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May 15, 2007

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Funny about the chicken. I heard my from father who was from the village of Gorlitz Poland about what kind of Rav they had there. The same story almost but in this case the chicken belonging to a very poor man was found upon shecting that a nail it had swallowed somewhere had caused a tear in its stomach. Of course there was the usual hesitation, was it allowed or not. Well this Rebbe look the chickens innards and pulled the nail out of the stomach,said Kasher, and bon appetit. I think he told me this in response to my question as too what was the character of his local Rabbi. Apparently from this story and others he told me, this Rav was a Gomel Chesed and would have had a good laugh at the pious frauds we suffer from today.

Everyone from Poland knows this story (which makes one wonder if it really happened). The point of the story is exactly what you said in your post. Someone fluent in Yoreh Deah would look at the chicken and know: Technically, x says the chicken is treif. But y says that in a time of great need, it's fine. This man/woman is poor. He/she is always in great need. Why invoke x and make the Torah an instrument of suffering when invoking y means she's followed an equally valid posek and having chicken for Shabbos? Mesirus nefesh is fine for a person to take on themselves, not to inflict on others.
When I was studying for my semichah, I was shocked going through Yorah Deah and seeing the depth of each halacha, how many options there were and how often things I had been assured were forbidden without question weren't under the right circumstances, how many l'hatchilahs and b'deveds there were and how many ways you could define b'deveds, even l'hatchilah!
You're right. Living in an Ivory Tower means you forget how to use halachah to navigate the real world.

I don't think the chardei world at large has any clue about Halacha and how it is processed and formed...it's not that the Rabbi's knew the information-they relied on experts in the field-jew or non-jew ie:OBGYN to explain all the relevant issues and then developed Halacha taking all kinds of factors into account. Worst of all, charediem have no clue that the foundation of a certain halacha may have come from information garnered from a goy-chas v'shalom....

This is possibly your best post ever. Yasher koach.

This is possibly your best post ever. Yasher koach.

Definitely.

Thank you both!

Excellent post.

This should be required reading for every Orthodox - every Jewish - adult. The clarity of the reasoning is striking; you've summarized years of our debates and outrage in the comments into a cogent, accessible article. Welcome home, Beit Hillel - we've been waiting for you to return.

>If you're still Orthodox, go learn Yorah Dayah with all its commentaries, with hundreds of years of poskim. Learn to see the flow of halakha, to see the humrot for what they are and the leniencies for what they are.

>Open your eyes and learn how to see.

>It is the only chance Orthodoxy has to survive.

The only chance Orthodoxy has for surviving is for all its members to become independent moreh horaah?

I think that's actually sort of the opposite of what it needs to survive.

No S(herlock), noone is saying we each have to become independent morei horaah, but we each could stand a little study in how our own halachic system works. When we each learn a lot more, we can then better debate and engage our rabbis who may not be so well-versed as we will have become. Then maybe their decisions will be more thoughtful, since we'll have pointed out sources they may not know. Or maybe it won't make any difference, since it's "us" against "them" and their "us" is not moving. But at least we'll know where they're lacking.

>When we each learn a lot more, we can then better debate and engage our rabbis who may not be so well-versed as we will have become. Then maybe their decisions will be more thoughtful

Why are you waiting for a pesak from a rabbi who knows less than you do? If you know, you don't need to ask for a pesak.

Great post.
We are not obligated to ask for piskay halacha. we may ask for ayzot tovot." good advice". We are not obligated to follow aytzot tovot.

During a different time in history Rabbis when asked a sheila would teach what the various legitimate tshuvot were and then let the individul choose.

Today the rare Rabbi would give you an option of different ways to handle a situation. We should be making the Rabbis work. Ask specifically for the different valid halachihc options. If 4 Rabbis hold one way and 5 the other you really cant say that the 4 are a daat yachid.

Today we let the Rabbis determine our lives. Oft the decision is not based purely on halacha and certainly not based on our needs but many external issues i.e. what woulld other Rabbis say if they found out.....

My Rav is a Talmid chacham , on two occasions he has told me not publicize the psak he gave because in the past someone did and he caught hell from all sorts of places. ( Hell was my word , not his.)

Shmarya, being one of your critics and one of the folks that tries (hopefully succesfully) to get under your skin from time to time, I'll deviate from my custom and acknowlege that it was a good post. I think the issues addressed have been oversimplified a bit but otherwise it was critical but not inappropriately insulting.

I am curious though as to whether you are still orthodox. No need to answer if you don't care to share that information.

Brethren:

I would like to offer you a Halacha that cannot be re-intrepreted. It is simply this: Yeshua, our Lord Jesus Christ said "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN" if you are enter the kingdom of Hashem. Today this same Jesus throws down this challenge to you and demands that you be born again, that you believe on Him as Adoni HaMashiach, and that you confess your Avaros before Him.

