Rabbi Steinman: "A Trade is Poison," Women must get only "the minimum of the minimum" education, Coopertion with Modern Orthodox rabbis "uprooting the religion"

The Gerrer Rebbe and Rabbi Aryeh Leib Steinman went to Western Europe on a "spiritual" mission. They spoke to audiences in England, France and Belgium. Here is the core of Rabbi Steinman's message, as reported by Ha'aretz:

…Rabbi Steinman is 93 years old and is revered throughout the ultra-Orthodox world, even by those who do not belong to his designated audience. His trips abroad are a sharp divergence from the usual habits of other rabbinical leaders from his world, which is generally quite introverted. Both he and the Gerrer rebbe have been recruited into activities that were until now the sole domain of Chabad, even if this didn't include the distribution among women of candles for the Sabbath, or invitations to the men to lay tefillin. Steinman, the dominant one of the two as a speaker, headed off to Europe with a luggage filled with a strictly ultra-Orthodox message - which he had packed all by himself.

Rabbis Elyashiv (left) and Steinman (right).

What is the importance of this? As recently as a few years ago, the elderly leader of the Lithuanian yeshiva world represented the pure hope of moderate religious and secular people who regarded him as an ultra-Orthodox reformer who was afraid of nothing; a moderate ultra-Orthodox leader who was prepared to be flexible in a way that no other ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi leader had been flexible for the past 60 years. This week, in Marseille, Lyon and Paris, he presented an unswerving and uncompromising ultra-Orthodox line. In Marseille, for example, he was asked by local rabbis how to treat young men who had left the yeshivas and "cannot find themselves either here or there." Rabbi Ohana asked him: "Would it be possible to set up a yeshiva for them where they would also learn a trade?"

"You are saying that since he is already not good, then we should send him to learn a trade?" Steinman replied. "That is merely adding poison to poison. A trade is poison."

About the education of children, he said that it was absolutely forbidden to teach them secular subjects, declaring: "Everything must be merely Torah." In his previous trips to America and France, he also said that education for women must be kept to "the minimum of the minimum." About the prospect of cooperating with modern-Orthodox rabbis, he said that it was tantamount to "uprooting the religion." …

Earlier, I called Rabbi Steinman an idiot savant. Some of you asked me to take it back. I now agree. I do take it back. The man is certainly an idiot. A savant in any form? That I'm not sure of.

[Hat Tip: Ben Qor'ha.]

Comments

[Zach Kessin]

To bad he didn't declair it usser to ask Modern orthodox folks for money.

[Alex]

This is a clear cut case of abuse of women.

The reason why the ultraorthodx are afraid of women getting educated is because if the women have the dinero to support themselves ... they wont take this shit from lazy bums that just want to study and
not work.

[Alex]

Its also a case of abuse of children. Schools without secular studies supervised by the state should be illegal.

[Alex]

Its also a case of abuse of children. Schools without secular studies supervised by the state should be illegal.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Yah, yah, yah. Rav Schteinmann also caused the holocaust, no?

He is the founder of the Nachal Haredi, several haredi trade-schools, but a trade is poison. Yeah, the old man suddenly became an Alice Cooper fan.

Of course, the mere suggestion that a known anti-religious paper would distort, spin, doctor or otherwise take out of context or omit things is a conspiracy theory by vast right wing conspirators.

[gross]

Who listens to this crazy old puppet? What does he have in common with the average guy? Take the word "gedolim" and throw it in the garbage - it's meaningless.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Alex: In the United States, it is illegal to deny children a secular education (at least until age 16). The Amish give their kids a minumum of education, and then teach their kids a trade- so they remain religiously faithful but economically self-sufficient. Steinman's American followers will have to keep their kids in school (for secular subjects) at least unit 9th-10th grade. But they will then be unemployable and eligible for welfare and tzedekah. As a fiscal conservative, I don't believe in supporting indolent welfare slobs, no matter what their religion. Even King David worked as a shepherd.

