, I am an ignorant apikorus), but it has nothing to offer the vast majority of Jews, who remain unaffiliated. Who can blame them?

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

AC: "Yossi Izrael won't be here long..." True. What makes you think I have a tenure here?

"once he realizes he's not defending God," what in my words says, hints or insinuates that?

"...you would see that these people are threatening the future of the Jewish religion."
Yes, in a way.
But if your IQ were higher than 37, you'd be able to figure out that I am critical of most orthodox leadership and people (haredi, MO and anyting in between).
(And yes, as far as Judaism is concerned, orthodoxy -in a wider sense- is the only way. Reform, conservative, reconstitutionist etc., are no different that samaritans, karaites, christians and rastafarians. Actually one of your fellow communazis pointed this out in one of these comments.)

The fact that our society has many problem does is not license for outsiders - most bona fide Jew-haters, often motivated by ulterior motives - to spew htred, lies and incendiary speech against us. Yes, we have nuts like "ed", yet so far none of them sunk the altalena or refused to rescue innocent men women and children from the holocaust beacuse they were frum, they did not betray their (our) soldiers - sending them under enemy fire without equipment and hands tied, they didn't go to corrupt criminal FDR to get him reject the St. Louis, they did not refuse medical treatent to non-religious pepole, they didn't send the police to beat women and infants to death and to drag people out of their homes - and the list goes on and on and on. But of course, for the average anti-haredi brownshirt all this doesn't count. He ignores the tenured reform, conservative, MO professors and politicians fressing a 1000 times more public funds than all haredim combined together. When's the last time you heard any of these haredi-bashing saints who hold the law in such dear awe speak out against illegal immigration and employing illegal immigrants? Have you even given a mere thoght to the fact that until 25-30 years ago you could have made a decent living stacking shelves in a supermarket, so one could do both work and learn?

You guys ignore the extremist far-left tfillin-burning kibbutzim that draim israel's blood dry. Only the haredim are the cause of all the of the world's problems. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right, but you have to criticise yourself FIRST and then others as I do on my blog).
Read my previous comments, and if that won't do go to my blog. See especially my earlier posts.

As I said, the posers who claim to be fair critics just cause most of us to tighten up more. I don't walk into your living room telling you to pick up the toys and the trash, so you don't walk into mine.

You have a lot to fix before you spew hatred on others. And ditto for Shmarya. Even if he often has a point, he'd better present it in a non-Sturmer way, please.

[ed]

>but it has nothing to offer the vast majority of Jews, who remain unaffiliated. Who can blame them?

I can. Stop swallowing all the gossip and slander that gets spewed here, and get some real info instead.

Instead of visiting this FailedRetard, consider instead a visit to R Steinmans home.

I guarentee you that you will leave in awe and respect.

[formally frum]

ed,

Just saying he is a learned man immersed in Torah is not enough, defend his statement.

And Ed I was in yeshiva and most Kollel guys and full of it living of their wifes lucky if they learn 3 hours a day.

We should market a internet video cam
attached to the kollel man. The wife who is working and proud to support her Kollel husband then can check on him to see if she is getting her monies worth.

My guess would be there will be many shocked
wifes and maybe even a revolt by woman who have been conned for so long.

[ed]

>Just saying he is a learned man immersed in Torah is not enough, defend his statement.

OK. I'll give it a shot soon.

>And Ed I was in yeshiva and most Kollel guys and full of it living of their wifes lucky if they learn 3 hours a day.

I don't know which Yeshiva you attended, but from my experience in Lakewood, I can say that the majority were sincere in their learning.

>We should market a internet video cam attached to the kollel man. The wife who is working and proud to support her Kollel husband then can check on him to see if she is getting her monies worth.

Let's also do that with all the bloggers who blog on their bosses time.

>My guess would be there will be many shocked wifes and maybe even a revolt by woman who have been conned for so long.

Let's also attach some cameras to the MO men and show their wives where they truly go on "Mishmar night".

Please, this slander campaign is silly and stupid. No one is perfect and no system can be perfect. Everyone has virtues and failures. What's the point of only highlighting the slander and gossip?

[formely frum]

you make some points however the Talmud says
a father must teach his son a trade. Kollel is a new and recent. Many of the Talmudic scholars worked and did not sit and learn all dfay.

In addition, we the secular do not claim we are holy and problem we wash away because we are secular.Heridei claim, if only all would be religious socialites problem would end.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ed and Yossi make some salient points. Undoubtedly, there are many hard-working and sincere chareidim. Also, I am not against some kollel learning- it just shouldn't be a requirement for everybody. Theoretical knowledge, such as astrophysics and talmudic scholarship, benefit society in ways that we can't always see immediately. But it should be an experience for the most talented scholars, who show potential to be gedolim. It is not economically viable as universal model- and can lead to abuses.

As for abuses in the wider society- true enough. I am for the most part politically conservative. I am fully aware of the sins of liberalism in America, or of Labour-Zionism in Israel. But someone else's bad behavior does not justify other bad behavior. Torah Judaism should be above that.

As for this blog, I personally don't think it's a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer, as some of you guys do. Where abuses exist, we need to expose them. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. The old boy network cannot be trusted. That's where FailedM. come in. (Granted, the rhetoric is excessive at times- so cry me a river).

