Haredim Stone MO Jews In Jerusalem

A Modern Orthodox guy drives with his family through a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem 20 minutes after Shabbat has ended. Haredi kids try to wreck the car by stringing rope across the street. (Remember the Burt Reynolds movie, The Longest Yard? Remember the very tall guy who played Lurch the butler on the Addams Family t.v. show? He clotheslines a guy in the Longest Yard, and then happily says, "I think I broke his f**king neck!" That is what these haredim tried to do to this MO guy's car.)

The MO guy sees the rope in time and narrowly averts impact. Then, a few days later on motzoie Shavuot, a few minutes after the holiday is over, the MO guy and his family drive through the same haredi neighborhood, down the same street. This time the haredi kids stone the car, breaking a window and narrowly missing one of the family.

A co-worker tells MO guy that the previous motzoie Shabbat, he drove that same route, did not see the rope in time, and damaged his car.

MO guy points out that the government closes that street, Rehov Yirmiyahu, at great inconvenience to the secular population, every Shabbat and holidays. This is what the haredim wanted. They got it. Why the rocks after Shabbos when the street has already been reopened to traffic? Why the clothesline? Where are these kids' parents? Their rabbis? Their neighbors and families?

What do you think? For my part, I think that much of the haredi world views non-haredim as somehow less Jewish, even as not Jewish at all. I've heard Jerusalem haredim actually say this about secular Jews, and I think this belief has become almost widespread in that community during the last few years as the community has radicalized even further in reaction to modernity pressing in on them from all sides. And non-Jews are little more than animals to some (note the word here: "some") of these haredim. That attitude is becoming even more pervasive.

It used to be rocks were thrown to "defend" Shabbos. Now they are thrown to "attack" "goyyim." The change in attitude may be subtle, but that change does not bode well for our future.

Jews who "defend" Shabbos by throwing rocks may not hate secular Jews. Jews who throw rocks to stake out turf, to push around "the goyyim," do hate other Jews.

What can be done about this? I really don't know. Do you? Do you have any suggestions? Readers?

Comments

[Garnel Ironheart]

I can think of two reasons the chareidi kids tried to vandalize this guy's car.
1) There are at least two definitions of when Shabbos ends, either 42 or 72 minutes after sunset. I'd hazard a guess that the Modern Orthodox guy holds by 42 minutes and was driving through the street after this time had elapsed, hence it was weekday for him. The chareidi kids, on the other hand, have been taught that Shabbos ends 72 minutes after sunset so for them it was still Shabbos. Hence their attempts to "protect" their neighbourhood from chilul Shabbos.
2) Chareidi kids, with some exceptions, are raised without any real parental supervision. The dad is in kollel all day learning and the mother is either breast feeding or working to support the family. The concept of two parents being actively involved in their kids lives is quite rare, leaving those children to run around the streets like wild animals, which they increasingly come to resemble. So they hear their parents calling all Jews, Orthodox or not, who are not JUST LIKE THEM, "animals", and they act on those thoughts.
The thought that there might be different opinions (42 vs 72 minutes) that are equally valid and that a person can observe something differently yet still within the bounds of halachah does not occur to them.

And not to sound cynical, but there's very little you can do about it. Their world view is based on the simple premise: "We're always right, you're always wrong". You can't change someone's mind or behaviour if he shuts you out the minute you try to do it.

[MO MAN]

It's high time we institute a "rock" bais din. Shmarya, do you know Mick Jagger?

[David]

Simple. Inform the community that any further events like this will result in the streets being reopened on Shabbos, together with an increased police presence, and vigorous prosecution of anyone who throws stones. Want to defend Shabbos? Don't throw rocks.

[Szender]

If the MO guy insists on driving through this neighborhood after shabbos is over, next time he and his family should come with paint guns and paint-ball the kids. They probably have never seen any other colors but black white and/or grey. Mida c'neged mida.

[Alex]

Noone gets arrested for religious motivated violence? Thats an outrage.

BTW- do you know how easily the modesty thing can be turned against the haredim? All one has to say that it is cruel for the haredim to force their women to wear such heavy clothing in the kind of climate that Isarel has. Indecent exposure is one thing, but taliban-judaism is going too far. And volah- mass arrests can be made for abuse.

Perhaps the secular Jews can use that line of resoning to counter haredi thugs.

PS As the US takes lessons from Israel on counterterrorism Israeli police should take lessons from the NYPD for police work.

[steve]

The chareidi kids, on the other hand, have been taught that Shabbos ends 72 minutes after sunset so for them it was still Shabbos

If it was still Shabbos for them, then how are they hurling stones? Stones are inherently muktzeh! Reminds me of the kid who tried to burn down an MO synagogue in Brooklyn about 15 years ago. It turns out that he once overheard his chareidi father saying "they ought to burn that place down" . All this hatred has been taught in the home and picked up from their environment. This is the same way the Arab children are taught to hate since childhood. I do not consider myself anti-chareidi or MO, but this violent behavior is despicable and needs to be condemned by all rabbis.

