Putin Moves To Censor Internet

The DrudgeReport reports:

President Vladimir Putin has decreed the creation of a new super-agency to regulate media and the Internet, sparking fears among Russian journalists of a bid to extend tight publishing controls to the relatively free Web.

Putin signed a decree to create one entity that will license broadcasters, newspapers and Web sites and oversee their editorial content.

Raf Shakirov, who was dismissed as editor of the Izvestiya daily after critical coverage of the 2004 Beslan school siege, tells REUTERS how Putin's decree could extend Soviet-style controls to Russia's online media, which have been relatively free to date.

"This is an attempt to put everything under control, not only electronic media, but also personal data about people such as bloggers," he said.

I can't say this loudly enough: Chabad's backing of Putin has helped him stay in office even as he has systematically destroyed freedom. Never forget this.

Comments

[Noach Smith - www.Pilegesh.org]

B"H
What will happen if Rabbi Lazar Shlit"a stops "backing" Putin? Russian people will immidiatly depose Putin and create American style democracy in Russia?
You can't have it both ways when it is convinient for you, you magnify Chabad's power as if you literally believe that Lubavitcher Rebbe is G-d and His shluchim are ministering angels wth powers to appoint and remove world leaders at will... and when it is convinient for you, you present Chabad as lacking power it simply depends what point you are trying to make...

[Noach Smith - www.Pilegesh.org]

B"H
What will happen if Rabbi Lazar Shlit"a stops "backing" Putin? Russian people will immidiatly depose Putin and create American style democracy in Russia?
You can't have it both ways when it is convinient for you, you magnify Chabad's power as if you literally believe that Lubavitcher Rebbe is G-d and His shluchim are ministering angels wth powers to appoint and remove world leaders at will... and when it is convinient for you, you present Chabad as lacking power it simply depends what point you are trying to make...

[TM]

Seriously, what kind of bullshit are you peddling? Hmmmm...let's see what blaming Chabad for Putin resembles...

I know! It reminds me of those Nazis who blamed Communism on Jews. It reminds me of those neo-Nazis who blame Stalinism on the Jews. It reminds me of those who blame American foreign policy on the Jews.

Get a grip Shmarya, it's one thing to have a vendetta and mission against improprieties within the Jewish community, and it's another thing to out-Stormfront Stormfront.

[Shmarya]

It's time you "got a grip." Did you read the linked piece? Do you know the history of this? Of course not. But you're right there to tell me I should get a grip. Do your homework. Read this to start:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2005/12/haaretz_how_cha.html

The entire Ha'aretz exposé is there. Read it.

[TM]

I read the "report" before posting my comment and I've reread it now to see if I missed something. I didn't.

I'm sorry but it is patently ridiculous to assert that 1. Putin is in place because of some small Jewish sect (for which I have no great love, by the way), or 2. That one rich Jew together with a Jewish religious leader would have had enough influence or money to put Putin into place or to keep him in place. If that's true, than any of the oligarchs could have had their little puppet placed in power. 3. That if Putin wants to return Russia to 25 years ago by restricting media, Internet or killing reporters, that this small Jewish sect is even remotely related to this story.

Really, whatever you need to know about Putin and his power rests in what he's done to Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He doesn't need Leviev, or some supposed influence on a bill in Washington, and he didn't need them in 2000 either. Nobody comes to power without many elements of support, and this was certainly true of Russia. Nobody stays in power because of one person's or small group's support either. Chabad Russia may have supported and helped Putin just as they would have any leader who to some degree controls their fate. That's still a great distance from saying "Chabad's backing of Putin has helped him stay in office." The most this Ha'aretz article PROVES is that Lazar and Leviev had a direct line to Putin. Big deal, so did many others.

Really, you're so locked into your attack mode that you're not even recognizing how you often fall into conspiracy mode.

[Shmarya]

You don't read well, do you? Oligarch. Know what that means? Who put Putin in power?

You write: "Really, whatever you need to know about Putin and his power rests in what he's done to Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He doesn't need Leviev, or some supposed influence on a bill in Washington, and he didn't need them in 2000 either. Nobody comes to power without many elements of support, and this was certainly true of Russia. Nobody stays in power because of one person's or small group's support either."

Many leaders came into power with the support of small groups and kept that power through military force and/or corruption. Histroy is full of examples of this.