What I cannot abide is a form of Judaism- call it Chareidi, MO, Reform, whatever, that dengrates all forms of secular education, calls a trade "poison," and turns women into work horses so that men can go off and be holy. Many of our sages worked for a living.

[Dave]

I think that it is unfortunate that people seem to equate reform, conservative, Karaites and Samaritans with Christianity.
Reform, conservative, Karaites and Samaritans are all Torah-based faiths, and as such are part of the Jewish/ Israelite faith.
Whether you or I agree with them is beside the point. They still cannot be equated with Christianity, which is a totally different religion.

[Dave]

Yochanan, I agree with you.
It is well known that during the Talmudic period, the vast majority of the scholars has full-time proper remunerative jobs.
In fact even various haredi writers (including I believe Steinsaltz?) admit that the full time sessions of the Babylonian academy with most of the scholars in attendance (as opposed to ongoing sesssions) were only held a few times per year, during the holiday periods.

[formely frum]

My grandfather was a dayen (spelled wrong) in the old country and well respected. A Munchach/satmer chussid and was very much opposed to Kollel. He said if someone wants to learn he can do that before and after work. Learning Talmud should be treated as a 9-5 job.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

YL - missed point.

"But it should be an experience for the most talented scholars, who show potential to be gedolim." How many Kollel people are there? WHat percentage of all observant Jews are they?

"someone else's bad behavior does not justify other bad behavior. Torah Judaism should be above that" Exactly my view. Re-read comment. My objection was that outsiders who themselves aren't better shouldn't do this. True, because it's not done internally we deserve the DogSmears and FailedContraceptions of the world. That however does not justify them.

"As for this blog, I personally don't think it's a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer," No? The guy who whitewashes the crimes of the Church during the Shoah, but jumps at every Rav's throat at every opportunity is not "a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer"???? Since when?

"that dengrates all forms of secular education, calls a trade "poison,"" Don't drink the cool aid before you bring it to the lab. Was the comment actually made? In what context? What did he mean? I'll quote from my first comment here: Rav Schteinmann is the founder of the Nachal Charedi and several trde schools for haredi people (men and women - separately). Maybe this is specifically what enrages so many people? That there are 'kosher' ways to make a living too? That you can learn secular subject without T&A's and pro-sexual deviance rhetoric and fagget brainwash?

"and turns women into work horses" //SIGH// Some people are definitely insatiable. The Larry Flint Democrats (NSDAP) aka. the feminist movement screams from one side of their anuses that women must be freed and get to be truck drivers, heavy-industry workers and "exotic dancers" etc., that this is a woman's dignity, yet from the other side they scream men turn women into whores and work horses. Come on.

"Many of our sages worked for a living." True. Many worked for a bare minimum to survive and dedicater 99.9% of their time to sereve G-d. The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc. Same is true about Teaneck, they just have different venues to work the system.

As I said before "kshoit atsmecha ukshoit acheirim".

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Rabbi Steiman spent his lifetime immersed in Torah. There's no one in your MO world who comes close."

That's uncomfortably close to avodah zara, as if often the case for those who need to declare "My father can beat up your father, so there!"

Torah is not in Heaven - it only exists now in the world. Those who hide from the world (seeking Heaven) in Yeshevoth and Kollels, therefore, cannot be immersed in Torah. Rabbi Steinman may the the nicest haredi rabbi in the world, but his lack of constant real-world interaction disqualifies him in my mind from being the best-of-the-best as you believe. Our sages of the past were working men, and understood Torah from that perspective; they were the real deal. I would look to those who emulate that experience of combining learning with work as having the best shot at offering Torah knowledge I can respect and follow.

[AC]

"Many of our sages worked for a living." True. Many worked for a bare minimum to survive and dedicater 99.9% of their time to sereve G-d. The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc.

yossi and ed,
I am IN LAKEWOOD right now, so I think you guys dont really have a clear picture of everyone commenting on this board.
On the other hand, I guess you guys see the problems just as clearly as the rest of us, you're just too SCARED to speak up. You feel that by defending the bums you are DEFENDING GOD. You feel that by defending a faulty system God will somehow favor you...
This is not the way it works, that is what is called a chasid shoteh, chasid am ha-aretz. Someone who thinks they are being pious, but instead causing damage and defending falsehood.
Why don't the "gedolim" realize that they too are doing the same thing??

and btw, its not a Jaguar, its a leased Honda or Toyota Camry that's in right now
and buying "european" clothing for the kids

[Anon]

"The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc."

Excuse me, but I happen to have good information that most shnooks from kollel are satisfied with 2900SF and that most shnooks from kollel are also too savvy to buy a Jaguar which has a pretty lousy reliability rating.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

AC, you're clearly not only stupid but very, very sick too. You repeat your own foolish words like a parrot. Go back and read all my comments here, and then tell me with a straight face that I'm scared to speak up. Go to my blog as well. The difference between wussie lying frauds like Orthodox Un-Jew, ADovHitBear and FailedContraception and me, is that I am part and parcel of Chareidi society and don't hide behind anonymouses, I don't make up false stories, don't slander and don't put people down just for what "party" they belong to, as the aforementioned do. If there is a problem, it has to be dealt with, and if not, it has to be publicised in order to fix it. Spewing haterd doesn't solve anything, especially from people who are 100 times worse. Now pull your sorry head out of where it is and read all I said again, and then shoot your brave mouth.