Today Rav Jerry Falwell was nifter. He had only one desire throughout his life, that all would receive Yeshua as their personal savior and go to heaven. Right now Brother Jerry is in Shomayim in the very presence of the Lord he served while on earth. What could be better on this Jerusalem Day than to receive the one who while we were yet sinners died for us all in old Jerusalem town?

My best wishes to all-Rabbi Neal!

That is not a halakha, Neal, that is a fantasy.

I suggest you go elsewhere.

"Rabbi" Kneel: WE are not blogging against one false messiah simply to follow another. Your Jewish shtick doesn't impress me- or fool anyone on this blog. Making a pork chulent doesn't make chazar trief a kosher dish.

"Rabbi" Kneel: WE are not blogging against one false messiah simply to follow another. Your Jewish shtick doesn't impress me- or fool anyone on this blog. Making a pork chulent doesn't make chazar trief a kosher dish.

Good riddance to Jerry "The Antichrist is Jew" Falwell...

Right now Brother Jerry is in Shomayim in the very presence of the Lord he served while on earth.

Let's file that under unlikely. He was a vile human who justified segregation and opposed interracial marriage.

How did you let that weirdo get you off topic?

In terms of halachic questions, I would suggest that it's up to the one asking to do some homework before approaching the Rav. Consider: You go to the doctor with chest pain and he diagnoses hypertension (high blood pressure). There are two ways the encounter can go. The educated health care consumer can enter a discussion about udifferent ways to reduce blood pressure like diet, exercise and medication, as well as the different classes of medication that might be right for him. Or, he could just say "Okay doc, just give me a pill."
Same thing here. You could go to the Rav and ask if the pot is treif or you could go in and say "Listen, I did boil cream and onions cut with a milchig in the fleishig pot but I hadn't used it in 24 hours and this is a really expensive pot my grandmother left me and I've got guests coming in 2 hours. What do I do?" A good Rav will discuss the concepts of ben-yomo, d'var charif and shaas had'chak before coming to a conclusion. A simple one will just say "Oh, you cooked milk in a meat pot. It's trief."

How did you let that weirdo get you off topic?

In terms of halachic questions, I would suggest that it's up to the one asking to do some homework before approaching the Rav. Consider: You go to the doctor with chest pain and he diagnoses hypertension (high blood pressure). There are two ways the encounter can go. The educated health care consumer can enter a discussion about udifferent ways to reduce blood pressure like diet, exercise and medication, as well as the different classes of medication that might be right for him. Or, he could just say "Okay doc, just give me a pill."
Same thing here. You could go to the Rav and ask if the pot is treif or you could go in and say "Listen, I did boil cream and onions cut with a milchig in the fleishig pot but I hadn't used it in 24 hours and this is a really expensive pot my grandmother left me and I've got guests coming in 2 hours. What do I do?" A good Rav will discuss the concepts of ben-yomo, d'var charif and shaas had'chak before coming to a conclusion. A simple one will just say "Oh, you cooked milk in a meat pot. It's trief."

"He was a vile human who justified segregation and opposed interracial marriage."

How interesting. I know of another religion which justifies slavery and outlaws interracial marriage!

S.,

I respect your opinion and am therefore interested in hearing a little more about what you think would improve orthodoxy. You seem to think increased structure is the right direction, but Orthodox leadership is really charedi gedolim. I'm not sure that having a bunch of guys who seem to have missed the intellectual developments of the past 1500 years lead us is a good thing. What are your thoughts?

I know of another religion which justifies slavery and outlaws interracial marriage!

Shhhh. The adults are speaking.

Yes, mom.

>I respect your opinion and am therefore interested in hearing a little more about what you think would improve orthodoxy. You seem to think increased structure is the right direction, but Orthodox leadership is really charedi gedolim. I'm not sure that having a bunch of guys who seem to have missed the intellectual developments of the past 1500 years lead us is a good thing. What are your thoughts?

Thanks. I didn't say that Orthodox leadership ought to be charedi, but realistically broad autonomy doesn't work so well in an orthodoxy. If you don't like an authoritarian sort of system, no one is forcing anyone to be Orthodox. But "every man his own posek" cannot make for a sustainable Orthodoxy simply because that erodes orthodoxy (note my shifts between capital and lower case "o").

The idea that an orthodoxy can exist without a hierarchy of leadership--even a loose one--is not realistic. Although the community *does* volunteer to practice halakhah, to do all the things Orthodox Jews do and there isn't any real coercive powers on the part of the leadership, such leadership who persuade the people to listen to them is a necessary condition of an orthodoxy; those who were not persuaded became non-Orthodox. True, there is no intrinsic reason why individuals will not voluntarily keep halakhah *and* reject rabbinic authority, but that's not going to work on a wide scale. What Shmarya is advocating on behalf of a revitalized Orthodoxy is essentially the end of Orthodoxy, apart for the individuals who will actually continue to be halakhic Jews without the yoke of rabbinic leadership.