[Anon]

Here we have a situation where Jews of France, chareidi, modern orthodox, ashkenazi, sefardi and even secular, came together in a tremendous show of achdus yet Shmarya manages to find a way to insult. I have relatives in France that are not religious (they go to shul on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur). They told me that they were incredibly moved by the event. Yet Shmarya from his armchair in the U.S. thinks he has all the answers. Shmarya, are you even observant? I think it is only fair that those reading your blog know what type of person is making all these statements.

BTW, one of my relatives is quite friendly with Rabbi Ohana. He queried Rabbi Ohana about this statement and Rabbi Ohana told him that R' Steinman point was not intended to be a general anti-trade statement, just that for children who are at risk (from a religious perspective), trying to teach them a trade and place them in the working world would only serve to push them further away from judaism.

[Anon]

--Of course, the mere suggestion that a known anti-religious paper would distort, spin, doctor or otherwise take out of context or omit things is a conspiracy theory by vast right wing conspirators.--

Joe, as I noted earlier, Shmarya's readers know by know that the only truth is what Shmarya thinks up while sitting in his armchair. Please don't suggest otherwise as Shmarya doesn't like criticism. Its not good for his ego.

[AC]

actually,
you cant deny this statement was made. as I mentioned elsewhere on this blog, the statement 'it's better to beg for charity then to have your parnasah through the internet' was made by a 'gadol' recently.
this is very frightning and if this continues i dont think i will consider myself one with these factions
i live in lakewood right now and we are currently making plans TO MOVE AWAY as soon as our lease is up
its pretty sad that this is what torah has come to mean to these people
what should be a religion of truth and love has been turned into a religion of hate and nonsense
we are currently looking for a place where our family can live a life of truth and ahavat yisrael
hopefully these gedolim will end these trips because they are infecting more and more towns with this faulty ideology and there wont be anywhere to left to move to escape!
I want my children to be educated and to be able to support themselves, how can one trust these gedolim and their emunah(?) WHEN THEY CANNOT MANAGE THE PEOPLE CURRENTLY UNDER THEIR RULE, HOW CAN THEY TRY TO RECRUIT MORE!
How many more CHARITY REQUESTS will we be seeing in the future? Where is the money going to come from when the working public is ostracized?

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

Honest and decent driticism is not only long overdue, but also necessary for our survival as a society.
I have nothing against learning in Kollel, I was in Kollel myself until 4 years ago. Now I make a relatively acceptable salary (less than 100K, but I can live W/O debt, gmach et al, without even a HS diploma. And I never touched any gov't handouts. Just shows you that the States truly are a goldene medine, yet the leftists/commies of the world can't have enough bashing it.) What I can't stand is the institutionalized (or almost - at least openly tolerated) brazen welfare abuse and dependance thereof. The mishna says "pas bemelach umayim bimsurah" - if you're not willing to commit to a life of poverty for the sake of Torah, if you want to give up your honesty and integrity for it, I believe it's better to get up and go to work - with all the pitfalls of the secular workplace. Yes, there is enough corruption and theft there too, in addition to promiscuity and other negative influences.
I believe that the hard-line stance of the rabonim is in part fuelled by the haredi-hater DogSmears and FailedContraceptions.

In certain instances the choice is between presrving the original society as it is at the peril of losing some, vs. watering it down and keeping higher numbers. Those whou can't/don't want to be fully haredi have many other options.

[formelly frum]

how could anybody think this person Rabbi Steinman is a godol, he seems very unlearned and never studied or looked at the Talmud.

The Talmud states, a father who does not teach their son a trade, teaches his son to steal.

Wow, looks like the rabbis from the Talmud where pretty smart

[anon]

Almost all these fervently religious steal. One day the US government might start to look at the duplicitous dealings of our Haredim and watch out for all of us to be targets of anti-semitism. These bums say it is okay to steal from goyim. One great one these bums do is to inflate their enrollment and get funding for phantom students. Not all are bums but I can give a list of all the institutions who will only buy when they get the billing done as they require it. It was not different in Europe as they had the excuse that it was the only way to make parnasah. Different scams but still stealing from the goyim.