[Shmarya]

"Joe" –

1. I am not anonymous.

2. I source all my posts.

3. I was haredi when I started blogging.

You can denigrate and call me or UOJ or DB names as much as you want. However, none of that changes 40 years of haredi coverups of rabbi-on-boy rape and sexual abuse, coverups involving many of your so-called gedolim.

You don't like it? Tough luck.

[AC]

Joe Israel,
The system doesn't want to hear this, that's why it's discussed on this blog.
It's funny that you think everyone is wrong and you are right. I have seen your website and it seems to me you are only looking at the problems from the place you choose to look from. It seems to me you are candy coating your opinions by denigrating other blogs and opinions. Just like you have a right to say "sinat chinam" is the cause of problems(which is true), others have a right to say the gedolim are the problem(which is true).
Why should I or anyone else here care about your blog and opinion, when you don't care about other opinions save yours... maybe your're just here to advertise your blog?
In all honesty, you seem to be trying to cover up for the haredim and gedolim because you think "it's the right thing to do", not because you believe in the system.
Am I repeating myself?

[ed]

>The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc.

Well said. Its the **shnooks** who don't belong in kollel to begin with who want these things. The majority of kollelniks don't have such Hasogos.

[ed]

>yossi and ed,
I am IN LAKEWOOD right now, so I think you guys dont really have a clear picture of everyone commenting on this board.

Great. Tell me how many kollel guys sit and learn full sedarim.

[Alex]

Its about time the ultraorthodx get called for the heresey that they are. Judaism does not espouse ignorance. Judaism hates the lack of knowledge, something that the ultraorthodox does espouse.

[ed]

AC, you wrote:

"I want my children to be educated and to be able to support themselves"

Tell me, how many families live in Lakewood, and how many are in Kollel? How many working?

[ed]

>Its about time the ultraorthodx get called for the heresey that they are. Judaism does not espouse ignorance.

Ignorance of Torah, that is. How you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?

>Judaism hates the lack of knowledge, something that the ultraorthodox does espouse.

Since when does "knowledge" equal "art", "english literature" and incorrect science?

[ed]

>How you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?

Should've read:

Have you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?

[Alex]

Ed- the laws of nature are God's laws just as much as Shulchan Aruch is. Knowledge of the humanities enable a persons mind to express himself in an educated way, and understand the past, and be creative with literature or with art.

Steinman and Elyashiv should be excommunitaed immediately for supporting that people should be stupid.

PS. Ed, in the equation X + 5 = 10, what is x? I bet you're gonna say 50! lol

[Alex]

lol typo, excommunicated

[Alex]

lol typo, excommunicated

[ed]

>Steinman and Elyashiv should be excommunitaed immediately for supporting that people should be stupid.

More malicious slander. Keep it up. Your ignorance is showing through more and more.

[formely frum]

correction

My grandfather was a dayen (spelled wrong) in the old country and well respected. A Munchach/satmer chussid and was very much opposed to Kollel. He said if someone wants to learn he can do that before and after work. Learning Talmud shouldn't be treated as a 9-5 job.

Also, if one lives the life of luxury, what is one giving up to study Torah?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Yossi "Joe," thank you for taking the time to answer my post. This blog is not my only source on Judaism, or on chareidi Judaism. I know it's not a perfect venue, but I think it has value. We disagree about that. I am not anti-Chareidi- they should live and be well. I just don't want to subsidize anybody's lifestyle. And in some communities, it is almost the norm (at least for a few years)- and I think it's an unnecessary economic burden. No, I don't have the statistics, but it's the principle I oppose. Kollel should be for advanced scholars, in my opinion. I am afraid some people abuse the system (again- even if it's a minority, it's a shanda).

If Rabbi Steinman sponsored trade schools and the like- yashar koach to him. But I am still disturbed by some of the things he is quoted as saying.

As for women, if women want to balance work and family- great. If they want to be stay at home moms- also fine. But no one should be pressured by their community to take on more than they can handle.

In short, I respect you p.o.v., but we have to disagree.

ed- you write: Since when does "knowledge" equal "art", "english literature" and incorrect science?

To me it does. That is why I can never be chareidi. And that's the case for most Jews- whether unaffiliated or modern-traditional. You should live and be well, but there should be modern-traditional alternatives for apikorus-dik am-haaretzim like me.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Shmarya:

"1. I am not anonymous." True. I just threw you in the bag because the other similarities. You're however the least dishonest of the bunch, I'll grant you that much.

"2. I source all my posts." LOL, a Ha'aretz quote without the context and the exact meaning is a source for you? Might as well cut-and-paste from David Duke or David Irving, like your buddy DB.

"3. I was haredi when I started blogging." You never were. You were a Lubavitcher, a rogue occult cult. You left them because one of the few things the Rebbe has done right: refusing to recognize non-Jews as Jews. It's a well know fact thet Rav Ovadia was threatened and forced to change his original psak. I remeber mivtza Moshe and Miztza Shlomo well. First, we were amazed, then when we got to know them, we had no doubts anymore: the haredi rabbis were right! And just for the record, the only -heareth thou? the O-N-N-L-Y- society in which the Ethiopians fully and successfully integrated is habad. Yes, h-a-b-a-d, who required full conversions. And for the record: rav Moishe Feinstein also said not to bring them. It's a zionist ploy to further de-Judaize and demoralise the country.