[TM]

Of course, and with so many conspiracy theories, it's always the Jews who make up these small groups that put evil into power and support it. Right?

We're discussing Russia? Let's see...

Lenin? Jews!
Stalin? Jews!
Putin? Jews!

Wow. Just makes ya wanna put those Hebes in concentration camps.

Did I miss something?

[Shmarya]

You missed a lot. Start by learning a little modern Russian history.

[TM]

Oh yes, modern Russian history with it's open antisemitism, refuseniks and political activists in Siberia and arming of the Arab world to attack Israel. Jews, Jews, Jews!

One area where I've learned quite a bit about modern Russian history is in debates with neo-Nazis and white supremacists, or people who are influenced by their views, trying to justify what Hitler and the Nazis did to the Jews by making similar claims to yours. Simply replace "Putin" with "Stalin" and you'll see what I mean.

Is your next post going to be about Chabad and International Finance?

[TM]

"its open antisemitism"

[Shmarya]

You really don't know what you're talking about. Read up on it a little.

As for your "Jew, Jews, Jews!" slur, it just sahows that it's much easier for you to name-call than it is for you to actually deal with fact.

[TM]

Shmarya, how is what you're saying different than what David Duke is saying?

http://www.davidduke.com/general/the-attack-on-putin_261.html

Why don't you answer his points instead of telling him to read something else.

You made a charge, he challenged it, now back it up.

Why is it any different than all the other antisemetic cancards of all generations?

Also, should Iranian Jews openly criticize Ahmedinijad?

That was directed to Shmaraya.

[anonymous]

The stupidity continues, if you really believe that Putin's being in office has anything to do with the support of any religious group. Russia is not America. You need the backing there of the criminals, former apparitchiks and KGB.

[Shmarya]

Look, try to process. Chabad did exactly what I said it did. Unlike you, I actually have good contacts in Israeli leadership,, and in other places. What Ha'aretz wrote is correct.

Now, how is this different from what David Duke says? It's one minute before Shabbos. I'll try to read what he wrote after Shabbos. But the point is, if what he wrote is the truth, is it somehow possel (negated) because he's an antisemite?

Please. Deal with fact, not the fantasy Jewish world you want to be living in.

[TM]

Do you think that any of your readers, or I for that matter, are impressed when you tell me to "learn to process" or "read up on it a little?" If so, you should know that this is a clear indication of your confusion and implies that you may be just as confused or wrong about the many other claims you make on your site.

As for the "good contacts" story, I have bad news for you: the Shin Bet and Israeli Military Intelligence are in constant disagreement. You know why? Because everybody has a viewpoint and even people with the relevant intelligence sitting on their desk cannot always achieve the right conclusions. By the way, I have met many "well connected" Israelis who know diddly squat about most things but make big noises as if they do. These are the guys who end up losing wars to Hizbullah, by the way.

Read the Duke piece and you'll find that you and he share a great deal regarding your Jewish conspiracies. You'll also see my point about white supremacists using the classic Jew-behind-the-power-accusation, in this case with respect to the very same Russian leaders I point out above but also with Putin.

Instead of trying to stand your ground on this quicksand, why don't you take a long and deep breath, reconsider the implication that a small group of observant Jews, even when backed by a wealthy observant Jew, could place Putin into the leadership of a huge state such as Russia (or any country outside of Israel), and move on. I'm serious. Silly stuff like this undermines the credibility you'd like to have earned with your other posts and efforts.

[Shmarya]

You simply don't understand politics or history. You don't like my bluntness? Sorry. You seem tto think there's a mitzva to view everything as equal and move to the middle as a result. You're wrong and, if you look at history, you'll see that approach never works.

[Shmarya]

One more thing. You write: "Read the Duke piece and you'll find that you and he share a great deal regarding your Jewish conspiracies. You'll also see my point about
white supremacists using the classic Jew-behind-the-power-accusation, in this case with respect to the very same Russian leaders I point out above but also with Putin."

Point 1: If something is true, and both David Duke and I report it, do I then become a racist bigot? Please. Your immaturity of thought here is telling.

Point 2: Oligarchs. Don't know how this works? Again, try learning.