Vishnitz US is one of the most corrupt institutions. They play all sorts of games with their federal funding.

Does anyone know the position of Rav S or Reb on phony Pell Grant filings?

[Anon]

--Honest and decent driticism is not only long overdue, but also necessary for our survival as a society.--

Honest and decent criticism are unfortunately sorely lacking. Shmarya seems to be trying to fill some of the void on the missing criticism but seems to have forgotten about the honest and decent.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

"Honest and decent criticism are unfortunately sorely lacking. Shmarya seems to be trying to fill some of the void on the missing criticism but seems to have forgotten about the honest and decent." 100% correct. Exactly my point.

"Almost all these fervently religious steal. One day the US government might start to look at the duplicitous dealings of our Haredim " Dream on, baby, dream on. Don't hold your breath for trhat. What all the haredim combined together steal from the government is not even a tiny fraction of what the taxpayer has to pay for Mexians, Negroes, white trash and other corrupt rabble. The funding will never end as votes are being cast in return. And don't expect it to appear on Butt-Bear and Dov-Head. Or failed contraception, for instance.

Unfortunately, in order to subdue our enemies within and without, and to eradicate the deeply ingrained culture of corruption and parasitism, we'd have to team up with an old anti-Semite friend, Mr. Patrick J. Buchanan and other hard-liners, such as Peter Brimelow, Jared Taylor, Tom Tancredo, Alan Keyes, Michael Savage, Michael Fumento, Steve King et al. Not happening. Not until it;s too late.

[AC]

Funny how "right-wing" and haredi-defenders drop in and out of this blog...
Yossi Izrael won't be here long... once he realizes he's not defending God, but rather a faulty ideology which calls itself "the only way"
If you were defending God, and being truly honest with yourself, you would see that these people are threatening the future of the Jewish religion.

[Abe]

It was predictable that idiots like rabbi Steinman would denounce education for men under his nefarious spell. He is equally as contemptuous of schooling for men. Ignorance breeds ignorance and Steinman is an exemplar of this pervesity that infects haredim.
But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

[Abe]

It was predictable that idiots like rabbi Steinman would denounce education for women under his nefarious spell. He is equally as contemptuous of schooling for men. Ignorance breeds ignorance and Steinman is an exemplar of this pervesity that infects haredim.
But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

[B.BarNavi]

"Here we have a situation where Jews of France, chareidi, modern orthodox, ashkenazi, sefardi and even secular, came together in a tremendous show of achdus yet Shmarya manages to find a way to insult."

Translation from Haredi-apologist-ese: Achdus only matters under the ideology (and authority) of Haredim. When non-Orthodox (or even Modern Orthodox) Jews cross denominational lines for the sake of unity? Feh.

[Anon]

--Translation from Haredi-apologist-ese: Achdus only matters under the ideology (and authority) of Haredim. When non-Orthodox (or even Modern Orthodox) Jews cross denominational lines for the sake of unity? Feh.--

Since you are addressing my comment I will respond. In my case neither I nor my relatives in France, based on whose observations I made my comment, can be termed haredim by any stretch of the imagination. My relatives are completely non-observant. Assuming you are even moderately orthodox, I can assure you I am less haredi than you are. I periodically attend services in certain traditional conservative synagogues which probably ranks up there with idolatry for most haredim. I don’t for a moment delude myself into thinking that my views are even remotely similar to those of R’ Steinman. But when I see the venom spewed by Shmarya and others on this blog, I begin to understand why some haredim refer to us as self-hating jews.

[Alex]

Anon-> Mr. Genius, I don't think anyone in here hates OURSELVES, uhhhhhhhh we're Jewish, no?