"none of that changes 40 years of haredi coverups of rabbi-on-boy rape and sexual abuse," Unfortunately, you're absolutely right here. Nothing justifies that, and as I have said earlier, blogs like yours and the other brownshirts' are our punishment for being silent for so long. How many gdolim however knew what and when is very hard to know. Again, you and commisar DB spin it as if the Chazon Ish himself would have sent people to rape children.

Now, as many people here, including myself, have pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right: you hate us because you hate us, whatever the reasons are. You exploit our sins and vulnerabilities to attack us, exactly as Tom Metzger and the National Alliance do. It is tantamount to saying that since there no doubt were many Jewish criminals who perished in the Shoah, than the Shoah was justified. If you and your allies sincerely cared for the issues, were sincerely appalled by corruption, were concerned for our children's safety, you'd expose such offenses in all sectors. Where were you when Shlomo Aviner was shtupping every female in Bet-El? Where were you when Netiv Meir's ROSH YESHIVA was sleeping with all the boys for good grades, and Chayim Druckman and other top rabbis hushed the whole affair? Where were you gus during the Charlie Kushner affair? Where was the MO leadership? How come Yosef Blau only goes after haredi child molesters? You tellin' me since he started his organization not one kid was molested in the MO community? What about your great Tzaha"l where those filthy haredim refuse to serve? Did you know that there is an open culture of officers sleeping with every nekeiva for vacation or other benefits? Did you know that it's an open secret, never allowed to be revealed in the media, and very few officers are ever court-marshalled. (sometimes the girls or the officers' wives sue for vengeance). See, everyone likes to coverup his own crap. Is it justified? Absolutely not. But it's certainly not up to outsiders to selctively pick and chose the issues, falsify many, spin and take them, out of context to smear the world's smallest community. You just want revenge because you didn't become moshiach or a great rebbe.

"You don't like it?" Of course not. But you seem to love it.

Of course I would love my community to act like real men and not tolerate such things. Of course I'd like child rapists to be dragged in the street, tarred and feathered and set on fire. But then you'd scream we're savages and barbarians and habeas corpus and fair treatment for criminals. There's no winning with you guys. Check out how DB hugs Arafat, Teddy Kennedy, David Irving and Bill clinton. And how you hug and exonerate the Catholic church from its role in the shoah.

" Tough luck." Tough something else indeed. There is however a scant light at the end of the tunnel. Many are starting to open their eyes and change things. It won't happen overnight, and it certainly won't come from hateful bloggers. And you guys will go down in history as the vilest enemies of Judaism.

AC, unfortunately you're too arrogant and stupid for me to answer you. You can buy more memory for your computer, but not more brains. I can't concieve how on earth you got "In all honesty, you seem to be trying to cover up for the haredim and gedolim ", but again - staniding up against lies and slander is not the same as covering up real issues. As I said check the OLDER (jun-sep '06) articles. Moron.

Yochanan, please give me until tomorrow. Or later. I don't like being on the computer so much. I also resent system abuse, unfortunately the problem is bigger than you think. It also exists in MO communities, in other forms. The effect on your pocket, however, is nearly imperceptible, as I said before, b/c the kollel guys aren't even 1% of 1% of the blacks, mexicans, white trash and academic parasites whom we all must support.

read: http://theantisemite.blogspot.com/2006/07/tyranny-and-mutation-when-tolerance-is.html

http://theantisemite.blogspot.com/2006/08/wall.html

http://theantisemite.blogspot.com/2006/09/in-tuition.html

http://theantisemite.blogspot.com/2006/11/vaad-harabonim-leinyonei-deyoma.html

http://theantisemite.blogspot.com/2006/11/fascists-of-israel.html

(the last one is especially about our subject. Some reading between the lines required too.)

i.e. the one b/f the last.
JI

[AC]

ok, Yossi, how about stopping defending a culture you admit needs help. Stop acting like its MO vs. Haredi you hypocrite, you dont preach ahavat chinam you liar.
You are a fraud till you see this, that's why I am focusing on you and that's why you are so defensive.

[AC]

"I don't like being on the computer so much."
~elitist nonsense

[Shmarya]

Joe –

1. I was haredi. I learned in haredi yeshivot and had left normal Chabad affilliation long before they excommunicated me for exposing the Rebbe.

2. The Nazi analogies you make are simply beyond the pale.

3. Rabbi Blau is deeply involved in stopping both haredi and MO child molestors. He has done much to make change.

4. All of the blogs you decry covered Kushner, etc.

5. What you do not understand is the haredi world has not made change. Kolko still escorts young boys to water parks and on outings. Other known rabbi child molestors still work in the haredi school system. Haredim oppose background checks, registries, and other means of ferreting out these sick men. More focus will naturally be put on a community that resists dealing with the problem and that covers up.

[Shmarya]

I would also add that any scant change that has come to the haredi world has come because of outside pressure – the NY Magazine article, blogs, etc.

You deem us – UOJ, DovBear (of all people), myself – as the "vilest enimies of Judaism." Without us, especially without UOJ, there would be no change. There would have been no NY Magazine article. Kolko would still be teaching in Torah Temimah.