[rabbidw]

There is a war between the Chareidi and the MO but only the Chareidi are fighting. WhenElya Tzvei, (I will not dignify him with a title) called Rabbi Norman Lamm a "hater of God" no one screamed. Right now, when Amar is making the RCA bow down to him about qualifications to perform giyur, no one is shouting that he is making up the rules as he goes, that al pi halacha, a non musmach can do a giyur. What is the difference between what he is doing and tha Conservative movement changing the halachah to meet theis desires?
They do not recognize any contrary opinions. It is lucky that they did not live in the early middle ages as they would have put Rasi's grandchildren, the Ba'alei Tosfos, in cheirem for having the chutzpah to disagree with their illustrious grandfather.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Stones are inherently muktzeh!

The stones are set aside before שבת for the express purpose of preserving שמירת וכבוד השבת.

/I believe a bong and some pot would make this easier to understand

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Amar is making the RCA bow down to him about qualifications to perform giyur

Amar? Amar? Who is that? Oh, yeah. The "rabbi" who was "asleep" when a kidnap victim was hidden in his house

[TM]

Easy one. Arrest the kids and give them a non-criminal record (unless damage or harm is done in which case the record is criminal and deserving of punishment). At the age of 18, any Haredi child with a file must be conscripted and may not avoid military service. I'm confident this will end the misbehavior.

[ed]

>WhenElya Tzvei, (I will not dignify him with a title)

Signed by rabbidw

An anonymous attack on Rabbi Tzvei.

COWARD

[DK]

"I've heard Jerusalem haredim actually say this about secular Jews, and I think this belief has become almost widespread in that community during the last few years as the community has radicalized even further in reaction to modernity pressing in on them from all sides."

Is it modernity pressing in on them, or through their growth in numbers, density, and power, a feeling of strength and domination?

[Shmarya]

WhenElya Tzvei, (I will not dignify him with a title)

Signed by rabbidw

An anonymous attack on Rabbi Tzvei.

COWARD

Posted by: ed | May 30, 2007 at 08:07 PM

First of all, ed, you are anonymous and you attack people all the time.

I am not anonymous and, just to satify you, I'll post an "attack" on Elya Svei:

As instructed by Rabbi Avigdor Miller, an Askan calls for a meeting which takes place at the home of Rabbi Yakov Perlow (the Novominsker) and is attended by Rabbi Avrohom Pam, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, Rabbi Aharon Schechter, Rabbi Moshe Scheinerman, Rabbi Shia Fishman and Rabbi Yankel Bender. At this meeting, chaired by Rabbi Perlow, the Askan discusses what is transpiring to innocent boys at the hands of Rabbi pedophiles and requests that Torah Umesorah and the Rabbonim issue a statement calling for their removal from Chinuch. Rabbi Svei informs this Askan that Torah Umesorah has consulted their attorneys who advised that for Torah Umesorah to admit knowledge of such abuse would subject Torah Umesorah, its staff, all its member schools and their staff to liability for not having reported their knowledge to the authorities earlier. Accordingly, Rabbi Elya Svei informs the Askan, neither he nor Torah Umesorah will do anything about this problem.

JERK. And so are you, ed.

[shmuel s]

I just spent a week in jerusalem for shavuot on mea sharim street the heart of the chareadi community and did not see one bit of hatred to the MO jews. the walked the streets there just like everyone else. I even saw secular jews women in pants remained unharmed. I am not saying theses stories are lies but I just think You find isolated stories and make them the norm. P.S. everyone I saw weather modern or ultra orthodox kept 72 minutes. Please dont bash me for making an obsevation.

[shmuel s]

I just spent a week in jerusalem for shavuot on mea sharim street the heart of the chareadi community and did not see one bit of hatred to the MO jews. the walked the streets there just like everyone else. I even saw secular jews women in pants remained unharmed. I am not saying theses stories are lies but I just think You find isolated stories and make them the norm. P.S. everyone I saw weather modern or ultra orthodox kept 72 minutes. Please dont bash me for making an obsevation.

[Yochanan Lavie]

N.U. writes

The stones are set aside before שבת for the express purpose of preserving שמירת וכבוד השבת.

That reminds me of a joke. While setting aside stones for shabbat, some bochurim were rolling huge boulders. When asked why so large, they explained they held by the opinions of the Chazon Ish.

[rabbidw]

To Ed, whoever you may be. The last time I attacked Elya tzvei, I was subject to two weeks of anonymous 3:00 AM phone calls. I did not even mind, I thought it was funny, but my wife got upset. More important, I have a cousin with the same name, and it would not be fair to put him through that. But your argument is fraudulent. Are you denying that Tzvei said what I quoted him as saying? Do you think he said it and was justified in his position? Or is your only gripe that I am a cowardly cur, and that in itself justifies Tzvei?

[Alex]

DK said "in reaction to modernity pressing in on them from all sides."

DK- congradulations on using one of the supposed justifications of Islamic fundamentialists to hurt people to justify haredi violence.

A thug is a thug is a thug. Thats it.

Do you think that bin laden was right for blowing up the twin towers because women in New York don't cover every micron of their bodies the way women do in Islamic countries?

[Alex]

oh shit sorry DK I just remembered 1 little thing from your postand attacked! lol

[Alex]

but my point still stands for people who may think that violence is because of encroaching modernity, rather its because of encroaching religiosity.