These bums that don't work are THEEE ultimate threat to the jewish religion. When they realize that they don't got the $$$ to have fun or even to survive in the real world ... are they going to blame themselves for thinking that going college is evil? NO! They're gonna blame GOD!!!!!!!

If anything Shmarya is exposing the suicide mission that the ultra orthodox are takinging Judaism on.

[Dave]

My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

[Dave]

My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

[ed]

>But where are the modern orthodox critique of the dumbing down of hareidsm? Although they are uncomfortable with haredi despisement of science and education, why havn't they raised their collective voices denouncing Steinman and his mad doctrines ?

Good Morning. The aren't any out there with enough respect to denounce Gedolim of R Steinman's stature .

Rabbi Steiman spent his lifetime immersed in Torah. There's no one in your MO world who comes close.

[ed]

>My solution to the problems of Judaism, is that we should accept the truth from whichever direction it comes- haredi, modern Orthodox, reform, conservative, Karaite, Samaritan, anywhere. As long as their view is reasonably consistent with Torah, we should consider it.

The only ones who are consistent with the Torah are the Haredim and MO.

Haredim have many Gedolim. How many do the MO have? Who are they? Why aren't they adopting positions of leadership?

[ed]

>The reason why the ultraorthodx are afraid of women getting educated is because if the women have the dinero to support themselves ... they wont take this shit from lazy bums that just want to study and
not work.

Pure BS. Our women are proud to support their husbands who are sitting and learning.

[AC]

~Pure BS. Our women are proud to support their husbands who are sitting and learning.

That's what she tells you... but in her heart, she hates you for it.
While you sit on your butt talking trash(gossip, hock, sports) playing with your cell phones and smoking cigarettes, shes out in the trenches struggling to bring home $50k+ a year to pay for your Shabbes hat and shoes(it's halacha, you have to have them).
While you are strolling home from first seder for your 2-3 hour lunch break thinking your a gadol for your misirat nefesh, she's eating crackers and tuna fish at her desk so she can get more hours in.
Then you buy her flowers in appreciation on erev Shabbes, with her money(or her fathers money)... Yea, she's real proud,
I think she's brainwashed.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Welcome to Bizarro World. In Bizarro Judaism, education is poison, stealing is a mitzvah, modern (religious) people are not scholars, a dead man is the Messiah, work is for women (as is child-rearing), slavery is freedom, ignorance is bliss, yichus trumps individual achievement, welfare is an entitlement (after all, everyone does it, so that justifies our doing it), outward appearence (suits, hats) is more important than sincerity, and God is full of hatred. Defend it if you will, or better yet, blame me (after all, I am an ignorant apikorus), but it has nothing to offer the vast majority of Jews, who remain unaffiliated. Who can blame them?

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

AC: "Yossi Izrael won't be here long..." True. What makes you think I have a tenure here?

"once he realizes he's not defending God," what in my words says, hints or insinuates that?

"...you would see that these people are threatening the future of the Jewish religion."
Yes, in a way.
But if your IQ were higher than 37, you'd be able to figure out that I am critical of most orthodox leadership and people (haredi, MO and anyting in between).
(And yes, as far as Judaism is concerned, orthodoxy -in a wider sense- is the only way. Reform, conservative, reconstitutionist etc., are no different that samaritans, karaites, christians and rastafarians. Actually one of your fellow communazis pointed this out in one of these comments.)

The fact that our society has many problem does is not license for outsiders - most bona fide Jew-haters, often motivated by ulterior motives - to spew htred, lies and incendiary speech against us. Yes, we have nuts like "ed", yet so far none of them sunk the altalena or refused to rescue innocent men women and children from the holocaust beacuse they were frum, they did not betray their (our) soldiers - sending them under enemy fire without equipment and hands tied, they didn't go to corrupt criminal FDR to get him reject the St. Louis, they did not refuse medical treatent to non-religious pepole, they didn't send the police to beat women and infants to death and to drag people out of their homes - and the list goes on and on and on. But of course, for the average anti-haredi brownshirt all this doesn't count. He ignores the tenured reform, conservative, MO professors and politicians fressing a 1000 times more public funds than all haredim combined together. When's the last time you heard any of these haredi-bashing saints who hold the law in such dear awe speak out against illegal immigration and employing illegal immigrants? Have you even given a mere thoght to the fact that until 25-30 years ago you could have made a decent living stacking shelves in a supermarket, so one could do both work and learn?