I can safely speak for the three of us when I say we all will be glad to be the "vilest enemies" of the Judaism you espouse and the community you, largely, cover for.

We would all much rather go down in history as friends of the helpless, the victims, and the abused.

[Anon]

Shmarya, I would not compare you to UOJ. You both use despicable methods but UOJ certainly deserves some of the credit to the changes that are (hopefully) occurring with the haredi community. Had he done so in a less vicious manner I would be one of his greatest supporters. You on the other hand just seem to be a slanderer for slander's sake. You have not contributed anything positive. Not sure what you get out of it (actually I do have a couple of theories, none of which reflect kindly on you).

[Shmarya]

Why not ask UOJ? Maybe he can help you clarify for "knowledge."

[ed]

>We would all much rather go down in history as friends of the helpless, the victims, and the abuse.

Yotzo Sechoro B'hefsedo.

[ed]

>Without us, especially without UOJ, there would be no change. There would have been no NY Magazine article. Kolko would still be teaching in Torah Temimah.

Mitzva Habo B'aveira. Was it truly worth all that Loshon Hora, Motzi Shem Ra, Sinas Chinom, Mevazeh Talmidei Chachomim, Litzonus etc just because *maybe* there *might* be a victim?

Do you believe that UOJ's method was the ONLY possible way?

[AC]

who are you to judge ed?
the system is not working for us.
it's up to us to make a change.
THE RABBINATE DOES NOT CARE AS LONG AS THEIR LUKSHIN IS HOT, don't you get this?
They are corrupt because of their inaction, they FAILED us.
Now what?

[ed]

>who are you to judge ed?

At least as much as you.

>the system is not working for us.

For *us*? Speak for yourself, dude. The system is working fine. Of course, no system is perfect.

>it's up to us to make a change.

Right. Spew slander and malicious attacks on everyone to your right. Great job!

>THE RABBINATE DOES NOT CARE AS LONG AS THEIR LUKSHIN IS HOT, don't you get this?

No.

>They are corrupt because of their inaction, they FAILED us.

Don't blame YOUR failures on others, you shm'gegi.

>Now what?

Go fly a kite.

[ed]

AC, I asked you some questions at 2:36 and 2:39

Please respond.

[AC]

I'm not sure if you are asking;
"how many kollel guys REALLY sit and learn?"
-or-
literally "what is the percentage ratio of men who claim student on their tax return?"

[AC]

PS. I'm not talking about my failures ed.

As well, I don't have to prove anything to you ed. If you want to believe all is well then believe it.

How about this scenario;
Right now, luckily, there is a large percentage of american haredi, older men, still in the work force who enable the current system to continue as it is. What will happen when the next generation moves into that "parness" position but have nothing to give?

My wife is from Marseilles, France. My mother in law was at that speech mentioned in the news. She told us that the Rabbi focused on the concept of not relying on miracles, very heavily.
What else would we be relying on though when we the Rabbis are telling the youth that the basics of survival are evil, that the shouldn't learn a livelihood?
Please stop your rhetoric and look at what is happening. This is the last time I'm going to say this, your ears are closed.

[AC]

*when the Rabbis are....

[ed]

>I'm not sure if you are asking;
"how many kollel guys REALLY sit and learn?"

Yes.

>How about this scenario;
Right now, luckily, there is a large percentage of american haredi, older men, still in the work force who enable the current system to continue as it is. What will happen when the next generation moves into that "parness" position but have nothing to give?

Answer my other question. How many families live in Lakewood, and how many are working?

You live in lakewood? How many married men between age 25 and 40 are working?

[ed]

>What else would we be relying on though when we the Rabbis are telling the youth that the basics of survival are evil, that the shouldn't learn a livelihood?

When R Steinman said that learning a trade is poison, you really think he meant that supporting yourself is poison? Or did he mean LEARNING a trade e.g. college is poison?

[AC]

Doesn't earning a parnasah and learning how to do it properly involve education?

[AC]

What if there were kosher colleges, would then it not be encouraged to go to them to learn a trade or skill?
Now, the Rabbi in Marseille asked if it were ok TO CREATE KOSHER PROGRAMS for boys who were "between sedarim" after yeshiva. How would this classify as poison?

[Alex]

Ed sayeth "NooOOOOOOoOooOO! Science is totally wrong!!!!!!!!! And ... the world is really flat! And, telescopes that show that the universe is expanding (suggesive of a big bang) are evil liars!!!!! The telescopes are liars!"

rofl

[ed]

>Doesn't earning a parnasah and learning how to do it properly involve education?

You live in Lakewood? YOU tell me.

[ed]

>The telescopes are liars!"

The people looking through them are the liars, you dummy.

[ed]

>And, telescopes that show that the universe is expanding (suggesive of a big bang) are evil liars!!!!!

Bingo. *Suggestive*.

The slightest *possibility* of something other than God, and the world totaly falls for it.

Feh!

[Alex]

Ed sayeth "The evil astronomers, minions of the yatzer hara, have nothing better to do than make up fantastic lies about a universe so that they can do all the avaros they want! Astronomy is evil! It must be stopped!"

Well, if all matter in the universe is moving apart... then perhaps it had a point of origin!!!!!!