[TM]

I assume you are making the comment about the mitzva to seeing everything as equal because I go by The Middle? I don't think everything is equal. I think people with extreme viewpoints are generally wrong. Their extremism blinds them. I also think people who latch on to conspiracy theories tend to have some deep-seated emotional issues and are wrong because they are blinded to facts and reality no less than the extremists. However, I make it a point to provide evidence and make a case for my viewpoint. If I can't make it, I back off.

That's not at issue here. What's at issue is your - I'll be blunt as well - idiotic claim that a small Jewish sect with the support of a wealthy Jewish supporter put a man like Putin at the head of the Russian government.

First of all, Lev Leviev was known and well-connected but wasn't considered a player in the big leagues of Russian Oligarchs in 1999-2000. He certainly wasn't considered one of the influential oligarchs because his base was outside Russia and because he wasn't as wealthy as some other players, and his wealth did not derive from control of Russian assets to the degree theirs did.

Second, to prove your claims, you'd have to show that Leviev would have had deep influence over Yeltsin, since it was Yeltsin who appointed Putin to premier and supported him as successor. The Western media didn't think that Leviev was among the oligarchs who influenced Yeltsin. Of the influential oligarchs - and assuming the media reports are correct, something historians will determine - half were indeed Jewish (Khodorkovski isn't Jewish and never considered himself Jewish) and half weren't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/692297.stm

Third, these powerful oligarchs were not backers of Chabad which was essentially the Federation. Leviev was. Rather, Gusinsky, who was a powerful oligarch and who may have wielded influence on Yeltsin, supported the RJC, a completely different - and many would say a competing - leading Jewish organization. Khodorkovsky's business partner, Nevzlin, also supported the RJC and headed it for a while. In '02, Mikhail Fridman, another powerful oligarch, was appointed the RJC's new head.

Fourth, within a few months of winning the election in 2000, Putin was busy getting rid of Gusinsky. A couple of years later Khodorkovsky and his partner were in jail and on the run in Israel, respectively. Boy, oh boy, what power those Jews have!

Fifth, considering that Leviev, a Chabad and Federation supporter, didn't have a strong relationship with Yeltsin and that it was Yeltsin who effectively appointed Putin. Also considering that Gusinsky, Nevzlin (and Fridman) did have a strong relationship with Yeltsin but were destroyed by Putin very soon after he came into power, can you see how flawed your argument is?

If that doesn't do it for you, take a deep breath (since you didn't do it the first time I suggested it) and consider that when you read the above, what you're seeing is not Chabad influencing the Kremlin but rather that Putin identifies certain powerful Jews as affiliated with the RJC and figures out that weakening the RJC and strengthening Chabad's Federation hurts non-Kremlin powers in Russia - the oligarchs and the institutions they control - and gives him power over the Jewish community because the Federation becomes better able to raise funds and spend them.

In other words, Shmarya, what happened is precisely the opposite of what you propose - Chabad needed and need Putin and he strengthens their hand, not the other way around. Why would he do this? It's easier to wield indirect control over the Jewish community and its center of gravity when you support the group that controls most of its resources. It also weakens the most powerful Jews around, the so-called "oligarchs."

If Chabad supports Putin, it is because they need him, and it is not their support that buys him power. They are in his pocket, not the other way around.

Now, the David Dukes of the world, of course, cannot imagine a situation where the unseen hand of Jews does not control the non-Jewish leadership. Apparently, neither can you. You should, however, because your claims are false.

To conclude, contrary to your assertion, a Russian gentile is very much in control of Russia and where it is headed. He did not need and does not need Jewish support to get him what he wants. He certainly doesn't need Chabad. Chabad needs him, not the other way around.

I had written a long response to your Point 1 and 2, but upon re-reading, prefer to avoid the personal attacks. I will simply ask you to consider carefully what your site looks like to those who don't have the tools to distinguish between fact and supposition, and who may not be able to discern that your attacks on some shitheads do not amount to attacks on all Jews.

[Shmarya]

Again, you're simply foolish. This is not a "consipracy theory." And you clearly have no idea how politics in Washington work, especially with regard to Russia.

I suggest you learn. The very fact that Yossi Melman – who certainly is a far bigger expert that you – documented Chabad's role in this should mean something to you. It does not, because, despite your pretentions, you don't know enough to realize what this means.