In other words, S is saying Orthodoxy cannot stand sunlight. It's best to pull the shades, live with the problems as they are and continue on.

That is a recipe for disaster.

I didn't say that. Problems can and should be fixed. You were talking about everyone deciding what halakhah is for themselves, not about covering up child molestation.

Can Orthodoxy be as transparent as glass? No, and neither can the military, government, corporations or the New York Yankees.

But even allowing that what you say I'm saying is what I said (which it isn't). Let's say that's true.

How is your post a solution for Orthodoxy rather than a recipe for its dissolution? Yes, we can spout cliches; "an Orthodoxy like that doesn't deserve to exist," but seriously, do you really think that broad autonomy is a recipe for the revitalizing of an Orthodoxy? What about the fact that davka the opposite, the consolidation of rabbinic authority, over the past two generations has led to Orthodoxy's confidence and ascent in numbers and in influence?

I'm not saying that Orthodoxy is or isn't healthy or is or isn't yashar, but it was anemic 50 years ago in a pathetic, cringing sort of way that doesn't even remotely resemble what Orthodoxy looked like at the end of last century and today.

My "solution," such that it is, is to have literate Jews who know their "constitutional and criminal law." A society that knows this on the level of third graders cannot do anything other than follow leaders. But leaders increasingly know this stuff at high school level or college level, not at graduate level. And that makes them weak leaders.

Those weak leaders refuse to change. So what should be done?

I think leaving Orthodoxy is the best solution, but few will do that. So what should be done?

At least give the masses a fighting chance. Have them learn the halakhic ropes.

"I think leaving Orthodoxy is the best solution, but few will do that."

Speaking for myself, it's because I don't like the alternatives either. (Although I no longer consider myself Orthodox, but rather a modern-traditional Jew who leans towards Modern Orthodoxy philiosophically and Conservatism is praxis).

The Reform movement, as one wag pointed out, is just the Democratic Party with holidays. (Disclosure: I am conservative-libertarian Independent). Same is true for Reconstruction, Renewal, and Secular Humanist.

Conservatism has lost its moorings, and is evolving quickly into the traditionalist wing of Reform. The Karaites are not a viable option because they are miniscule- and you trade rabbinic mishegas for literalist mishegas.

Unless a new denomination opens up, I will take the same tack with religion as I do with politics and remain an Independent. But I am traditionalist Independent, and I think conservative Judaism is now kosher-style rather than kosher. (The old school conservative Judaism was more to my liking- but it is as dead as Generalissimo Franco on Saturday Night Live).

Rabbis have no powers anyways d'orisah and only rose to prominence after the fall of the bait hamikdash. Why give them any political authority at all?

Alex: There is no title of "rabbi" in Tanach, period. (However, it is in the New Testament, referring to Yushka, ironically enough). If people stopped listening to them, they would have no political power- the Wizard would be exposed from behind the curtain w/o any "Oz" (strength in Hebrew). From a spiritual p.o.v, rabbis have a role to play now that we don't have a kohen gadol. But as Lord Acton observed, power corrupts. That's why America is such a religious country compared to Europe- we have no state church and people can follow their consciences. I follow mine and only listen to rabbanim I respect. I don't give a roasted fart about what anyone else thinks about me- although I bear them no malice in my heart. Unfortunately, should I ever make aliya, the yiddishe ayatollahs would have an influence on my life. (That's if they let me. My maternal grandparents lived in a shtetl, spoke Yiddish, were chasidim in the Old Country, and were descended from the Taz- but how can I "prove" I'm Jewish?)

with all do respect Yochana, how do you know "from a spiritual point of view?" you have sensory organs to see beyond the four dimensions (length, width, depth, time) that human perception is limited to?

* With all due respect. (typo correction)

Alex: It's Yochanan- I am typographically challenged.

As for your question: "You have sensory organs to see beyond the four dimensions (length, width, depth, time) that human perception is limited to?"

I don't believe in mumbo jumbo bullshit, but I do believe we need leaders. For better, and often for worse, rabbis are what we've got. I use my limited human perception to see, hear, and read what they say and do. Those who are kind, judicious, and learned, and are not intellectually shallow or backward command my respect. The rest can go hang.

By "spiritual" I mean we should not be blind faith practitioners. We should cultivate a relationship with God and each other based on the covenant. Since most people can't do this on their own, they need teachers, guides,and institutional leaders (but not manipulative, authoritarian, charismatic gurus). Hence "from a spiritual pov"- spritual leaders. Was I that inarticulate? If so I apologize.

Anarchy is tempting, but it is a utopian ideology. It cannot work. So the question is what kind of leaders. Rabbis are what we've got- until a new paradigm replaces them. (Karaite chachamim are a similar counterpart). We should be an educated and interactive laity- and not the Jewish sheeple.

I think we are in agreement, but if not you still have my respect.

yochanan, we are in agreement. :-)

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