[Alex]

the post before this one was me

[AC]

Why does "the big bang" deny God?
What God means is The Cause Of Everything
How does a round earth, a solar system and "the big bang"(or as the arizal calls it "the tsimsum") deny God?

[AC]

~You live in Lakewood? YOU tell me.

I am not sure what you are asking.

It's true, there are people in the community who are resourceful and found success without education. Are you suggesting the rov public should be able to do the same as an elite few?

[AC]

I mean I hope everyone finds huge success, and if they can do it on creativity alone, hey why not. But I don't think the average person can earn a decent income without industry specific skills, whatever they may be.
real estate, computers, insurance, travel agents, law, medicine, sanitation, law enforcement

[Alex]

AC- The Modern Orthodox are able to see astronomy as non-contradictory to God, however ed prefers a mentality from a thousand years ago.

[Alex]

AC- The Modern Orthodox are able to see astronomy as non-contradictory to God, however ed prefers a mentality from a thousand years ago.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Shmarya,

In all honesty, you just show your perversion and blind hatred. How on earth could you claim that I cover-up for the corruption and corrupt people, while the opposite is apparent and evident.

Now let me explain exactly what I have against people like you DB and UOJ:
Let’s suppose just for a moment that all you accuse haredim of is absolutely true, without falsifications, fabrications, smears spins & taking things out of context. If all you were doing was announcing, “listen folks, I am not haredi, I don’t believe this or that, but there are such and such problems in their community and they refuse/fail to deal with them – as a community and their leaders alike”, and then deal respectfully with the issues – I’d be all for it. At least until we’d finally face our problems adequately. However, you all come here as saviours of the world on white horses, you smear, denigrate, spit on and spew hatred on any and all rabonim, on the Torah, halocha, emunah, the customs, etc., etc., etc., – everything we believe in, right or wrong. Interestingly, you make us lower than roaches and more wicked than terrorists, yet when we accuse you of the same you get all berserk. So when you say, “The Nazi analogies you make are simply beyond the pale” you’re absolutely wrong. Your claim that your honest concern are “the downtrodden and suffering” would be credible if you would have done what I suggested above. However, as someone who attacks, denigrates and smears us, your accusations should not be taken differently from those of the racist websites. The fact that what they post on their sites is true doesn’t justify them doing it. Same goes to you and DB. How seriously should we take people who exonerate Arafat, Clinton, the Pope, Teddy Kennedy, Alan Dershowitz etc., etc., etc., or quote them to put us down?

Now, as for the notion that the change comes only because UOJ and the NY rag – utter BS. Yeah right – we all stand in awe of a semi-pornographic sensational tabloid! Yes, the UOJ brought a few cases to light, but there were people operating quietly and much more effectively way before – one of them R’ Yosef Blau, as you well know. There are many bona fide haredi rabonim who take such matters very seriously – only thing they don’t scream it from the rooftops. You don’t know how many fired teachers are being fired for abuse – and generally they DO NOT get jobs in other schools. I have argued long ago that arresting this or that criminal won’t solve anything. It is the mentality of an entire community that must be changed, along with purging the corrupt “shadow government”, so to speak, that pulls the strings of the “leaders”.

In short you do not “defend the helpless, the victims, and the abused” but use them as cheap ammo against us. In other words, further abuse them by usurping their pain and suffering.

If anything, one major stumbling block is people like DB and yourself – admitted promoters and proselizsers for kfirah, homosexuality and a plethora of subjects that run directly against Yiddishkeit, making the accusations – the core true, yet you add many fabrications and spins. How do you expect this to affect an already self-segregated, introvert community, especially that they’re being attacked daily from different sources?

4. All of the blogs you decry covered Kushner, etc.
Hmmm…. I don’t remember seeing it on UOJ, though I looked a bit in the archives of that time. I searched all over DB – nothing. Your new and improved search engine yielded this. Not too impressive, is it?

[Shmarya]

1. You used an old search engine, as is clearly seen from the (broken) url in the link.

2. The rest of what you write is either very foolish or intentionally false.

3. Rabbi Blau will be the forst one to tell you the problem is not UOJ or Me or DB – the problem is rabbis who abuse and other rabbis and hangers on (like you) who cover for the abuse and/or attack victims advocates (that would be people like UOJ, DB, Me, etc.)

4. There are several rabbis who abused children in Baltimore and Brooklyn who went on to abuse elsewhere. Rabbis knew about the original abuse. The problem of "sending away the problem to another community" is a very real one. Ask Rabbi Blau – he'll be able to give you several very real examples.

5. And, for the few rabbi child rapists no longer teaching in haredi schools because their cases were "handled" by your great rabbis without going to police, realize these child abusers are still for the most part abusing. They may be abusing MO kids or non-frum kids or Sefardi kids or non-Jewish kids, but they are still abusing.

Now perhaps you'd like to go back into your little black-clad world and leave the sunshine alone.

[DK]

Yossi"Joe"Izrael,

Haredim and others seem incapable of living in the West without strong monitoring.

That is what you will get. Blogs and magazines are proving quite helpful in curbing your medieval policies and tendencies.

And instead of denying that they are helping you, you should be grateful.

[Shmarya]

For those of you who do not know, Charles Kushner – a MMo businessman – hired a prostitute to entice his brother-in-law in order to hurt him and blackmail him.