[Shmarya]

Process: "But there is also a different version of the course of events, one that is less innocent than Rabbi Lazar's account. This version maintains that Abramovich, who had business ties with Leviev, recruited the Israeli diamond merchant for a struggle on behalf of Putin and against Gusinsky. In return, Leviev received the support of Putin, who in 2000 was elected president of Russia. That support made it possible for Lazar to receive Russian citizenship in record time and to be recognized in practice as the chief rabbi of Russian Jewry. Shayevich was shunted to the sidelines.

The Jewish "federation" of Lazar and Leviev became the darling of the government. This was clearly manifested when President Putin took part in a resplendent ceremony to dedicate the FEOR center in the Marina Roscha neighborhood in 2001.

A plaque at the entrance to the building lists the donors. They include Leviev, his partner Gaydamak, Slutsker and other oligarchs. But at the top of the list is Abramovich. He donated $5 million for the construction of the building. Lazar and FEOR left REK. In 2002 Gusinsky was forced to leave Russia and then to sell his assets there. The authorities launched an investigation against him for tax violations.…

The success of Lazar and Leviev can be attributed to the fact that Putin used them in his struggle against Gusinsky and received a Jewish "umbrella" from them in return. But another reason for the close ties between the Putin government and FEOR lies in the promises made by Leviev and Lazar that they would make their connections available to Putin and assist the Kremlin to open doors in the corridors of power in Washington. Most importantly, they let Putin and his aides understand that their influence and lobbying would bring about the abolition of a 1974 Congressional amendment to the Trade Reform Act sponsored by Senator Henry Jackson and Representative Charles Vanik, both Democrats. Putin is deeply distressed by this legislation, which stipulates that countries, such as the former Soviet Union, which restrict freedom of movement and prevent the free emigration of their citizens will not receive special trade benefits from the United States. "

[Shmarya]

The "umbrella" Yossi Melman refers to would be called a "beard" or "cover" in American English. It means Chabad will make Putin look pure so he can get certain things from the US government. In return, Putin give Leviev access and gives Lazar and Chabad control over the Jewish community of the FSU. And this is in fact what happened, and what is still taking place today.

[Zalary TypePad Support]

test post

[Shmarya]

test post.

[TM]

Shmarya, if you re-read what you quoted from Melman, you will note that it agrees with my version and not yours. Putin doesn't come into power thanks to Chabad, but uses them against powerful Jews. Melman may not mention the RJC directly, but clearly that is where the powerful Jews he's trying to destroy place their energies.

In other words, your claim that Chabad put Putin into power is rendered incorrect. You try to cover up by using the "umbrella" assertion of Melman's, claiming that it's a cover or a beard for work in the US on behalf of the Russian government. You would like us to believe that Chabad is Putin's little undercover mole influencing the US as part of Putin's master-plan. After all, some of us who live here have no clue, according to you, how the US government decides things while Putin does and his ace in the hole would be...Chabad.

First of all, thanks for once again telling us that Jews-behind-the-power control things. It's not just you and David Duke who believe this, according to you Putin does as well (don't worry, you're in good company in this regard, just read Walt & Mearsheimer's crappy paper).

Second, to whom does Putin go to influence the mighty US government, according to Shmarya? Chabad.

Why Chabad? So Failed Messiah can accuse them of being the power behind Putin! I mean, let's be honest here, if one wants to get bills passed in DC, Chabad wouldn't be the lobby group or even the Jewish lobby group one would approach unless one had no clue how the US government works. At best they would be one of a number of voices. But if that's the case, why would Putin put all of his eggs in Chabad's basket? He didn't with respect to Jackson-Vanik and that hurts Melman's assertions and yours.

Let's take a look at the Jackson-Vanik Trade Reform Act:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/98-545.pdf

Now, indeed, there has been lobbying to repeal this Act since 2001, and Jews have been conscripted to help fight his battle not because Jews run DC but primarily because Jews had asked for this Act in the first place back in the '70s to encourage Russia to open its doors which were locked to Jewish emigres.

In fact, the very same group that initiated discussions over that bill in the '70s is the one heading the Jewish parties who are fighting for giving Russia a permanent waiver: the National Council of Soviet Jewry (NCSJ). Take a look at this report about fighting for Ukraine's waiver and note who is mentioned (not Chabad) and who isn't mentioned (Chabad). The very same groups have been leading the debate to allow Russia a permanenet waiver:

http://www.brama.com/news/press/2005/11/051107ucca_jackson-vanik-yekhanurov.html

While it's true that Putin MAY HAVE tried to use Chabad to take a significant role in the charge, as you can see (between the lines) in this article from 2001:

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/111401JTA.shtml

It didn't work too well because they were still at it the next year, when NCSJ took a leading role again:

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/Legacy/trade/107cong/4-11-02/107-64final.htm#luks

[TM]

(cont.)