You guys ignore the extremist far-left tfillin-burning kibbutzim that draim israel's blood dry. Only the haredim are the cause of all the of the world's problems. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right, but you have to criticise yourself FIRST and then others as I do on my blog).
Read my previous comments, and if that won't do go to my blog. See especially my earlier posts.

As I said, the posers who claim to be fair critics just cause most of us to tighten up more. I don't walk into your living room telling you to pick up the toys and the trash, so you don't walk into mine.

You have a lot to fix before you spew hatred on others. And ditto for Shmarya. Even if he often has a point, he'd better present it in a non-Sturmer way, please.

[ed]

>but it has nothing to offer the vast majority of Jews, who remain unaffiliated. Who can blame them?

I can. Stop swallowing all the gossip and slander that gets spewed here, and get some real info instead.

Instead of visiting this FailedRetard, consider instead a visit to R Steinmans home.

I guarentee you that you will leave in awe and respect.

[formally frum]

ed,

Just saying he is a learned man immersed in Torah is not enough, defend his statement.

And Ed I was in yeshiva and most Kollel guys and full of it living of their wifes lucky if they learn 3 hours a day.

We should market a internet video cam
attached to the kollel man. The wife who is working and proud to support her Kollel husband then can check on him to see if she is getting her monies worth.

My guess would be there will be many shocked
wifes and maybe even a revolt by woman who have been conned for so long.

[ed]

>Just saying he is a learned man immersed in Torah is not enough, defend his statement.

OK. I'll give it a shot soon.

>And Ed I was in yeshiva and most Kollel guys and full of it living of their wifes lucky if they learn 3 hours a day.

I don't know which Yeshiva you attended, but from my experience in Lakewood, I can say that the majority were sincere in their learning.

>We should market a internet video cam attached to the kollel man. The wife who is working and proud to support her Kollel husband then can check on him to see if she is getting her monies worth.

Let's also do that with all the bloggers who blog on their bosses time.

>My guess would be there will be many shocked wifes and maybe even a revolt by woman who have been conned for so long.

Let's also attach some cameras to the MO men and show their wives where they truly go on "Mishmar night".

Please, this slander campaign is silly and stupid. No one is perfect and no system can be perfect. Everyone has virtues and failures. What's the point of only highlighting the slander and gossip?

[formely frum]

you make some points however the Talmud says
a father must teach his son a trade. Kollel is a new and recent. Many of the Talmudic scholars worked and did not sit and learn all dfay.

In addition, we the secular do not claim we are holy and problem we wash away because we are secular.Heridei claim, if only all would be religious socialites problem would end.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ed and Yossi make some salient points. Undoubtedly, there are many hard-working and sincere chareidim. Also, I am not against some kollel learning- it just shouldn't be a requirement for everybody. Theoretical knowledge, such as astrophysics and talmudic scholarship, benefit society in ways that we can't always see immediately. But it should be an experience for the most talented scholars, who show potential to be gedolim. It is not economically viable as universal model- and can lead to abuses.

As for abuses in the wider society- true enough. I am for the most part politically conservative. I am fully aware of the sins of liberalism in America, or of Labour-Zionism in Israel. But someone else's bad behavior does not justify other bad behavior. Torah Judaism should be above that.

As for this blog, I personally don't think it's a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer, as some of you guys do. Where abuses exist, we need to expose them. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. The old boy network cannot be trusted. That's where FailedM. come in. (Granted, the rhetoric is excessive at times- so cry me a river).