Kushner was a major donor to MO and haredi causes, including Chabad.

Here is one post I did on him, pointing out the rabbis who went to bat for him during the sentenceing portion of his trial:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2005/02/money_wipes_out.html

Kusher, vile as he is, is not a child rapist and he did not cover for child rapists. His disgusting crimes hardly rise to the level of Rabbi Kolko or Rabbi Lanner.

Using the new search engine, I get 62 hits for Lanner. Why so many for Lanner and only a few for Kushner? Both are MO. The difference between them is as follows:

1. Lanner sexually, physically and emotionally abused kids.

2. He did so while working for a Jewish org (also MO, BTW).

3. That org covered up his abuse and left him in place to abuse more kids.

4. Lanner is a rabbi and his job was "kiruv."

5. Kushner is not a rabbi, did not work for a Jewish org, no Jewish org covered for him, he did not abuse kids.

If you can't get this, Joe, than there is simply not anything more to say, except go home to the darkness you so crave.

[george]

Scotty,
What is it about you that attract the likes of Yossie Izrael? These guys are clueless as to the reality of the real world. They live in shtetls, like Monsey and Brooklyn, where the sun does not shine. Their theory of everything is the theory of everything that existed 1000 years ago, while the earth was still flat even according to the Rambam! The same guy who referred to Turks and blacks as animals.
Show them a telescope, and they call it a trick. Show them irrefutable evidence that we are part of a cosmos that is infinite and that we are not at the center of the universe, and they call you a kofer.
It's like pissing in the wind with them, the piss hits you in the face regardless of where you pee. Give it up with these guys, they still believe in their tooth-fairies, and are afraid to admit they've been duped.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Shmarya,
I’ll try once again to reason with you rationally cohesively.

Please try to read what I write, not what you read into my words.

1. Nowhere did I say that it’s justified not to call the police.

2. Nowhere did I say that criminals shouldn’t be arrested and punished.

3. On the other hand –read carefully now- the police CAN NOT always work in all cases indiscriminately. Come to think about this: rape per-se is a minority of sexual offenses. Because of the nature of such things, and the plaintiffs being minors it is very hard to prove anything. Also witness the leniency of courts viz. sex-offenders. Imagine an offender is acquitted – your school will NEVER EVER be able to get rid of him, as they’d forever face lawsuits from the offender.

4. Where did you ever see me deny or justify your points 4 & 5? (in your 1st answer) It is you who claim that haredim never call the police, which is an absolute lie. The fact that it’s not on the NYT’s front page doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Unfortunately children have used this against innocent people to get back at them.

5. What’s your point in pointing out the differences B/W Kushner and lanner? You full well know that my initial point was that that you use all material available to you –now read carefully: I do NOT deny that your accusations are true. My claim is that the SOLE reason you do this is to smear the Orthodox community, especially haredim.

6. (I saw your post on Kushner. Your new and improved search engine didn’t initially bring it up. You may ant to fix it. It brought up the feb ’05 archive, but I wasn’t able to open the individual threads. I typed “Kushner” in the search box – just FYI)

7. “The rest of what you write is either very foolish or intentionally false.” – please try to substantiate your claims.

8. I still got no answer as to my original question: what is the difference B/W racist sites putting up TRUE cases of corruption and child abuse by Orthodox Jews, and you doing the same? It seems to me that you just like a rooster taking credit for the dawn. Rav Blau, Mark Dratch, JWB, awareness center et al a)-TOOK ACTION against offenders b)-Helped or tried to help victims c)-did not usurp these cases –and the victims themselves, as you do- to smear their real or imaginary opponents. When you open a hotline or other substantial help for victims, you can claim to be a Robin Hood. Not before.

9. You again distorted what I said, in order to avoid a direct answer: I never said that you & DB etc., are THE problem. But I did say that you are a stumbling block to the solution, and I stand by those words. There’s a big difference here. The fact of the matter is that because of you guys, anyone in the community raising the issue is accused of being your accomplices. This has actually happened to yours truly.
Please try to answer rationally, calmly, without lies and falsifications. Not that I’ll hold my breath for it, but at least you’ll be rid of me ;-).

If you can't get this, Shmarya, than there is simply not anything more to say, except go home to the hatred & vendetta you so crave.

[Yaakov R.]

Hmmm…. I don’t remember seeing it on UOJ

Hey Cowboy Yossi, put down your .45 Magnum for a minute and see one of my posts on UOJ regarding Kushner:

What chutzpah for Rabbi Salomon to attack UOJ who is only trying to help the klal and protect the children from molesters. R' Salomon should be more concerned with what goes on in his own backyard. He is the supposed mashgiach of the BMG in Lakewood. As you walk in, there stands a monument to the greed and corruption that has engulfed yiddishkeit in the past decade or so. There is a wall dedicated to Charles Kushner, the same Kushner who was convicted for tax evasion, witness tampering and pimping (he even set up Mcgreevy's boy toy Cipel with a house and salary). I don't care how much money he gave. This money is dirty, like an etnan zonah. Give it back to him. The late great President Ronald Reagan once stood at the Berlin Wall and defied then Soviet leader Gorbachev with these words: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" I hereby defy R' Salomon with these same words: "Rabbi Salomon, tear down that wall! Tear down the wall of greed, arrogance and corruption that separates the Jewish people from the truth and from the leadership they truly deserve!"