And by the way, who did Bush write to in 2001 regarding his support for the waiver? Not Chabad but the NCSJ:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5565-8.cfm

Now the NCSJ is not run by Chabad and while respecting their power and proximity to Putin, is not planning to allow them to do Putin's bidding.

http://www.forward.com/articles/moscow-moves-to-install-chabad-ally-as-top-rabbi-1/

Still, just to prove the entire premise about Chabad's influence is silly - or that of any Jewish group - by 2007 the waiver has still not been granted to Russia despite annual requests by Bush's administration and the (apparent - I couldn't find sources except the ones I linked that show Chabad was involved) backing of Chabad and definitely the NCSJ and Bnai Brith.

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012006AP_JV.shtml

In other words, Chabad hasn't delivered. It hasn't delivered because it was never able to deliver. Even if Putin had been naive enough to think they could deliver, something that is highly unlikely for a well connected former KGB spy, by 2002 Putin would have known this. Melman might have known this as well if he hadn't gotten his info (and I'm guessing here, but you'll admit it's a good guess) from some opponent to Chabad Russia like, say, somebody from the RJC. Still, Putin continues to PLAY Chabad because they are useful "idiots," not because they strengthen his rule.

And just to put all of this into perspective for you, Shmarya, Putin laughs at Chabad the way he laughs at everybody. How do I know this? Because Chabad was so upset and frustrated with the Kremlin that they sued the Kremlin...and even convinced some US politicians to bring up their cause:

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012005Rice_Schneerson.shtml

Boy, oh boy, what power those Chabadniks wield in the dark corridors of the Kremlin and the US Congress. That puppet of theirs, Putin, has no clue how to survive without them. They must be the source of his ascent to power, his holding on to power, and to his never-ending generosity to the Jewish people.

Or perhaps they're just another Jewish group doing their best to survive and in this case, taking advantage of the opening Putin has given them to have a direct link to the power center of Russia?

TM

[TypePad Support - Zalary]

This is a test. Copied from the previous comment. Please delete.

And by the way, who did Bush write to in 2001 regarding his support for the waiver? Not Chabad but the NCSJ:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5565-8.cfm

Now the NCSJ is not run by Chabad and while respecting their power and proximity to Putin, is not planning to allow them to do Putin's bidding.

http://www.forward.com/articles/moscow-moves-to-install-chabad-ally-as-top-rabbi-1/

Still, just to prove the entire premise about Chabad's influence is silly - or that of any Jewish group - by 2007 the waiver has still not been granted to Russia despite annual requests by Bush's administration and the (apparent - I couldn't find sources except the ones I linked that show Chabad was involved) backing of Chabad and definitely the NCSJ and Bnai Brith.

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012006AP_JV.shtml

In other words, Chabad hasn't delivered. It hasn't delivered because it was never able to deliver. Even if Putin had been naive enough to think they could deliver, something that is highly unlikely for a well connected former KGB spy, by 2002 Putin would have known this. Melman might have known this as well if he hadn't gotten his info (and I'm guessing here, but you'll admit it's a good guess) from some opponent to Chabad Russia like, say, somebody from the RJC. Still, Putin continues to PLAY Chabad because they are useful "idiots," not because they strengthen his rule.

And just to put all of this into perspective for you, Shmarya, Putin laughs at Chabad the way he laughs at everybody. How do I know this? Because Chabad was so upset and frustrated with the Kremlin that they sued the Kremlin...and even convinced some US politicians to bring up their cause:

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012005Rice_Schneerson.shtml

Boy, oh boy, what power those Chabadniks wield in the dark corridors of the Kremlin and the US Congress. That puppet of theirs, Putin, has no clue how to survive without them. They must be the source of his ascent to power, his holding on to power, and to his never-ending generosity to the Jewish people.

Or perhaps they're just another Jewish group doing their best to survive and in this case, taking advantage of the opening Putin has given them to have a direct link to the power center of Russia?