What I cannot abide is a form of Judaism- call it Chareidi, MO, Reform, whatever, that dengrates all forms of secular education, calls a trade "poison," and turns women into work horses so that men can go off and be holy. Many of our sages worked for a living.

[Dave]

I think that it is unfortunate that people seem to equate reform, conservative, Karaites and Samaritans with Christianity.
Reform, conservative, Karaites and Samaritans are all Torah-based faiths, and as such are part of the Jewish/ Israelite faith.
Whether you or I agree with them is beside the point. They still cannot be equated with Christianity, which is a totally different religion.

[Dave]

Yochanan, I agree with you.
It is well known that during the Talmudic period, the vast majority of the scholars has full-time proper remunerative jobs.
In fact even various haredi writers (including I believe Steinsaltz?) admit that the full time sessions of the Babylonian academy with most of the scholars in attendance (as opposed to ongoing sesssions) were only held a few times per year, during the holiday periods.

[formely frum]

My grandfather was a dayen (spelled wrong) in the old country and well respected. A Munchach/satmer chussid and was very much opposed to Kollel. He said if someone wants to learn he can do that before and after work. Learning Talmud should be treated as a 9-5 job.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

YL - missed point.

"But it should be an experience for the most talented scholars, who show potential to be gedolim." How many Kollel people are there? WHat percentage of all observant Jews are they?

"someone else's bad behavior does not justify other bad behavior. Torah Judaism should be above that" Exactly my view. Re-read comment. My objection was that outsiders who themselves aren't better shouldn't do this. True, because it's not done internally we deserve the DogSmears and FailedContraceptions of the world. That however does not justify them.

"As for this blog, I personally don't think it's a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer," No? The guy who whitewashes the crimes of the Church during the Shoah, but jumps at every Rav's throat at every opportunity is not "a cross between Page Six of the NY Post and Der Sturmer"???? Since when?

"that dengrates all forms of secular education, calls a trade "poison,"" Don't drink the cool aid before you bring it to the lab. Was the comment actually made? In what context? What did he mean? I'll quote from my first comment here: Rav Schteinmann is the founder of the Nachal Charedi and several trde schools for haredi people (men and women - separately). Maybe this is specifically what enrages so many people? That there are 'kosher' ways to make a living too? That you can learn secular subject without T&A's and pro-sexual deviance rhetoric and fagget brainwash?

"and turns women into work horses" //SIGH// Some people are definitely insatiable. The Larry Flint Democrats (NSDAP) aka. the feminist movement screams from one side of their anuses that women must be freed and get to be truck drivers, heavy-industry workers and "exotic dancers" etc., that this is a woman's dignity, yet from the other side they scream men turn women into whores and work horses. Come on.

"Many of our sages worked for a living." True. Many worked for a bare minimum to survive and dedicater 99.9% of their time to sereve G-d. The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc. Same is true about Teaneck, they just have different venues to work the system.

As I said before "kshoit atsmecha ukshoit acheirim".

[Neo-Conservaguy]

"Rabbi Steiman spent his lifetime immersed in Torah. There's no one in your MO world who comes close."

That's uncomfortably close to avodah zara, as if often the case for those who need to declare "My father can beat up your father, so there!"

Torah is not in Heaven - it only exists now in the world. Those who hide from the world (seeking Heaven) in Yeshevoth and Kollels, therefore, cannot be immersed in Torah. Rabbi Steinman may the the nicest haredi rabbi in the world, but his lack of constant real-world interaction disqualifies him in my mind from being the best-of-the-best as you believe. Our sages of the past were working men, and understood Torah from that perspective; they were the real deal. I would look to those who emulate that experience of combining learning with work as having the best shot at offering Torah knowledge I can respect and follow.