9:26 PM, February 08, 2007

There were also several posts from last August and September.

[Shmarya]

"Joe" –

You comprehend poorly, to say the least. YOU said rabbis dealt with cases quietly (ala Matisyahu Salomon). I replied that many of those cases were "dealt with" in ways that allowed the abuser to continue to abuse. Baltimore's rabbis have admitted as much, and there is much evidence to show this happened there and in Brooklyn, as well.

Why am I different from a Nazi site that puts up true stories of rabbi-on-boy rape? Please. If you are so dull to need an answer to that question, I would answer it, but you're not that dull – you are simply disingenuous.

You shoot the messenger rather than deal with the message and those who caused that message.

Try reading the story about Eliyahu HaNavi and the priest of Ba'al. were ALL Jewish religious figures Ba'al worshippers? Were all Jews?

I can only shudder at what the Joe Izraels of the world would have done, well-intentioned or not, to Elyihau HaNavi and the other navi'im.

[Arnold]

I am a member of the Jewish Community and until very recently a very proud one. My father is a graduate of the Mirrer Yeshiva and Columbia University. (bet that doesn't happen too much anymore) He has smicha (Rabbinical Ordination) from the Mirrer and has finished Shas (Talmud) 4 times. He is not Chassidish but would qualify, as would most of my extended family as Charedi. I have loads of relatives living in Lakewood (double digits) and "learning" in Kollel there. For the life of me I don't get it. What I do know is that my dad, the Columbia graduate, who spent zero days in Kollel, can learn my lakewood relatives under the table. I don't get it.

I don't get why we are allowing our greatest assets-our future-to go door to door asking for hand-outs. Rabbi Berel Wein points out that at it's height in Europe, there were less than 150 men in ALL OF EUROPE learning in Kollel. The back corner in Lakewood has FIVE HUNDRED. Think about that for a second. 150...why? Because KOLLEL WAS NOT MEANT TO BE A PARKING LOT FOR EMOTIONALLY IMMATURE KIDS WITH NO DIRECTION. It was meant to form, train, sustain, and protect the future leaders of their communities. Men who will be learned Rabbis and teachers so the communities that supported them will gain from that support as those men came back to lead and teach there. That WAS what Kollels (im) where set up for and nothing else. Ravina of the Talmud was a wealthy man who worked all day-no one today could withstand his Torah questioning. Rav Shmuel had a job, as did Rav Ashi, Rava, Abeye, Rashi, The Rambam, I do not believe I need to go on... This is a horrid joke. This is a crisis of epic proportions and the defenders and enablers of this practice will have a lot to answer for at 120.

Understand this please and read carefully...THE STUDY OF TORAH, not Torah, THE STUDY OF TORAH has become the Avodah Zarah of our generation. We must do something as a people to stop the destruction of our communities. We need to stop demanding that our daughters be mother, partner, caretaker, emotional supporter, and bread winner of a young family all before she reaches 25. We need to demand that our children be given an honest account of what life will be like on their own, without the support of their parents-will the Roshei Hayeshivas support our children if G-d forbid something happens to us or will our children have to learn the hard way that life is not easy on your own with no source of viable income. If that means we need to call out our leadership and hold them accountable for their failures, WE MUST DO SO-as uncomfortable as that may sound.

Lakewood will never return Charles Kushner's money. I would warn them to study in a few places in Shas, where the honor of the Kohein Gadol was bought and sold...I used to wonder how the Jewish people could let such corruption flourish at the time of the Bais Hamikdash, but unfortunately I have witnessed exactly how it was done.
We have allowed our leadership to work unfettered as we did at the time of the BH...we have allowed them to issue edicts whether right or wrong-and swallowed them full just because they are from supposed "das Torah" and therefore if it sounds frummer it must be frummer-just as we did at the time of the BH...we have allowed them to bring idols into holy places ie illicit money from evil doers with no remorse-just as we did at the time of the BH....we have allowed them to elect their own cronies and blood lines to sustain and fortify their own unholy behavior-just as we did at the time of the BH...we have allowed them to cover up their illegal deeds and those of their friends-just as we did at the time of the BH...we have allowed their defenders to out shout, dismiss, intimidate, and marginalize those with the courage to point out that the emperor has no clothes-just like we did at the time of the BH...I no longer wonder how well meaning G-d fearing Jews allowed corruption to take hold of their people without doing anything to stop it, because I witness it every day and now I know what Disraeli meant when he said, those who fail to learn from history and destined to repeat it.

We need to hold our leaders accountable as it says in Chaggiga regarding Acher-the sins of the "righteous" are held in far greater contempt then the sins of the regular man for they know better and still sin against G-d...We need to clean up our house post haste for if we just sit back and let the foxes rule the hen house, our fate and the fate of the Jewish people will be far more fatalistic than that of our forefathers...G-d have mercy on our souls...and by then the excuse of " but my rav said..." will be of no significance...

[Naftush]

Not long *after* the visit of these rabbonim, their counterparts in Marseilles unveiled a hizuch program, a mechina of sorts, for young people who were about to begin university. They also said that their initiative had the blessings of the gedolim. Therefore, I suspect Haaretz' coverage of selectivity or, at least, superficiality.