[TypePad Support - Zalary]

And by the way, who did Bush write to in 2001 regarding his support for the waiver? Not Chabad but the NCSJ:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5565-8.cfm

Now the NCSJ is not run by Chabad and while respecting their power and proximity to Putin, is not planning to allow them to do Putin's bidding.

http://www.forward.com/articles/moscow-moves-to-install-chabad-ally-as-top-rabbi-1/

Still, just to prove the entire premise about Chabad's influence is silly - or that of any Jewish group - by 2007 the waiver has still not been granted to Russia despite annual requests by Bush's administration and the (apparent - I couldn't find sources except the ones I linked that show Chabad was involved) backing of Chabad and definitely the NCSJ and Bnai Brith.

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012006AP_JV.shtml

In other words, Chabad hasn't delivered. It hasn't delivered because it was never able to deliver. Even if Putin had been naive enough to think they could deliver, something that is highly unlikely for a well connected former KGB spy, by 2002 Putin would have known this. Melman might have known this as well if he hadn't gotten his info (and I'm guessing here, but you'll admit it's a good guess) from some opponent to Chabad Russia like, say, somebody from the RJC. Still, Putin continues to PLAY Chabad because they are useful "idiots," not because they strengthen his rule.

And just to put all of this into perspective for you, Shmarya, Putin laughs at Chabad the way he laughs at everybody. How do I know this? Because Chabad was so upset and frustrated with the Kremlin that they sued the Kremlin...and even convinced some US politicians to bring up their cause:

http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/012005Rice_Schneerson.shtml

Boy, oh boy, what power those Chabadniks wield in the dark corridors of the Kremlin and the US Congress. That puppet of theirs, Putin, has no clue how to survive without them. They must be the source of his ascent to power, his holding on to power, and to his never-ending generosity to the Jewish people.

Or perhaps they're just another Jewish group doing their best to survive and in this case, taking advantage of the opening Putin has given them to have a direct link to the power center of Russia?

http://typepad.com

[Shmarya]

TM –

You just don't get it at all. Leviev and Lazar were brought in by other Jewish oilgarchs. They backed Putin against Berezofsky's cadidate. Chabad got Russia as a pay off for that and for its work in Washington for Putin, especially working to repeal Jakson - Vannik.

This is really very simple.

For you to conflate the long-standing (pre-Putin) suit over Chabad's library (Not filed by Lazar, BTW) with this issue, or to write that Bush spoke to the NCSJ, only belies your complete ignorance of Jewish politics and Washington politics.

But, heck, you're in the middle, right? And the middle is always right – no matter how foolish or ignorant that middle happens to be. So be contented with your erudition.

Now, process: Name some Jewish leaders you know, have personally met and done business with. Ask them about Lazar and Putin.

The ones I met, worked with and dealt with don't argue much with what I write about Chabad and Russia. What do is add their own horror stories. Maybe I'll post some of them, even though you'll call me David Duke for doing it.

[TM]

You realize that I keep providing you with links to information that contests what you say and your response is to continue to claim that I don't understand, don't have a clue, don't know the right people, etc. Fair enough. Any reader here has the ability to go through my links and logic and compare them to your claims.

[Shmarya]

You don't understand the linked material. You mention, for example, the Chabad lawsuit for the library. Who filed that? Chabad in CALIFORNIA. Not Chabad in Russia. There are several loosly afilliated Chabad organizations all under the Chaabd umbrella. What is noteworthy is Lazar's lack of involvement in that lawsuit.

Bush spoke to the Union of Councils re: the library? So what? Chabad in America lobbied hard to get the Union of Councils (then headed by an old friend of mine, BTW) to push for the books release. They did so, and made it a major item on their agenda. What would have Bush do? Not mention it at the UCSJ?

When I point out that you don't understand, these are trhe types of things I mean.

[TM]

Tsk tsk, you're not reading the links but criticizing them?
Bush isn't talking about the books in the link I provided. He's talking about the waiver from Jackson Vanik, and he's talking to the NCSJ and not Chabad. That tells you all you need to know.

I assume you're also not reading the other links because you have carefully avoided my points about the RJC and the NCSJ. Is that because I didn't understand? LOL

So your claim is that the mighty and powerful hand (Chabad) behind the man (Putin), is so weak and disorganized that its Russian and US operations don't really talk? Or is it your claim that the mighty Lazar and his Russia Chabad have so LITTLE clout that even knowing that a franchise in the US Chabad was going to sue Russia, they still remain silent and have absolutely no impact on solving the problem? I mean, if Lazar can't even stop a Chabad outpost from suing the Kremlin, how is he going to help Putin achieve anything.