[AC]

"Many of our sages worked for a living." True. Many worked for a bare minimum to survive and dedicater 99.9% of their time to sereve G-d. The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc.

yossi and ed,
I am IN LAKEWOOD right now, so I think you guys dont really have a clear picture of everyone commenting on this board.
On the other hand, I guess you guys see the problems just as clearly as the rest of us, you're just too SCARED to speak up. You feel that by defending the bums you are DEFENDING GOD. You feel that by defending a faulty system God will somehow favor you...
This is not the way it works, that is what is called a chasid shoteh, chasid am ha-aretz. Someone who thinks they are being pious, but instead causing damage and defending falsehood.
Why don't the "gedolim" realize that they too are doing the same thing??

and btw, its not a Jaguar, its a leased Honda or Toyota Camry that's in right now
and buying "european" clothing for the kids

[Anon]

"The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc."

Excuse me, but I happen to have good information that most shnooks from kollel are satisfied with 2900SF and that most shnooks from kollel are also too savvy to buy a Jaguar which has a pretty lousy reliability rating.

[Yossi"Joe"Izrael]

AC, you're clearly not only stupid but very, very sick too. You repeat your own foolish words like a parrot. Go back and read all my comments here, and then tell me with a straight face that I'm scared to speak up. Go to my blog as well. The difference between wussie lying frauds like Orthodox Un-Jew, ADovHitBear and FailedContraception and me, is that I am part and parcel of Chareidi society and don't hide behind anonymouses, I don't make up false stories, don't slander and don't put people down just for what "party" they belong to, as the aforementioned do. If there is a problem, it has to be dealt with, and if not, it has to be publicised in order to fix it. Spewing haterd doesn't solve anything, especially from people who are 100 times worse. Now pull your sorry head out of where it is and read all I said again, and then shoot your brave mouth.

[Shmarya]

"Joe" –

1. I am not anonymous.

2. I source all my posts.

3. I was haredi when I started blogging.

You can denigrate and call me or UOJ or DB names as much as you want. However, none of that changes 40 years of haredi coverups of rabbi-on-boy rape and sexual abuse, coverups involving many of your so-called gedolim.

You don't like it? Tough luck.

[AC]

Joe Israel,
The system doesn't want to hear this, that's why it's discussed on this blog.
It's funny that you think everyone is wrong and you are right. I have seen your website and it seems to me you are only looking at the problems from the place you choose to look from. It seems to me you are candy coating your opinions by denigrating other blogs and opinions. Just like you have a right to say "sinat chinam" is the cause of problems(which is true), others have a right to say the gedolim are the problem(which is true).
Why should I or anyone else here care about your blog and opinion, when you don't care about other opinions save yours... maybe your're just here to advertise your blog?
In all honesty, you seem to be trying to cover up for the haredim and gedolim because you think "it's the right thing to do", not because you believe in the system.
Am I repeating myself?

[ed]

>The problem is that today every shnook from kollel wants a Jaguar, a 3000SF mansion, maids, new suits and hats 4 times a year for him and the kids etc.

Well said. Its the **shnooks** who don't belong in kollel to begin with who want these things. The majority of kollelniks don't have such Hasogos.

[ed]

>yossi and ed,
I am IN LAKEWOOD right now, so I think you guys dont really have a clear picture of everyone commenting on this board.

Great. Tell me how many kollel guys sit and learn full sedarim.

[Alex]

Its about time the ultraorthodx get called for the heresey that they are. Judaism does not espouse ignorance. Judaism hates the lack of knowledge, something that the ultraorthodox does espouse.

[ed]

AC, you wrote:

"I want my children to be educated and to be able to support themselves"

Tell me, how many families live in Lakewood, and how many are in Kollel? How many working?

[ed]

>Its about time the ultraorthodx get called for the heresey that they are. Judaism does not espouse ignorance.

Ignorance of Torah, that is. How you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?

>Judaism hates the lack of knowledge, something that the ultraorthodox does espouse.

Since when does "knowledge" equal "art", "english literature" and incorrect science?

[ed]

>How you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?

Should've read:

Have you finished Talmud and Shulchan Aruch yet?