Anyway, Chabad LA is far from a small outpost. They are a strong and very rich arm of Chabad. You'd be happy to know, for example, that they're good friends with Lev Leviev who was given an award from Chabad LA by the very lawyer representing them against the Kremlin. http://www.chabad.com/site/c.eeJNIWOzErH/b.1986731/apps/nl/content3.asp?content_id=%7B8D12EC49-CB1E-406F-B767-6CE4A57CB286%7D&notoc=1

Finally, just to prove you completely wrong, I'll point you to this article: http://www.chabad.com/site/c.eeJNIWOzErH/b.1986737/apps/nl/content3.asp?content_id=%7B7389BA0C-658F-46C7-BE3E-2D48FC7747BF%7D&notoc=1 about Isaac Kogan of Chabad in Moscow AND of the LA Chabad. Read it carefully to see who is mentioned and then, take a look at this meeting (it's a cached search, so scroll down to see highlighted words) before the Senate. http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:9wGJBET__mEJ:www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/digest2005/d06AP051.txt+alschuler+chabad&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

Who was there? Isaac Kogan...of Chabad in Moscow and Chabad in LA.

Is there anything else I don't understand?

[Shmarya]

My point is that you are ignorant both of history and politics, and you don't know it.

As for Yitzchak Kogan, I guess your ignorance of internal Chabad politics (much as your ignorance of Jewish politics and American politics) will suffice for those who know. Kogan was there before Lazar, he's a refusenik hero, and he's a messianist. He's not Lazars deputy. Cunin who runs LA is also a messianist. Now arfe you getting it?

[TM]

Shmarya, it's funny to see you shamelessly ignore your errors or outing that you haven't even bothered to read the links I've provided as evidence.

In any case, other than calling me ignorant - which you do very well - you still haven't shown how Chabad wields any power with Putin, put Putin into power, have effectively lobbied for him in the US or shown anything that merits your claims.

The internal rifts you bring up, for example, go further to prove my point, not yours. The point you made was, "the Chabad lawsuit for the library. Who filed that? Chabad in CALIFORNIA. Not Chabad in Russia. There are several loosly afilliated Chabad organizations all under the Chaabd umbrella." I responded by making three points: 1. If Lazar can't even get other Chabadchiks to do something for Putin, what use is he on the much bigger issues? 2. The LA Chabad wasn't some minor weak offshoot but capable of getting access to the Senate and connected to Leviev. 3. At least one of the LA Chabad's key members straddled both LA and Moscow, regardless of internal frictions, so that Lazar had direct access to him. It also shows this wasn't some trick from half a world away as you implied but rather by a long-term Russian Chabadnik with supposedly direct orders from the Rebbe to save his library.

I guess in the world you inhabit, when someone makes points and backs them up with evidence, you debate by claiming they're ignorant instead of actually responding. No worries, so far you've convinced me of one thing: you are absolutely wrong about the influence of Chabad over Putin, or that their support is seriously meaningful to his reign.

[Shmarya]

I repeat, you don't understand the politics at all. All of Chabad wants the books, even Lazar. Lazar doesn't make a stink about it because of Putin. Lazar and his allies ask for the repeal of Jackson-Vannik, and Chabad goes along with him, in hopes the repeal will free the books, among other things.

The points you think you're making are no points at all. You do not understand Chabad, Orthodoxy, Jewish politics or how Washington works. You think you do? Fine. Live your delusion. Eventually you'll discover the truth – in this case, probably when all hell breaks loose in the FSU, God forbid.

[Shmarya]

"In any case, other than calling me ignorant - which you do very well - you still haven't shown how Chabad wields any power with Putin, put Putin into power, have effectively lobbied for him in the US or shown anything that merits your claims."

I'll repeat it again, you're ignorance is astounding.

How did Shayevitch and Goldschmidt get marginalized? How about the RJC? Putin did this. For Lazar. To get Lazar to do things for him, like pimp him to visiting US Congessmen and human rights activists, which Lazar regularly does, and to pimp Putin in Washington, which Lazar does, as well.

Putin remains in power in part because of the cover Lazzar gave him early in his reign. Lazar pleaded in Washington for Putin, and Chabad joined in that pleading. Putin rewarded Chabad for it.

The US was misled by what Lazar and Chabad did, and woke up to the real threat Putin poses far too late.

You can't process that? Fine. Seek help.

[TM]

It was fun, Shmarya. Take care.

[Itzhak Schier]

I lived in Moscow for 13 years and have zero respect for Lazar. He is a farkoifte loser who is in a position about ten miles above his little head. He shuddered in fear when he saw me on the corner of President and Kingston because he knows I've got a file on him and connections with others in CH and on shlichus who have far bigger files.

But TM is right. Shmarya, the tail does not wag the dog. Lazar is a pimple on the dog's (Putin's) tail, not even the tail.

And Rabbi Cunin is not a meshichist last time I checked, which was at a recent family simcha. Cunin can't stand Lazar, and respect for my dear friend (much as I don't agree with his position vis: yechi) Reb Yitzchak Kogan prohibits me from going into his complex relationship with Lazar.

Also, please do not forget that Berezovsky is a thug and a meshummad. As strange as Putin is, a Berezovsky or Khodorkovsky chosen leader would be far worse. Think Ahmadinejad, or Chavez. Finally, Mr Shayevitch is a former KGB informant whose only qualification is that of a train motorman. Pinchas Goldschmidt is the son and son in law of wealthy businessmen and does little for the community. If he were anything, he could have taken over big time as when he came, Chabad had no funding and he had Reichmann behind him. The only non-Chabad institution of value in Moscow is Rabbi Lebel's yeshiva, but it is out of town and has little influence on those who do not study there.

Hopefully, Putin will stand down in 2008 as he promised, and Russia will move further toward openness as the old generation who wants a powerful autocrat dies off. Then, Lazar and Leviev (and Rohr for that matter) will quietly fade from the scene and a new leadership will clean up the mistakes, mostly intentional, made by the Lazar cabal in Moscow.

The one thing that Or Avner did do right is to appoint decent, hard-working shluchim to remote and smaller cities. The main problem is in Moscow itself.

[Shmarya]

"Mr Shayevitch is a former KGB informant whose only qualification is that of a train motorman.

This is false.

"Pinchas Goldschmidt … does little for the community."

He's only limited by the constraints put on him by Lazar's thugs.

As for Lazar the pimple, that pimple sreves a key purpose for Putin – and Putin's backers.

[Itzhak Schier]

Do you count the bit of time that Shayevitch spent in the Communist era Neolog seminary as a valid qualification? I don't - all he probably learned there was how to file reports on refuseniks and underground activists. The man can barely read a siddur. I sat across from him once when I was in Archipova and saw for myself. He was a known moiser during Communist times - not the worst of the worst but a stukach nevertheless.

Goldschmidt had his time to get things going when Lazar had nothing, back in 1991 and 1992 and even into the mid-90's. Lazar is not a mouse, he is a worm. Goldschmidt is even less as he did have the money and power to crush Lazar at one time and instead he just sat there like a peacock on a throne paid for by his family. And the yeshiva I mentioned functions quietly and outside the limelight by choice, not because of fear of Lazar. It is a Brisker yeshiva and behaves accordingly.

Lazar is no one to Putin - the real deal is Lavayov, about whom I don't care to speak because I don't want to end up face down in a ditch before he does. Vehamayvin yavin.

"known moiser during communist times...", known "fact"? to whom? what right gives to attack someone else that way? that allows the same for shmarya to claim that so and so is a moiser for being a puppet to a wicked individual who sells the weaponry to srael's worse enemies (some of which destroyed israel's tank in the past summer?

[Itzhak Schier]

I have no problem with someone calling Lazar a moiser. I have called him far worse to his ugly face. However, he is just a very unimportant and very replaceable little cog in Putin's wheel.

However, having lived in Moscow I spoke to many people from the old Chabadnitza in Archipova, and the consensus was that Shayevich was indeed a moiser, although not the worst of the worst. He would not have had his position during Communist times if he were not a moiser.

I don't want to bother him, but there is an old mesiras nefesh Yid and Gulag veteran from Moscow whom I know very well and who now lives here, and I am positive he would have even unkinder things to say about Shayevich.